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Author Topic: The Politics of the Far Left and Far Right  (Read 1230 times)

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Online 2tallbill

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Re: The Politics of the Far Left and Far Right
« Reply #50 on: July 01, 2019, 10:58:45 AM »
"They" could be citizens of any state.

I'm not sure I understand your point maybe you can explain it to me? 
I would prefer not to assume.

When I say "the State" I mean the government.
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Offline mhr7

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Re: The Politics of the Far Left and Far Right
« Reply #51 on: July 01, 2019, 12:02:11 PM »
You said -

Quote
The part that makes it all lefty is that they had to serve the national interest
of the State, by the State, for the State as determined by the State.

This could apply to right states as well, and some center states.
"We may have democracy, or we may have wealth concentrated in the hands of a few, but we can't have both." - Louis Brandeis

Online 2tallbill

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Re: The Politics of the Far Left and Far Right
« Reply #52 on: July 01, 2019, 12:29:44 PM »
You said -

This could apply to right states as well, and some center states.

The further right the government is the less intrusive into the lives
of it's citizens. Right wing governments have less laws, rules, 
regulations and taxes. Left wing governments have more laws rules,
regulations AND taxes AND tax breaks. Left wing governments seek
to control or alter behavior.

FSUW are not for entry level daters
FSUW don't do vague
FSUW like a man of action. Be a man of action 
If you find a promising girl, get your butt on a plane.
There are a hundred ways to be successful and a thousand ways to f#ck it up
Kiss the girl, don't ask her first.

Offline mhr7

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Re: The Politics of the Far Left and Far Right
« Reply #53 on: July 01, 2019, 01:06:40 PM »
The further right the government is the less intrusive into the lives
of it's citizens. Right wing governments have less laws, rules, 
regulations and taxes. Left wing governments have more laws rules,
regulations AND taxes AND tax breaks. Left wing governments seek
to control or alter behavior.

Far right governments are very intrusive, give me an example of a far right state being less intrusive.
"We may have democracy, or we may have wealth concentrated in the hands of a few, but we can't have both." - Louis Brandeis

Offline Boethius

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Re: The Politics of the Far Left and Far Right
« Reply #54 on: July 01, 2019, 02:43:52 PM »
how could they have prevented it from collapsing?
America will go the same way in a few more decades, I ALREADY know this...


You may recall it collapsed after a failed coup.   A coup in which the most elite Soviet troops refused to obey orders and fire on their own citizens.  A coup in which Muscovites took to the streets to protest troops who were there to enforce the orders of the Politburo. 


The USSR collapsed because its populace didn't support its existence.


This post was composed without the aid of google.
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Offline Boethius

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Re: The Politics of the Far Left and Far Right
« Reply #55 on: July 01, 2019, 04:11:02 PM »
Sure, if you were a Ukrainian/Belarussian nationalist you were in big trouble, but if you were a "Soviet Union nationalist" you were in on the correct side.


But people didn't claim "Soviet" nationality.  They were Ukrainian, Russian, Georgian, Armenian, Uzbeki, Estonian, etc.  Even those of mixed nationality never stated they were "Soviet".  They would list their nationalities.  Unless, of course, they were German.

Quote
They had campaigns on the New Soviet man, the Soviet Olympians, the Soviet space program, the Soviet military, blah, blah, etc a million times over. Their superior Soviet man or athlete or even system of government were superior to all others, it was Nationalistic.

No, you are wrong.  You obviously haven't read much Lenin, nor, I suspect, did you ever spend any time in the USSR. 

Everything was about the proletariat.  The proletariat was not "Soviet" (which translates to "council").  The proletariat was, and is, universal.  This is why citizens were not allowed to leave the country.  Anything that could potentially weaken the proletariat (which included average citizens who wished to move elsewhere, where they could fight against the proletariat), anywhere in the world, was a threat.

Look at this -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Worker_and_Kolkhoz_Woman

Do you see any reference to "Soviet"?

Quote
Zero? I don't understand what point you are trying to make. I never tried to call the USSR conservative. They had these socially conservative goals.  The new Soviet man wasn't supposed to be a drinker, a womanizer, etc.

Read some Lenin.  Then read some history of the early days of the USSR.  Hardly "conservative".  Up until the collapse, a divorce could be obtained in a day. 

The "new Soviet man" was just a proletariat - a person free from the constraints and mores of the past.

If a lack of drinking were really something desired, alcohol would not have been so readily available, practically at every store, from 6 a.m. until midnight.  After all, store hours, and what was sold in those stores, was controlled solely and exclusively by the state.  If I went to the local store to buy milk in the morning, sometimes, there was no milk, but there was always alcohol.

Quote
They had Soviet missiles in their parades. They said they weren't Soviet nationalists but they were.

But again, that was about the dictatorship of the proletariat, not nationalism.  The proletariat has no nation, no national identity. 


Google was used to find the wikipedia link in this post.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2019, 04:37:06 PM by Boethius »
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Offline Boethius

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Re: The Politics of the Far Left and Far Right
« Reply #56 on: July 01, 2019, 04:33:53 PM »
They didn't allow trade unions in the Soviet Union either. The Soviets nearly reinvaded Poland because of their union(s)

The part that makes it all lefty is that they had to serve the national interest of the State, by the State, for the State as determined by the State.

The USSR had hundreds of thousands of trade unions, but they were organized by the Party, on a local, regional, or national scale.

Every Soviet worker was a member of a trade union, unless expelled by that trade union.  Workers paid dues to the trade union.  The bosses used those dues for vacations to exclusive parts of the USSR, such as Crimea, Sochi, the Caucasus, etc.


The better half was expelled from the trade union as a traitor when we married.  His salary increased by 3 rubles, as they stopped taking union dues from him.


Poland had trade unions as well.  You are referring to Solidarnosc, which was the first trade union not controlled by the communist party.  As a trade union, it would have survived.  It wasn't its formation that was an issue.  It was its activities on social change that was the issue, and in that regard, Solidarnosc coupled with the intelligentsia and the Catholic Church to demand social change.

This post was composed without the aid of google.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2019, 04:53:08 PM by Boethius »
To love someone means to see him as God intended him. - Fyodor Dostoevksy

Offline SANDRO43

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Re: The Politics of the Far Left and Far Right
« Reply #57 on: July 01, 2019, 05:11:29 PM »
Bills, a word of friendly advice: do not insist on posting weird opinions in this thread, they have been proved ill-informed so many times it's embarrassing ;).
Milan's "Duomo"

Online krimster2

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Re: The Politics of the Far Left and Far Right
« Reply #58 on: July 01, 2019, 05:23:31 PM »
“The USSR collapsed because its populace didn't support its existence.”

aw c’mon BO,
you were there, you SAW what what was going on
so you know the truth is MUCH more complicated than JUST that...

OK...

the BIG question!!!!!
WHY DIDN'T the populace support its existence?
hint:cuz the other way 'round was also true?

when you were living in Kyiv, what western media influences were you exposed to?
magazines, movies, etc...

after the failed coup of Aug 24 in Moscow, Ukraine declared its independence. About 90 percent of Ukrainians voted for their country’s independence on December 1, 1991.

what were the reasons for such an overwhelmingly one sided vote?

now take that list
and compare it to today...

regime change time
will be coming to Ukraine...
when a large enough percentage of  Ukraine's population
doesn't support it's existence...



 
« Last Edit: July 01, 2019, 05:28:43 PM by krimster2 »

Online 2tallbill

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The Politics of the Far Left and Far Right
« Reply #59 on: July 01, 2019, 05:44:43 PM »
Far right governments are very intrusive, give me an example of a far right state being less intrusive.

The State of North Dakota vs the State of California.
 
If you speed in the State of North Dakota they charge you a penalty
of $1 for every mile per hour over the speed limit. In California they
charge you at least $100.00

Compare and contrast the state building contractors licensing laws in
California or New York compared to Texas or Florida.

Compare the freedom in Hong Kong before and after the left wing fascist
Chinese took control.

In 14 states and Washington, D.C., braiders are regulated by separate,
specialty licenses that can include up to 500 hours of coursework before
a braider can work legally. That's to braid hair legally.

My sisters braided each others and their friends hair without a license
when they were teenagers.

http://ij.org/issues/economic-liberty/braiding/

« Last Edit: July 01, 2019, 05:46:31 PM by 2tallbill »
FSUW are not for entry level daters
FSUW don't do vague
FSUW like a man of action. Be a man of action 
If you find a promising girl, get your butt on a plane.
There are a hundred ways to be successful and a thousand ways to f#ck it up
Kiss the girl, don't ask her first.

Offline mhr7

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Re: The Politics of the Far Left and Far Right
« Reply #60 on: July 01, 2019, 07:03:24 PM »
The State of North Dakota vs the State of California.
 
If you speed in the State of North Dakota they charge you a penalty
of $1 for every mile per hour over the speed limit. In California they
charge you at least $100.00

Compare and contrast the state building contractors licensing laws in
California or New York compared to Texas or Florida.

Compare the freedom in Hong Kong before and after the left wing fascist
Chinese took control.

In 14 states and Washington, D.C., braiders are regulated by separate,
specialty licenses that can include up to 500 hours of coursework before
a braider can work legally. That's to braid hair legally.

My sisters braided each others and their friends hair without a license
when they were teenagers.

http://ij.org/issues/economic-liberty/braiding/

By 'state' I meant country.  Didn't realize braiding was so complicated. What is the incentive not to speed in ND? I still don't consider China to be fascist and I think most others don't as well.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2019, 12:44:35 AM by mhr7 »
"We may have democracy, or we may have wealth concentrated in the hands of a few, but we can't have both." - Louis Brandeis

Offline Boethius

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Re: The Politics of the Far Left and Far Right
« Reply #61 on: July 02, 2019, 12:58:35 AM »
aw c’mon BO,
you were there, you SAW what what was going on
so you know the truth is MUCH more complicated than JUST that...

No, it really isn't.  Pope John Paul II once described his role in the collapse of communism (it was huge, BTW) as this - "The tree was already rotten.  I simply gave it a good shake and the apples fell."

Quote
OK...

the BIG question!!!!!
WHY DIDN'T the populace support its existence?
hint:cuz the other way 'round was also true?

See Pope John Paul II.
Quote
when you were living in Kyiv, what western media influences were you exposed to?
magazines, movies, etc...

None. 

The Dnipro Hotel sometimes carried the International Herald Tribune, but not very often, maybe once every few months.  Communist papers from the West were sold, mostly French and Italian, but I didn't buy the French ones, and I don't read Italian.  I came back from Canada once with a copy of Time magazine, which was very coveted - never seen before by any Soviets I knew who could read English (a very small list).

PS - Anything sold in a foreign hotel had to be purchased with foreign currency, converted to rubles at an exceptionally poor exchange rate.

During the late days of so called perestroika, some Western programmes were on television - The Muppets after midnight, Dallas after the news (hubby tells me all the babas watched it).   Dallas was shown to demonstrate the rotten decadence of the West.  Gone With the Wind was shown on television.  These, though, were exchanges.  The Soviets traded Eisenstein movies, for example, for The Muppets.  I know a British series starring Timothy Dalton, perhaps Jane Eyre, but not certain, was played on television, as women commented on his handsomeness.

Before my time, some Western movies were shown.  Not many American - Some Like it Hot was popular, hubby told me. Another popular movie there was Mackenna's Gold.  I only know this because women just swooned for Gregory Peck.  Lots of French movies were shown - lots starring a young Alain Delon (women loved him), The Umbrellas of Cherbourg, and the French film Diva, which I still like, was shown there to mostly empty theatres, and lots of French comedies.  I am fairly certain a fair number of Italian movies, from the 1950's were shown there as well, because Marcello Mastrioianni was known, and again, women swooned.  I would have to ask the better half, as most of those movies predate my time there.

I know that Bollywood movies were popular, those were the foreign movies that predominated when I was there.  I am sure there are others, but most Western movies were shown to demonstrate the negative aspects of Western life.


So, to answer your question, none, and that was intentional.  Any Westerner living there was under KGB surveillance, pretty much 24/7.

Quote
after the failed coup of Aug 24 in Moscow, Ukraine declared its independence. About 90 percent of Ukrainians voted for their country’s independence on December 1, 1991.

what were the reasons for such an overwhelmingly one sided vote?

Obscurity and greed.  They assumed they would live in prosperity merely by declaring independence.  They didn't understand that no one would feed them, they'd need to do this themselves, and, in 25 years, they've learned virtually nothing in this regard.

This post was composed without the aid of google.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2019, 12:08:54 PM by Boethius »
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Offline fathertime

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Re: The Politics of the Far Left and Far Right
« Reply #62 on: July 02, 2019, 04:38:32 AM »
The further right the government is the less intrusive into the lives
of it's citizens. Right wing governments have less laws, rules, 
regulations and taxes. Left wing governments have more laws rules,
regulations AND taxes AND tax breaks. Left wing governments seek
to control or alter behavior.
this particular administration is attempting to control, regulate, and apply sanctions/tariffs on practically every country it can.

Fathertime! 
I just happened to be browsing about the internet....

Offline Boethius

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Re: The Politics of the Far Left and Far Right
« Reply #63 on: July 02, 2019, 12:19:09 PM »
To add, my husband says a lot of Italian movies were shown in the USSR, because they had social themes - Bread and Chocolate, Bicycle Thieves, all of Fellini's movies.  Not Western, but all of Kurosawa's movies were shown.

Additional American movies - It's a Mad, Mad, Mad, Mad World, 3:10 to Yuma (which no one watched to the end, other than hubby), The Magnificent Seven, Seven Brides for Seven Brothers, Kramer v Kramer, Tootsie (which was portrayed as a "poor man who had to dress as a woman in order to find a job").

This post was composed without the aid of google.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2019, 01:54:54 PM by Boethius »
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Offline Boethius

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Re: The Politics of the Far Left and Far Right
« Reply #64 on: July 02, 2019, 02:06:24 PM »
The Fraser Institute, a right wing think tank in Canada which receives significant funding from the Koch Brothers and Tea Party supporting billionaires, publishes a "freedom index" every year.  That index looks at various types of freedoms, allocating points to each type for an overall score of freedom.

Here's a link to last year's freedom index.  The Executive Summary is at page 9.  Note that 2 of the top 4 countries for economic freedom are ::cough cough:: socialist.

http://www.fraserinstitute.org/sites/default/files/human-freedom-index-2018.pdf

This post was composed without the aid of google.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2019, 02:42:26 PM by Boethius »
To love someone means to see him as God intended him. - Fyodor Dostoevksy

Online 2tallbill

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Re: The Politics of the Far Left and Far Right
« Reply #65 on: July 02, 2019, 05:04:03 PM »
But again, that was about the dictatorship of the proletariat, not nationalism.  The proletariat has no nation, no national identity. 


Google was used to find the wikipedia link in this post.

I think we are at a stalemate, I think all the things I've mentioned are
about Nationalism, you consider it differently.

Udachi!

Bill
FSUW are not for entry level daters
FSUW don't do vague
FSUW like a man of action. Be a man of action 
If you find a promising girl, get your butt on a plane.
There are a hundred ways to be successful and a thousand ways to f#ck it up
Kiss the girl, don't ask her first.

Offline tfcrew

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Re: The Politics of the Far Left and Far Right
« Reply #66 on: September 04, 2019, 12:49:06 PM »
Ever see this one?

Online msmob

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Re: The Politics of the Far Left and Far Right
« Reply #67 on: October 06, 2019, 01:43:04 AM »
Jeez,

JUST found this ..

What sort of  clueless muppet would post such bollox as 'fact' ?   


Now whilst I realise they've prob never BEEN to Syria and wouldn't know that there have been some crazy alliances ( my enemy's enemy is my friend) during battle ...

McCain did NOT meet with al-Baghadi..   The photo was taken with former FSA chief ( Free Syrian Army) members .. including 'Gen.Idris'   - last I heard of exiled in Turkey


Have some Americans SO lost the plot that they'd believe and re-post such twaddle ?

http://theweek.com/articles/463930/what-sen-john-mccain-doing-syria


No to Brexit, Yes to a People's Vote on Brexit, THEN a General Election

 

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