Why RW marry abroad?

[andrewfi]

Sorry for the double post.

In historical context it s difficult to suggest an alternative route to privatisation of state owned assets than that taken in Russia.

Whoever had taken over those assets was going to become hugely wealthy. It is a given. The good thing is that the people, on the whole, who did take over the assets have done very well with them. These people were the brightest and best in Russia and the ones best adapted to run them.

Comparisons with other FSU privatisations are instructive here.

That is not to say that the situation was perfect, it was, and is, not. But Chubais has noted that at the time the enterprises were being stolen piecemeal by managers, directors and staff. Inflation was destroyng the value of assets and there was no money to reinvest or modernise. The entire economy was essentially moribund.
Had there been a more protracted process then there would have been nothing left to privatise. What hapepned was that control went to people who knew people. In the same way that I might consider a contractor for a job - I will, if in a hurry, choose the people I know, people who have already demonstrated requisite honesty, ability, imagination etc etc. If I have longer, I will expand the field to include unknowns.

It is easy to be jealous, easy to criticise with hindsight and much to be learned. But we should not be overly critical of these people who were in a period of tectonic shift, where everything they knew was changing and, lest we forget, where the advice from (largely) US advisors was to carry out the privatisations exactly as they were. Possibly Chubais' biggest single error was in listening to US paid and instructed consultants.

[Elen]

That would be nice to do but I have an AJAX course I am taking, learning Samba, and last but not least I am in the middle of three books right now.  Where did the summer go?  Are serfs who were forced to marry through arranged marriages in love?  They may have grown to love one another but that is doubtful.  Serfs were really no different then the slaves here in the US.  They were property and were treated like its.  Martin Bruber has a concept called Ich-du where he talks about people viewing other people in 1st, 2nd and 3rd person perspectives.  Being viewed as an it is not very appealing, I realize this is a little off poit.

Though find a time read something from Russian classic because you spoke not only about period before 1861 but exactly about 15 last years as if  all time before we all were forced to marry by any other reason but not love

Well if they both married for love why are they now divorced?  What is your definition of love?  That is an important insight and could make this conversation that goes nowhere.

If people knew where love went as time passed  and why we hurt those who we loved more than all others then there were nobody here at this board

  I do not know who is the most corrupt but I think Gorbachev was maybe coming to an understanding of some of his own problems.  Remember he was part of the government.  As my current girlfriend says all forms of government are corrupt.

Well you don't know so I tell you Russia never knew SUCH level of corruption which we got under democrates

I do not. It is just the way the world works sometimes.  When you have a limited number of options it forces you to things that are not for idealistic reasons.  My point with the divorce rate statistic is that if the both of you marry for love and then you get divorced because are many FSU woman say the man could not handle his responsibility and left then he did not marry for love.  My definition of love is the willingness to sacrifice my life for my loved ones, by the way that is my view of friendship also.  Under this definition the man leaving means he did not love his wife.  And in our conversation we are talking about love.

Love lives 3 years . Heard such definition? ( or have watched such movie? )

Since you edited out my point about these being political prisons that, new point here that I assmed wrongly you would understand, would force people to take the world view held by the state.  Whatever screwed your psyche is whatever youwant to blame it on, sorry cheap shot.  I do not know ho old you are I was just picking a quick example.  I do not read Russian so ptting it in your post is a waste of time.

I didn't not edit out your point I just didn't get it and posted you how your point looked for me - about WHY we got an opportunity to marry for love ONLY 15 years ago ( under deRmocrates)

Anyone knows that polar opposites on a are actually almost the same in their thinking.  The scale is not a straight line but one the curves out and downward towards the two end points.

If you are going to quote medo so correctly and do not edit my statements to help your arguments.  You are taking this to personally so I will not answer any more of your post.

One more time I do NOT edit your statement I just do NOT get them or get them in MY way. Though if you are not going to clarify your statement about what such we got in last 15 years that changed our reasons for marry then let it be so  <shrug>

Ps

I would say that the 40-50 million people that Stalin and his fiends had exterminated were the greatest asset that Russian leaders let go.  I do not know about you but I think life is worth more than any other asset.

I would not suggest you to start a disput about numbers of Stalin's victims - it's just a waste of time with you foreigners Because you can't get and don't want to get why those who were supposed to suffer under that Stalin cried at his funeral, why those who lived in those years had not idea about 40-50 millions ( while everybody was aware about 20 milns lost during WWII as almost every family had somebody among those 20 mlns ) and why till now more than 50% people here don't see Staling only in black-white light and think that he has done for the country more good than bad things 
And you may think what you wish and judge  like you wish but ONLY your own life which you know about

[Bruno]

If you are going to quote medo so correctly and do not edit my statements to help your arguments.  You are taking this to personally so I will not answer any more of your post.

Christopher, you reaction surprise me !!! If you are here, it is because you are or wish marry a RW...

Be aware that in case of discussion with your RW, she will certainly use your own words, transform them a little and use them against you... If you react with your RW like you have with Elen, the future seem not bright... better stop seeking a RW... RW are maybe a gift but not a easy gift...

[Turboguy]

Andrewfin,  I am sure things like that may have a little variance but definately the ones they rate on the top don't belong on the bottom.   Yes, Maybe # 22 should really be 23.   

I have been watching our personal freedom erode for a long time.  I think IMBRA is just another step in the long decline.   That one did upset me a little more than some though.   If I was 21 and had seen what I had seen and felt the way I am starting to I think I would be looking for houses down the street from you. 

[andrewfi]

TG ~ As a result of my studies of the FSU I came to an insight. In societal terms we all live in a box, the box may be larger, or smaller, in one country or another and it may change size over time, or even change shape.

Thing is, that we, most of us, never touch the sides of the box. But if we do, the bad things happen. We die, we go to prison, we are ostracised, we live in poverty. But as I said, most of us never touch the sides and becasue we do not, we never quite understand the plight of those who do. Your country, in common with many others is undergoing a rapid change both in size and shape of the box, but stil, most do not notice or know. They did not touch the sides yet. IMBRA is a change in the shape of the box and reduction in its size. It is only a small change compared to the Patriot Act and other iniquities, but you are about to touch the side. Photoguy just did - his life and options have jsut been restricted in a manner that is unrelated to his behaviour.

I did not move to Estonia to be 'free'. I came here to study and work, but I am not so unobservant as to not notice the changes in my home country and yours. If I were in your country I probably would not touch the sides of the box. But I can see them now and that is almost as bad.

The box is why millions still rememebr Stalin with genuine respect and affection. He did lead the country through a period of transformation and growth. His leagcy stood the USSR in good stead for many years after his death and people who touched the sides of the box - well they must have done something wrong mustn't they? Just as most Americans would say of the hostages in Guantanamo, or random people hauled off the streets in the continental USA. They must have done something wrong or the FBI would not have wiretapped them or taken them away - mustn't they? ???

[Admin]

TG ~ As a result of my studies of the FSU I came to an insight. In societal terms we all live in a box, the box may be larger, or smaller, in one country or another and it may change size over time, or even change shape.

Thing is, that we, most of us, never touch the sides of the box. But if we do, the bad things happen. We die, we go to prison, we are ostracised, we live in poverty. But as I said, most of us never touch the sides and becasue we do not, we never quite understand the plight of those who do. Your country, in common with many others is undergoing a rapid change both in size and shape of the box, but stil, most do not notice or know. They did not touch the sides yet. IMBRA is a change in the shape of the box and reduction in its size. It is only a small change compared to the Patriot Act and other iniquities, but you are about to touch the side. Photoguy just did - his life and options have jsut been restricted in a manner that is unrelated to his behaviour.

I did not move to Estonia to be 'free'. I came here to study and work, but I am not so unobservant as to not notice the changes in my home country and yours. If I were in your country I probably would not touch the sides of the box. But I can see them now and that is almost as bad.

The box is why millions still rememebr Stalin with genuine respect and affection. He did lead the country through a period of transformation and growth. His leagcy stood the USSR in good stead for many years after his death and people who touched the sides of the box - well they must have done something wrong mustn't they? Just as most Americans would say of the hostages in Guantanamo, or random people hauled off the streets in the continental USA. They must have done something wrong or the FBI would not have wiretapped them or taken them away - mustn't they? ???

Andrew,

This has to rank as one of your most brilliant posts. At least, of those I have seen - and I have seen quite a few.

You presented your hypothesis and opinions clearly and were illustrative. You left the reader pondering important questions. At least, I hope they ponder them.

Great post. Seriously.

- Dan

[Elen]

Well people who tryied to "touch sides" of the USSR's box risked not only with their own lifes but to ruin the whole box on heard of all others. In Stalin's times they were not allowed to "touch" and in Gorbache's-Eltcin they did manage to ruin that box with their mindless "touching" So now we have what we have - ruins as those "touchers" could only touch but were unable to build any new box
As for you foreigner then all you could do was to make your "guesses" how life was in "alient" box - nothing more

Did  get your theory right? 

[BC]

As for you foreigner then all you could do was to make your "guesses" how life was in "alient" box - nothing more

Did  get your theory right? 

Elen,

I think you just expounded on Andrews box concept.. I think you got it right.

Looking back, were your perceptions (in USSR times) of what was inside other peoples 'boxes' correct?

Andrew,

I love this concept.. am finding it quite 'fitting' to many areas.. thanks!

[Elen]

Looking back, were your perceptions (in USSR times) of what was inside other peoples 'boxes' correct?

I was too young to be interesting too much what's there in your shining capitalistic boxes  But anyway I really could not recall that I heard too many bad things about your awful capitalism In addition we always trusted little to our mass media ( otherwise you at the west like I had a chance to see)
So I just knew I knew little about other boxes And if you noticed I never argued with you about life in the west ( well except gumburgers  )  I only fight your attempts to say ME how bad I lived

[Christopher]

Christopher, you reaction surprise me !!! If you are here, it is because you are or wish marry a RW...

Be aware that in case of discussion with your RW, she will certainly use your own words, transform them a little and use them against you... If you react with your RW like you have with Elen, the future seem not bright... better stop seeking a RW... RW are maybe a gift but not a easy gift...

Thanks for the warning Bruno.  My experience is that the majority of men and women do this;)

[Christopher]

The box is why millions still rememebr Stalin with genuine respect and affection. He did lead the country through a period of transformation and growth. His leagcy stood the USSR in good stead for many years after his death and people who touched the sides of the box - well they must have done something wrong mustn't they? Just as most Americans would say of the hostages in Guantanamo, or random people hauled off the streets in the continental USA. They must have done something wrong or the FBI would not have wiretapped them or taken them away - mustn't they? ???

Andrew I think as human beings we have lost the ability look outside ourselves.  That is one thing that seperates humans from animals.  I do not necessarilly think that people will assume that somene is guilty becuase the were taken away by the authorities. People inside his community will probably blame the corrucption of the government.  This is the reason why revolutions happen.  There are always cattle who will agree with whatever some authority figure tells them.

[andrewfi]

Christopher,

in Russia today almost everyone who is arrested and who goes to court is found guilty. The situation is changing slowly. But most people accept and 'know' that if somebody is arrested then he must have done something wrong.

As an outsider looking in I see that Russians are moving toward a less accepting and more sceptical worldview at the same time that the US is becoming more accpeting and less sceptical.

Of course there will always be some who cry out 'wrong, wrong', but in doing so, well, they just touched the sides of the box didn't they.

One can look at it in another way, with a different analogy. Look at the hierarchy of needs. People will not, in general, be interested in philosophy or politics if they are hungry or cold. This is simple truth and fits the hierarchy of needs hypothesis. As Russians find life becoming easier and more pleasant they will be and are becoming more interested in things outside of the purely visceral. Of course there has always been the intelligentsia, that band of unhappy box touchers...
(in the end this is why the MOB industry exists in Russia and why the number of women willing to join it is falling!)

I was in Saint Petersburg attending lectures given by a political scientist of some repute. We were awaiting the results of the election in which Putin was expected to win his first presidential seat. Our lecturer talked of his relationship with Putin, his invitation to join with him as an advisor and the reason that he did not take the position. Putin had already made a policy choice to restrict media freedoms to some degree. He felt (I think rightly) that dissent would be a distraction from the business of growth and strengthening. He did not see that this situation should last indefinately, but until Russians were fed and housed in a manner appropriate to a strong and wealthy country.
Our guy felt this was wrong - perhaps influenced by the political talk show he hosted at the time and his knowledge of the implications for it. He did believe in Putin as a man and a candidate, it was clear the guy had tremendous respect for Putin.
He had refused to join with Putin because he believed that there should not be any form of restriction. A proud member of the intelligentsia.
Anyway, he lost his TV show shortly after the election.

[BC]

Christopher,

Comparing with cattle is quite obscene.  I spent a good bit of time with the folks in RU and never heard any words of malcontent regarding the 'good ol' USSR'.  Even discussed subjects such as Stalin and was quite surprised with the respect they had for him.

My wife having left her 'box' has noted differences, or things that did not 'jive' with her history lessons in school.  Most of these tidbits were not learned from western media but from RU sources.  I think that FSU folks are going through a period of discovery and reflection.

This discovery process is not one sided though.. As the years go on there is much about our history that I have leaned also differs from my schooling.

Propaganda is not limited to FSU.  Westerners have learned to use this tool as well.

If you insist on your cattle analogy learn to accept they are in your back yard as well.

[Doug S]

Hey Guys,

I feel just a little responsible, as this argument seems to have digressed from a comment I made about "stability" early in this thread.

That seemed to have spawned all of these different permutations of ideas and theories about what constitutes "stability," what a Russian woman's idea of "stability"  might be, what "stability" might mean in the context of Russia or the USSR, and finally Stalin vs. "stability," and even "was Stalin mentally stable?"

As usual, the missing ingredient is the Russian woman point of view. That is with the exception of Helen, of course. But I'm confused about Helen. I'm not so sure she represents the point of view of a Russian women who is or desires to be happily married to a Westerner and living in the West. It seems more like she is just representing Russians in general, women in general, and then Russian women sometimes, in that order. If anybody (Including Helen) would like to straighten me out on her exact status, I would appreciate that. It's always easier to relate to people if you know where their coming from (figuratively speaking).

I think Chris made a valiant effort at a theory, based on his limited exposure to and experience with Russians, and again, with Russian women who are interested in striking up new lives in the west and marriages with Westerners. And guys like BC, who are closer to the source are doing a good job of pointing out the naivete of that theory. Hell, I might've come up with something like that ten years ago before I met Olga or even considered the real state of FSU, and how it got to where it is now.

Being on the inside certainly gives us "husbands" of Russian women some good insight and advantage. And we need to keep in sight that one of the main purposes of this board is to somehow present it so that those who follow can benefit from it.

A trained journalist, I always like to hang on to the headline - "Why RW marry abroad?" (which is grammatically incorrect, by the way. Why you talk like this?)

Even though I m a man I am going to bravely posit a theory about women, something that took me 40 years to arrive at.

Women may be looking for a lot of different things in a mate - handsome, powerful (money brings power, etc.), funny, good in bed, whatever. But all of those things are eventually overridden by their primal female mission of propagating the species (i.e. having children, which in most cultures means getting and staying married). Propagating the species means not only having the children, but providing a safe, secure and STABLE environment for them so they (and hence the species) can grow strong and survive. Here I am talking about women in general. And that becomes the bottom line for most women, after they have sorted out all the rest.

Russian women, because of their culture, seem to be more in touch with that bottom line than women from other countries and cultures (especially Western). I'm not going to pontificate on why, although I have views on that. Probably best as a thread of its own. What I am trying to say here is that Russian women tend to know exactly what they are looking for in terms of a mate, very early in their lives. They don't seem to need to do as much sorting out as women from other cultures. I daresay, most seem to know what they are looking for and are ready for it as early as 20 years old. (Compared for example, to Paris Hilton.)

That said, you can imagine how well grounded Russian women 25 years old and above are in this sense. If they haven't already found that mate, they are pretty much on a mission. Lead, follow, or get out of the way, but don't interfere with that mission.

That's why they'll let you get them a green card even if you're not the exact mate they had in mind. The green card gets them one step closer to the goal. At least the safe, stable environment with higher chance of survival has been obtained. If they don't already have a child, mating can come later. But not too much later, and that's why many always seem to be in such a hurry to leave the "mule."

If they already have children, the mission is a little bit different, they need to get them and the kid into the safe, stable environment to increase their chances of survival as a family. Mating may or may not be over. The mate's role is a little bit different, but not much. The mate's inter-family politics; however, are much different. Which sheds some light on those MOB marriages. But again, another thread.


Communism, the USSR, and Stalin have nothing to do with this. Sure, Russian women had relatively stable environments when the Soviet Union was hitting its stride. In fact, thats why there are so damn many Russian women out there looking for husbands; they appear to have had their own baby boom that was perhaps inspired by the sense of security and stability that environment provided. Whether a real or false sense is a debate that's not important here. What's important is that they made a lot of Russian babies, many of which grew up to be Russian babes looking for husbands.

(I'm going to pause here and reiterate that, unfortunately and un-idealistically, "financial stability" is a big factor in the "stability" that Russian and all women are looking for in terms of fulfilling the mission.)

These Russian women are far removed from the Big Brother/political type of security or stability that Chris postulated here and others argued about. The erosion of their stable society began in the 80s and has continued in a downward spiral ever since. In the back of their minds, Russian women may or may not know or want to admit that the stability they want and need to fulfill their missions as women in general is related to politics - Capitalism vs. Communism, Kennedy vs, Stalin, etc. At any given time in history either one of those models could look good or bad in terms of providing that stability, depending on the circumstances, point along the curve, etc.

Most Russian women don't care whether its Capitalism, Socialism, Totalitarianism, or Buddhism that creates a stable environment. They just want to be in that stable environment. RW Marry abroad because "abroad" provides a better environment for them to fulfill their missions as women in general. Not because their American husband's prosperity and powerful position as Vice President of Weenie-Soft provides them with a surrogate of the old Soviet State. But because it provides it puts a roof over the family's head and food on its table, and is most likely to last through their lifetime

DS

 

[Elen]

Who do I represent ?  I have not idea I'm Russian woman who is average in too many meaning to be any exception to the rule  who posts here her viewpoint which a majority cases are the same to what her friends have And this Russian woman has no desire to move to any country because she believes in one simple Russian idea Где родился, там и сгодился

And if I'm different to somebodies then those somebodies  are women who decided that grass was greener across an ocean and all males there were princes in shining armour That's why I constantly ask-suggest-offer-demand that you stop to write "Russian women" and start to post your viewpoints-ideas-experiences about "Russian women who decided to marry abroad" 
 I don't say that those women are such  different to me in everyday life
(here I agree with previouse idea about "stability" in females viewpoint - it's nothing to do with politic at all) It's just that game which is called "find and yoke foreigner husband before somebody younger than you managed to do that"  - has its own rules which I could never  follow.

[Bruno]

As usual, the missing ingredient is the Russian woman point of view. That is with the exception of Helen, of course. But I'm confused about Helen. I'm not so sure she represents the point of view of a Russian women who is or desires to be happily married to a Westerner and living in the West. It seems more like she is just representing Russians in general, women in general, and then Russian women sometimes, in that order.

Doug, "the point of view of a Russian women who is or desires to be happily married to a Westerner and living in the West" will not be very different from Helen... Russian are very very patriot and don't like that someone, same the Western husband, say somethig bad about the mother country... only Russian are allowed to say bad thing over Russia... 

And be careful with the strange way of thinking from women... If you say to your RW that you don't like Russia, she will reply : "You don't like Russia, so you don't like me !"

[Elen]

You are wrong Bruno It;'s not about our patriotism ( or at least not only abot it)  It's mostly about your western ignorance and belive in only your wetern "rightness"  about life in OTHER country

[Bruno]

You are wrong Bruno...

Guys, you see... never argument with a RW...

PS : my previous post was based on MY personal experience with men and women from FSU, not from some litterature or historic book 

[Son of Clyde]

I have been trying to determine if I have ever seen a woman from India with an American husband. This seems to be a very rare situation if it happens at all. Probably due to arranged marriages. But FSU and Phillipines are prime countries for AM seeking a wife overseas.

Maybe it is more that we are able to ponder here. Maybe it is a little of everything we have discussed and maybe it is all comes down to an individual's choice.

If these two countries do have a much larger female population, it may explain another thing. Maybe the good men are taken. If it is economic maybe there is a better life to be had in the US.

I am seeing from this thread just how complex it can be. We will never know all the answers.

[Elen]

Guys, you see... never argument with a RW...

PS : my previous post was based on MY personal experience with men and women from FSU, not from some litterature or historic book 

You previous post sounded like the main reason of not arguing  with RW should be a wish not "upset" her patriotism. And I was about an advice to drop such talks because you have not lived here, have not idea what would be better  for those who live here and should not measure those who live here with your western scale counting your system of value like the only one right

[BC]

My wife is very much a 'stand by your man' type woman.  We can have our problems but they stay at home and get resolved there. In public, even among friends she will fight like a cat to defend our relationship.

She also has very little interest in politics but will stand up for her country and bring forth some very interesting arguments under fire of critique.

I think most WM will simply have to accept the fact they cannot have it both ways...

IMHO Elens' attitudes are more the 'rule' than the exception and in the end that's quite ok.

[Admin]

I have been trying to determine if I have ever seen a woman from India with an American husband. This seems to be a very rare situation if it happens at all. Probably due to arranged marriages. But FSU and Phillipines are prime countries for AM seeking a wife overseas.

Maybe it is more that we are able to ponder here. Maybe it is a little of everything we have discussed and maybe it is all comes down to an individual's choice.

If these two countries do have a much larger female population, it may explain another thing. Maybe the good men are taken. If it is economic maybe there is a better life to be had in the US.

I am seeing from this thread just how complex it can be. We will never know all the answers.

Some things change - and some things stay the same.

I spent substantial time in India, and have a number of friends whom I remain in contact with. I also know of quite a few AM married to Indian ladies. In all cases, they were guys working there on expat contracts and had a reasonably long time to get to know the lady and her family - but I suspect my sampling is VERY skewed as my business activities there kept me closely ensconced with the work. Still, it was not terribly uncommon to run across an American guy with an Indian lady. And BTW - I have written about this previously - BY FAR the most beautiful woman I have ever seen in person, was an Indian lady who was at the July 4th celebration at the US Embassy in New Delhi. Absolutely stunning in every way - so much that it seemed no-one could take their eyes off her.

On the RWD sister boards, there are Asian and Latin sections - and not surprisingly, the issues there are very similar (or identical) to the issues normally debated here. I don't think there are many differences in the issues facing guys traveling to Latin America, Asia, or the FSU - other than travel and logistical issues.

I think there is a percentage of people who are involved in this because the economic disparity affords them choices in some countries they would not have otherwise. I think there is a percentage of people who are involved in this because they have a spirit of adventure and the international nature appeals to them. I think there is a percentage of people involved in this who simply decided they would cast a wider net for their life-partner. Some are here by design - and some are here purely by chance.

No-one knows now, nor with they likely ever know, the relative proportions of people who fall into these various categories.

And BTW - I think things have been like this since time and beginning. I suspect there have always been wealthier nations - which created wealthier citizens - and those citizens benefited from economic disparities in the seach for a mate. I think there are some who have always felt a spirit of adventure and were compelled to venture the world, and wanted to find their partners someplace other then their backyard. While I do not have anything tangible to defend this hypothesis, I imagine a study into historical records might prove the hypothesis accurate.

FWIW

- Dan

[andrewfi]

I have been trying to determine if I have ever seen a woman from India with an American husband. This seems to be a very rare situation if it happens at all. Probably due to arranged marriages. But FSU and Phillipines are prime countries for AM seeking a wife overseas.

Maybe it is more that we are able to ponder here. Maybe it is a little of everything we have discussed and maybe it is all comes down to an individual's choice.

If these two countries do have a much larger female population, it may explain another thing. Maybe the good men are taken. If it is economic maybe there is a better life to be had in the US.

I am seeing from this thread just how complex it can be. We will never know all the answers.

Maybe a reason why many men seek women from the FSU is that they are, to a much greater degree than women from the Phillipines is that to a much greater degree the women from the FSU are PLU.

I am sure that if the women from the Phillipines were more anglo looking then most guys here would include them in their search.

[SANDRO43]

Women may be looking for a lot of different things in a mate - handsome, powerful (money brings power, etc.), funny, good in bed, whatever. But all of those things are eventually overridden by their primal female mission of propagating the species (i.e. having children, which in most cultures means getting and staying married). Propagating the species means not only having the children, but providing a safe, secure and STABLE environment for them so they (and hence the species) can grow strong and survive. Here I am talking about women in general.

This also explains why women in general often prefer slightly older men, viewing them as probably more successful family providers.

Now it would also be interesting to conjecture why many normal FSUW (i.e. scammers excluded) decide to seek decidedly older Western men :
1. Disappointment with their home experiences in same age bracket ? 
2. Difficulty in handling foreign bureaucracies (visas, permits, etc.) ?  ???
3. Little or no competition from Western women in their same age bracket  ? 
4. Expectations of earlier turnover ?  :angel:

But maybe this deserves another thread. 

[Christopher]

Christopher,

Comparing with cattle is quite obscene.  I spent a good bit of time with the folks in RU and never heard any words of malcontent regarding the 'good ol' USSR'.  Even discussed subjects such as Stalin and was quite surprised with the respect they had for him.

My wife having left her 'box' has noted differences, or things that did not 'jive' with her history lessons in school.  Most of these tidbits were not learned from western media but from RU sources.  I think that FSU folks are going through a period of discovery and reflection.

This discovery process is not one sided though.. As the years go on there is much about our history that I have leaned also differs from my schooling.

Propaganda is not limited to FSU.  Westerners have learned to use this tool as well.

If you insist on your cattle analogy learn to accept they are in your back yard as well.

Bruno,
I am sorry if I implied that Russian people are cattle.  My point is that there are always a large number of people who do not think for themselves and let someone else do it for them.  A classic example would be Feudalistic Japan, current American advertising, and Jihadist.  There are many people who do not care what is done.  Look at public reaction to secret wiretapping in the US.  I realize the US is full of people like this.  That is why a company like Micro$soft can make billions of dollars a year for a shoddy product. 

I read a lot about the world around me and I see overseas news sources to give me a different take on events of the worlds.