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Author Topic: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)  (Read 54468 times)

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Online msmob

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Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
« Reply #1850 on: October 26, 2020, 08:07:27 AM »
Oh look, the old apples and pears argument!!  :wallbash: Where's your Belgium comparison where they locked everyone down but have terrible death rates compared to Sweden? Ahhh.....those facts don't fit your narrative.

IF ONLY you paused to think before posting you'd realise who is actually guilty of THAT when facts do not suit ...

Comparing neighbouring nations is a great way of comparing what they are doing wrong or right

It was noted, once again, how you ducked the 'herd immunity' scandal and 'missing emails' at Sweden's end re 'herd immunity'   

5,800 deaths from 11 million people in Sweden. Nearly all of them from care homes, terminally ill and people with multiple health issues whose days were numbered. If you were under 70, you had almost 100% chance of surviving covid yet you want to lock everyone down and destroy the economy. And after that first spike, they now have less deaths on a daily/monthly/annual basis than at any time over the last 5 years. Tell me how that's a terrible thing again?

1/ Sweden' govt even admit 'mistakes' ... re protecting their old

2/ Most developed nations know how to treat serious cases

People dying of cancer because they don't get the diagnosis or treatment. Children not being educated. Domestic abuse soaring. Mental health issues through the roof. Suicide is now one of the biggest killers whilst covid struggles to make the top 20.

You DO realise you are proving you simply cannot be thinking, logically. Healthcare is affected by staff who cannot work due to being in contact with infected people ..

I have a good mate who has been bricking it re Prostate cancer - it took FAR longer than normal to get " it's a growth, but not deadly"  result.

We await visa applications being processed in longer times .. This is because folk are working from home

My Mum is stir crazy when my sis' cannot visit

You 'preach' as if others do not  see the downside of precautions and ignore the reasoning WHY

Just admit that you're wrong about Sweden Moby. It's like being offended.....nothing actually happens.

I'm afraid you're being in denial re the  factual numbers presented suggests you will 'wait' a LONG time ..  I can only surmise you deliberately didn't check the new case numbers

Online Rosco

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Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
« Reply #1851 on: October 26, 2020, 08:11:37 AM »
Im not sure the hundreds of thousands of Muslim immigrants, who live in high density urban enclaves, can have their living, working or social arrangements described as in the article above.

In short though I agree that Swedes behave different to Finns, Danes & Belgians and we can only compare Sweden with Sweden. Right now less Swedes are dying on a rolling basis than any other year in recent history, its remarkable.

I fully support changing our lives and learning to live with the virus. Cancelling our lives only means we sacrifice others in different ways.

Online Rosco

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Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
« Reply #1852 on: October 26, 2020, 08:17:13 AM »
IF ONLY you paused to think before posting you'd realise who is actually guilty of THAT when facts do not suit ...

Comparing neighbouring nations is a great way of comparing what they are doing wrong or right

It was noted, once again, how you ducked the 'herd immunity' scandal and 'missing emails' at Sweden's end re 'herd immunity'   

1/ Sweden' govt even admit 'mistakes' ... re protecting their old

2/ Most developed nations know how to treat serious cases

You DO realise you are proving you simply cannot be thinking, logically. Healthcare is affected by staff who cannot work due to being in contact with infected people ..

I have a good mate who has been bricking it re Prostate cancer - it took FAR longer than normal to get " it's a growth, but not deadly"  result.

We await visa applications being processed in longer times .. This is because folk are working from home

My Mum is stir crazy when my sis' cannot visit

You 'preach' as if others do not  see the downside of precautions and ignore the reasoning WHY

I'm afraid you're being in denial re the  factual numbers presented suggests you will 'wait' a LONG time ..  I can only surmise you deliberately didn't check the new case numbers

Moby I wont be repeating anything for your benefit because youre too lazy to read or think about what you think youve read. Sweden isnt perfect by any standards but you simply cant accept that Sweden is anything other than a catastrophic failure because youve picked your team and you need to stick with it.

The numbers and data says it all. Youve only got a 12 week financial window from Finland and an attempted comparison to neighbouring countries to form an argument.

Anything suggesting some sort of success in Sweden triggers your hate. You need to get over it.

Online msmob

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Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
« Reply #1853 on: October 26, 2020, 08:22:16 AM »
Moby I wont be repeating anything

The numbers and data says it all. [/quote]

Agree

Anything suggesting some sort of success in Sweden triggers your hate. You need to get over it.

Incorrect,

Your posting 'data' that misrepresents Sweden's 'success' is what I responded to


Once again, you ducked the 'herd immunity' and missing emails scandal, so I KNOW you aren't in communication with anyone from Sweden on a near daily basis .

I like Sweden, as you know .. it is you who has been 'vocal' re their immigration policy

Online Rosco

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Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
« Reply #1854 on: October 26, 2020, 09:35:58 AM »
I work with 2 large international Scandinavian businesses, have around 100 Swedish colleagues and have 2 of my close friends who live in Sweden, married to Swedes. My best friends mother is Swedish who lives in Sweden again.

Ive got a pretty good idea how things work Moby or are you going to try and tell me Im wrong about this too? According to your beliefs, I have more Swedish contacts ergo my opinion trumps yours....

Im telling you this now because as ever, you seem to think youre the best connected & most clever man in the room, whilst we mere mortals know nothing. Your posts are making you look like a really silly boy.

Herd immunity may or may not work for this particular virus and well know more as times goes by. What we do know is that proportionally, a handful of elderly & gravely ill Swedes died in a country that wasnt locked down and we were told that up to 200,000 would die. The reality is very different and bizarrely they have fewer deaths this year than any other in recent time.

Other countries who did lock down have ruined economies and excess mortality by other causes. This is worthy of consideration and people like you calling Sweden out as catastrophic, need their heads looked at.

Id suggest you run along and take your free 50/1 Trump bet too!!

 ;)

Offline Trenchcoat

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Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
« Reply #1855 on: October 26, 2020, 12:18:45 PM »
Sighs...

Trench,
'We' know how to treat the respiratory issues, now..

Also, THIS time, many mores cases in western nations with Students..often asymptomatic..

We know of some ways to treat it that may or may not work. Even a if treated there may be a possibility of long term health problems. Some people are of course still dying. While younger people may be spreading the virus and caring less as the outlook is likely not so bad for them I think the whole picture is still somewhat different than before. No doubt still potentially unpleasant to get even if mildly.
No Deal is Ideal, It's a Free Britain we want :)

Online Gator

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Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
« Reply #1856 on: October 26, 2020, 02:32:48 PM »
The resurgence of the virus in Europe has even made American news, which normally gives little attention to Europe.  This article headline is typical.   

Italy imposes harshest coronavirus restrictions since spring lockdown as second wave sweeps Europe

There are other articles such as one claiming the actual deaths in France could be twice the number reported.

I recall how smug some of our Euro members spoke in early summer, claiming their strict and extended economic shutdown had corralled the virus.  Some with a political biases used preliminary data to blame Trump for mismanaging America's response.  We now see such claims of mismanagement  were unwarranted.   We are in the same boat. 

In America we understand that the virus can not be controlled unless drastic measures are undertaken OR effective and safe vaccines are developed and administered en masse.   Until then we must continue to mitigate and to not be surprised by outbreaks.  The resurgence in Europe apparently is a preview of our future as new cases already exceed a peak record set in the Spring.         

Online Gator

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Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
« Reply #1857 on: October 26, 2020, 02:49:18 PM »
Drastic measures can still work.  Consider a recent episode in China, where this horrible pandemic originated.   

"Xinjiang health authorities said that the first asymptomatic case in the Kashgar area was detected Saturday and that 2.8 million residents had been tested by Sunday afternoon." By Monday evening, a total of 4.5 million had been tested, which is nearly the entire population.   That evening authorities reported finding 164 asymptomatic cases.

Mobilizing, testing and analyzing on such a grand scale seems impossible for America, or at least prohibitively expensive.  In my home county of 1.5 million, public health officials report finding 1,120 cases of new infections after performing a mere 11,200 tests.  And our reported cases are slowly ticking upwards. 




Offline Boethius

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Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
« Reply #1858 on: October 26, 2020, 03:11:16 PM »
There's a good documentary on Amazon right now, Totally Under Control, that discusses some of the differences between the US response and that of (mostly) South Korea.  I recommend it.


This post was composed without the aid of google.
True love begins when nothing is looked for in return.  Antoine de Saint-Exupery

Online Gator

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Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
« Reply #1859 on: October 26, 2020, 03:29:46 PM »
There's a good documentary on Amazon right now, Totally Under Control, that discusses some of the differences between the US response and that of (mostly) South Korea.  I recommend it.


This post was composed without the aid of google.

South Korea's program is a model to follow.  Voluntary compliance seems easier in monoculture nations. 

Offline Boethius

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Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
« Reply #1860 on: October 26, 2020, 04:08:38 PM »
One of the points the documentary made was that in South Korea, politicians did not drive the response.  It was directed solely by scientists and medical professionals.  They decided the lockdowns, how people would be tested, etc.  Some of this came after their experience with SARS.


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Online tfcrew

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Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
« Reply #1861 on: October 26, 2020, 04:45:06 PM »
The USA is the only country [I know of] where blame is practically placed on it's leader for the pandemic....Try doing that in China
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Offline BC

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Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
« Reply #1862 on: October 27, 2020, 02:42:13 AM »

I recall how smug some of our Euro members spoke in early summer, claiming their strict and extended economic shutdown had corralled the virus.  Some with a political biases used preliminary data to blame Trump for mismanaging America's response.  We now see such claims of mismanagement  were unwarranted.   We are in the same boat. 

In America we understand that the virus can not be controlled unless drastic measures are undertaken OR effective and safe vaccines are developed and administered en masse.   Until then we must continue to mitigate and to not be surprised by outbreaks.  The resurgence in Europe apparently is a preview of our future as new cases already exceed a peak record set in the Spring.         

Gator,

Indeed numbers are up here, testing has tripled, positivity is up to around 10%.  Unfortunately, deaths have crept up from single and low double digits (20's) throughout the summer to around 150 per day now.

The big difference is that a second wave was expected, just a matter of time.  The Italians have a plan and are following it.  Should the situation get critical, more measures will be taken.  I don't expect full lockdowns that were needed as with the surprise first wave.  Looking around town and elsewhere 90% of folks are wearing masks and taking precautions.  Yes, cinemas have been closed, restaurants and bars close at 6 pm now, schools are adjusting schedules.  The most drastic measure is curfews to try and keep the young crowd from gathering in piazzas and parks in the evenings which is part of the social culture.  Some small protests about that in the larger cities.

I wouldn't consider this a failure by any measure.  Three months of very low deaths after lockdowns were lifted is a great achievement.  952 deaths in three months.  To put it into perspective, how many deaths in the US from the beginning of July through the end of September?  80,000 sound about right?  That is a huge difference.  I still chalk that up to mismanagement and lack of leadership.  Europe pretty much started the second wave at zero whereas the US is starting from already very high numbers of infections and deaths.

This is the beginning of the second wave with 6-9 months to go before mass vaccinations are underway and begin having an effect. The flu season is beginning, a lot of folks are standing in line to vote,  Trump will hold a few more superspreader events, Thanksgiving and Christmas are rapidly approaching.

Let's see how things are looking towards the end of the year Gator before drawing broad conclusions about the efficacy of mitigation measures.  It is going to be a tough time on both sides of the Atlantic.  There will be no winner, only those that have lost less.


Online Gator

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Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
« Reply #1863 on: October 27, 2020, 05:41:28 AM »

Let's see how things are looking towards the end of the year Gator before drawing broad conclusions about the efficacy of mitigation measures. 


Again, BC you are focusing on too short of a time frame for a pandemic.  12-18 months from now the whole story may be told, provided we have administered effective vaccines en masse.  Probably even longer in the less developed nations.     


Do not forget a key second part of the whole story will be how the economy recovers, which strongly affects the quality of life of the 99.9% who did not die.  


Quote
It is going to be a tough time on both sides of the Atlantic.  There will be no winner, only those that have lost less.

Measured in terms of deaths, lost jobs and other suffering. 

When all suffering and damages have been counted, we will understand this viral agent from China exacted a shockingly huge toll around the globe.  That's the important story, not just the story of fighting outbreaks along the way. 

Offline GQBlues

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Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
« Reply #1864 on: October 27, 2020, 05:50:41 AM »
I fully support changing our lives and learning to live with the virus. Cancelling our lives only means we sacrifice others in different ways.

Likely the sanest statement in this thread.
Quote from: msmob
1. Because of 'man', global warming is causing desert and arid areas to suffer long, dry spell.
2. The 2018 Camp Fire and Woolsey California wildfires are forests burning because of global warming.
3. N95 mask will choke you dead after 30 min. of use.

Offline BC

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Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
« Reply #1865 on: October 27, 2020, 06:35:58 AM »
Again, BC you are focusing on too short of a time frame for a pandemic.  12-18 months from now the whole story may be told, provided we have administered effective vaccines en masse.  Probably even longer in the less developed nations. 

My reply was in response to your statement "We now see such claims of mismanagement were unwarranted."   Of course, we'll know more a few months down the road, and as you stated, certainly much more during and after the 12-18 month timeframe you mentioned.


Quote
Do not forget a key second part of the whole story will be how the economy recovers, which strongly affects the quality of life of the 99.9% who did not die.  

Quote
Measured in terms of deaths, lost jobs and other suffering. 

Economies will recover, some faster, some slower when this calamity is over.  I am more worried about how the common men and women fare.  My major concern is with fellow citizens and residents back home that do not have access to the wider social safety net and healthcare benefits of most folks overseas.  At least the vast majority over here won't fear medical bills, lack of food, or a roof over their head.

It will be a huge challenge for all of us no matter where we live.

Quote
When all suffering and damages have been counted, we will understand this viral agent from China exacted a shockingly huge toll around the globe.  That's the important story, not just the story of fighting outbreaks along the way.

Keep in mind the next pandemic can come from anywhere on the planet. 
« Last Edit: October 27, 2020, 06:39:28 AM by BC »

Offline Boethius

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Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
« Reply #1866 on: October 27, 2020, 11:39:05 AM »
The USA is the only country [I know of] where blame is practically placed on it's leader for the pandemic....Try doing that in China


Your federal government, unlike other governments worldwide, downplayed the seriousness of COVID-19, and your Secretary of Health refused to listen to experts, or give them the funding they requested, at the very beginning of the pandemic.  That is what is criticized.


Our government was criticized as well, for not closing the borders quickly enough and not taking more proactive action immediately.  That is being investigated currently.  However, most of our response is controlled at the provincial, rather than the federal level.


China was, in fact, criticized.  Of course, internal criticism was punished, but it certainly was criticized outside the country.  However, the first cluster of COVID cases were examined in Wuhan on December 12.  On January 5, China reported a new virus to the World Health Organization, on January 3, Chinese epidemiologists ruled out the possibility of the virus being something already known.  On January 22, WHO officials discovered there was human to human transmission of the virus, and on January 23, Wuhan was put into quarantine by the Chinese government.


I think China reacted very quickly to the virus.  Wuhan officials can be criticized, though, for charging physicians who reported on a new illness on social media, with distributing rumours.


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Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
« Reply #1867 on: October 27, 2020, 01:40:49 PM »
Your federal government, unlike other governments worldwide, downplayed the seriousness of COVID-19, and your Secretary of Health refused to listen to experts, or give them the funding they requested, at the very beginning of the pandemic.  That is what is criticized.





People were almost killing each other over toilet paper. I think Trump said enough about the virus, maybe too much. We spent so much money mobilizing against the virus that China and WHO downplayed it's not funny. We also increased the contributions to the IMF to help other nations with their virus problems.
Do your part to limit the spread of COVID-19

Offline BC

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Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
« Reply #1868 on: October 27, 2020, 03:20:29 PM »
I would think the president of the United States, CIC of the most powerful military in the world, with powers of the Defense Production Act of 1950 could easily guarantee the supply of toilet paper.

The guarantee of supplies and grocery goods was one of the first official acts of the government here when the crisis began.

It's that simple.

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Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
« Reply #1869 on: October 27, 2020, 03:43:02 PM »



Our government made sure food, PPE, ventilators and other things that involve life and death increased in production. Toilet paper, vitamin shortages, hand sanitizer and a few other little things ran out because people panicked from the little info they got about the virus. Now they criticize Trump for not saying enough about it. Lol.
Do your part to limit the spread of COVID-19

Online Gator

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Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
« Reply #1870 on: October 27, 2020, 04:49:42 PM »
My major concern is with fellow citizens and residents back home that do not have access to the wider social safety net and healthcare benefits of most folks overseas.  At least the vast majority over here won't fear medical bills, lack of food, or a roof over their head.

I have seen few news stories about food and healthcare, e. g., one showing a long line for a food bank.  Considering the liberal tone of the news media, if there were a story of people suffering, it would be broadcast again and again. 

Some people who became unemployed because of the lockdown are behind in rent or mortgage payments.  Part of the early Congressional relief legislation halted evictions, however.  That will not continue forever. 

In summary, your concern has not materialized, yet. 

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Do your part to limit the spread of COVID-19

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Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
« Reply #1872 on: October 28, 2020, 06:47:55 AM »

Your federal government, unlike other governments worldwide, downplayed the seriousness of COVID-19, and your Secretary of Health refused to listen to experts, or give them the funding they requested, at the very beginning of the pandemic.  That is what is criticized.

America's  largest problem in the beginning of the pandemic was inadequate testing by CDC.   What are other specific criticisms of Secretary Azar's Department? 


Quote
Our government was criticized as well, for not closing the borders quickly enough and not taking more proactive action immediately.  That is being investigated currently.  However, most of our response is controlled at the provincial, rather than the federal level.

The same in the US.  Public health is primarily a responsibility of state and local governments,  hence showing Secretary Azar had small influence.   While Trump was restricting travel from China, some states such as New York were defying his actions at their end.    How effective was the local government primacy in New York?


Quote
I think China reacted very quickly to the virus. 

Yes, and harshly.  The quarantine was total, much stricter than anything the West would undertake.  Would it have been acceptable to quarantine and lockdown Seattle?  New York City?   

Evidently, China knew something it was not sharing with the world, e. g., China  prohibited domestic  travel from Wuhan, but not international travel.     

What did China know and not share promptly with the world, other than sharing the virus?

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Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
« Reply #1873 on: October 28, 2020, 07:04:21 AM »

Yes, and harshly.  The quarantine was total, much stricter than anything the West would undertake.  Would it have been acceptable to quarantine and lockdown Seattle?  New York City?   

Evidently, China knew something it was not sharing with the world, e. g., China  prohibited domestic  travel from Wuhan, but not international travel.     

What did China know and not share promptly with the world, other than sharing the virus?
wah wah wah, it is china's fault!    More blame shifting.  The fact is, China has handled the virus better than Trump/US.   Very hard for you and others to admit obviously.

Fathertime! 
I just happened to be browsing about the internet....

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Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
« Reply #1874 on: October 28, 2020, 07:56:22 AM »
WAVE OF BAD NEWS

The pandemic surge in Europe is compelling speculation that  nations such as France will be enacting very stringent restrictions such as closing borders for 2, 3 weeks, maybe longer.  The US is about three weeks behind Europe.   It appears we are entering  the most challenging period of this pandemic. 

Meanwhile, the US Fed has stated it is running out of ammo to combat a slowdown.  The Fed stressed Congress needs to give some fiscal relief to prompt consumer spending.  Ignoring the Fed,  Congress left DC without passing a stimulus/relief bill because the Democrats insist (over objections of Republicans) non-COVID funding be included. 

Resurgence of the pandemic....possibility of economic lockdowns....Fed concern.......no relief bill....market selloff.  How long will it continue?  How deep will it go? 

 

 

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Re: Japtats Trip report by japtats
Yesterday at 06:18:12 PM

Re: Lady with child - Advice needed by Davo
Yesterday at 04:31:54 PM

Re: Lady with child - Advice needed by ML
Yesterday at 03:40:33 PM

Re: Love and FSU partners during this COVID crisis by Rosco
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Re: Lady with child - Advice needed by japtats
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Lady with child - What factors should you consider? by 2tallbill
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