It appears you have not registered with our community. To register please click here ...

!!

Welcome to Russian Women Discussion - the most informative site for all things related to serious long-term relationships and marriage to a partner from the Former Soviet Union countries!

Please register (it's free!) to gain full access to the many features and benefits of the site. Welcome!

+-

Author Topic: Can the West Ever Understand Eastern Europe?  (Read 644 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Boethius

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13516
  • Country: 00
  • Spouse's Country: No Selection
  • Status: No Selection
  • Trips: No Selection
Can the West Ever Understand Eastern Europe?
« on: May 15, 2018, 03:25:59 PM »
I was reading an article on Orban's visit to Poland (sorry, no translation) -


http://www.rp.pl/Dyplomacja/180519712-Morawiecki-Ciesze-sie-ze-mamy-takich-wyprobowanych-przyjaciol.html


and one of the things noted in the article was that Hungary and Poland understand each other, in a way Western Europeans cannot, because they have a shared history under communism.


There are many who believe Westerners can never really understand those who grew up under communism, for a variety of reasons.  One of them is because those who grew up under communism have a more monolithic way of thinking.  Another is that their societies had less diversity than Western European societies and North America - I mean economic diversity, which leads to more openness.  If we accept this, the rise of populism in Eastern Europe is not surprising, in fact, it was easily predictable. 

Do you agree?
To love someone means to see him as God intended him. - Fyodor Dostoevksy

Online Trenchcoat

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2062
  • Country: gb
  • Gender: Male
  • Spouse's Country: Ukraine
  • Status: Looking 3-5 years
  • Trips: 1 - 3
Re: Can the West Ever Understand Eastern Europe?
« Reply #1 on: May 15, 2018, 04:31:59 PM »
Yes

Online krimster2

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1140
  • Country: us
  • Spouse's Country: Russia
  • Status: Looking 1-2 years
  • Trips: None (yet)
Re: Can the West Ever Understand Eastern Europe?
« Reply #2 on: May 15, 2018, 06:48:00 PM »
Hungary and Poland have a much deeper association than communism, hundreds of years deeper plus the majority in both countries are Catholic

My father was first generation American born from Jewish immigrants who left Odessa after the Pogrom
they arrived in USA with no money, no English
but they were skilled tailors and they worked HARD
2 generations later and their descendants are everything from doctors to engineers
about 50% of all males served in US military

if my Yiddish/Russian speaking ancestors could assimilate
anyone can...

I have no other national loyalty except to the USA
I love this country and the principles under which it was established
if America didn't exist, I would not be here
because all the members of my family who didn't immigrate
are dead....




Online krimster2

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1140
  • Country: us
  • Spouse's Country: Russia
  • Status: Looking 1-2 years
  • Trips: None (yet)
Re: Can the West Ever Understand Eastern Europe?
« Reply #3 on: May 15, 2018, 07:06:48 PM »
to me it just seems common sense that countries that have a shared history also have a shared understanding
but the second part of your premise is that immigrants should also have some shared history or understanding with the host country
to me, just our common humanity is enough
assimilation has been and will continue to happen all on its own bushmen and headhunters can assimilate in 1-2 generations
I don't see anything to worry about

Online msmob

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2957
  • Country: gb
  • Gender: Male
  • Spouse's Country: Russia
  • Status: Married 5-10 years
  • Trips: > 10
Re: Can the West Ever Understand Eastern Europe?
« Reply #4 on: May 15, 2018, 11:08:00 PM »
Yes

Care to explain why you agree ?

Sod off Photobucket - this punter moved to flickr - rather than being blackmailed

Offline Boethius

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13516
  • Country: 00
  • Spouse's Country: No Selection
  • Status: No Selection
  • Trips: No Selection
Re: Can the West Ever Understand Eastern Europe?
« Reply #5 on: May 16, 2018, 12:29:35 AM »
to me it just seems common sense that countries that have a shared history also have a shared understanding
but the second part of your premise is that immigrants should also have some shared history or understanding with the host country
to me, just our common humanity is enough
assimilation has been and will continue to happen all on its own bushmen and headhunters can assimilate in 1-2 generations
I don't see anything to worry about

I don't think immigrants should have a shared history with their adopted country.  I just believe that they often have limited perspectives, just as we do when we go to their countries.

I don't know if Poland's and Hungary's shared Catholicism really matters.  Were that the case, then they each should also have a natural affinity with Austria and Bavaria, yet that doesn't seem to be the case.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2018, 12:47:51 AM by Boethius »
To love someone means to see him as God intended him. - Fyodor Dostoevksy

Online DaveNY

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 192
  • Country: us
  • Gender: Male
  • Spouse's Country: Russia
  • Status: Married > 10 years
  • Trips: > 10
Re: Can the West Ever Understand Eastern Europe?
« Reply #6 on: May 16, 2018, 12:55:31 AM »
Boethius your explanation doesn't explain China. China had/has a long history with communism. Mao literally killed tens of million of his people enacting his version of communism.

Even today it's still the Chinese Communist Party in charge. China has developed a version of communism that is still a one party state that mixes in some elements of a controlled capitalism that would probably infuriate Mao but has made China very rich, far richer than Russia.

This also means that Russia is going to be militarily and economically well behind China for the next few decades or more unless the Chinese government suffers some coup or meltdown that splits the country into warring factions.   

Offline Boethius

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13516
  • Country: 00
  • Spouse's Country: No Selection
  • Status: No Selection
  • Trips: No Selection
Re: Can the West Ever Understand Eastern Europe?
« Reply #7 on: May 16, 2018, 12:59:21 AM »
Do you interact significantly with Chinese immigrants?  I do, and I certainly notice the similarities in mentality to former Soviets, and significant differences in mentality between mainland Chinese and the Hong Kong Chinese who came here previously.

China is communist in leadership. but not really economically, and that monolithic mentality certainly applies politically.  I don't know enough about pre communist Chinese culture to know how it affects them today.

However, it isn't so much an "explanation" as a theory based on observation.
To love someone means to see him as God intended him. - Fyodor Dostoevksy

Online krimster2

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1140
  • Country: us
  • Spouse's Country: Russia
  • Status: Looking 1-2 years
  • Trips: None (yet)
Re: Can the West Ever Understand Eastern Europe?
« Reply #8 on: May 16, 2018, 07:38:58 AM »
you and I have been on the other side of this BO' we know what it's like to emigrate
I found that I could learn Russian social and business rules quickly, I suspect you did as well...
I had no problems adapting, in fact I became pretty damn good at it...
had I decided to live in Russia I would have been a well respected elitny biznessman
and my daughters would have joined "Nasi" the "Putin Jugend" for "appearances"
just like I always made a big show of being seen by neighbors at Victory Day handing out flowers
and saying "spossiba veterans"
yet Russian "kultura" in the broader sense of the word was VERY different from the "Leave It To Beaver" world I grew up in
ya dumisch, eta normalne

i think one of the primary indicators of whether or not someone will "fit in" is their economic and educational background
and less so on their individual cultures
the best candidates are ones with job skills that will land them a job substantial enough to raise a family
by working within and being part of the community
you begin to absorb the new culture
by the time these immigrants have children, there will little difference between them and the mainstream society


Online deccie

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 670
  • Country: au
  • Gender: Male
  • Spouse's Country: Russia
  • Status: Married 3-5 years
  • Trips: > 10
Re: Can the West Ever Understand Eastern Europe?
« Reply #9 on: May 16, 2018, 09:25:32 AM »


and one of the things noted in the article was that Hungary and Poland understand each other, in a way Western Europeans cannot, because they have a shared history under communism.


I would have thought that Hungary being an ally of the Germans during the war would have added somewhat to the baggage however. By your logic there should also be close ties with the Czech Republic, but there doesn't seem to be. (One of the places I visited in Prague was the Museum of Communism - a very moving experience)

Online krimster2

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1140
  • Country: us
  • Spouse's Country: Russia
  • Status: Looking 1-2 years
  • Trips: None (yet)
Re: Can the West Ever Understand Eastern Europe?
« Reply #10 on: May 16, 2018, 12:42:53 PM »
and as part of Austro-Hungarian empire in WWI as well
not a perfect overlap
also east germany, romania, etc

Online DaveNY

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 192
  • Country: us
  • Gender: Male
  • Spouse's Country: Russia
  • Status: Married > 10 years
  • Trips: > 10
Re: Can the West Ever Understand Eastern Europe?
« Reply #11 on: May 16, 2018, 01:09:32 PM »
Do you interact significantly with Chinese immigrants?  I do, and I certainly notice the similarities in mentality to former Soviets, and significant differences in mentality between mainland Chinese and the Hong Kong Chinese who came here previously.

Lots of Chinese immigrants in NYC. I do business with them daily. HK Chinese were raised under British rule. They're used to western business practices and have had the opportunities afforded by west.

China is communist in leadership. but not really economically, and that monolithic mentality certainly applies politically. 

This is my point and IMO this is where Putin and Yeltsin missed the boat. China's venture into their form of capitalism has literally raised the standard of living for hundreds of millions of Chinese and made China rich.

IMO Putin and Yeltsin didn't appear to see the advantages of letting the west open businesses in Russia to the same extent as China has done. China literally has factories producing iPhones and Nikes whereas Russia sells iPhones and Nikes that are produced elsewhere. Many of the factories in China are some of the most hi tech factories in the world. Factories in Russia are far behind.

Russia next door to the 750 million citizens of Europe would appear to be an ideal place to have factories producing iPhones and other luxury brands yet it never happened. Factories outside of Moscow and Spb would mean short shipping distances to their markets in Europe and a short hop across the pond to the markets of the US east coast. Much cheaper than having to ship from southern China.

All the big name brands are in Russia but not the critical components that have lifted China out of poverty, the factories. Why? Surely Yeltsin and Putin must have thought of this?

I was in Russia in the late 90s looking for business opportunities and all I saw was corruption and poverty with few opportunities. It was much different when I was in HK and China a few years earlier. Yes there was vast poverty in China but China had massive potential whereas in Russia there was no such forethought.

Offline Boethius

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13516
  • Country: 00
  • Spouse's Country: No Selection
  • Status: No Selection
  • Trips: No Selection
Re: Can the West Ever Understand Eastern Europe?
« Reply #12 on: May 16, 2018, 02:11:46 PM »
I would have thought that Hungary being an ally of the Germans during the war would have added somewhat to the baggage however. By your logic there should also be close ties with the Czech Republic, but there doesn't seem to be. (One of the places I visited in Prague was the Museum of Communism - a very moving experience)


It's not my logic, it's krimster's.  However, Hungary and Poland both have close relations with the Czech Republic.


My theory also applies to the Czech Republic, which also elected a populist president.  Their most popular political party is centrist and also populist.
To love someone means to see him as God intended him. - Fyodor Dostoevksy

Online Trenchcoat

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2062
  • Country: gb
  • Gender: Male
  • Spouse's Country: Ukraine
  • Status: Looking 3-5 years
  • Trips: 1 - 3
Re: Can the West Ever Understand Eastern Europe?
« Reply #13 on: May 16, 2018, 03:22:37 PM »
Care to explain why you agree ?

Boe just asked if I (we) agreed, she never asked why, lol. Could have made this thread the shortest ever and after Boethius made all the effort with the opening blurb :devil:

Offline Boethius

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13516
  • Country: 00
  • Spouse's Country: No Selection
  • Status: No Selection
  • Trips: No Selection
Re: Can the West Ever Understand Eastern Europe?
« Reply #14 on: May 16, 2018, 03:24:30 PM »
HK Chinese were raised under British rule. They're used to western business practices and have had the opportunities afforded by west.


Yes, I was aware of that.  I know a lot of HK Chinese.  Worked with them, lived among them.
Quote
This is my point and IMO this is where Putin and Yeltsin missed the boat. China's venture into their form of capitalism has literally raised the standard of living for hundreds of millions of Chinese and made China rich.


Their population was far more rural than was Russia's at the time.  So, they could raise the standard of living far more easily.

Quote
IMO Putin and Yeltsin didn't appear to see the advantages of letting the west open businesses in Russia to the same extent as China has done. China literally has factories producing iPhones and Nikes whereas Russia sells iPhones and Nikes that are produced elsewhere. Many of the factories in China are some of the most hi tech factories in the world. Factories in Russia are far behind.


Russia next door to the 750 million citizens of Europe would appear to be an ideal place to have factories producing iPhones and other luxury brands yet it never happened. Factories outside of Moscow and Spb would mean short shipping distances to their markets in Europe and a short hop across the pond to the markets of the US east coast. Much cheaper than having to ship from southern China.

China didn't have Jeffrey Sachs and the IMF imposing shock therapy on their economy.  The theory was, this would increase living standards almost immediately. In addition, all of the FSU was incredibly corrupt, and once the party's primary control was removed, the real face of its members was on display.  China's party does still maintain some semblance of control over all those industries that are within its borders.

Quote
I was in Russia in the late 90s looking for business opportunities and all I saw was corruption and poverty with few opportunities. It was much different when I was in HK and China a few years earlier. Yes there was vast poverty in China but China had massive potential whereas in Russia there was no such forethought.


Because those that stole the wealth don't care what happens to the country.  That has changed to a degree in Russia.  In Ukraine, not so much.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2018, 08:15:15 PM by Boethius »
To love someone means to see him as God intended him. - Fyodor Dostoevksy

Online DaveNY

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 192
  • Country: us
  • Gender: Male
  • Spouse's Country: Russia
  • Status: Married > 10 years
  • Trips: > 10
Re: Can the West Ever Understand Eastern Europe?
« Reply #15 on: May 16, 2018, 05:01:24 PM »

Because those that stole the wealth don't care what happens to the country.  That has changed to a degree in Russia.  In Ukraine, not so much.

This is what a number of Russians say, those that live in the west and those that are still in Russia. Some are even more cynical. The cynics say the government didn't do much to modernize and develop commerce in Russia because it is easier to rule and control poorer people.

IMO, this is also why the brain drain from Russia continues because there are more and better opportunities in the more modernized west than in Russia.

Offline Boethius

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13516
  • Country: 00
  • Spouse's Country: No Selection
  • Status: No Selection
  • Trips: No Selection
Re: Can the West Ever Understand Eastern Europe?
« Reply #16 on: May 16, 2018, 05:23:23 PM »
I would disagree with the cynics.  I think it was just a matter of lining their own pockets.  They are incapable of building something great.

you and I have been on the other side of this BO' we know what it's like to emigrate
I found that I could learn Russian social and business rules quickly, I suspect you did as well...
I had no problems adapting, in fact I became pretty damn good at it...
had I decided to live in Russia I would have been a well respected elitny biznessman
and my daughters would have joined "Nasi" the "Putin Jugend" for "appearances"
just like I always made a big show of being seen by neighbors at Victory Day handing out flowers
and saying "spossiba veterans"
yet Russian "kultura" in the broader sense of the word was VERY different from the "Leave It To Beaver" world I grew up in
ya dumisch, eta normalne

i think one of the primary indicators of whether or not someone will "fit in" is their economic and educational background
and less so on their individual cultures
the best candidates are ones with job skills that will land them a job substantial enough to raise a family
by working within and being part of the community
you begin to absorb the new culture
by the time these immigrants have children, there will little difference between them and the mainstream society

I was already fully fluent in Ukrainian, so much so, most Kyianins believed I was from Poland.

There was no business when I lived in Ukraine.  I did not "fit" with the mentality, and still don't.  One of the ways I know I can never understand the FSU is my hopeless optimism about its future after the Soviet collapse.  Every time I tell the better half I believe something will change, he laughs and tells me what actually will occur.  This has been the case since 1991.  In fact, in September, 1990, he told me the USSR would collapse soon, by the end of 1991.   His record is 100% in predictions to date.  He explained to me that he knows their mentality, he knows what shapes them, he knows every one of their permutations, because his very survival depended on it.  He does admit, he thought generations who grew up, and those born, after the Soviet collapse would be different, though they are not.  Sometimes, his predictions take years to occur.  He even told me he hoped he was wrong, but he believed there would be war in Donbas within a year, and he was right about that.  I used to tell him he should work as an analytic for CSIS (our CIA), but he views politics as "primitive".
« Last Edit: May 16, 2018, 05:25:00 PM by Boethius »
To love someone means to see him as God intended him. - Fyodor Dostoevksy

Online krimster2

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1140
  • Country: us
  • Spouse's Country: Russia
  • Status: Looking 1-2 years
  • Trips: None (yet)
Re: Can the West Ever Understand Eastern Europe?
« Reply #17 on: May 16, 2018, 06:31:59 PM »
i'm somewhat like your husband when it comes to Ukraine
there's no optimism
they will always be a prisoner of Russia

Offline Boethius

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13516
  • Country: 00
  • Spouse's Country: No Selection
  • Status: No Selection
  • Trips: No Selection
Re: Can the West Ever Understand Eastern Europe?
« Reply #18 on: May 16, 2018, 07:10:39 PM »
He blames that on Ukrainians, though.  Not Russians.
To love someone means to see him as God intended him. - Fyodor Dostoevksy

Online southernX

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 903
  • Country: au
  • Gender: Male
  • Spouse's Country: Russia
  • Status: Married 5-10 years
  • Trips: > 10
Re: Can the West Ever Understand Eastern Europe?
« Reply #19 on: May 16, 2018, 07:31:30 PM »
Quote
  bo ... I did not "fit" with the mentality, and still don't.  One of the ways I know I can never understand the FSU is my hopeless optimism about its future after the Soviet collapse.  Every time I tell the better half I believe something will change, he laughs and tells me what actually will occur.  This has been the case since 1991.  In fact, in September, 1990, he told me the USSR would collapse soon, by the end of 1991.   His record is 100% in predictions to date.  He explained to me that he knows their mentality, he knows what shapes them, he knows every one of their permutations, because his very survival depended on it.  He does admit, he thought generations who grew up, and those born, after the Soviet collapse would be different, though they are not.  Sometimes, his predictions take years to occur.  He even told me he hoped he was wrong, but he

this is a carbon copy of myself and my wife , im the optimist , she is the local who knows better imc

SX
Going to church doesn't make you a Christian any more than standing in a garage makes you a car.

Online 2tallbill

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8004
  • Country: us
  • Gender: Male
  • Living the dream
  • Spouse's Country: Russia
  • Status: Married 3-5 years
  • Trips: > 10
Re: Can the West Ever Understand Eastern Europe?
« Reply #20 on: May 16, 2018, 08:18:55 PM »
Here is a google translate

Prime Minister's Office
amk
   
The official visit of Hungarian Prime Minister Viktor Orban to Poland is underway. He talked with the Prime Minister of Moravia about the position of Poland and Hungary regarding refugees and the future EU budget.

During a joint press conference, Orban and Morawiecki, as a model, determined the cooperation between the two countries.

They also agreed that the countries of Central Europe are united by the experience of the experience of communism, which was not given to Western coun- tries, and that is why Central European countries are often misunderstood by
old 'EU members.
 
The plans for joint investments were also discussed.

The main topics discussed were the issue of immigrants, mainly from the Middle East and North Africa, support for a friendly, common European market.

Kancelaria Premiera
- I am very glad that we have such tested friends. We are very constructive in this friendship - said Morawiecki at the end.

Viktor Orban, in turn, thanked the Polish prime minister for support during the election campaign, expressed his gratitude for friendship and cooperation.

The Hungarian prime minister said that the newly elected EP should deal with the immigrant case next year, and that EU countries should focus on the protection of borders and not on the distribution of immigrants.

Orban also said that Hungary supports Poland's decisive role and, together with it, wants to lay the foundations for a great and economically strong Central Europe.

Wiktor Orban will meet with President Andrzej Duda today.

Earlier, he laid flowers in front of the Unknown Soldier.

http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.rp.pl%2FDyplomacja%2F180519712-Morawiecki-Ciesze-sie-ze-mamy-takich-wyprobowanych-przyjaciol.html&edit-text=&act=url

FSUW are not for entry level daters
FSUW don't do vague
FSUW like a man of action. Be a man of action 
If you find a promising girl, get your butt on a plane.
There are a hundred ways to be successful and a thousand ways to f#ck it up
Kiss the girl, don't ask her first.

Online krimster2

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1140
  • Country: us
  • Spouse's Country: Russia
  • Status: Looking 1-2 years
  • Trips: None (yet)
Re: Can the West Ever Understand Eastern Europe?
« Reply #21 on: May 16, 2018, 08:38:41 PM »
"He blames that on Ukrainians, though.  Not Russians."

Конечно

the Treaty of Pereyasla in 1654 turned Ukrainian peasants into Russian serfs and forced Russification
while nobility were allowed to keep their titles

always oligarchs against proletariat

Offline Boethius

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13516
  • Country: 00
  • Spouse's Country: No Selection
  • Status: No Selection
  • Trips: No Selection
Re: Can the West Ever Understand Eastern Europe?
« Reply #22 on: May 16, 2018, 08:43:13 PM »
No, I disagree with your comment on Russification. That did not start until the 19th century and was off and on. It was only under the Soviets that it was really intense.
To love someone means to see him as God intended him. - Fyodor Dostoevksy

Offline Boethius

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13516
  • Country: 00
  • Spouse's Country: No Selection
  • Status: No Selection
  • Trips: No Selection
Re: Can the West Ever Understand Eastern Europe?
« Reply #23 on: May 17, 2018, 12:52:13 AM »
I didn't have time before, but wanted to expand, or more accurately, explain my previous post.

In the times of Khmelnytsky, there was no "Ukrainian" language.  The people of that region spoke a common language.  What separated them was religion (Catholic or Orthodox), not language.

There are scholars who will allege that Russification started in 1720, when the printing of books in Ukrainian was banned.  However, this really meant nothing, as the first Ukrainian literature was printed in 1798.  There were edicts under Catherine II to Russify the Kyiv Mohyla Academy, and the Holy Synod, but this did not have a profound effect, as those affected already spoke Russian and were developing a Ukrainian literature.  Although there were writers between Kotliarevsky and Shevchenko, it is really only with Shevchenko and thereafter that a truly independent Ukrainian language and literature developed, fairly uniformly, in the Right Bank and the Left Bank, thanks to the efforts of Ukrainian writers and intellectuals. So really, the most profound attempt in the Tsarist period at Russification was the publication of the Emz Ukaz in 1876.

As Ukraine was split between the Russian and Austro-Hungarian Empires (ruled by Poles in the latter case), when language was repressed in one empire, intellectuals fled to the other empire, and vice versa.  I think without this, Ukrainian would have been subsumed, either by Russian or Polish.

Unlike in much of Europe, Ukrainian national consciousness did not develop in the mid 1800's.  It developed much later, in the late 19th and early 20th centuries. 

Russification became a national Soviet policy in 1927, intensifying by 1930.  That is when Ukrainian was subjected to intense Russification, which was pretty much the case until about 1988, when Ukrainian writers were rediscovered in the easterm part of the Ukrainian SSR.  The Western half of the Ukrainian SSR was always subjected to far more intense Russification, because (a) they had escaped it before 1939 and then during WWII; and (b) they had far, far, more native Ukrainian speakers, speakers who spoke virtually no Russian, even in the 1970's and 1980's.  This is why Western Ukraine was not ruled by Kyiv, but by Moscow, right to the Soviet collapse, and all the "leaders" of the region - the elites, were transplanted Russians. 

The effects of Russification still exist today in Ukraine, which is why, if you visit any city in Central or Eastern Ukraine, you are far more likely to hear surzhik than Ukrainian.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2018, 05:49:41 AM by Boethius »
To love someone means to see him as God intended him. - Fyodor Dostoevksy

 

+-RWD Stats

Members
Total Members: 9752
Latest: andywhit
New This Month: 6
New This Week: 1
New Today: 1
Stats
Total Posts: 471722
Total Topics: 18742
Most Online Today: 1378
Most Online Ever: 2127
(March 20, 2014, 11:07:42 PM)
Users Online
Members: 35
Guests: 1331
Total: 1366

+-Recent Posts

Re: Trench's Questions and Philosophies by mhr7
Today at 03:47:54 AM

Re: Trench's Questions and Philosophies by Sting23
Today at 03:33:16 AM

Re: Enroute to Russia, the Search Continues... by Trenchcoat
Today at 03:17:31 AM

Re: Trench's Questions and Philosophies by Sting23
Today at 03:12:15 AM

Re: Trench's Questions and Philosophies by Nightwish
Today at 03:08:23 AM

Re: Trench's Questions and Philosophies by JayH
Today at 02:55:35 AM

Re: Trench's Questions and Philosophies by Sting23
Today at 02:41:27 AM

Re: Trench's Questions and Philosophies by Blighty
Today at 02:12:43 AM

Re: Trench's Questions and Philosophies by Sting23
Today at 01:11:40 AM

Re: Trench's Questions and Philosophies by JayH
Today at 12:31:21 AM

Powered by EzPortal