How important is it for her to Speak English

[wiz]

Before make comment, try to clean before your own door...

You complain about abbreviations but you use them yourself... Why have you type "PS" in place of "post scriptum"... and in your last post, you use two time the term "FSU" in place of "Former Soviet Union"...

At the extreme, why you write "You can't sleep" in place of "You cannot sleep"

Everybody use abbreviation, and yourself too !!!

I do not use many abbreviations but the very few I use are very well known, like PS and FSU.

About the Grammar Can't and cannot..........suggest you ask another English person if it is correct grammar or not!

[Turboguy]

Wiz, I apolgize for my use of WMVM.  This is a pretty common phrase in the forums but sometimes I forget you are a novice.

[wiz]

I have already done more work than you and any 35 year old here put together.

Thanks for the compliment Turbo but I am 61 years old and still doing part time work. Started working since I was 12, going to school at the same time and then University. That was the result of WWII and the poor state of my family and of my country! I never counted the working hours in my life. If a job has to be done I go on and on till I finish, that is why I have 2 free days now.......needed to make some shopping for my presents to Olga, book ticket, car, parking and get ready. For the past 35 years in the UK was starting work at 6 AM and finishing at 10 -11 PM. Now is time to rest.....

I am glad that you did not take offence of my comments and I liked the tone and the way you replied.

I also liked the fact that you used very few Abbreviations, which makes reading more pleasant in my view. By the way I know those boards but don't bother visiting.......most subjects posted there are also talked and debated here too and many of our members posting there also.

Hope you get better soon and travel to Ukraine.

Peewee

I started my post with the expression

"I can only guess........"

My post was not only humour but also half serious and Turbo took it a such!

[Bruno]

I do not use many abbreviations but the very few I use are very well known, like PS and FSU.

About the Grammar Can't and cannot..........suggest you ask another English person if it is correct grammar or not!

Wiz, i was jooking... partially 

You are enough new on these forum but people who are here from 6 month or more know very good what mean WOVO or other variation...

Over the "can't" and "cannot", it is something used by everybody but it have remember me when i have learn English... It was more easy for me to understand "cannot" that "can't"... this can maybe become a advise for guy who write to Russian women with a medium or low level of English... write the full word and not the abbreviation... "it is not true" can be more easily translate but a RW that "it isn't true"... My own english is enough bad but i am sure that it is equal to the level of a RW who say that she have a level 5/10...

In any case, at the grammar level, "can't" and "cannot" are correct... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contraction_%28grammar%29#English ... the first one is a contraction of the second one... but the second one is more easy to understand for people who have not the english language like first language...

My point is very simple... contraction or abbreviation exist in English but for ease your foreign girlfriend don't use them... of course, on a US forum, it's something normal to use them, you need to adapt...

[Bruno]

For the past 35 years in the UK was starting work at 6 AM and finishing at 10 -11 PM. Now is time to rest.....

Perfect since RW don't like too much work-alcohlic... in the long term relationship... it is the main reason why i have stop a very good pay work to one where i have lower income but only 38 hours work by week... 

[Zhena]

Perfect since RW don't like too much work-alcohlic..

ROFL

[Bruno]

ROFL

It can seem funny but i know a couple ( man from Belgium, woman from Siberia ) who have real famillial problem... the man is lawer and same the week-end or the lare evening, he is working with his laptop computer... I have work one year ( in black ) like gardener for these people... after few month, the 3 children have call me "father" since they see me more that the real father... it is a good couple but they have very few time together... and i can say that the man is lucky... if the wife was Belgium citizen, she was all long away... the wife have not a easy character ( very strong ) but she accept more that a Belgium women.

Myself, i have a simple life but several member here are busy almost 100 hours week for the work... not everybody is ready to accept this...

[Turboguy]

A lot of American women are not too happy about that either.  Some want the income that working that hard can bring but want to feel important like the man devotes his time to her.  I am sure many from the FSU are the same.

[SANDRO43]

In any case, at the grammar level, "can't" and "cannot" are correct... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contraction_%28grammar%29#English

Yes, but as your Wikipedia quote says further on :

It is not acceptable in formal written English to use contractions such as "I've" or "can't."

What happened is that colloquialisms (speech habits) have slipped massively into written English because people write (and read) much less and watch TV much more than of old, and also because recent times have been privileging CONTENT over FORM (a VERY old debate, dating back to Plato and Aristotle), as if you could really separate the two : together they give you STYLE.

[Vaughn]

A lot of American women are not too happy about that either.  Some want the income that working that hard can bring but want to feel important like the man devotes his time to her.  I am sure many from the FSU are the same.

 You're darn tootin' they are - and hence the need for a common
language. Turbo, I'm going to teach you two new phrases every week,
beginning right now. Ten Years - sheeesh! You've got some cramming
to do....

You were on my mind all day...\

Ты была в моих мыслях весь день

Tee bwi-LAH vmai-EEKH MWEES-lakh vyes dyen.

Commit that to memory, or I'll put you back on Ignore.

Vaughn

[PeeWee]

Peewee

I started my post with the expression

"I can only guess........"

My post was not only humour but also half serious and Turbo took it a such!

I must be getting the idea with regard to humor. I expected it was but I was not sure. Back in the day I would have not even thought to ask, I would  have reacted instead.

Peewee

[Turboguy]

OK Vaughn, Deal,  Maybe we should have a new section to teach each other Russian,

PeeWee,   I think sometimes we have a hard time separating humor and serious.   I know some of my humor has been taken too seriously by some too.   I guess we all just have to take our chances.

[Vaughn]

OK Vaughn, Deal,  Maybe we should have a new section to teach each other Russian,

That's crossed my mind more than once. Even for a guy courting
(or married to) a FSU lady who speaks good English, I submit she
loves to hear her man speak a little of her tongue. My own wife
loves my PA-USA accent, and is tickled with my grammar and
ending errors. I'm far too old now to imagine ever being fluent,
but imagine this: how'd you like to be able to tell your future
wife's mother "Don't worry, Ma, I'll take good care of her" in
words she can understand? I never saw it as fair to expect her
family to take on English to accomodate me, nor did I feel it OK
to allow a language breakdown between me and her loved ones.
But that's just me - as much as I love my wife, I also cherish the
real connection with her family - and verbal ability, even if limited,
enhances that.

  As we were about to depart Yoshkar-Ola for keeps, an old man
showed up at the station, wearing a long coat and hat. He was
introduced to me as Lenara's paternal grandfather, and the guilt
that I felt in ripping his beloved vnuchka (granddaughter) away
from him overwhelmed me. We took a short walk and I was able
to assure him in Russian that she would be in good hands, would
realize new opportunities, and I vowed she would return to visit
his side of the family each and every summer - a promise I have
fulfilled. With tears in his eyes he thanked me and we hugged.
That moment would not have been as significant with a terp
hanging on my shoulder. While it's very true that the lady will
need English to survive, the man's ability, however limited, is
admired by immediate family - and my case, by my wife as well.
The study and practice pays such dividends.

[Turboguy]

I agree with that Vaughn.  My first trip to anywhere in Eastern Europe was to meet a gal in the Czech republic.  A few weeks before I left I found a tape learning course in our local library and learned maybe 15 words in Czech.   They all got a bang out of that and every relative we visited they had me showing off my 15 words.  It was fun.

I have had the same with the Russian I know.  They really seem to get a kick out of it out of me speaking Russian.  I have to admit it made me feel good when I rode an elevator down to the lobby in Kiev.  A gal got in talking on a cell phone in Russian and I shocked myself in that I understood every word she was saying.  Maybe there is hopes for me after all.  I can still use help.

[SANDRO43]

Fellows, when you speak (or try to speak)  to a foreigner in his/her native language, the unspoken message that you get across is : I consider you and your culture not inferior to mine, and worth the effort of learning your language to attempt to communicate with you on equal terms.

Of course, you can also use that ability for more practical purposes. In large Italian cities you can often see Moroccan windshield washers lurking in ambush at major intersections and jumping you when you have to stop for the red light. When this happens to me, I start chatting up the guy in the limited Arabic I know : he is so astonished and pleased at being addressed in his own language that I can drive away with my windshield unscathed by the time the traffic light turns to green .

[Photo Guy]

I think Vaughn's Russian language course is a fantastic idea. That should be
its own thread if it isn't already.

For KenC:  I wrote: 4- My one course of action   had very little to do with separation
due to health problems.

My point is that I have been told that the way I have gone about finding
a Ukrainian wife, has been foolish and risky.  I have conceded and already
admitted to those risks, however, the way my story went with Larisa, had
very little to do with the course of action that I followed. The end result had
very little to do with visiting only one woman in Ukraine. The end result had
very little to do with her bad English.

Her decision to
withhold her thoughts regarding her father's bad health, had nothing to do
with her bad English. The same is true regarding her own health.  A woman
with good or bad language skills may decide to NOT tell you about her
two rotten teeth and may instead direct your attention to a rosy romance.
generic example: Your woman may decide not tell you that most of her family tree died of
cancer in their fifties. 

Finding a woman with better language skills may have minimized the risks. No doubt.
However, one woman is not another woman. In other words, I could have traded
Larisa for an Olga that speaks great English, but Olga would never have the
special lovable qualitites that I found in Larisa. I am not looking for just any
woman for marriage. She has to be a very special lady. I continue to think that
Larisa is a keeper.  It could have gone either way. It was a very difficult decision
when she flew home, answering the request of her parents. She was torn.

If I had gone about it differently, yes I would have met the parents, and established their
confidence in me. I've already stated that. I have to disagree with the idea that
my course of action was doomed to fail. I have read quite a few stories about
guys who have had major problems when his woman decides she does not
want to be in the West and for various reasons.

If you remove the health problems, Larisa may well have stayed here in the US.
So it was a fine line between her staying and going back. A very fine line
between alleged 'success' or 'failure'.  She was very determined to learn English
and that attitude seems to be discounted and overlooked here at RWD. Why?  -doug 

[BC]

Doug,

Of course we don't want to rehash it all again or?

To keep things a little on topic, a question to you:

Had Larissa been able to speak and understand English (or you Russian for that matter) do you think it would have been easier for you two to discuss the aspects outside your relationship that could affect it in the future? 

I remember having quite a bit of hypothetical discussions with my wife regarding our respective parents, their health and implications for the future.  Another example is that we discussed our different styles of discipline and how we would handle our kids, how we wanted them to have the best of both worlds, education etc etc etc..

To what extent were you able to discuss such things?

[Doug S]

Bruno touched on something worth talking about here - work ethic. Russian vs. Western, especially Russian vs. AMERICAN.

We work a lot harder here in America, but the Russian women don't come to understand that until it is too late.

With much of their notions about life in America formed by watching a rather limited and unrealistic smattering of U.S. TV shows and movies, most of them actually think us average American guys get paid a lot of money for hardly working. The characters they see on Beverly Hills 90210 and Santa Barbara are well-dressed, live in nice houses, drive nice cars, but also have lots of leisure time. They are never shown slaving away at 60hour work weeks, rushing around like maniacs shoving fast food into their mouths while nervously glancing at the Blackberries, going into the office on weekends, etc.

Olga was shocked when she saw how hard I worked to maintain my ( and then our) lifestyle, that I didn't own the high-end downtown luxury apartment I (and then we) lived in, or my BMW; rather I was making payments on them. (Since then we bought  a house. When we got married, I was deliberately renting because I liked the flexibility of it, and because I was a corporate "road warrior.")

Russians can not relate to this aspect of Capitalism at all. Again, they come over here thinking the money literally falls off of trees on us. Further, they don't want to work that hard - aren't conditioned or motivated to work that hard, think its crazy (and they are probably right).

As a result, and as Bruno points out, this introduces a cultural difference and issue that neither you, nor your Russian fiancee may have considered. And it hits home in a very big and important area - the area of family. Don't forget what she said in her "marriage agency" profile about her biggest priority in life being a "cozy home" and "strong family." (In addition to the unwritten but understood priority of financial security and the stability that comes with it.)

And when you think about it, it's our crazy American "work ethic" - the thing that makes America (and hence American bachelors) so financially attractive - that has also caused much of the erosion of our American family units, and hence caused  a lot of us to become bachelors.

A vicious circle, it is. And a circle that Russian-Western couples can not escape from once the Russian woman is in the West and deep into the marriage.

I am speaking of course, about the average, middle-aged Western guy who probably does allright for hiself, but still has to work and isn't exactly using $100 bills to light cigars.

Exceptions are the older guys who are retired or semi-retired, have done well for themselves. Have their houses paid off. Are pretty financially set and therefore have a lot of leisure time they can dedicate to their Russian wives and new families. I think those are few and farher between than us average schmucks, although they do account for a higher percentage of the "success" stories in terms of their Russian wives being content and therefore not feigning DV and running off into the night.

In other words, its a lot harder to be successful at this if you are just an average working guy. The average working guys have to have more going for them than just money. And the secret ingredient? LOVE of course. Real, passionate love going in both directions.

I guess you could view those guys with beautiful young Russian wives that don't have to work 60-hour weeks, or even 20-hour weeks (the guys, not the wives) as lucky, but I'm not so sure I'm convinced of that. When you think about it, those marriages are a little bit artificial in the sense that they have not embarked a a true "life" together, rather they have embarked on a retirement together, the late-joiner reaping the benefits and comforts of the sugar-daddy's earlier efforts, but without having to have sweat ed and toiled and worried to that end, as in a true marriage. In my mind, that struggling together, working together, making it work together - the struggle - is big part of part of the passion of a real relationship. Dare I say "marriage of convenience" or "trophy wife"? Shame on me. (As with my views on "marriage agencies," I plan duck any subsequent attacks for nerves I might have struck.)

But I digress.

My point was that nuclear family life and having husband and Poppa home every night at 6:00 Pm for dinner, and every Saturday and Sunday all day, and quality time is very, very important to Russian women, and to successful marriages. And the difficulty of achieving just that in the West, is something that a great majority of Russian "mail order brides" and their Western husbands (if they are alert enough to be sensitive to the issue) must struggle with.  

Olga and I have been working on this delicate balance since the day she arrived. We need the money, but we need my time as well. Which is worth more to the marriage? Again, a delicate balance. And after the baby arrived and Olga's maternal and East European social/familial instincts hit full tilt (with the ironic and seemingly cruel and unfair counter-effect of household expenses also hitting full tilt), it has has got even trickier.

The good news is that I am loving every minute of it. wouldn't have it any other way. When I drop my responsibilities at the office and come home for dinner and playing peek-a-boo Poppa at the risk of losing a big client or pissing off fool on a Blackberry, I just suck it in and think "cost-benefit" analysis, with the costs and benefits being more than just material. This would probably not have been possible with a woman from my own culture. I owe much of my happiness in this area to Olga. She has taught me the importance of detaching myself from the bad points of my culture so that I may live a better and more fulfilling life overall. Russians are probably experts at that.


Bruno, Did you ever listen to any old Genesis? Peter Gabriel? "I know what I like, and I like what I know..." ? "Me. I'm just a lawn mower, you can tell me by the way I walk"?

DS

[Photo Guy]

BC, in the first month of communicating with his gal, a newbie should ask
a number of important questions, like How do your parents feel about
you leaving home for America (or Italy).  I did that. She told me they wanted her
to be happy -they wanted what was best for her. So, if her English was
excellent or not, I could've asked her to elaborate on that subject.  I didn't. 
If that was a mistake, it had NOTHING to do with language skills. As it turned
out, that wasn't quite true. She was not deceptive, but the reality of her
being away, disrupted the lives of her parents.

Yes, a common language would've made it possible to discuss all of those
things you mentioned. I agree. In the past year, I saw in her the basic
ingredients for success- flexibilty, humor, strength, ethics, and a positive
loving attitude.  Someone can tell me that it is impossible - I could not
have learned these things about her, without a common language.
Well, I was able to learn about her, through various interpreters, and by
living with her.  With the right attitude and love, many things are possible.

This may sound overly idealistic, but I believe that. I see it as being pragmatic.
My point is that the language barrier is not what led to our separation or
'failure'. And good language skills may not have prevented it. 

In terms of 'risk', yes -lack of a common language is a riskier situation, but
life and love are not black and white. The language barrier can be overcome. -doug

[KenC]

If you remove the health problems, Larisa may well have stayed here in the US.
So it was a fine line between her staying and going back. A very fine line
between alleged 'success' or 'failure'.  She was very determined to learn English
and that attitude seems to be discounted and overlooked here at RWD. Why?  -doug 

Photo,
A small point here.  Larisa deciding to stay did not in itself assure any kind of "success."  Her returning was a "failure" only in the sense that you failed to marry.  It might have been the best thing for the both of you.

Her determination to improve her English once she arrived was a very good sign.  It may have been "too little, too late" though.

Doug Salem,
Why don't you start a new thread on the topic of "work ethic or the lack thereof?"  I would happily participate.
KenC

[Vaughn]

KenC,

 Sorry to see you've deleted the avatar. Not only is your wife
stunning, you look great together. And yeah, I'd like to
participate in a work-ethic thread as well - The FSU people
here that we know are generally a hard-working lot. Our daughter
called from Yoshkar Ola yesterday - she's ready to come home,
and talks of finding work immediately - so she can earn the
automobile that Vaw-gun's not so prone to just give away.
Funny, but after not speaking much English since mid-June,
she was stumbling with her words - but she'll be back on track
in no time - she's due home August 20 to start the senior year.

Doug,  I'm sorry again that it didn't work out, regardless of
the causes. I believe that you really wanted this, and that
you're probably going to try again one day. You're perfectly
correct in implying that there ARE factors not controllable -
but I'll continue to urge patience, discernment and caution.

On that note - Turbo - Lesson Two: IF you really value our
relationship, try to be more patient.

Если ты действительно ценишь наши отношения,
попытайсья быть более терпеливой.

YES-lee tee dyestVEEtyelnah TSYENeesh NASHee ahtna-SHYENeeya,
pahpeeTAIsya bweets BOLyehyeh tyerpyelEEvoy.

[Mamma D]

I suppose i am not the only one who is blown away by the work-ethic/study-ethic we see in our ladies and grandchildren.

My daughter and grandson has achived more than i would ever have believed possable, and both with stunning humiliy.
I would love to see such a page as you propose.

 Sorry to see you've deleted the avatar. Not only is your wife
stunning, you look great together. And yeah, I'd like to
participate in a work-ethic thread as well - The FSU people
here that we know are generally a hard-working lot. Our daughter
called from Yoshkar Ola yesterday - she's ready to come home,
and talks of finding work immediately - so she can earn the
automobile that Vaw-gun's not so prone to just give away.
Funny, but after not speaking much English since mid-June,
she was stumbling with her words - but she'll be back on track
in no time - she's due home August 20 to start the senior year.

Mamma d

[Doug S]

Ken, I'll have to think about how to start such a thread, and where to put it. Would it be wrong to simply cut and paste a lot of what I wrote here? Maybe edit it or switch it around a little to stimulate more comments/discussion.  It contains the essence of my observations, ideas, and views on the subject.

Vaughn, you must have me confused with somebody else? Olga and I are still married and doing fine. it just keeps getting better. We had a little girl last year. Couldn't be happier.

Others, there is no question that Russians are hard workers - when you put them to a task and tell them what to do. The work "ethic" I'm talking about has more to do with drive, ambition, and motivation. And the trade-off betwen that and liesure time and family. Also the trade-off between quality of life associated with material gain vs. quality of life associated with spiritual gain. (where is George Harrison when you really need him?) Also, with making money honestly vs. making it dishonestly, with "honesty" and "rules" being highly subjective depending on which culture you come from (we have too many rules, they have none).

Doug

[Bruno]

Vaughn, you must have me confused with somebody else? Olga and I are still married and doing fine. it just keeps getting better. We had a little girl last year. Couldn't be happier.

DougS, Vaughn was posting about a other Doug ( Photoguy ) 

[Turboguy]

Vaughn,  Thanks for lesson 2.  3 is welcome anytime.