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Author Topic: Is there anyway to find out if Ukrainian documents issued for my young son ?  (Read 4867 times)

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Offline monkey

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Could a local Ukr investigator verify if my young Canadian born son has ben issued a Ukr citizen document and travel passport.
Naturally the embassy in my country will not tell me.
Any investigators to recommend? Or other ideas..

Offline BdHvA

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Boethuis from Canada is a jurist and might be able to assist you further.

She will need to know more information such as where was your wife born in Ukraine.

Are you involved in a divorce proceeding?

There are other questions but you need to have answers to questions that will
arise in the first conversation.

Good luck



« Last Edit: February 08, 2019, 09:34:28 PM by BdHvA »
Experierence is not what happens to you. It is what you do with what happens to you. A. Huxley

Online BillyB

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Could a local Ukr investigator verify if my young Canadian born son has ben issued a Ukr citizen document and travel passport.
Naturally the embassy in my country will not tell me.
Any investigators to recommend? Or other ideas..

The more important question may be "Does Canada and Ukraine have an agreement to return kids stolen by one spouse to the other? Write to the Canadian embassy in Ukraine and tell them what you suspect. I'm sure they've dealt with cases like this. If they don't have the answers, they may direct you in the right direction.

http://www.canadainternational.gc.ca/ukraine/index.aspx?lang=eng
There are people that will pass info about you and your family. Do not share info about yourself or share photos as they can search for you on the internet and distribute what they found since they are allowed to participate here.

Offline Boethius

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No, there is no way to find out.


If you are separated, ask your lawyer to make an application to have your wife's passports surrendered, on the suspicion she will flee to Ukraine with your child.  You will need to present some sort of proof, though. 

Ukraine is a signatory to numerous conventions on child abduction, but to enforce them you have to (a) know where the child is located; and (b) have the time and money to expend to enforce your rights.

This post was composed without the aid of google.
To love someone means to see him as God intended him. - Fyodor Dostoevksy

Offline monkey

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The more important question may be "Does Canada and Ukraine have an agreement to return kids stolen by one spouse to the other? Write to the Canadian embassy in Ukraine and tell them what you suspect.
There is no agreement between countries. Contacting the embassy in Kiev is on my list, thank you.

Boethuis from Canada is a jurist and might be able to assist you further.
She will need to know more information such as where was your wife born in Ukraine.
Are you involved in a divorce proceeding?
There are other questions but you need to have answers to questions that will
arise in the first conversation.
Good luck

Wife was born in Brovary.
There are no proceedings started at this time. I do not worry about that if it starts while our son is here. Abduction prior to anything is my fear. If this happens (which I am terrified of, and hope, pray, wish, want to believe that I am wrong, and somehow this is just a major rough patch. She has come right out and said she wants to return to Ukr to live.   

I understand how Ukraine functions and wonder who/how to contact the people who could verify the status info I seek.
Does anyone have knowledge of how Ukraine treats cases of spousal child abduction. Enough of us in this type of a relationship, this issue has must of come up with others.

Boethuis , I will message you after, need to go out now.
thanks!

Offline Boethius

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There is no agreement between countries. Contacting the embassy in Kiev is on my list, thank you.
The agreement on child abduction is an international treaty - The Hague Convention on the Civil Aspects of International Child Abduction.  Canada is a signatory to the Convention, as is Ukraine.  Russia is not.

I don't think the embassy will be of any help to you.

Were I a Ukrainian planning on returning with a young child, and if I researched this particular issue, I would move to Russia, where there is no treaty and, therefore, no worry of my child being returned to a foreign country without my consent.

This post was composed without the aid of google, save for confirming the full name of the applicable treaty.
To love someone means to see him as God intended him. - Fyodor Dostoevksy

Offline monkey

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The agreement on child abduction is an international treaty - The Hague Convention on the Civil Aspects of International Child Abduction.  Canada is a signatory to the Convention, as is Ukraine.  Russia is not.
Hi Boethius,
When i called both the consulate in Toronto and the Ukraine embassy in Ottawa, both said Ukraine is NOT a member of the Hague Convention.  :cluebat:
The embassy consul went so far as to tell me that if my son gets to Ukraine, they would view him as a UA citizen and ignore any requests from my Country. And he mentioned this has happened a few times.
Edit here: It is possible that Ukraine would not view this as an abduction because there is no court order barring my child travel. So maybe this falls outside the realm of Hague. I dunno.
Google says UA is in the Hague. UA embassy here told me no. WTF!

I know I can get a temporary no removal order on my son and ensure he remains here but first I would have to start separation proceedings against my wife. Maybe/possibly delusional and hopeful this will not happen, I don't want too or am not ready to pull the plug on my marriage and maybe see if it can be saved ie: Talking/counselling/better communication) or it could be too late.

In another 1-2 months she will obtain Canadian citizenship also, hence dual UA and CA .

Thanks for your message!
« Last Edit: February 09, 2019, 02:02:31 PM by monkey »

Offline Boethius

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Ukraine is a signatory.  Don't google it, go to the convention.  It lists all the signatories.



This post was composed without the aid of google.
To love someone means to see him as God intended him. - Fyodor Dostoevksy

Offline krimster2

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couldn't you get some kind of restraining order, have the court hold your son's passport, etc...
in other words, assume the worse, then what?

Offline BdHvA

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Monkey, I would try to repair and restore the trust between your wife and your self.

If the relationship has 100% broken down than prepare for a war.
Experierence is not what happens to you. It is what you do with what happens to you. A. Huxley

Offline monkey

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couldn't you get some kind of restraining order, have the court hold your son's passport, etc...
in other words, assume the worse, then what?
Yes, that is the first step, if I separate. here it is a temporary custody order until child custody arrangements are finalized.

Ukraine is a signatory.  Don't google it, go to the convention.  It lists all the signatories.
I see that, thank you.

Were I a Ukrainian planning on returning with a young child, and if I researched this particular issue, I would move to Russia, where there is no treaty and, therefore, no worry of my child being returned to a foreign country without my consent.

Boethius, that is a huge WOW! Of course she has friends and also an aunt there. Russia will allow her to live there and would not provide any assistance to Canada in finding her ? Or my child? Is this the checkmate way for her?

Monkey, I would try to repair and restore the trust between your wife and your self.

I hear you and agree. I am waiting on our first marriage counsellor appointment, though I wonder if it is too little, too late. There are two sides to a story and I also played a part in where we are today. A large part of my frustration is dealing with my spouses out of control and undiagnosed (refuses to acknowledge a problem) OCD. I saw it and accepted it in a milder form before childbirth, however the obsessiveness has gone way overboard since, and has invariably started many disagreements.

Offline krimster2

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dewd, all Ukrainian women are OCD!!!!!  slovo!!
dealing with it is an "art form" that I could write a book about!!
get her a prescription for Zoloft (but Ukrainian OCDers don't like pills)
will COMPLETELY change her behavior after a month or so but they lose their sex drive which is why I don't want Mrs Krimster taking it
so I learned how to live with her OCD, even how to take advantage of it!!!!
I have experienced the zoloft transformation in past girl friends
half the women over 30 in California take anti-depressants

haven't you ever taken a depressed person and cheered them up
this is how you manage your wife and NOT join in the fighting

are you the biological father of the child
if she can get the child to Russia then game over
but she has to have a passport to do that

gotta tell ya a secret regarding Ukrainian women
NEVER, NEVER fight or argue with them, I never do!!!
pointless to really

if it's a money issue, before my wife started her own business I give my wife her own bank account and CC
if she spent all her monthly budget, she'd patiently wait to the next month without haranguing me for money
this is the peaceful way to do it, also I know my wife's big ticket desires, and I ALWAYS do the getting and not her (only my daughters do that)
so she figures ways to put me in a "spending mood" (that's REAL easy for her to do!)

there's an old saying "it takes two to tango"
so when your wife's gyrating to the hormonal tango you should "sit it out" and wait for the storm to die down
learn to adapt



« Last Edit: February 09, 2019, 06:40:43 PM by krimster2 »

Offline monkey

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Thanks for the laugh Krimster2. Obsessive germaphobe here. Not getting into a long rant about it but I had to hug my son tonight before his bedtime bath. I was previously admonished for doing so after a bath, resulting in a second bath needed. This is just a small sample. Multiply times 500 is my daily life.

Boethius, having looked more closely at the Hague website, I concur with what the Embassy of Ukraine in Ottawa previously told me, Ukraine is not a signatory to the 1980 Child Abduction Convention.

The Hague is an umbrella of different international laws.
See Countries here: http://www.hcch.net/en/states/hcch-members
Each country has a list of which international agreements they have agreed to enforce.

Click on a country to see which treaties they have signed on and look for: •Convention of 25 October 1980 on the Civil Aspects of International Child Abduction [28] .
Ukraine has NOT signed this article, though they have signed other agreements. Compare to any countries of your choice.
Ukraine is a safe haven! EDIT TO:  MAYBE I MIS-SPOKE. JUST LOOKED AT UKRAINE AGAIN AND THEY LIST IT. SORRY LOL

From the child abduction page:
Please note that the Permanent Bureau of the Hague Conference has no mandate to assist in individual abduction cases! If you have a question relating to international child abduction and your country is a Party to the 1980 Child Abduction Convention, please contact the Central Authority designated by your country.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2019, 07:50:17 PM by monkey »

Offline krimster2

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"Thanks for the laugh Krimster2. Obsessive germaphobe here. Not getting into a long rant about it but I had to hug my son tonight before his bedtime bath. I was previously admonished for doing so after a bath, resulting in a second bath needed. This is just a small sample. Multiply times 500 is my daily life. "

ohhh, that's bad
had a girl friend in california like that!!!
whenever we left her apartment, she'd take 10 steps and have to turn around and check if she locked the door... every single time, even if I told her, "yes" you locked the door!
Zoloft completely changed that, but it also changed our love life
suggest you read about it, look online how to deal with a depressed spouse (depression/ocd are twins)
whatever advice is given, combining your anger to your wife's anger would be the worse thing to do!
I understand as do most married men, the kind of problem you're dealing with!
harder dealing with this issue with a UW because of cultural and language issues
does your wife appreciate that her behavior isn't normal, or does she believe that it is?
also secondary factors like poor sleep, stress, etc are factors that influence it






« Last Edit: February 09, 2019, 07:57:46 PM by krimster2 »

Offline monkey

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does your wife appreciate that her behavior isn't normal, or does she believe that it is?
also secondary factors like poor sleep, stress, etc are factors

Unfortunately she tries to hide it. Friends have called her out a few times when she said or did something that seemed whacky. She never told me, they did. The only factor is our first child. She is way way overboard about everything.
I try to be supportive, I don't succeed all the time...
I guess ultimately I have two choices, wait out the probable abduction or split..
Goodnight.

Offline krimster2

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it sucks when the love of your child becomes a pain in your heart
there but for the grace of god, could go any or all of us...

is there some other problem going on here as well with your wife?
not prying, just an observation of Ukrainian women
world's worse communicators
if they're depressed about missing home/family/culture they won't talk about it
it's up to you to figure it out
i'm so damned good at interpreting my wife's emotions that SHE ASKS ME how she feels in the morning!
and I reply, "I dunno bitch, make me breakfast" (haha, no I don't!!!, just kiddin, see made ya laugh!)
so these "other factors" if you can relate to what I'm talking about, (just stuff that makes her unhappy) is there something you can do to improve that for her?
does she have a lot of "anxiety" about life in general
did she come from a 'difficult' background
those kinda people have to be handled in a special way
takes a strong man to do it,...

BTW, I grew up with my Ukrainian born baboshka, my father's mother was born in Nezhin Ukraine
she was a germ phobe as well
she also lost 3 of her children to sickness in Ukraine
it made her interesting but wacky
there may be a cause and effect with your wife as well
it takes someone with an immense heart, compassion and understanding to deal with this
and hope, don't forget about hope
forgive this poor excuse of a messenger, but hope my words give you courage
now go and fight this thing, all of life is but a struggle
most men simply struggle with themselves
if you want to find the princess you must first slay the dragon






 
« Last Edit: February 09, 2019, 10:18:21 PM by krimster2 »

Online BillyB

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You're not the first person to deal with potential child abduction from a spouse. The Canadian embassy in Ukraine has certainly dealt with it. After talking with someone with experience in this working at the embassy, come back and let us know what they can and can't do for you if your child is taken to Ukraine without your permission.
There are people that will pass info about you and your family. Do not share info about yourself or share photos as they can search for you on the internet and distribute what they found since they are allowed to participate here.

Offline rwd123

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To my knowledge to obtain any FSU travel documents or government identity documents for minors abroad (visas, passports, inserts to parents' passports, birth certificates, renunciation, etc.) it is required that BOTH parents request/consent in writing. So it's less likely/unlikely she'll obtain a Ukrainian passport if your son is a Canadian citizen (unless she forges your signature).

However, we are talking Ukraine so money and connections means laws are nothing.

Your best bet is to try and salvage the relationship, or at a minimum convince her to stay in Canada. She may suffer/suffered from post-natal depression or similar malady. Without her acknowledging the need for professional help you're pretty much screwed.

If that fails you'll need to obtain a court order prohibiting travel. That requires legal advice, not forum advice.

Offline monkey

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is there some other problem going on here as well with your wife?
not prying, just an observation of Ukrainian women
world's worse communicators
if they're depressed about missing home/family/culture they won't talk about it
it's up to you to figure it out
does she have a lot of "anxiety" about life in general
did she come from a 'difficult' background

BTW, I grew up with my Ukrainian born baboshka, my father's mother was born in Nezhin Ukraine
she was a germ phobe as well
she also lost 3 of her children to sickness in Ukraine
it made her interesting but wacky
there may be a cause and effect with your wife as well
it takes someone with an immense heart, compassion and understanding to deal with this
and hope, don't forget about hope

I have no idea if anything is going on with my wife. But yeah, she hates to communicate what I am supposed to logically know what she wants of me without her saying. I tell her I ain't no Kreskin but that just gets a blank stare.
Tried steering her in a direction of personal counselling, that was met with fire and fury.
Her family seem to be very, very normal. I have had limited success in getting their help though; Language, culture( I really think FSU peeps view anything other then physical ailments as a sign of weakness), and lastly blood is blood.
Thanks Krimster2

You're not the first person to deal with potential child abduction from a spouse. The Canadian embassy in Ukraine has certainly dealt with it. After talking with someone with experience in this working at the embassy, come back and let us know what they can and can't do for you if your child is taken to Ukraine without your permission.

I was able to call our Embassy. I explained the reason for my call and asked to speak with consul. The Ukr receptionist said U needed to send an email. WTH. Ok I did. Not detailed but a rough outline of my concerns. On the maybe good side, the embassy forwarded my email to Global Affairs Canada. This is our federal agency which deals with these types of things. They have now opened a case file for me and assigned a case manager. Far from breaking out the party hat, I expect a lot of bad news when I call this week. However, I know this is the highest I can go and at least get the true answers to my zillion questions. From what I have read, this is the only department which can put in a request for the Ukr State Department to notify if a Ukr passport is requested for my son. 

Part 2 is speak again to a lawyer.

Part 3 is to hopefully solely focus on my relationship, knowing I have some sort of action plan if needed.
Wow. this sucks !

To my knowledge to obtain any FSU travel documents or government identity documents for minors abroad (visas, passports, inserts to parents' passports, birth certificates, renunciation, etc.) it is required that BOTH parents request/consent in writing. So it's less likely/unlikely she'll obtain a Ukrainian passport if your son is a Canadian citizen (unless she forges your signature).
Quote
Hi rwd123, you're partially correct, unfortunately.
If both parents are Ukrainian citizens, then both parents must must sign/consent. However, where a single parent is a Ukr. citizen, only that parent is required to consent. A citizen document and a passport are not only granted if they are requested, but me as a non-citizen has no right to ask if this has happened. Fun eh!

Many western countries, usa and canada included, do not have exit controls at our borders ( those leaving). That creates a whole new hurdle in safeguarding children.

Quote
Your best bet is to try and salvage the relationship, or at a minimum convince her to stay in Canada. She may suffer/suffered from post-natal depression or similar malady. Without her acknowledging the need for professional help you're pretty much screwed.
If that fails you'll need to obtain a court order prohibiting travel. That requires legal advice, not forum advice.
I tend to agree with everything there. But just don't know....preparing for the worst also.

Offline southernX

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monkey how old is your son ??

i think your on the right path , and for what its worth the ukrainian embassy ime are not reliable , it can be hit and miss with how they extend their help to you , in canberra here they are hard and difficult mostly , in st petes and paris i found them to be good and helpful

krimster is on the money with his thoughts

prepare for war imo ,while working on repairing the damage  to save your marriage 
do not show your hand unless you actually must before you need to use it

SX
« Last Edit: February 17, 2019, 11:48:32 PM by southernX »
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Offline krimster2

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"krimster is on the money with his thoughts "

yeah, that Krimster is a pretty sharp guy!!
wait!! I'm Krimster! (blush!)

Offline Jamesukjames

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Monkey I have been where you are exactly the same scenario and I made most of the classic mistakes you are making and eventually ended up divorced on the plus side because I remained a rock my ex eventually moved to live 500 meters from me.  Ok you know the worst case scenarios now put them to the back of your mind.  You will only get out of this situation if you alpha up.  Firstly your wife is acting up because she feels unsupported in some way.  Next realise in the eyes of the law you are nothing more than a sperm donor so any progress upwards from that level is progress.  Divorce and lawyers cost money so now if you don't fight you have at least 100000us dollars to spend on your wife's happiness.  First forget marriage counselling speaking out loud to a third party about your problems 'reinforces the problems just by verbalising them the alpha male your wife wants does not need some do gooder meddling in your marriage he would sort it out himself.  Next support your wife ask what she needs if it's a 2 week holiday to the Ukraine so be it you have a 100000$ us holiday fund.  If she wants to leave assist her in doing so .  Watch monty Roberts the horse whisperer  or read his autobiography that's how to keep a woman.  Just enjoy your wife and child the more you try to hold on to them the more likely you lose them.  All of you should stay well away from any anti depresents they are mind altering and the out come is fairly random.  Just be the man a woman would want to stay with and that's definetly alpha.

Offline Jamesukjames

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If your wife wants to go back to the Ukraine instead of fighting her start planning to move with her.  You could rent out your Canadian property give up your job and try living in Ukraine or you could sell and move.  Get excited by the prospect of moving to Ukraine get your wife to manage the project.   Maybe she will move your family to Ukraine or maybe she will give up trying because of the work load.  I thought marriage was a partnership not you dominating your wife to stay in Canada.  Do you love your wife and would go to the ends of the earth for her or is she a domestic appliance.  It's Ukraine not the ends of the earth.

Offline Jamesukjames

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Have you ever thought your wife's OCD is about having some level of influence in her life.  A  life where she feels unloved and misunderstood.  Would you rather have a fat usa wife eating food and sitting on the sofa all day or a Ukrainian neat freak.  Life is random you have to roll with the punches

Offline Boethius

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Firstly your wife is acting up because she feels unsupported in some way. 

Or she has a mental illness.

Really?  A parent can't touch a child because he's been bathed?  Do you find that in the least normal?

Quote
Next realise in the eyes of the law you are nothing more than a sperm donor so any progress upwards from that level is progress.  Divorce and lawyers cost money so now if you don't fight you have at least 100000us dollars to spend on your wife's happiness.  First forget marriage counselling speaking out loud to a third party about your problems 'reinforces the problems just by verbalising them the alpha male your wife wants does not need some do gooder meddling in your marriage he would sort it out himself. 

That is untrue in Canada.  The starting point is joint custody.  monkey likely would have to pay his wife child support, and amounts are established by the Divorce Act (Canada).  She would receive alimony for a period, to give her time to train for a job, but that is typically very short term.  Is it worse than an intact family?  Of course.  However, your characterization of divorce law is not accurate.

Family counselling is not a "do gooder meddling in your marriage".  Counselling is so that each party can hear the perspectives of someone neutral who can point out each party's intractability.  I don't know if counselling will help, as both parties must be willing to give it a go (i.e., be open to counselling), but it can help.

This post was composed without the aid of google.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2019, 02:54:40 PM by Boethius »
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