Trip Report: 2 weeks in Moscow/Sochi

[PeeWee]

Funny......my girl's name is Kate and she turned 26 yesterday......and my name is Todd......

Although you fail to mention that you are 70 years old, iPod. Is Kate short for Katerina?

Peewee

[JustPlaneCrazy]

Although you fail to mention that you are 70 years old, iPod. Is Kate short for Katerina?

Peewee

Ekaterina

[PeeWee]

Ekaterina

Yeah, nice name, like the city.

Peewee

[Todd]

Katsiaryna here.  Weird coincidence about the names.  Even weirder coincidence is that we had problems at the bank recently because someone with her exact name and also without a soc sec number started with drawing money from our account.  (The bank got the accounts mixed up.)

Todd

[groovlstk]

Part VII

The next morning I woke up with a nasty cold and couldn't stop sneezing. There's nothing worse than a Summer cold. The night before we decided to visit the botanical gardens in Sochi. We took a long marshrutka ride to Sochi, again our driver was a maniac. I came to realize that when a driver crosses the center line to pass a slower-moving vehicle, it's the responsibility of the driver coming in the opposite direction to swerve onto the shoulder to avoid an accident. The driver who's on the wrong side of the road has the right of way, you understand.

Although the day was hot, the botanical gardens were very beautiful.

http://home.comcast.net/~marka136/botanical_garden.jpg

http://home.comcast.net/~marka136/botanical_garden2.jpg

Irina, like so many Russian girls I've met, has some odd beliefs when it comes to health and medicine. One day earlier in the week, she told me she had a headache. She theorized that walking across our air-conditioned room in bare feet earlier in the day had caused the cold to migrate through her feet to her head. When she told me this I burst out laughing (and received a jab in the ribs that will make me think twice about doing it again). Anyway, Irina stopped to smell some flowers, and a passing babushka with a basket of dead fish (she fed pelicans, a few of which roamed the park freely) warned her that the pollen in these flowers can cause a headache. Sure enough, ten minutes later she had a headache. We found a shady area and bought some ice tea and talked for awhile, whereupon Irina pronounced herself cured. We walked to the park's highest point and then rode a ski lift down. The view of the Black Sea was magnificent.

http://home.comcast.net/~marka136/skilift.jpg

http://home.comcast.net/~marka136/sochi.jpg

We both nodded off on the marshrutka ride back to our hotel, arriving just in time for dinner. I told Irina we were going to eat at a cafe, that I was sick of the hotel food. She wasn't happy about it, but I had an agenda so I was firm.

I haven't let the cat out of the bag until now, but I bought a diamond ring with me to Russia. I planned to propose during dinner at a cafe on old Arbat, the site of our first date. However, weather and schedule conspired against us and I didn't want to wait until we returned to Moscow to propose. I thought of doing it on the beach at night, but I had visions of dropping the ring in the darkness and losing it forever. I wanted to propose in the most romantic setting possible, but I realized that if I kept putting it off I'd end up doing it at SVO on my way home

One of the gifts Irina gave me was a fanny pack-like bag with a shoulder strap, which I quickly dubbed my man-purse. She explained to me that my backpack broadcasted "foreigner" to all the wrong people, and while in Moscow I noticed many local guys accoutered with man-purses. Before leaving our room, I tried to fit a digital cam and the ring box into my man-purse, but it was impossible. Which item should I leave behind? We walked to a cafe near the beach, a romantic place lit by torches. There I proposed to her and she tearfully accepted. It wasn't a total surprise, she confessed to me that she suspected I would propose to her on old Arbat, since I kept insisting we visit there while we were in Moscow.

So here I am, a 4-week wonder... Fortunately I have three weeks of vacation time left before the end of the year, and I plan to spend all of it with Irina. I've also promised to spend New Year's with her and her family. As I'm typing this I can hear my wallet groaning in disappointment.

Funny thing is that I used to vacation with my friends all the time, until three years ago when I began to search seriously. Since then every vacation day I've had has been spent in the FSU. I'm looking forward to spending some vacation time here in the US. I used to get a share in a beach house with my friends every Summer, and I've promised Irina next summer we'll get a full share and spend every weekend there from June to September.

http://home.comcast.net/~marka136/lbi.jpg

[tim 360]

WOW.  A great ending to your search Groov and I remember back when it all began when you came aboard here.  Over that time your trip reports have been great to read and an education to many I am sure.  There were many ups and downs and it is a pleasure to read of your success.  I think that in Irina you have found a really great girl...congratulations.  If she is as smart as you say she will thrive here.  As many have.  Thanks for all the trip reports and my very best wishes to you and Irina,  Cheers, Tim360

[Bruno]

There I proposed to her and she tearfully accepted.

    

[wiz]

and MATCH!!!

Congradulations!

    

Wiz

[Jet]

Congradulations to both of you, from both of us  and warm wishes for many happy years together.

[groovlstk]

Bruno, Wiz, Tim, and Jet, thanks for all your good wishes. It's much appreciated, especially since pretty much everyone else in my life thinks I’m nuts for chasing a woman 5000 miles away

Tim, when I think about my state of mind when I arrived here at RWD 1 1/2 years ago, I can't help but shudder. Not that I'm any genius now, but man I came within cold inches of marrying a monster. I was also involved with some women who were certainly decent, but not right for me. Funny enough, I think at least three of these women would have accepted my marriage proposal, knowing all the while that we were throwing the dice.

I can honestly say that without the good advice and shared experiences I found here, I would have screwed up my life something fierce.

I know there's much work to be done and right now things are the easiest they'll ever be between Irina and I, but I take comfort knowing that I'll always find good advice here in the months (and years) ahead.   

[BC]

I know there's much work to be done and right now things are the easiest they'll ever be between Irina and I, but I take comfort knowing that I'll always find good advice here in the months (and years) ahead.   

What an understatement 

Not to worry.. I get the feeling you two will do just fine.  IMHO the third year is the beginning of bliss.

Congrats!

[Leslie]

Groov,

Congratulations !

Wonderful trip report.  I have followed your journey and I think you two will do fine. 

The class of 2006 is growing....

[wiz]

Bruno, Wiz, Tim, and Jet, thanks for all your good wishes. It's much appreciated, especially since pretty much everyone else in my life thinks I’m nuts for chasing a woman 5000 miles away

Groov

Just a simple question, from your personal experience.

Do you think the fact that Iryna spoke good English has increased your chances of having excellent communication and better base for a good relationship.?

Also did this minimised the time of getting to know each other well with the successful results that we now know?

[jb]

wiz,

Do you think the fact that Irena spoke good English has increased your chances of having excellent communication and better base for a good relationship.?

I love how you try to ask subtle questions like this in an attempt to garner tidbits to support your own conclusions.  If you'd gone back a bit to read Groov's earlier T/Rs you'd answer your own questions.  Groov has written much detailing his experiences with a number of ladies, both with and without English skills.

His first T/R written for the RWD was about a year and a half ago when he went to Dnepropetrovsk to visit 5 different girls, (I think it was 5), and he mentioned in that report how difficult it was to date a girl with zero English.  I think anyone who actually read those T/Rs would draw the right conclusions about dating girls when a 3rd wheel is needed, translators/interpreters simply get in the way of bonding and courting. 

Contrary to popular opinion, my wife did not appear suddenly in a vacuum, I dated other FSU women while I was working with the Russians.  Those who had no English were all beautiful and clever, but I remember sitting there, gazing at all that loveliness, and wishing there was some way I could just get in her knickers and have done with it.  Without being able to converse with the PERSON behind the face there's no way I could generate real interest in the woman.  She was simply an object of sexual attraction, not someone I wanted to get to know.  I am likewise certain that I was not a person to whom those women might want to get to know more than superficially, I was merely a possible ticket to the Promised Land, nothing more than a mule they might hitch a ride on.  What the proponents of this argument never realize is that this is a knife that cuts both ways

We've hammered this topic to death without reaching a conclusion or a decision about the need to be able to communicate.  Those of us who are already married can talk until we are blue in the face about the need for a common language and we seem never to be able to convince those with the stars in their eyes that to do otherwise,,, is still Mission Impossible.

[Turboguy]

We've hammered this topic to death without reaching a conclusion or a decision about the need to be able to communicate.  Those of us who are already married can talk until we are blue in the face about the need for a common language and we seem never to be able to convince those with the stars in their eyes that to do otherwise,,, is still Mission Impossible.

I am curious why you use the words "conclusion or decision".    It just makes me feel like you think you can make decisions for other people.  I have to agree that you will probably not be able to convince those with stars in their eyes about the difficulty involved.  You can give them advice and your advice on this subject is good.  I think for the most part those hard headed know it alls like I can be sometimes have to find out first hand.  The gals I have met have ranged from zero English to perfect English.  I too have had times where I was with someone and could do nothing but gaze at their loveliness and wait for the night to be over.   I have also met gals with great English that I could not wait for the night to be over.  I have met gals with little or no English were I felt our communication was great.

I still feel that the only way you will convince anyone is when they spend their own night staring at someones loveliness and unable to communicate.   a few nights like that and they may realize you are right.  I am sure your saying that will help them realize how important it can be.

I also still feel that one of the most critical things is the individuals involved.  I don't mean this as negative but I don't see either you or Wiz as guys who could succeed at it.  I am not meaning this in a negative way.  I am talking about what I see with nothing but the posts to go on as your personalities and individual characteristics. I think another that could not do it would be Andrewfin.   I think in his case I can explain more of what I mean.  Andrewfin is a very verbal person who likes to discuss issues and ideas.  I think if he had a gal that he could not do that with he would be bored to death in no time.    I see Clyde and PG and possibly myself as someone who could have a chance of succeeding.  I am not about to get involved with someone I feel I can not communicate with.  I just do not think that sharing a common language is 100% of communications.  I am not saying that the trade off is between the sheets.   Not at all.   Actually for me someone with about Luda's level of English was about perfect.   We could communicate but we had to work at it.  I found it really interesting.  I enjoyed helping her learn English and running her up to ESL classes.  I think if she had not been so wacky we would have done fine.   

[PeeWee]

A FWW? (Four Week Wonder). By the way you have explained your relationship with Irina it seems so solid to me. I am happy for you, groover.

Peewee

[wiz]

wiz,

I love how you try to ask subtle questions like this in an attempt to garner tidbits to support your own conclusions.  If you'd gone back a bit to read Groov's earlier T/Rs you'd answer your own questions.  Groov has written much detailing his experiences with a number of ladies, both with and without English skills.

His first T/R written for the RWD was about a year and a half ago when he went to Dnepropetrovsk to visit 5 different girls, (I think it was 5), and he mentioned in that report how difficult it was to date a girl with zero English.  I think anyone who actually read those T/Rs would draw the right conclusions about dating girls when a 3rd wheel is needed, translators/interpreters simply get in the way of bonding and courting. 

Contrary to popular opinion, my wife did not appear suddenly in a vacuum, I dated other FSU women while I was working with the Russians.  Those who had no English were all beautiful and clever, but I remember sitting there, gazing at all that loveliness, and wishing there was some way I could just get in her knickers and have done with it.  Without being able to converse with the PERSON behind the face there's no way I could generate real interest in the woman.  She was simply an object of sexual attraction, not someone I wanted to get to know.  I am likewise certain that I was not a person to whom those women might want to get to know more than superficially, I was merely a possible ticket to the Promised Land, nothing more than a mule they might hitch a ride on.  What the proponents of this argument never realize is that this is a knife that cuts both ways

We've hammered this topic to death without reaching a conclusion or a decision about the need to be able to communicate.  Those of us who are already married can talk until we are blue in the face about the need for a common language and we seem never to be able to convince those with the stars in their eyes that to do otherwise,,, is still Mission Impossible.

JB

I have not spend a lot of time going back reading every single travel report. Reading and writing on RWD is not the only thing I have to do in my life! Today I just happen to have a little more time, that is all.

I do not need to garner any support to prove my own view about common language and communication. You just done that for me, once more, very eloquently!

I also like your own conclusion!

"Those of us who are already married can talk until we are blue in the face about the need for a common language and we seem never to be able to convince those with the stars in their eyes that to do otherwise,,, is still Mission Impossible"

Thank you.

Turbo

With due respect my friend, too much waffle and got bored half way reading your post......

If after 10 years chasing RW you have not learned from your own mistakes than is obvious you will never succeed in your quest.

I did learned very fast, after my first 2 meetings with UW and changed drastically my tactics.

I think now I have better chances finding the right woman for me, to share my life and in the process I enjoy the fact that I have excellent communication with all 5 of them!

Early days yet but I will let you know what is happening, as I go a long!

[BC]

I am curious why you use the words "conclusion or decision".   

Maybe 'consensus' is better?

[Turboguy]

I agree BC, consensus would have been a perfect word that I would not had a bit of objection to.

Wiz,  sorry you got bored half way through my post.   Heck, I get bored with my posts long before that.   Some guys read Shakespeare, some read James Paterson, it sounds like your favorite reading is jb.  Well, good luck with your 5 women.  You are 5 ahead of me.  All I have at the moment are pen pals.  I would sooner see you brag after you have married one.  I could get 20 gals to go on vacation to Greece with me.

[Photo Guy]

C  O  N  G  R  A  T  U  L  A  T  I  O  N  S   !   !   !
and good luck with your future adjustments.
and keep on doing your writing/art.      -doug

[Photo Guy]

I agree with the spirit of TG's comments. Turbo, correct me if I am wrong, but I think you are
making the point that if you find a nice gal who is willing to work at learning the language,
it may be an acceptable challenge for certain guys. There are a number of guys who have
done well, despite the language barrier. IT IS A HUGE DIFFICULT CHALLENGE, no doubt
about it, but it can be overcome. I believe Leslie's wife started out at a low level of
British. And maybe Son Of Clyde too. Perhaps there are others. I got the impression
Turboguy's Luda's low level of English was NOT an issue for them. There were other
issues that were more important. My Larisa's bad English was tough to deal with at
times, but ultimately, was not the reason we separated and she chose to return to
Ukraine. She was homesick and her mom reported that her father was very ill. THAT
was the bottom line, the deciding factors. In a couple of months, she was able to
vastly improve her English skills. This showed me she was serious about staying here
and beginning a new life.

jb, as a summary, I think it's best to make the statement that a language barrier
is a *huge obstacle*, but with patience and positive attitude about learning and
adjusting, it is an obstacle that can be overcome. It is an obstacle like any other.
She may have a relative who is a criminal, she may have a quick temper, she may
not like your city...these are all challenges that you choose to accept and
deal with. ...and yes there can be 'surprise' challenges that appear out of
nowhere. With a common language there should be fewer surprises coming your
way, but not necessarily.  I think it is too rigid to impose a standard that says
Never become involved with a woman with poor English skills. I think I'd advise
guys to beware and proceed cautiously in regard to her bad English. Look at the
whole picture. If you like everything about her, except for her lack of English,
then maybe you should continue to find out who she is, using an interpreter
and translated letters. I learned a lot about Larisa, just by watching how she
interacted with her friends and our 'terp. A picture can tell a thousand words.

[Turboguy]

Good post PG.  Truthfully if there was a consensus reach, you post would in my opinion be about as right on as you could get.  I think it would be foolish to say it can absolutely not work because it has worked for many.   I also think it presents extra challenges and if someone is not up to them they should totally stick to gals with good English.

[wiz]

Turbo

I am not trying to prove that my point of view is better than yours or Photoguy or anybody else but what I am saying is very simple:

Why start from Zero point and try to build a relationship which according to Photobuy is: "IT IS A HUGE DIFFICULT CHALLENGE, no doubt about it" where you can start from point 10 and build up?

After all we are talking about our Personal lives and future hapiness!

No I don't bite the arguments by photo guy:

a) "If you find a nice gal...."

How do you know she is a nice gal when you need a terp to talk to her?
All you know is that she is good loking and you fancy her. That is all you know. You have to live with her to start to get to know her personality and many of them can happily play the gooddy goody woman during the K-1 period.

b) "My Larisa's bad English was tough to deal with at times, but ultimately, was not the reason we separated "

If she was speaking good English and they had good communication sure enough PhotoGuy would have have known in advance about her close family relationship and would have acted differently than taking her in a strange country, with no language skills whatsoever!

That relationship was doom from the start! Most of us we read his postings but now he is trying to justify his actions by saying:

"In a couple of months, she was able to vastly improve her English skills. This showed me she was serious about staying here and beginning a new life. "

When I married my ex-English wife I was very serious about it trying to create a better life for us, because I loved her, so I left my widow mother in Greece and came over to England because I knew at the time I had better posibilities for a better life here than in Greece. No I did not listen to my mother and I did not forget to support her either. BTW my wife had little to do with my decision, on the contrary, she was siding with my mother.

On the same breath Photoguy says:

"I think it's best to make the statement that a language barrier
is a *huge obstacle*, but with patience and positive attitude about learning and
adjusting, it is an obstacle that can be overcome. It is an obstacle like any other.
She may have a relative who is a criminal, she may have a quick temper, she may
not like your city...these are all challenges that you choose to accept and
deal with. ...and yes there can be 'surprise' challenges that appear out of
nowhere. With a common language there should be fewer surprises coming your
way....."

Photoguy obviously likes big challenges and look at the result!

I rest my case.

[Bruno]

Turbo
I am not trying to prove that my point of view is better than yours or Photoguy or anybody else but

Why not start a new topic where both will be able to discuss own point of view... Why not keep the trip report from groovlstk free of non related discussion...

[jb]

Excellent suggestion, Bruno.