Ukraine 1990s

[Jamesukjames]

I'd like to know what it was like from a British or usa perspective dating in the 1990s and 2000s in ukraine.  Visas etc.  I'm just wondering what I missed.

[krimster2]

well, you certainly came to the right place to ask this question...

what was it like?

back then
you didn’t have to actually go out and try very hard to meet women
you just facilitated them meeting you!

all this really means is you would go to either a University (Taras Shevchenko!) or at a cafe near a university
and “set your trap”
for me, it was pulling out my sketch book and drawing the people around me
within 15 min I’d have a group of observers, they were almost always college girls
so you talk to the cute ones and invite them over for chai and confecte... then dinner, etc

that’s how I ended up with a 20 yr old girl laying naked on the couch in my rented apartment watching Russian MTV all day

BTW, you mentioned visa, not sure of the context
but, provided is an actual visa stamp from Ukraine circa 90s
this provides my “bona fides”

[Jamesukjames]

Wow they are still using the same ink stamp 20 years later ))))

[msmob]

You missed the break up of the Soviet Union and the UKraine Communist Party still believing Ukraine is not a legal state ,the rise of US nationalism and language, need a visa before arrival,  the Orange Revolution following 'interesting' election results. Sevchenko, Crimea, Donbas, swimming in the blue lake for free ... 

[GenMish]

I'd like to know what it was like from a British or usa perspective dating in the 1990s and 2000s in ukraine.  Visas etc.  I'm just wondering what I missed.

Getting a Business Visa in the 90s was pretty easy if you had a contact doing business there. The Russian consulate in San Francisco had a man I could call and get one within a week. I cant remember the cost, but whatever it was minor.

[jone]

well, you certainly came to the right place to ask this question...

what was it like?

back then
you didn’t have to actually go out and try very hard to meet women
you just facilitated them meeting you!

all this really means is you would go to either a University (Taras Shevchenko!) or at a cafe near a university
and “set your trap”
for me, it was pulling out my sketch book and drawing the people around me
within 15 min I’d have a group of observers, they were almost always college girls
so you talk to the cute ones and invite them over for chai and confecte... then dinner, etc

that’s how I ended up with a 20 yr old girl laying naked on the couch in my rented apartment watching Russian MTV all day

BTW, you mentioned visa, not sure of the context
but, provided is an actual visa stamp from Ukraine circa 90s
this provides my “bona fides”

Was looking through my old passport.  Mine all say Russia, not Ukraine.

[rwd123]

I'm just wondering what I missed.

The glory days! You missed it. My first visit was before the Orange Revolution and rolling revolutions since. Foreigners were still a bit a novelty and girls very approachable. A highlight was picking up a tall pretty thing in a rotating bar. Her friend fell for an American lawyer on sabbatical but ended up marrying a German. The tall girl moved to the south of the country and last I heard from her was still unmarried.

Maybe it's because I'm older but the vibe is different now. I guess that's what 15-20 years of economic and political stagnation/decline does to a country. Basically the country has gone backwards, at least the population has. Those that can get out seek greener pastures abroad. I'd say there's a greater dislike/distrust of foreigners but that's only my perception, I could be way off. Visas never a problem.

Sadly I never made it to Moscow pre-98. The wild, wild east was a one-time opportunity. So I missed the really, really good times but went early enough to catch the good times. It ain't the same!

[msmob]

You missed ..the rise of US UA nationalism and languag

Ooops

[GenMish]

The glory days! You missed it. My first visit was before the Orange Revolution and rolling revolutions since. Foreigners were still a bit a novelty and girls very approachable. A highlight was picking up a tall pretty thing in a rotating bar. Her friend fell for an American lawyer on sabbatical but ended up marrying a German. The tall girl moved to the south of the country and last I heard from her was still unmarried.

Maybe it's because I'm older but the vibe is different now. I guess that's what 15-20 years of economic and political stagnation/decline does to a country. Basically the country has gone backwards, at least the population has. Those that can get out seek greener pastures abroad. I'd say there's a greater dislike/distrust of foreigners but that's only my perception, I could be way off. Visas never a problem.

Sadly I never made it to Moscow pre-98. The wild, wild east was a one-time opportunity. So I missed the really, really good times but went early enough to catch the good times. It ain't the same!

I too never made it to Moscow, other than flying through early 90s. Personally, I thought the Urals was a better place to look for my future wife and mother for my children.

Just a story about how great  Moscow was. My agency had scheduled 3 US men to be there, but we would be seeing different women. However, we were to be able to call one another, compare notes, and double date if we wanted. One fellow stopped in Moscow, several days later he called the agency and said he caught pneumonia and couldn't come. Mind you, he had already paid the agency fee. Later I found out he never went. I was introduced to the main lady he was corresponding with, spent a day, off the charts beautiful, absolutely stunning, she called the agency and wanted to see more of me, but I had already started to develop a connection with the lady I would marry.  I really wonder what the fellow found in Moscow that was so good he passed on her


Over the past year, I do wonder how my life would have been different if I gave the other lady a chance. She was beautiful, sweet, and just plain darling. She was DEFINATELY marriage material from what I could tell. I have ZERO regrets, just day dreaming

[Jumper]

I had a 5 year  biz visa, easy to get back then.
  I dint notice any real difference in dating then vs more recent times (keep in mind my more recent times is 9 years ago)

Why? Because frankly back  then yes you stuck out more as a foreigner, and so got more attention over that,and a truly failing economy, but  with that
came an equal ration of interest merely because you were a foreigner.
That might seem advantageous in getting more dates easily,but is it?
Reality is it just meant more sorting out of sincere interest in you as a person instead of a novelty.Relationships come down to two people, so that's no different than today.
The golden age,if there us such a thing in murky MoB land,  is now!
Because any normal balanced woman there is not going to marry or even be interested in you over novelty.
Now there are tons of easy and convenient ways to communicate.
Most any woman has a cell that you can talk to and see on any number of videos apps.

In those alleged greater times, many had to use a work computer or go to an internet cafe just to email you.
International texting wasnt cinoatible or was too expensive for many.
An international call often meant go yo a friend or neighbors home, or the post office had booths to make pay call internationally.
This morphed into the crappy calling cards with lousey service most of the time.
Communication is everything in a burgeoning interest ir relationship, and the hurdle yo communicate were quite real.

It's a piece of cake now in my opinion.
 

On another front,  I raced there at an event  in 98 or 99?  And begged my manager that if I was seriously injured to be dang sure I was in the first available flight to anywhere else,and I meant anywhere!
Lol .The enthusiasm of the crowd was interesting but not unlike anywhere else in Europe at similar events,although it wasn't well promoted there and there were tons of issues on almost every front  related to the impossible and entirely corrupt  bureaucracy.

[JayH]

I had a 5 year  biz visa, easy to get back then.
  I dint notice any real difference in dating then vs more recent times (keep in mind my more recent times is 9 years ago)

Why? Because frankly back  then yes you stuck out more as a foreigner, and so got more attention over that,and a truly failing economy, but  with that
came an equal ration of interest merely because you were a foreigner.
That might seem advantageous in getting more dates easily,but is it?
Reality is it just meant more sorting out of sincere interest in you as a person instead of a novelty.Relationships come down to two people, so that's no different than today.
The golden age,if there us such a thing in murky MoB land,  is now!
Because any normal balanced woman there is not going to marry or even be interested in you over novelty.
Now there are tons of easy and convenient ways to communicate.
Most any woman has a cell that you can talk to and see on any number of videos apps.

In those alleged greater times, many had to use a work computer or go to an internet cafe just to email you.
International texting wasnt cinoatible or was too expensive for many.
An international call often meant go yo a friend or neighbors home, or the post office had booths to make pay call internationally.
This morphed into the crappy calling cards with lousey service most of the time.
Communication is everything in a burgeoning interest ir relationship, and the hurdle yo communicate were quite real.

It's a piece of cake now in my opinion.
 

On another front,  I raced there at an event  in 98 or 99?  And begged my manager that if I was seriously injured to be dang sure I was in the first available flight to anywhere else,and I meant anywhere!
Lol .The enthusiasm of the crowd was interesting but not unlike anywhere else in Europe at similar events,although it wasn't well promoted there and there were tons of issues on almost every front  related to the impossible and entirely corrupt  bureaucracy.

For those of you that have not noticed    AJ ( Jumper) is one of the nicest people here on forum( or anywhere !!)  --just read his comments in the last few days --let alone years of niceness !!

On top of that -for those that do not know--   he is a SUPERSTAR who was right at the top of his international sport -- a legend in fact -- a world wide legend.
I know he will probably be embarrassed  by my post  as I know he would never write such things about himself -he is far too modest.
My bigger point  is that he has rolled with life's high's and lows --  and run with whatever it has served up -- and now a very very happy guy with his FSUW now wife and all the joy bought to them .
Take a bow AJ !!

[rwd123]

It's a piece of cake now in my opinion.

That's exactly why it's not as good.

Adventure has been sucked out of the experience. It's too easy these days. The adoption of western cultural norms means it's less distinct; globalization is creating a homogenous global society - boring!

You simply can't compare the times. A generation ago people were transitioning from living under a closed communist regime to a dynamic and unpredictable post-Soviet world. The current generation in Ukraine is conditioned to being a poor nation predictably exploited at every level of society.

Many women don't want to even talk with foreigners because of the rampant sex tourism. I don't get that vibe in Russia or Central Asia. It's not entirely bleak but it has changed.

I like meeting locals to get a local experience. It is annoying to have to overcome distrust. But like any experience it is subjective and others will have different stories to tell. If not for business links I probably wouldn't be visiting Ukraine. I'd prefer to spend more time in Siberia.

[GenMish]

That's exactly why it's not as good.

Adventure has been sucked out of the experience. It's too easy these days. The adoption of western cultural norms means it's less distinct; globalization is creating a homogenous global society - boring!

You simply can't compare the times. A generation ago people were transitioning from living under a closed communist regime to a dynamic and unpredictable post-Soviet world. The current generation in Ukraine is conditioned to being a poor nation predictably exploited at every level of society.

Many women don't want to even talk with foreigners because of the rampant sex tourism. I don't get that vibe in Russia or Central Asia. It's not entirely bleak but it has changed.

I like meeting locals to get a local experience. It is annoying to have to overcome distrust. But like any experience it is subjective and others will have different stories to tell. If not for business links I probably wouldn't be visiting Ukraine. I'd prefer to spend more time in Siberia.

Agree ,
It is not for the better, much of the adventure and romance has been sucked out of the courtship. Spouses have the rest of their lives to have a intimate relationship, but there is only a brief time to enjoy the courtship experience. Today I feel the vibe as too impersonal and commoditized, I had one lady send me naked photos after only a few weeks of skyping. And nothing led up to it, not even a hint of intimacy at the time. The atmosphere has changed so much, I decided not go last year.


There was also a brotherhood established among the men going, we depended upon each other to bring letters to our ladies, and to bring back letters. The idea of insulting a brother was foolhearty, here takes place too often.  The only computer( a 286 that needed 30 min to warm up) the agency had was confiscated by the mafia, so fax or phone  were the only ways of communicating other than a loyal brother

[msmob]

 The only computer( a 286 that needed 30 min to warm up) the agency had was confiscated by the mafia, so fax or phone  were the only ways of communicating other than a loyal brother

Was it trying to run Windows NT ..? I had a 286... didn't take THAT long to boot

[GenMish]

Was it trying to run Windows NT ..? I had a 286... didn't take THAT long to boot

It was confiscated two weeks before I arrived, so I am not sure.

[Jumper]

Lol Jay!

Naw, just a three digit midget!


I'd say one of the huge differences for me at the time, (keep in mind I was much younger in that long ago ,and far far away galaxy)
 was coming from most scenarios were young women found what I did interesting and even sexy and really cool,even honored to be invited into the circus...
  To understanding that in Fsu culture(then) that the young women felt anyone involved in it foolhardy, irrational, likely a player,  and to be clearly distrusted and avoided for anything serious.
Quite the conundrum hahahaha.
 

[Jumper]

   To the point some are making it's less if an adventure ,less romantic.

I never said it was the same in those regards, and certainly on those fronts cant be compared,in fact communication being difficult was a big part of my point,and yes that alone made a myriad of things both more difficult and more of an adventure.


Sorry, I'll gladly take the experience with contacting,meeting, romancing and ultimately marrying my current wife over those alleged *golden years* of FSu MOB adventures.
   It was entirely romantic without a great deal of past times issues.

No I dont like the homogenizing of cultures, but truly if yiu knew Soviet culture it's not something youd want to preserve as a cultural mentality.


Your assuming that during the transition, that presumed *innocence of culture could last.
Which frankly considering the level of corruption prior, then, and still now is a bit funny.

I do hear you though and understand the loss of cultural differences you miss.

I'm an adventurer, if anything.
And I think back in 99 I posted a TR
that specifically addressed that with my travels and background, that flying to meet a woman for a date anywhere (even in the fsu) was pretty low on the adventure scale.
  So I guess I never romanticized the travel or in country cultural aspect of it,
Merely the relationship aspect.
  I still think my wife thinks it was incredibly romantic for me to build communication and interest and travel to some provincial city just to meet her.


So while I agree its different now, I'll assert if you build a one on one interest with one woman anywhere in the world, it's still romantic to carry that thru to meeting and marriage (if it plans out)
Few women anywhere would not feel that way.


I prefer the ease of communicating and bring able to build that connection, to the difficulty and adventure.

Plenty of cultural adventures left, and I prefer merely geographic outdoor ones.

[JohnDearGreen]

Ukraine visa was needed in 2002 when I made first trips.   Even getting good photos of ladies was sometimes difficult.  Cell phones didn't seem to be common until a few years later.   The few agencies I visited in person in Kyiv were generally pretty honest.   Odessa ladies were already "difficult".   Moscow ladies were already very experienced in the process.  However, some decent looking ladies seemed to have great difficulty attracting any interest then, spending years on the web sites.


As one example, on one trip I ordered contact info for 10 ladies from AFA 2 weeks before I left.  Their ad said the ladies had  phone contact.  But the US AFA site refused to give out phone numbers, only street addresses.   They told me "pay $2 per minute" to call them and ask them for their phone number...   The Ukraine AFA office gave out their phone numbers right away.

[msmob]

I went to Ukraine in 2003 - I picked up a Kyivstar sim on arriving at my apartment in the town centre and both ladies that I met had 'cell phones' ...

[CaptB]

Jumper,


I agree with most of what you say. My experience is with Russia. Back in 1975 I went to school in Honolulu, Hawaii. At a college party I was shooting the dermo with my philosophy professor. He said he had started teaching at the college about 25 years ago (1951). He said at that time there were only a few hotels at Waikiki. He went on about about how beautiful it was then. I took another sip of wine and said "its pretty dam beautiful..........now. I know when I go back to Russia the next time.....there will still be adventures......just different than.....way back when. But these "new, young" guys....that are now complaining that there is no adventure left.....are wrong. When I go back....the edge of "newness" will be taken off a bit. But if these guys go on their first trip.....with their minds open.....and their heads on straight.....it will be pretty dam beautiful (and adventurous)..............................now. I noticed one or two list "zero trips) made so far.......and this kind of negativity.....with no experience to back it up. Already in the hole......before you start.


Capt B

[GenMish]

Jumper,


I agree with most of what you say. My experience is with Russia. Back in 1975 I went to school in Honolulu, Hawaii. At a college party I was shooting the dermo with my philosophy professor. He said he had started teaching at the college about 25 years ago (1951). He said at that time there were only a few hotels at Waikiki. He went on about about how beautiful it was then. I took another sip of wine and said "its pretty dam beautiful..........now. I know when I go back to Russia the next time.....there will still be adventures......just different than.....way back when. But these "new, young" guys....that are now complaining that there is no adventure left.....are wrong. When I go back....the edge of "newness" will be taken off a bit. But if these guys go on their first trip.....with their minds open.....and their heads on straight.....it will be pretty dam beautiful (and adventurous)..............................now. I noticed one or two list "zero trips) made so far.......and this kind of negativity.....with no experience to back it up. Already in the hole......before you start.


Capt B

Hi Capt
I am not spreading negativity, just experience. I am listed as 'zero' trips because my experience is from the early 90s, and family trips since. I would consider myself an expert on how things have changed in Russia having a FSU spouse, friends and inlaws for these many years. My zero listing is because I might try again(I recently divorced), and so far I am at zero trips.

Using your Hawaii metaphor, let me use Kona as an example. Kona was fantastic in the 70s and 80s, overbuilt in the 90s and now VOG(Volcanic Fog) is so oppressing, people often cant breath or see Capt Cooks Monument from any distance

So yes, things can change for the worse. But just because Kona is bad, doesn't mean the Kohala Coast(North of Kona) is bad. It isn't like it was in the 80s and 90s, but at least I would go there. You couldn't pay me to stay in Kona. If I find the right lady, I will give it a shot. 

[krimster2]

Kyiv in the 90s......
hmmmmm....

one time, after “pulling an all-nighter” working, next afternoon went to the local gastanome to score some cans of red caviar, sausages and some Obolon and kleb

in-front of me in line was this Ukrainian girl, from some tiny village, I forget where
so me trying to be an “ambassador of good will”, invited her back to my suite on the top floor of the Dnipro Hotel, note: the chief doorman and I have met, and come to an “understanding” so there will be no “problems”....

the suite is well furnished and upon entry this Ukrainian girl exhibits “shock like behavior” at seeing “such luxury” note: just average 3-4 star hotel by western standards, but it is a large suite

I call up room service and order 2 strawberry daquarris and some snacks
she is shocked and surprised and obviously never had any experience with “room service”
after 2 more  daquarris we are playing strip poker, and I end up looking at what I think are loveliest breasts I have ever seen....

this was a typical day back then

doorman would do “face control” on them for me to avoid conflict, because girls like this were "a dime a dozen"
and for most, I intended to be with them just once (the exceptions were indeed exceptional!)
what a life...

the “killer move” is to put an alpaca blanket on top of your bed, and have her feel it,
can almost guarantee her clothes will be off...


 

[JohnDearGreen]

I went to Ukraine in 2003 - I picked up a Kyivstar sim on arriving at my apartment in the town centre and both ladies that I met had 'cell phones' ...

Cell phone usage surged in the 2005-2007 time frame.  Before that just 10-30% level.
Internet penetration was a somewhat slower pace.

[msmob]

Cell phone usage surged in the 2005-2007 time frame.  Before that just 10-30% level.
Internet penetration was a somewhat slower pace.

ALL the UA ladies I contacted in 2003 had mobile phones and PCs at home ...  Finding a sim card, buying a charger was easy - given the plethora of shops in that market near Maidan back then