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Author Topic: Being a gentleman or a chump?  (Read 3356 times)

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Online krimster2

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Being a gentleman or a chump?
« Reply #50 on: April 13, 2019, 05:06:58 PM »
repeating a failed process and expecting a different outcome is also called....???
don't forget to at least get a t-shirt or a souvenir nesting doll for your daughter before you leave
so you'll have "something" to show for your 2 months in Ukraine...
I'm sure she'll appreciate the thought...






« Last Edit: April 13, 2019, 08:47:24 PM by krimster2 »
вы думаете, что любой из этих людей, даже российских, подозревает, что я русский?

вот как я могу создать американскую личность
Я могу взять напрокат

Online Trenchcoat

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Being a gentleman or a chump?
« Reply #51 on: April 14, 2019, 04:52:59 AM »
I would still be interested to find out what the deal is with the other girl BB either from the girl in splitting from her or maybe any local you may know. To me it looks like it could potentially be another one of these unknown dating situations to WM.

In the book 'Odessa Dreams' which you can get online from Amazon for a few quid or wherever we see described in that book a description of a standard pro dater. Basically they were taking guys to a restaurant the guys were receiving highly inflated bills (profit shared around) and the girls made out they knew too little English that they needed a terp, again at over the odds prices with you've guessed it profits shared around. The guys there were on a tour, a dodgy one where a lot of these pro date girls were present to latch onto them. So it is why I say that your girl does not fall into the typical standard pro date type.

She might be a different type of pro dater as already discussed earlier. My intuition though is suggesting to me that this girl may be ones that locals come up against the same problems you are having. I'm not even sure the girl realises fully what she is doing nor would necessarily accept it if you told her. I think she might see what she does as normal enough dating or at least the way she dates. She may have gotten into a habit of inadvertently crossing the boundary at an early age, not taking dating seriously enough and wondering why guys ditch her.

On a video on YouTube which I have posted up here before and will do later as I've got stuff to do at the moment it features a local guy in Nikolaev, a guy called 'Yuri', he tells the interviewer that local girls are not brought up like in the past, they are too materialistic. So from this and no doubt other accounts can be found I gather that some of the girls at least (the ones not quickly taken) that are left have these problems about them that locals find problematic. My thought is that some of these girls end up turning to foreign rating as apart from no local is willing to take them because of there problems they think a foreign guy will be wealthy enough for it not to be an issue maybe.

My thoughts on that front to many a wealthy guy as we have on this forum a lot probably wouldn't have blinked, maybe would have thought she was being quite modest in what she was asking for. So it may somewhat depend on expectations. I think though that not lying down and taking her demands when it gets to stuff like holidays and the more bigger expenses is probably necessary to avoid going wrong with her, if not from the outset as a bad girl needs setting straight if that is at all possible.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2019, 06:15:48 AM by Trenchcoat »
No Deal is Ideal :)

Offline Olga_Mouse

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Being a gentleman or a chump?
« Reply #52 on: April 14, 2019, 12:06:10 PM »
There's a difference between offering taxi money and being asked for taxi money.
Good women ask for nothing.
But a good man will make sure she gets home (in her own bed by herself on the first date).


+1  :clapping:
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Offline Olga_Mouse

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Being a gentleman or a chump?
« Reply #53 on: April 14, 2019, 12:07:34 PM »

2.  34 and never married needs a believable explanation. 



Hey Gator, I'm 46 and never married. So what?  8)  Don't think I owe an explanation to anyone  :D
"If I get through this job without completely losing my mind, it will be a miracle of Biblical proportions" [Commander Susan Ivanova, Earth Alliance space station Babylon 5]

Offline Olga_Mouse

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Being a gentleman or a chump?
« Reply #54 on: April 14, 2019, 01:07:15 PM »
My thoughts on that front to many a wealthy guy as we have on this forum a lot probably wouldn't have blinked, maybe would have thought she was being quite modest in what she was asking for.


Just my two Russian kopecks: modesty is not it the amount(s), but in the very fact of NOT asking.


This said, 500 + 600 + 800 UAH is quite a sum in UA, keeping in mind the median salary in UA nowadays.


I've spent last weekend in DNK + OZH; a drink in quite a posh restaurant in OZH was 70 UAH only, IIRC.


In the only "after passports" cafe at DNK airport tea (porcelain cup, tea pot, milk or lemon, service) costs 1,5 EUR, with an exchange rate 1 EUR = 30 UAH. Coffee (espresso, cappuccino, americano) = 2 EUR = 60 UAH.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2019, 03:23:42 PM by Olga_Mouse »
"If I get through this job without completely losing my mind, it will be a miracle of Biblical proportions" [Commander Susan Ivanova, Earth Alliance space station Babylon 5]

Online 2tallbill

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Being a gentleman or a chump?
« Reply #55 on: April 14, 2019, 02:53:56 PM »

Hey Gator, I'm 46 and never married. So what?  8)  Don't think I owe an explanation to anyone  :D

You don't owe anyone on a public forum a reason or a story about
why you've never been married, but to a man who was pursuing you
romantically for the purpose of marriage would want to know if he
had a brain.

Anyone pursuing you has a brain if they've managed to get past the
second Skype conversation without getting kicked to the curb.

Likewise if you had just started exchanging exchanging communication
with a man that was 51 years old and never married, you would ask him
a series of questions to determine that he had serious intentions or if he
was a serial bachelor. Sauce Goose/Sauce Gander.

That's my opinion for what it's worth (approximately two Venezuelan Bolívar) 

Bill
FSUW are not for entry level daters
FSUW don't do vague
FSUW like a man of action. Be a man of action 
If you find a promising girl, get your butt on a plane.
There are a hundred ways to be successful and a thousand ways to f#ck it up
Kiss the girl, don't ask her first.

Offline Olga_Mouse

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Being a gentleman or a chump?
« Reply #56 on: April 14, 2019, 03:01:02 PM »
Quote from: 2tallbill

You don't owe anyone on a public forum a reason or a story about why you've never been married, but to a man who was pursuing you romantically for the purpose of marriage would want to know if he had a brain.


Here you're absolutely right :clapping:
Quote from: 2tallbill

Anyone pursuing you has a brain if they've managed to get past the second Skype conversation without getting kicked to the curb.
Shall I take the above phrase as a compliment? (missing a "nail file" smilie, available on Stuart's forum...)
"If I get through this job without completely losing my mind, it will be a miracle of Biblical proportions" [Commander Susan Ivanova, Earth Alliance space station Babylon 5]

Online 2tallbill

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Being a gentleman or a chump?
« Reply #57 on: April 14, 2019, 03:07:31 PM »
repeating a failed process and expecting a different outcome is also called....???

+1 Agreed.

Doing the exact same thing again and again will produce similar results
with dumb luck being the only variable.

I love dumb luck! I've had more than my fair share of it in this life, but I
don't rely on it. I would constantly review my process and tactics looking
for where I made mistakes and where I needed to improve.

FSUW are not for entry level daters
FSUW don't do vague
FSUW like a man of action. Be a man of action 
If you find a promising girl, get your butt on a plane.
There are a hundred ways to be successful and a thousand ways to f#ck it up
Kiss the girl, don't ask her first.

Online Gator

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Being a gentleman or a chump?
« Reply #58 on: April 14, 2019, 03:27:28 PM »

Hey Gator, I'm 46 and never married. So what?  8)  Don't think I owe an explanation to anyone  :D

Some exceptions are self-explanatory, certainly the exceptional

Online 2tallbill

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« Reply #59 on: April 14, 2019, 03:39:36 PM »
Shall I take the above phrase as a compliment?


I was just stating my opinion based on my observations of your public
interactions with others from afar with zero knowledge of your private
life. Who knows? Maybe some handsome Spaniard with six-pack abs
and a vineyard gets all the way to the first Skype message ala Cyrano
de Bergerac, but he needs to have original thoughts once he graduates
to Skype. 

Udachi!

Bill
FSUW are not for entry level daters
FSUW don't do vague
FSUW like a man of action. Be a man of action 
If you find a promising girl, get your butt on a plane.
There are a hundred ways to be successful and a thousand ways to f#ck it up
Kiss the girl, don't ask her first.

Online JayH

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« Reply #60 on: April 14, 2019, 07:25:51 PM »

Just my two Russian kopecks: modesty is not it the amount(s), but in the very fact of NOT asking.


This said, 500 + 600 + 800 UAH is quite a sum in UA, keeping in mind the median salary in UA nowadays.


I've spent last weekend in DNK + OZH; a drink in quite a posh restaurant in OZH was 70 UAH only, IIRC.


In the only "after passports" cafe at DNK airport tea (porcelain cup, tea pot, milk or lemon, service) costs 1,5 EUR, with an exchange rate 1 EUR = 30 UAH. Coffee (espresso, cappuccino, americano) = 2 EUR = 60 UAH.

Posh ?   for UAH 70?    mmm  What for?A coffee?

The totals quoted spent is only about USD$75 .
I note your comments  "quite a sum in UA, keeping in mind the median salary in UA nowadays."-- is bordering on the condescending  inane Trenchcoat attitude -- and fundamental lack of understanding of real income in Ukraine.

SLAVA UKRAYINI  ! HEROYAM SLAVA!!!!
Слава Украине! Слава героям слава!Слава Україні! Слава героям!
 translated as: Glory to Ukraine! Glory to the heroes!!!  is a Ukrainian greeting slogan being used now all over Ukraine to signify support for a free independent Ukraine

Online brownbeard99

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Being a gentleman or a chump?
« Reply #61 on: April 14, 2019, 09:22:37 PM »
But isn't this gal the same one that drank too much ?????????

No, this is another gal.

Online brownbeard99

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« Reply #62 on: April 14, 2019, 10:06:06 PM »
This forum and recent trip to Ukraine (almost over) has given me a pause to think about many things about this dating scene, professional daters, etc.

Yesterday afternoon (Sunday), this girl and I were walking around Kiev city center and walked by this place called “Tiki bar”.  It was interesting looking from the outside. It was a Hawaiian themed place that advertised Mexican food. She was hesitant to go inside because it looked “too fancy” and she didn’t want me to spend too much money... it’s funny how some Ukrainian girls think so different from others!

Anyway, we went to this place and it was a restaurant/night club in the basement. I thought it was strange that there were all these people (mostly girls) dancing in this club on a Sunday afternoon.  After some time, we saw one of these girls getting in an argument with the manager. As it turns out, most (if not all) of these girls were employees of this bar... hired to drum up business and increase alcohol sales.  The girl I was with was very familiar with the job because she was recently offered such employment at another club.

Then I thought about the girl who wanted an iPhone. She worked as a dating interpreter. I don’t think she was part of an organized scam, but she admitted to situations where girls and interpreters will team up and go on many dates together and drag the dates on for many hours to increase revenue that both will share.  She also previously worked for a pay per letter dating site where she would be compensated for her correspondence with foreign men.

I think she probably saw an iPhone as a reasonable request because she has seen first hand, many men throw gifts at women on the first date. I think what she was missing is these men have probably been corresponding with these women for weeks or months, not a couple days like we were.  Incidentally, I got an message from her asking (for the umpteenth time) what she has to do to get an iPhone from me.  I told her that I would not just buy a phone for a girl I just met. I said MAYBE I would buy one for a girl i was in a relationship with. She thought “relationship” to mean sex, so she tried to confirm that I would buy her an iPhone if she had sex with me.  I told her “no” and tried to explain what I mean by a relationship, but she just didn’t get it.

I think some of these women see everything as transactional “I give you this, so now you give me that”. There is no concept of love, or caring, or anything emotional.... it’s about some version of trading sex for money.  I think it’s sad when people can’t see beyond this word view.

I’m not convinced that this mentality is pervasive amongst Ukrainian women, but I think the dating industry definitely attracts such women.  You have a bunch of eager foreign men with money in hand... it’s easy pickings for savvy women... especially when you can make several times the average monthly wages in a weekend.

For those of you who are still curious about the girl I spent money on... I got a message from her last night telling me she is still really interested in me. I told her I’m leaving and don’t have time to see her, but if she is truly interested, she should keep writing to me until I return to Ukraine.  If she continues to write, I will set things straight and let her know that the gravy train will not continue as it has.

Maybe she is happy with her life getting gifts and money from foreign men and wants to keep doing this, but she is 34 and not getting any younger. Maybe she will realize this is not sustainable and will want to actually settle down with a kid as she claims. This realization finally happened to a “hottie” I met prior to my first trip. She is now with a guy in Romania...

I can say that this foreign dating thing has been quite an experience. It’s not as easy as I thought, but it’s not as hard as I thought either. Time to pack my bags and go back to Chicago. I have been gone for almost four months... I miss my bed!

Online JayH

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Being a gentleman or a chump?
« Reply #63 on: April 15, 2019, 12:48:01 AM »
Mr BB --it would seem you have come some distance since you first arrived !! :clapping:

I think some good  observations you have made - I am interested how you see the forum now? ( as distinct from some earlier responses !

One of the points I have made over a period of time is what I call the "normalising" of relationships and contacts  eg  actually making friends in the process -- and I mean just that - a friend/s.
It becomes important for a lot of reasons --you learn a lot more when exposed to more people and learn it faster.
In that process you get to do  normal everyday things -like at home - and become comfortable in the environment.
That is in sharp contrast to the 7 day visit and propose deals of yesteryear! Sure -it could work -- but knowing more is only going to help make better decisions.
Over a period of time -- I became long term friends with many people I have met-- some girls now long ago married and now have children-- some still in the FSU and some around the world.

BB -- on the girl with the car -Is her name Yuliya?




Then I thought about the girl who wanted an iPhone. She worked as a dating interpreter. I don’t think she was part of an organized scam, but she admitted to situations where girls and interpreters will team up and go on many dates together and drag the dates on for many hours to increase revenue that both will share.  She also previously worked for a pay per letter dating site where she would be compensated for her correspondence with foreign men.



I think some of these women see everything as transactional “I give you this, so now you give me that”. There is no concept of love, or caring, or anything emotional.... it’s about some version of trading sex for money.  I think it’s sad when people can’t see beyond this word view.

I’m not convinced that this mentality is pervasive amongst Ukrainian women, but I think the dating industry definitely attracts such women.  You have a bunch of eager foreign men with money in hand... it’s easy pickings for savvy women... especially when you can make several times the average monthly wages in a weekend.


You are "getting" this here !  The web sites/agencies leave the girls with a shocking opinion of men. the paranoid here spend a lot of time on men being scammed -- but all too often fails to recognise what the girls have to endure . The net result of the girls exposure is a very poor impression of western men generally . Also of note  about the dollars -- the girls who work   at it were making over USD$3000 plus a month -- and many $300 or so a week. Plus what they could elicit if the 1 in a hundred actually showed up.
SLAVA UKRAYINI  ! HEROYAM SLAVA!!!!
Слава Украине! Слава героям слава!Слава Україні! Слава героям!
 translated as: Glory to Ukraine! Glory to the heroes!!!  is a Ukrainian greeting slogan being used now all over Ukraine to signify support for a free independent Ukraine

Offline Olga_Mouse

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« Reply #64 on: April 15, 2019, 02:38:34 AM »

Posh?


Yes, one of the best places in OZH.



for UAH 70?   mmm  What for? A coffee?

Yes, a coffee or a pot of mint tea were about UAH 70 \ 75, indeed.


The totals quoted spent is only about USD $75.

Yes, you're right.



I note your comments  "quite a sum in UA, keeping in mind the median salary in UA nowadays."
- is bordering on the condescending  inane Trenchcoat attitude - and fundamental lack of understanding of real income in Ukraine.
My understanding of real income in Ukraine is based on:
- a talk with my childhood friend in OZH, who said the average salary in his city now is around 400 USD;
- official statistics: http://tradingeconomics.com/ukraine/wages
- wages one see published openly at work.ua

Based on all the above, I presume the median salary is around $375-400. This said, $75 paid by OP to the girl would most likely constitute approx. 20-25% of her monthly income. Thus I repeat: this is quite a sum in UA.
"If I get through this job without completely losing my mind, it will be a miracle of Biblical proportions" [Commander Susan Ivanova, Earth Alliance space station Babylon 5]

Offline Olga_Mouse

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« Reply #65 on: April 15, 2019, 03:12:29 AM »
I think some of these women see everything as transactional “I give you this, so now you give me that”.
Well, isn't relationship and marriage all about fair trade?
You give me support - I give you my tenderness.
You improve my life by helping me to move to another country - I improve your life by cooking and cleaning for you, and making sure you have a fresh ironed shirt every morning.
You put that shelf on the wall - I iron your suit.
You give me bright shoulders to hide behind - I give you warm hands that hug you every evening when you return home from work.
I tell you you're the strongest - you tell me I'm the prettiest.


So what's wrong with all these transactions, as long as both sides are giving what they are expected to give - and receiving what they are expecting to receive?
 :popcorn:
"If I get through this job without completely losing my mind, it will be a miracle of Biblical proportions" [Commander Susan Ivanova, Earth Alliance space station Babylon 5]

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« Reply #66 on: April 15, 2019, 03:59:34 AM »
Well, isn't relationship and marriage all about fair trade?
You give me support - I give you my tenderness.
You improve my life by helping me to move to another country - I improve your life by cooking and cleaning for you, and making sure you have a fresh ironed shirt every morning.
You put that shelf on the wall - I iron your suit.
You give me bright shoulders to hide behind - I give you warm hands that hug you every evening when you return home from work.
I tell you you're the strongest - you tell me I'm the prettiest.


So what's wrong with all these transactions, as long as both sides are giving what they are expected to give - and receiving what they are expecting to receive?
 :popcorn:
The problem with a purely transactional marriage is it lacks commitment. If there is a short term situation where debits do not equal credits, the marriage is over.

I was with a woman who married me for my money. I had a huge financial setback years ago. My investments suffered, I lost my job, I had to sell off two houses.  My wife was only there for pure transaction value.  She left me.

Of course, you can’t keep a good man down, so I bounced back and I am now more successful than I ever was before.  Now, my ex wife is begging me to take her back.

Maybe a purely transactional marriage is good for you, but not me. I prescribe to the traditional American marriage vow of “for richer or poorer. In sickness and in health”.  You can criticize me all you want for this value I hold, but there are tens of millions of people that agree with me... and someday I will marry one of those people.

Offline Olga_Mouse

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« Reply #67 on: April 15, 2019, 04:06:20 AM »
The problem with a purely transactional marriage is it lacks commitment. If there is a short term situation where debits do not equal credits, the marriage is over.

I was with a woman who married me for my money. I had a huge financial setback years ago. My investments suffered, I lost my job, I had to sell off two houses.  My wife was only there for pure transaction value.  She left me.

Of course, you can’t keep a good man down, so I bounced back and I am now more successful than I ever was before.  Now, my ex wife is begging me to take her back.

Maybe a purely transactional marriage is good for you, but not me. I prescribe to the traditional American marriage vow of “for richer or poorer. In sickness and in health”. 


You can criticize me all you want for this value I hold, but there are tens of millions of people that agree with me... and someday I will marry one of those people.


Brownbird, first: where exactly in my post do you see words "money" and "wealth"? Do please kindly point out. Thank you  ;)


Second, the situation you described is just about that - not meeting each other's expectations.
Your ex has obviously expected you to guarantee certain level of income; you failed to fulfill that expectation.
You have obviously expected your ex to stay with you through thick and thin; and here she did not meet your expectations.
 :popcorn:
"If I get through this job without completely losing my mind, it will be a miracle of Biblical proportions" [Commander Susan Ivanova, Earth Alliance space station Babylon 5]

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« Reply #68 on: April 15, 2019, 04:15:26 AM »

Brownbird, first: where exactly in my post do you see words "money" and "wealth"? Do please kindly point out. Thank you  ;)


Second, the situation you described is just about that - not meeting each other's expectations.
Your ex has obviously expected you to guarantee certain level of income; you failed to fulfill that expectation.
You have obviously expected your ex to stay with you through thick and thin; and here she did not meet your expectations.
 :popcorn:
If you don’t know the difference between sacred marriage vows and unstated expectations, there is no point in discussing this with you any further.

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« Reply #69 on: April 15, 2019, 05:03:16 AM »
If you don’t know the difference between sacred marriage vows and unstated expectations, there is no point in discussing this with you any further.


Well, do please enlighten me  :popcorn:


You really think that "sacred marriage vows" shall hold people together even in cases when one is not meeting the expectations of another?


E.g. expectations not to practice physical and psychological abuse, expectations to lead, expectations to care for the comfort in the joint household, expectations to support, etc.?
"If I get through this job without completely losing my mind, it will be a miracle of Biblical proportions" [Commander Susan Ivanova, Earth Alliance space station Babylon 5]

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« Reply #70 on: April 15, 2019, 06:40:09 AM »
Well, isn't relationship and marriage all about fair trade?
You give me support - I give you my tenderness.
You improve my life by helping me to move to another country - I improve your life by cooking and cleaning for you, and making sure you have a fresh ironed shirt every morning.
You put that shelf on the wall - I iron your suit.
You give me bright shoulders to hide behind - I give you warm hands that hug you every evening when you return home from work.
I tell you you're the strongest - you tell me I'm the prettiest.


So what's wrong with all these transactions, as long as both sides are giving what they are expected to give - and receiving what they are expecting to receive?
 :popcorn:
Although I don't necessarily think about this very often, it sounds about right. 

Fathertime!   
I just happened to be browsing about the internet....

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Being a gentleman or a chump?
« Reply #71 on: April 15, 2019, 06:52:46 AM »


You really think that "sacred marriage vows" shall hold people together even in cases when one is not meeting the expectations of another?


The vows merely express in words what should already be deep-seated in the heart - commitment to each other.

Nothing is constant in life but change.  Sometimes the change is better, sometimes worse.  Even when "worse" happens, many aspects of life likely remain "good."  Find solace in those aspects and stay committed to the relationship while striving together to right the ship. 

In a relationship,  one must be prepared to make some accommodations, temporary or permanent, because none of us are perfect.   

Offline fathertime

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Being a gentleman or a chump?
« Reply #72 on: April 15, 2019, 06:53:57 AM »
The problem with a purely transactional marriage is it lacks commitment. If there is a short term situation where debits do not equal credits, the marriage is over.

Maybe a purely transactional marriage is good for you, but not me. I prescribe to the traditional American marriage vow of “for richer or poorer. In sickness and in health”.  You can criticize me all you want for this value I hold, but there are tens of millions of people that agree with me... and someday I will marry one of those people.

My impression is you spent a few months in the Russian/Ukraine area.   If indeed you view marriage as you stated above, you will indeed want to spend a good amount of time with whoever you decide to eventually bring back.   In between trips, you can always look around the USA in your hometown as well.  The ladies abroad are likely younger/prettier but for what you state you are looking for, it can be found here among ladies right here in the USA.   Foreign women/brides aren't going to be able to know/understand you on the same level as somebody who speaks your language and knows the idiosyncrasies of people in the US culture.   Over a period of years that does of course change and at some point your potential foreign wife will know you as much as you let her know you.   

Personally, I went for the younger/prettier option, but I may not take marriage quite as seriously as you are stating.  I'm sure it is possible to have both younger/prettier AND to have a woman that is seriously devoted even if you aren't fulfilling her needs for a period of time, but I'd say that is probably very very rare.   

Continued good luck in your search, and thanks for sharing aspects of your story. 

Fathertime!   
I just happened to be browsing about the internet....

Online krimster2

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Being a gentleman or a chump?
« Reply #73 on: April 15, 2019, 08:08:19 AM »
promises can ALWAYS be broken
relationships do not ACTUALLY come with guarantees
money is not the only currency being exchanged

don’t believe in something for nothing
everything in nature operates according to an equilibrium
what you receive must always be balanced against what you give




вы думаете, что любой из этих людей, даже российских, подозревает, что я русский?

вот как я могу создать американскую личность
Я могу взять напрокат

Online Hammer2722

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Being a gentleman or a chump?
« Reply #74 on: April 15, 2019, 09:08:28 AM »
Salsa lessons - 120 UAH for one lesson, 650 UAH for 8 lessons.

End result will be once she thinks she has received enough, she will suddenly become "busy".

This post was composed with the aid of google in looking up the cost of salsa lessons.

Either that or she is just getting started and is testing the waters with BB. She wants to see how far she can go with her requests. She has already dropped the vacation in Europe hint.... :popcorn:
every ship can be a minesweeper at least once...

 

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