How important is it for her to Speak English

[Momus]

Turbo, I completely disagree that, in most cases, the man and woman bear equal responsibility in this. Okay, a feminist would probably rip me a new one over this, but I'm not talking in generalizations here.

I can understand and forgive a woman in the FSU for losing her grip on reality and surrendering to the dream. She often has real reasons for real desperation. She is often much younger and (presumably, though one wonders) has less life experience than the man. She is almost always less traveled and almost certainly has never been to America, so has absolutely no clue what to expect. And, in most cases, she's depending on the damn guy to make responsible decisions and not completely *snip* up her life.

The man? No excuses. Absolutely none. In his case, he's ignoring and neglecting these responsibilities for only one reason that I can see: He just has to have what he wants, right now, and to hell with the risks.

[Turboguy]

Momus, you have shown a lot of common sense and wisdom in your posts.  If I said they bore equal responsability in my post I don't remember it.  I guess I could go back and look, but I have not at this point. 

As far as your comment that there are no excuses for the man.  My thoughts on that are that your statement assumes the man is to blame.   That is frequently not the case.  Take the case of Maxx, and to be honest, I have only heard Maxx's side of the story but that being true and I think it is he tried hard to make a good life, just picked a bad girl.   If you have been reading Maxx's tale of the girl with the diary, it is another case of the guy trying to do everything right and the gal being in the wrong.  The biggest mistake a lot of the men make is either ignoring red flags or choosing to overlook them because they think they are in love.  That is a mistake I made that I don't intend to repeat.

I can agree that there are cases where a guy brings a naive young girl over and does not do what it takes to make the relationship work, and yes, I may even call that guy a bad guy.  He really should not have ever been in this. 

We have people on both sides that have a dream.  Perhaps sometimes it is more of a fantasy.  If two people give it their best shots and try hard to make it work and it does not, perhaps because they did not know each other well enough then to me they are not bad people.   They are just people who made a mistake.  They are people who did not realize what real world life is like with an FSU woman and people who may have been mislead by the agency hype.

[catzenmouse]

Momus,

 Would you mind taking a stab at drafting up a suitable commandment regarding the man's responsibility? Perhaps use one of the existing ones and add onto it or you can look here:

http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=1744.0

 We had started to revise the commandments and still need to finish this up. Your input would be most welcome.

Ken

[Momus]

I think they have both deluded themselves with agency hype and fantasy.   I think they are both dreaming of a happy life and to me that does not make them bad people. 

Turbo, I interpreted the above to mean that you felt both parties were equally responsible. If that is not the correct interpretation, I apologize, though I hope you will understand how I might have gotten that impression.

In any case, this is not about assigning "blame" for a relationship that doesn't work out. This is about acting irresponsibly during the development of that relationship, regardless of whether it ends up working out or not. In my view, if a grown man proposes to a woman and brings her to a foreign country after knowing her for a week, he's acting irresponsibly. If a grown man proposes to a woman without being able to effectively communicate with her one-on-one, he's acting irresponsibly.

Now that I've cleared that up, I'll use one of the cases you cited as an example. I'm not going to talk about Maxx, because he's a member of this community and I'd like to get in the habit of expressing my opinions and views without calling anyone out by name.

However, of course Gary was negligent and irresponsible! Jesus Fucking Christ! He proposed to the woman after FIVE DAYS, Turbo! In this case, the price of his irresponsibility was a lot higher for him than it was for her. It could easily have been different (e.g., Myke Conroy). I feel bad for what happened to him. That doesn't change the fact that I consider his proposing to a woman he doesn't even know to be unethical, negligent, and irresponsible. Again, the issue isn't about who is "to blame" for a fucked up relationship. It's about who bears the weight of responsibility for making sure two people aren't rushing into a fucked up relationship. Can you really not see the distinction, here?

[Momus]

Momus,

 Would you mind taking a stab at drafting up a suitable commandment regarding the man's responsibility? Perhaps use one of the existing ones and add onto it or you can look here:

Hey Ken,

How about this...

Do not be a loser, be a man: Understand that in every action you take and every decision you make in this endeavor, you are taking responsibility for not only your own life but that of another human being as well. Always treat this obligation with the respect and consideration it demands.

This is of course open to the community to modify as it sees fit, perhaps toning down the harshness of the language. I'm a little worked up.
Maybe stick it under the "Don't rush" commandment.

[PeeWee]

Turbo, I completely disagree that, in most cases, the man and woman bear equal responsibility in this. Okay, a feminist would probably rip me a new one over this, but I'm not talking in generalizations here.

I can understand and forgive a woman in the FSU for losing her grip on reality and surrendering to the dream. She often has real reasons for real desperation. She is often much younger and (presumably, though one wonders) has less life experience than the man. She is almost always less traveled and almost certainly has never been to America, so has absolutely no clue what to expect. And, in most cases, she's depending on the damn guy to make responsible decisions and not completely *snip* up her life.

The man? No excuses. Absolutely none. In his case, he's ignoring and neglecting these responsibilities for only one reason that I can see: He just has to have what he wants, right now, and to hell with the risks.

I am following your logic, Momus, but I do think that unless the woman has too many stars in her eyes, and a perceptive man should see that in her, that if she is an intelligent woman than she can be realistic about her desire to move from her home to be with a man that she believes is her love.

How about a woman whom is in her early 40s and has traveled countless times to both Western Europe and the US? Or a woman who is so well read that she knows about such things as local government, laws, current events...etc. Or a woman who has traveled extensivly in Western Europe, lived in Western Europe, an intellegent woman who has had 4 or 5 proposals of marriage from men in such places as Australia, US, Belgium...and so forth, rich men but she has told them all that is not enough for her because she does not want a way out of Russia for the sake of money or relocation but has put love and friendship as her highest priority. There are those women and I do think that they are being very realistic about their expectations. Which ever man they meet will have to bring more to the table than simply a ticket out of Eastern Europe and promise of things that seem like a dream to her.

Peewee








 

[groovlstk]

However, of course Gary was negligent and irresponsible! Jesus *snip*ing Christ! He proposed to the woman after FIVE DAYS, Turbo! In this case, the price of his irresponsibility was a lot higher for him than it was for her. It could easily have been different (e.g., Myke Conroy). I feel bad for what happened to him. That doesn't change the fact that I consider his proposing to a woman he doesn't even know to be unethical, negligent, and irresponsible. Again, the issue isn't about who is "to blame" for a *snip*ed up relationship. It's about who bears the weight of responsibility for making sure two people aren't rushing into a *snip*ed up relationship. Can you really not see the distinction, here?

Without knowledge of the intimate details of this situation, I'd warn lurkers with no experience with FSU women that blaming Gary may be convenient, but quite honestly it might not have made any difference if he'd spent a few months with her before proposing, rather than a week. A GCG is a distinct species, and Gary's woman obviously had one goal in mind and was willing to do anything to achieve it. There's no playbook for dealing with a GCG, as she'll do anything to get what she wants, and her first order of business is making sure her man has no idea of her true goal. It's a mistake to read about his experience and think, "oh, that's where he messed up!, I'd never do that!"

[PeeWee]

Without knowledge of the intimate details of this situation, I'd warn lurkers with no experience with FSU women that blaming Gary may be convenient, but quite honestly it might not have made any difference if he'd spent a few months with her before proposing, rather than a week. A GCG is a distinct species, and Gary's woman obviously had one goal in mind and was willing to do anything to achieve it. There's no playbook for dealing with a GCG, as she'll do anything to get what she wants, and her first order of business is making sure her man has no idea of her true goal. It's a mistake to read about his experience and think, "oh, that's where he messed up!, I'd never do that!"

Good point, groover. Something I need to remember.

Peewee

[Momus]

How about a woman whom is in her early 40s and has traveled countless times to both Western Europe and the US? Or a woman who is so well read that she knows about such things as local government, laws, current events...etc. Or a woman who has traveled extensivly in Western Europe, lived in Western Europe, an intellegent woman who has had 4 or 5 proposals of marriage from men in such places as Australia, US, Belgium...and so forth, rich men but she has told them all that is not enough for her because she does not want a way out of Russia for the sake of money or relocation but has put love and friendship as her highest priority. There are those women and I do think that they are being very realistic about their expectations. Which ever man they meet will have to bring more to the table than simply a ticket out of Eastern Europe and promise of things that seem like a dream to her.

As I said, Peewee, "In most cases." What percentage of the women involved in this business do you believe match the above description? What percentage of the women we've read about in the trainwreck stories here and elsewhere do you believe match the above description?

And why is it that seemingly everytime someone expresses a view here, someone else has to come along and insist, "Not always! There are exceptions!" Yes, sometimes she is honest and everything will be fine if you send her money. Yes, sometimes it really is True Love and you'll live happily ever after. Yes, sometimes you won't actually need a backup plan. Yes, sometimes she really is attracted to fat bald men twice her age. All true, I suppose. My only question is, so what?

[Momus]

Without knowledge of the intimate details of this situation, I'd warn lurkers with no experience with FSU women that blaming Gary may be convenient, but quite honestly it might not have made any difference if he'd spent a few months with her before proposing, rather than a week.

Okay, I'll try this one more time, then I'm done. I'm starting to feel like the Aflac duck!  ???

I am not blaming Gary for the outcome of his relationship. I am not blaming him for what the GCG did to him.

I am expressing my view, again, that proposing to a woman he did not and could not know after FIVE DAYS was unethical, irresponsible, and negligent, regardless of the actual outcome.

[jb]

Without a doubt, Gary made horrendous judgement errors.  That part is glaringly obvious. 

This is one of the things we've, the OMBs, been preaching since day 1, proposing marriage after 5 days face-to-face is hardly sound decision making at it's best.  I'm sure if you'd said something to that effect to Gary when he filed the I-129F, he'd have had a dozen reasons why his case was different.  They all do; I can't count the number of times I've read, "but,,, our romance is special", only to read later that the guy is back again, looking for another dream girl because the other relationship went tits-up on him.  Remember Photoguy?  He'll be back sooner or later, either giving his old fling another go, or looking for a new one.

The only difference between Gary and the others is that Gary went the distance and bit the big one.

[Turboguy]

Momus, I will agree that it was but even though we know that, it happens lots of times every day.   I am sure that there are a lot of crash and burn stories from the one week wonders but sometimes it does work and no mater what we think we are not going to have a lot of impact on how men search for an FSU woman or conduct themselves when the find one.  

Good post jb

[Momus]

Momus, I will agree that it was but even though we know that, it happens lots of times every day.   I am sure that there are a lot of crash and burn stories from the one week wonders but sometimes it does work [...]

Aflac! 

[catzenmouse]

As I said, Peewee, "In most cases." What percentage of the women involved in this business do you believe match the above description? What percentage of the women we've read about in the trainwreck stories here and elsewhere do you believe match the above description?

Not very damn many! That is one of those things that a great deal of members just do not get the point of.

And why is it that seemingly everytime someone expresses a view here, someone else has to come along and insist, "Not always! There are exceptions!" Yes, sometimes she is honest and everything will be fine if you send her money. Yes, sometimes it really is True Love and you'll live happily ever after. Yes, sometimes you won't actually need a backup plan. Yes, sometimes she really is attracted to fat bald men twice her age. All true, I suppose. My only question is, so what?

That is just part of the culture of the posters, not just here but in all parts of the international marriage thing. Too many will find a loophole and kill themselves reaching for it just to make a point. Yes, Every Situation Is Unique! But, we are not talking about unique 99% of the time. We are talking about the usual suspects and the usual situations.

Yes, very on point post jb!

Ken

[PeeWee]

As I said, Peewee, "In most cases." What percentage of the women involved in this business do you believe match the above description? What percentage of the women we've read about in the trainwreck stories here and elsewhere do you believe match the above description?

And why is it that seemingly everytime someone expresses a view here, someone else has to come along and insist, "Not always! There are exceptions!" Yes, sometimes she is honest and everything will be fine if you send her money. Yes, sometimes it really is True Love and you'll live happily ever after. Yes, sometimes you won't actually need a backup plan. Yes, sometimes she really is attracted to fat bald men twice her age. All true, I suppose. My only question is, so what?

Not many meet those descriptions but they do exsist. I have met those three plus one other who saved enough money to pay for her travel to the US, two years at Brown, and all of her living expenses. So that is four and I did not look that hard to find them. My point is that I did look and I did find. Why not have a few higher requirements such as language skills, decent job, good heart, brains...etc? Rather than seek out the bimbo as some guys seem to have the talent for. Have a plan, work the plan, have some standards and don't fall for the first pretty face that tells you that you are better than even Brad Pitt himself.

Peewee

[wiz]

How about this...

In your quest in finding happiness do not be a loser, be a man!

Understand that in every action you take and every decision you make in this endeavour, you are taking responsibility for not only your own life but that of another human being as well. Always treat this obligation with the respect and consideration it demands.

Momus

Just read all your comments and I must say it is excellent advice for everybody.

[Son of Clyde]

jb, I think Photo Guy learned from his experience and I am sure he will proceed with caution the next time. Maybe there are more horror stories than successes because of limited face time but this is not to say a few don't work out. Doug & Olga Salem are working on 7 years of marriage and Olga was one of hundreds of women he wrote to. He almost did not consider her because of the 20 year age difference. From what I remember, speaking with Doug, he did not make many trips to see Olga. Since he went the WMVM route, how much time was at his disposal for any one woman?

[BC]

SOC,

I have never heard Doug & Olga Salems story.

If they met, could not communicate, got married 5 minutes later and have been married 7 years good for them.

Picking out a rare exception as example will never help the masses, in fact it will only mislead them, causing much more harm than good.

[PeeWee]

SOC,

I have never heard Doug & Olga Salems story.

If they met, could not communicate, got married 5 minutes later and have been married 7 years good for them.

Picking out a rare exception as example will never help the masses, in fact it will only mislead them, causing much more harm than good.

I have a hard time with this logic, BC. To run a 4 minute mile was unheard of until someone did it, now everyone does it. The first man to run the 4 minute mile was the exeception to be sure but it did happen. So why not find out why Doug and Olga were sucessful and then apply the process to the masses? If one can do it then many should be able to do it. Yes? We have far to may negative thinkers that maybe could benefit from a little positive "can do", rather than "can't do," reinforcement being introduced into their daily thoughts. Anything can and will happen for any reason to anyone anytime and anywhere. There is not limit to this process. One week wonders do work and they don't work. Same as the reverse. Many long thought our courtships ended in divorce as well.

Peewee

[Leslie]

I could not agree more BC.  

Coming up with an example case where rushing into marriage led to happily ever after, is like pointing to a guy who died of old age at the age of 92 despite smoking 2 packs a day for nearly 80 years.  Freaking rare  

Does it mean that smoking 2 packs a day all your life won't kill you?  Ask the Marlboro man...

People know smoking damages their health and that there is a good chance it will kill them.  The attitude of "it won't happen to me" prevails and they carry on smoking.

Same logic applies to people propose/accept marriage to a virtual stranger.  They KNOW it is wrong.  They KNOW it could likely end in disaster for both of them but carry on regardless with the same attitude of "it won't happen to me" .

This is why I have no sympathy for these people.  Particularly when it all goes wrong and they post a "sob story" on the boards looking for support.  

[PeeWee]

I could not agree more BC.  

Coming up with an example case where rushing into marriage led to happily ever after, is like pointing to a guy who died of old age at the age of 92 despite smoking 2 packs a day for nearly 80 years.  Freaking rare  

Does it mean that smoking 2 packs a day all your life won't kill you?  Ask the Marlboro man...

People know smoking damages their health and that there is a good chance it will kill them.  The attitude of "it won't happen to me" prevails and they carry on smoking.

Same logic applies to people propose/accept marriage to a virtual stranger.  They KNOW it is wrong.  They KNOW it could likely end in disaster for both of them but carry on regardless with the same attitude of "it won't happen to me" .

This is why I have no sympathy for these people.  Particularly when it all goes wrong and they post a "sob story" on the boards looking for support.  

While I agree with you, Leslie, I too subcribe to the adage that we "reap what we sew." If we are to agree with, I think it was Elen or Wild Orchid, these foreign marriages, by in large, are by definition "arranged marriages". As such the rules of what we would consider to be a "normal" courtship and eventual marriage are different.

Because it is different then different processes and logic is applied. The "in face time" is shorter hence the "quick read" has to be relied on more. Luck plays into it as well. The odds of success are lower as a result but we guys have to know that going into this. Decisions are more hasty because the distance and because of the time constraints. There never will be enough time to come to know her in these situations. This is a wing and a prayer process, at best. Those are the rules that apply here. That is why the One Week Wonders are sometimes as successful as the Ten Year Ploders. I see it working successfully for both.

Peewee

Peewee

[Bruno]

I have a hard time with this logic
...
So why not find out why Doug and Olga were sucessful and then apply the process to the masses? If one can do it then many should be able to do it. Yes?

No !!!

Not every men is Doug and not every women are Olga...

Like in sport, everybody have his own speciality... universal recept to hapiness don't exist... you need to create your own recept for yourself... the fact that a second human is involved in relationship make thing make difficult... a little like in relay course, you result is not only related to yourself ( husband ) but to your buddy ( wife ) who relay you...

[Son of Clyde]

The smoking analogy reminds me of the story of a pregnant woman who smoked 8  packs of cigarettes a day. Her doctor told her if she continued smoking, her baby would be marked. Surely after the baby was born right at the end of it's spine it had a little butt.

[Doug S]

Some corrections...

I only wrote to 55 women, about 40 of which lived in countries of the FSU. I bought the addresses of about 100 women, with the intent of writing to all of them, but never got that far. I used the snail mail technique that is described (and offered) on my wife, Olga's web site as the "Snail Mail Campaign."

Because I wrote my letters out by hand and personalized them for each woman, I was sending them out in waves of only about 10 per week. Because I am such a stud (actually, because I picked the women realistically), I ultimately received replies from about seven of every ten (a.k.a. “70% reply rate”).

But because of the lag time of a snail mail campaign to the FSU, those replies did not start showing up in my mailbox until almost exactly one month after I sent my first letter. (Note that my first letter to my now-wife, Olga, was in the very first batch of ten I sent out.). I did not belong to any Internet discussion groups about Russian women, did not have a clue about the “Russian Mail Order Bride” industry, and did not know and had not heard of a single American man who had married a Russian woman. I lived in a bubble.

The web site from which I purchased the women’s addresses (Kiss.com), which I believe is no longer in business, did not specialize exclusively in Russian women. Rather they offered contact information for women from countries all over the world. Experiencing a rare period of freedom with regards to “significant others,” I was trying “international dating” via the mail on a whim, just to see what might happen.

I was 41 years old and had been single since I was 31. Prior to that I was married to an American woman from the South for seven years. Bitterly divorced, but with no children and no baggage other than the initial hit of losing everything but my shirt (and including my mind). During that ten year period I was involved with and dated lots of American women. Most averaged about ten years younger than me, and most were babes. But when each and every one of inevitably them got around to the subject of happily ever after and reproducing, my knees would begin to wobble. I could not picture myself married to any of them, nor fathering children with them.

On the other hand, I was 41, had gotten all of my ya-yas out (lots of exotic destinations, lots of waves, lots of women) and very much wanted to settle down and be a Dad before it became too late for me to attract a suitable mate. Having proved a lot after my divorce, I wanted to take on what I had come to appreciate as life’s ultimate macho challenge and measure of a man – husbandry and fatherhood.

Now back to the letters….

I wrote to Olga, Natasha, Maria, Yoshiko, etc., etc. on a whim. Told them essentially what I just told you – that I was ready; and I asked them if they were ready, too. Ready for someone like me. After all; Kiss.com had presented them as “interested in marriage.” Seemed straightforward enough of a deal to me.

But after a month of no waves, lots of paddling out but nothing coming in, I decided I had better reconcile myself to the fact that I had probably been taken in by a lonely hearts scam. They had got the hundred or so dollars I paid for the addresses. And then there was the hundred or so more I spent on getting a bunch of photos of myself printed, postage, and International Postal Reply Coupons.

O.K., so they got me and I got myself. No big deal. Many a time I had spent more in one night trying to figure out what almost always ended up being the wrong American woman for me. Maybe I’ll just send letters to the remaining 50 women/addresses since I bought them and had a system going, just in case she’s out there somewhere. Needle in a haystack. And then if nothing, oh, well. Guess it’ll be back to the drawing board for me. Back into the local game.  Maybe I’ll just go out of this life as a lonely old geezer on a longboard; having accomplished nothing more than a lot of superficial and short-lived conquests.

About two days after I decided to give up on “international dating,” my mailbox became stuffed with snail mail replies from exotic women in distant lands. Most sent photos, too. I was overwhelmed. At that point I had sent out 55 letters. The remaining 45 would now have to wait until I could answer the mail on these. And they kept coming and coming. Overall, I got about a 70% reply rate. And although I found that, after reading through all of the replies and seeing the updated photos, I was only interested in about 50% of that 70%; I still had my hands full. I was overwhelmed.

It took me a full six months to whittle those correspondences down to a short list of five potentials. One in Latvia, two in Ukraine, one in Belarus, and one in Brazil. During that period, I exchanged at least six letters in each direction, and as many telephone conversations, with each of those five women. (Not to mention the three or so letters and telephone conversations I had with the other 15-pus women while slowly but methodically eliminating them - or they me.)

By the time I got down to visiting my now-wife, Olga; we had been through a lot together. On paper and the telephone. And as a result, we both felt like we knew a lot about each other; at least, enough not to eliminate the other as a potential mate for life, and enough to warrant the time and expense of a visit.

Olga spoke no English and I no Russian. I paid (dearly) for good, accurate translation and interpretation of our letters and conversations. We all three of us worked very hard during that six months (Olga, our translator/interpreter, and me). And then again for another six months during the period after I visited Olga, while we were waiting for the K-1 and both wondering if we were doing the right thing.

(We did not relax as if it was a done deal, as many do - gloating over their good fortune of having found each other and merely counting out time until she comes to America. Rather we continued vetting each other. We both realized the seriousness of our undertaking – reading the fine print on a K-1 application is pretty sobering).

By the time Olga and I met in person, we already knew a lot about each other. I already knew more about Olga than I did about my first wife. (So intent was I on not screwing this one up, that my barrage of questions was almost unfair to the younger and less-jaded Olga.) The two weeks Olga and I spent together in Ukraine was also very rich in terms of communication and learning even more about each other. I stayed with her family in their apartment. I ate meals at the family table with them. I met Olga’s friends. I saw where she grew up – her father proudly gave me tours of the kindergarten and elementary schools she had attended. I sat through a big family argument. The water went off for almost the whole week I was there. It was real life. I got into Olga’s being.

So, both before and after my visit, we wrote and wrote, and talked and talked. Good communication does not come easily. We still have all of our letters in a box in the garage marked “Love Letters.” They amount to approximately a half-a ream of paper; maybe 250 sheets or so. They should make interesting reading for our daughter, Lana someday. Our translator/interpreter probably bought a new car that year.

But it was money well spent. We are very happy. About the only thing anybody on this board has said about us since I left here that is accurate is that Olga and I have been married for seven years now. And that we now have a child together – Lana May Salem, 18 months old and every bit as delightful as her mother. Also, yes, I was initially skeptical of Olga because of her age. She is 20 years younger than I am. At the time, she was a mere 21 to my 41. She was the youngest woman on my short-list. Most were about 28-30.

Olga only knew a few words of English when she arrived in America, but she did understand some. She did not hide in our apartment for the first year. She was just shy; that's all. She still is. Nobody in LA speaks English anyway. She began attending ESL and Art classes at the local community college as soon as 10 days after she "got off the boat," and continued for five years until she got pregnant, usually taking a full load of 12 units, and progressing through ESL, AML ("American Language," more advanced than ESL) and finally to American college-level English - English 101. (The academic equivalent of TOEFL.) Once Olga's English reading and writing skills got good enough, she branched out into college level "general ed" classes like Economics, Psychology, etc.; and earned a certificate in Computer Graphics - all at community college. After our daughter is older, Olga plans to return to a State University, matriculate her Ukranian degree in "Pedagogy" and her community college units, and try to get an American Bachelors degree in somethiing. She wants to be a career counselor.

Member Leslie wrote the most meaningful and informed response to the original “language” question of this thread. It sounds as if he has good experience with it. I agree with him wholeheartedly. English skills are not important in selecting a foreign wife – not her English, nor yours. Probably better if she doesn’t speak any English yet. I have noticed that most of the yet-unmarried Russian women who do have real attitudes.

What’s important is communication skills, whether you use sign language, smoke signals, charades, whatever. So long as you establish a system and work very, very hard at it. The other thing that is essential is restraint. Don’t rush in. Be skeptical. Both of you. And don’t resent the women for being skeptical of you. – It’s a sign of intelligence and the makings of a good life partner.

DS

[Leslie]

PeeWee,

You just went from mild irritant to troll in a single post.   You are one of the guys on this board who talks a lot (over a 1100 posts) but says very little.

If you post sh@t I will tell you it stinks!

“snip” these foreign marriages, by in large, are by definition "arranged marriages".

Do you know ANYONE who is in an arranged marriage.  I am fewkin certain you do not!  I have personal friends who are Hindu and are in arranged marriages.  These marriages are crafted with so much care.  Divorce is not possible.  The families and their children must live with the consequences of their chouces for the rest of their lives.

Your comparison of this process to people in MOB is complete and utter rubbish.

As such the rules of what we would consider to be a "normal" courtship and eventual marriage are different.

No they are not.  You are twisting reality to justify this bullsh@t argument -

Because it is different then different processes and logic is applied. The "in face time" is shorter hence the "quick read" has to be relied on more. Luck plays into it as well. The odds of success are lower as a result but we guys have to know that going into this. Decisions are more hasty because the distance and because of the time constraints.

This is not just bollocks.  It is evil minded bollocks crafted by you to justify unacceptable, bad behaviour.

There never will be enough time to come to know her in these situations.

How about living together for 5 months in Ukraine and 4 months in UK.  This is what I did.  I certainly knew my wife well enough when I proposed marriage.  So did JB, KenC, BC, Conner, Bruce etc.  The list of married guys is very long.  Two guys in process now (Michelangelo and Groovlstk) are taking their time and putting in the effort to get to know their girlfriends.  Posting advice like this is dangerous and shows just how much of a loser you are!

This is a wing and a prayer process, at best. Those are the rules that apply here. That is why the One Week Wonders are sometimes as successful as the Ten Year Ploders. I see it working successfully for both.

YOU ARE WRONG  The one week wonders and the sex tourists very rarely build successful marriages.  The guys who take this process seriously and carefully are the successful group.   


If you continue to post puerile rubbish like this,  I will open a thread in No Holds Barred.  You might get away with posting like this on another board but here if you post like a troll and you will be roasted like one….