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Poll

If it turns out that the Woohan Institute of Virology incubated and accidentally distributed the Corona Virus what would be your response?

I would be upset with China but would not do anything.
2 (16.7%)
I would boycott China and everything it produces because the government hid a deathly plague
7 (58.3%)
I would believe China - that the disease really started in the US
0 (0%)
I would send China the bill for the lost economies and seek replacement of its government.
3 (25%)

Total Members Voted: 12

Voting closed: April 19, 2020, 02:15:29 PM

Author Topic: If China is Really Responsible......  (Read 10869 times)

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Online jone

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If China is Really Responsible......
« on: April 05, 2020, 02:15:29 PM »
Well,

I think we are going to get here sooner or later.   China has done too many things - lied about too many things - to escape unharmed.   Tell us what your thoughts are as you look in the refrigerator wondering if you go to the store you might catch Corona (and not the amber colored stuff).
Kissing girls is a goodness.  It beats the hell out of card games.  - Robert Heinlein

Online Gator

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Re: If China is Really Responsible......
« Reply #1 on: April 05, 2020, 05:23:06 PM »
That's a huge IF starting your thread title.

I very much doubt it will be proven because China's autocratic government will never allow the necessary investigation.   

I voted  for your "boycott" option yet I don't think an embargo is advisable, based on the 1940 experience with Japan.  Instead I  could see  the G20 reducing itself to 19 and  standing united to wean itself eventually from China's manufacturing teat.   This action might compel China to allow the necessary investigation, yet I doubt it.   

Assuming China's degree of pandemic culpability is limited to withholding information, this weaning still makes sense for three reasons:

      1)  China has proven  to be unreliable link in the supply chain.
      2)  We have found ourselves too dependent upon China for goods important to our security (e. g., pharmaceuticals).
      3)  Jobs.

I trust everyone realizes that if we wean ourselves from China, the prices we pay for "stuff" will increase. 

Maybe more people will now subscribe to Trump's policies regarding trade with China.     

Offline ML

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Re: If China is Really Responsible......
« Reply #2 on: April 05, 2020, 06:00:30 PM »
Assuming China's degree of pandemic culpability is limited to withholding information, this weaning still makes sense for three reasons:

      1)  China has proven  to be unreliable link in the supply chain.
      2)  We have found ourselves too dependent upon China for goods important to our security (e. g., pharmaceuticals).
      3)  Jobs.

I trust everyone realizes that if we wean ourselves from China, the prices we pay for "stuff" will increase. 

Maybe more people will now subscribe to Trump's policies regarding trade with China.   

As I have stated before, I am willing to pay more.

What was really startling to me was when I read that something like 90% of our drugs were outsourced to be made in China.

That is totally ridiculous and a certain threat to us.

Of course they can really cause us havoc when we try to reduce that %.
Winston Churchill.  The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter.

Online jone

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Re: If China is Really Responsible......
« Reply #3 on: April 05, 2020, 08:47:43 PM »
As we are all starting to figure out, we're all in this together.   And, as time goes on, we will want to know the whole truth.   Not just part of the truth.  Or the spoon fed truth.   Or the disinformation truth.   No, we will not just want that truth.   We will demand it.

This is not just some plane being shot out of the sky by some macho bully with a Buk.   This is a whole nation that has been (and is being) abused by its own government.   And when it gets out about the suppression of the truth - which is too important to the world not to know - there will be anti-China campaigns.   Anti-Chinese products.   China's economy is going down the shitter.   And everyone in the Communist Party in China knows this and has no idea about what to do about it.   

This week, the Dr. from Woohan Central Hospital, who blew the whistle on the plague?   He died a couple of weeks ago.   China is now trying to make a Martyr out of him.   But they can't say that it was the government who was trying to suppress him.   Only that Police Departments didn't understand what he was trying to communicate.

No, China will pay a HUGE price for the continued lies that they spew out.   If they think their economy has fallen now, wait until the common citizens of the world figure out what China unleashed on its own people and the rest of the world.
Kissing girls is a goodness.  It beats the hell out of card games.  - Robert Heinlein

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Re: If China is Really Responsible......
« Reply #4 on: April 05, 2020, 08:52:07 PM »
I have my doubts.  I have a feeling Europe will deal with the lowest bidder no matter what.
Doug (Calmissile)

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Re: If China is Really Responsible......
« Reply #5 on: April 05, 2020, 08:53:45 PM »
What would happen if a website popped up that began listing alternatives to Chinese products?   Instead of the One-China policy, it would be the No-China policy.   
Kissing girls is a goodness.  It beats the hell out of card games.  - Robert Heinlein

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Re: If China is Really Responsible......
« Reply #6 on: April 05, 2020, 09:05:16 PM »

This is not just some plane being shot out of the sky by some macho bully with a Buk.   This is a whole nation that has been (and is being) abused by its own government.   And when it gets out about the suppression of the truth - which is too important to the world not to know - there will be anti-China campaigns.   Anti-Chinese products.   China's economy is going down the shitter.   And everyone in the Communist Party in China knows this and has no idea about what to do about it.   
Commenting on 'everyone in the communist's party's feelings' as if you can read minds.   This sounds like another effort to derail an American competitor that is beating us.   If we want to make our own products that sounds good to me, lets just see if we are willing to do that.  The whining about the abuse is just a political stunt to try to weaken China because they can compete so well against the USA.  If we are so great, why aren't we making our own products?  Why do we have to rely on the Chinese to do our dirty work?   Sounds like we need to let another 10-20 million illegals in so they can do the work here within the borders of the good old USA, without have the benefit of being a citizen or voting!   

Fathertime! 
I just happened to be browsing about the internet....

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Re: If China is Really Responsible......
« Reply #7 on: April 05, 2020, 09:05:34 PM »
Your dreaming!   Fact of the matter is that we (and probably anyone else) can't manufacture and sell goods as cheap as China has been doing.

Case in point from my personal experience....  We in the USA have practically been forced to buy machine tools and tooling from China for many years.   There are very few USA companies that even make it anymore.  At one time the US and a few European countries made the best tooling and measurement tools in the world.

Go into most any USA factory or machine shop and you will find most tooling and instruments have been replaced with Chinese products.  What few USA companies remain, the price is often 5-10X the cost.

The same is true of electronic instruments and probably robots, etc.  We once had the best and largest test equipment companies such as Tektronix and Hewlet Packard.  What little they offer now is so much more expensive than the acceptable quality of Chinese units, the USA companies are struggling to survive.  If it wasn't for the US government and it's contractors I don't think they could survive.

I won't even mention consumer electronics.  The public can see the price differences for themselves, assuming that the USA even makes the same goods anymore.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2020, 09:07:26 PM by calmissile »
Doug (Calmissile)

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Re: If China is Really Responsible......
« Reply #8 on: April 05, 2020, 09:09:03 PM »
Two books that I read back in the 90s immediately come to mind.    Both by Clancy.

The first was Debt of Honor.   It begins with Japanese unfair trade practices and what the American citizenry did with Japanese products once it came out that Japan, through monopolizing its car industry, put Americans at risk.   

According to Clancy, the anger would be so high that the country would be swept with an Anti-Japanese bias and all American companies had to switch their supply chains.   (It did not end well for the US as the Capital was attacked by an insane Japanese airline pilot who flew his jet into a joint session of congress, killing everyone.   -- and if tacticians are correct, this book served as the basis for 911.)

The second Clancy Book that comes to mind is 'The Bear and the Dragon'.   In that book, the Chinese Central Committee is so out of touch with the populace that the young generation eventually have to swarm the government and take over.

These types of scenarios are going through every Central Committee members' heads right now.   How they act over then next few months will determine their outcome.   But there is some tough sledding up ahead.
Kissing girls is a goodness.  It beats the hell out of card games.  - Robert Heinlein

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Re: If China is Really Responsible......
« Reply #9 on: April 05, 2020, 09:12:12 PM »
BTW, I agree that we should be manufacturing our own products, it cannot happen overnight.  It was years for the Japanese and then the follow-on countries to improve their quality to where USA consumers would purchase it over USA products.  It's taken 40 years for us to loose our manufacturing base and we do not have the talent or infrastructure to turn the spigot back on in a short period of time.

Nevertheless, we should begin the process.
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Re: If China is Really Responsible......
« Reply #10 on: April 05, 2020, 09:48:34 PM »
Commenting on 'everyone in the communist's party's feelings' as if you can read minds.   This sounds like another effort to derail an American competitor that is beating us.   If we want to make our own products that sounds good to me, lets just see if we are willing to do that.  The whining about the abuse is just a political stunt to try to weaken China because they can compete so well against the USA.  If we are so great, why aren't we making our own products?  Why do we have to rely on the Chinese to do our dirty work?   Sounds like we need to let another 10-20 million illegals in so they can do the work here within the borders of the good old USA, without have the benefit of being a citizen or voting!   

Fathertime!

There are very few times that I actually take the time to respond to you.   Probably 10 times in the last two years  - even with the untold number of times you've attacked me.

However, my perspective does not come from where the Americans are.   Mine are coming from what the Chinese think about their own government.   Your limited perspective does not allow you to see that raising the standard of living for the Chinese is partly political.   

There are a number of workable government models.   Some are bordering on the Central Committee concept in place now.   But anyone who has actually read about Chinese politics will tell you that it is an autocratic society with whole segments of the government run by a single man who can almost never be fired.   Such a perspective is antiquated.   And the current crisis just put a microscope on it.

I am not of a mind to indulge you this evening.  But your thinking that everything that happens in China is the result of the US trying to influence international relations is just flat out wrong.   While the US is the largest customer, like every sales industry, the deal is made because the buyer wants to buy.   If you offend your buyer, they don't buy from you.

China has now reneged on countless contractual obligations to buy raw materials:   To purchase agricultural products, to partnership up with international pacts.   China is using the 'god' card to nullify those obligations.   What would happen if it came out that the virus was isolated and worked on, prior to its escape into the world, at the virology institute?

Do you not think that the workings of the Chinese government will not be held accountable in all of those relationships?   

For China to succeed, there has to be a transparency.   But China operates the old style communist regime.  It is not at all transparent.   

I am not fear mongering about this.   I am opening conversation about something that will be on everyone's lips in the next few months.   Had China been transparent about this at the onset, the push back would be minimal.   But the entire world knows that China is lying.   And so is that idiot who was leading the WHO.  And to think that China will escape world condemnation and a severe jolt to their economy is bordering on denial.

I realize that this is a long shot prediction.   But I predict the fall of the current Chinese power structure over this.  How it will re-form is anyone's guess.   
Kissing girls is a goodness.  It beats the hell out of card games.  - Robert Heinlein

Online BillyB

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Re: If China is Really Responsible......
« Reply #11 on: April 05, 2020, 10:03:41 PM »
  Fact of the matter is that we (and probably anyone else) can't manufacture and sell goods as cheap as China has been doing.


If enough people boycott Chinese products, manufactures would move their factories to other Asian nations or may look to Central or South America.

the entire world knows that China is lying.   


China didn't let experts from WHO and the CDC in to investigate the situation and look for the source of the virus. Without hard evidence, nations can't prosecute China in an international court.

But I predict the fall of the current Chinese power structure over this.  How it will re-form is anyone's guess.   


Who is going to remove the Communist government in China? What nations are going to go to war over this? How can civilians fight an army with sticks? China already got many of it's people to believe America planted the virus on them. Those brainwashed people are willing to fight alongside their Army, not against them.

A top Chinese official had proposed gratitude education so that people may properly thank their government's handling of the virus.

http://www.businessinsider.com/coronavirus-wuhan-official-gratitude-education-citizens-thank-government-2020-3

« Last Edit: April 06, 2020, 12:07:40 AM by BillyB »
Do your part to limit the spread of COVID-19

Offline fathertime

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Re: If China is Really Responsible......
« Reply #12 on: April 05, 2020, 10:18:28 PM »
  But I predict the fall of the current Chinese power structure over this.  How it will re-form is anyone's guess.
Remember when those times when you predicted that Russia was going to collapse?  It is all wishful thinking on your part. 

There are very few times that I actually take the time to respond to you.   Probably 10 times in the last two years  - even with the untold number of times you've attacked me.

However, my perspective does not come from where the Americans are.   Mine are coming from what the Chinese think about their own government.   Your limited perspective does not allow you to see that raising the standard of living for the Chinese is partly political.   

There are a number of workable government models.   Some are bordering on the Central Committee concept in place now.   But anyone who has actually read about Chinese politics will tell you that it is an autocratic society with whole segments of the government run by a single man who can almost never be fired.   Such a perspective is antiquated.   And the current crisis just put a microscope on it.

I am not of a mind to indulge you this evening.  But your thinking that everything that happens in China is the result of the US trying to influence international relations is just flat out wrong.   While the US is the largest customer, like every sales industry, the deal is made because the buyer wants to buy.   If you offend your buyer, they don't buy from you.

China has now reneged on countless contractual obligations to buy raw materials:   To purchase agricultural products, to partnership up with international pacts.   China is using the 'god' card to nullify those obligations.   What would happen if it came out that the virus was isolated and worked on, prior to its escape into the world, at the virology institute?

Do you not think that the workings of the Chinese government will not be held accountable in all of those relationships?   

For China to succeed, there has to be a transparency.   But China operates the old style communist regime.  It is not at all transparent.   

I am not fear mongering about this.   I am opening conversation about something that will be on everyone's lips in the next few months.   Had China been transparent about this at the onset, the push back would be minimal.   But the entire world knows that China is lying.   And so is that idiot who was leading the WHO.  And to think that China will escape world condemnation and a severe jolt to their economy is bordering on denial.
 

If you want the US to make it's own goods than advocate for it. It isn't China's fault that we Americans aren't willing to sacrifice to make our own product.   
Most people here only care about the price, trying to get them to care about where it is made is going to be a very difficult task.  I don't really think the US will be able to demonize China enough to change buyers from going for the best priced stuff. 
The talk about how China needs to change it's governance isn't up to us to determine what is 'best' for them.  They were already succeeding, their nation is preparing to overtake the US economy if they haven't already.

Fathertime! 
« Last Edit: April 05, 2020, 10:22:16 PM by fathertime »
I just happened to be browsing about the internet....

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Re: If China is Really Responsible......
« Reply #13 on: April 05, 2020, 11:33:46 PM »
I have my doubts.  I have a feeling Europe will deal with the lowest bidder no matter what.


Fact of the matter is that we (and probably anyone else) can't manufacture and sell goods as cheap as China has been doing.

I have a feeling that your second post carried more weight, made more sense and was more accurate ..

We'll be back, EU ..and as a certain 'gentleman' couldn't accept my offer to 'bury the hatchet' .. Don't trust a clueless Californian 'business owner' who cannot even quote me, honestly ..

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Re: If China is Really Responsible......
« Reply #14 on: April 05, 2020, 11:57:07 PM »
Why promulgate such rumours and speculation without a whit of evidence?  IIRC genetic manipulation has pretty much been ruled out by those studying the virus.

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Re: If China is Really Responsible......
« Reply #15 on: April 06, 2020, 12:01:43 AM »
Nevertheless, we should begin the process.

And what, give up capitalism and move towards collectivism?

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Re: If China is Really Responsible......
« Reply #16 on: April 06, 2020, 12:06:56 AM »
IIRC genetic manipulation has pretty much been ruled out by those studying the virus.


If you read all the articles pertaining to that, they have references and those references point out to Chinese studies done by Chinese medical scientists.

What we do know is there is no animal meat contaminated with the virus on earth. There is no cave of bats, snake pen, or herd of any kind of animals that's ever been detected with the virus. With the amount of lives being lost and trillions of dollars of damage to economies around the world, don't you think we should spend a few billion dollars to fund the largest manhunt in history to locate the animals carrying the virus so we don't have a repeat? Ask China how much time they spent on looking for the animals. They probably spent more time covering up the virus than they did looking for animals.
Do your part to limit the spread of COVID-19

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Re: If China is Really Responsible......
« Reply #17 on: April 06, 2020, 12:13:58 AM »
There is no cave of bats, snake pen, or herd of any kind of animals that's ever been detected with the virus.

Call the staff at the Bronx Zoo.  They will tell you otherwise.

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Re: If China is Really Responsible......
« Reply #18 on: April 06, 2020, 12:16:00 AM »
Call the staff at the Bronx Zoo.  They will tell you otherwise.

There's a pet dog in China that got the virus too. I though we are on the subject of the original animal carrier of the virus. There is no evidence of an animal being the original carrier.
Do your part to limit the spread of COVID-19

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Re: If China is Really Responsible......
« Reply #19 on: April 06, 2020, 12:31:59 AM »
There is no evidence of an animal being the original carrier.

So you say...

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Re: If China is Really Responsible......
« Reply #20 on: April 06, 2020, 03:23:05 AM »
Well,

I think we are going to get here sooner or later.   China has done too many things - lied about too many things - to escape unharmed.   Tell us what your thoughts are as you look in the refrigerator wondering if you go to the store you might catch Corona (and not the amber colored stuff).


My father's older brother Walter, Sergeant 1st class, 7th Army division, 31st infantry





Killed by Chinese communist troops December 5th 1950 at the Chosin Reservoir


China along with the New World Order elite, who set them up, are responsible for his death and the deaths that are occurring now. Those that cannot learn from history are doomed to repeat it.




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Re: If China is Really Responsible......
« Reply #21 on: April 06, 2020, 04:06:08 AM »
Much as I loved reading Tom Clancy novels, they tended to be very much Historian and Researcher Jack Ryan 'saving the day' from an incompetent President....rather than any overseas enemy))
We'll be back, EU ..and as a certain 'gentleman' couldn't accept my offer to 'bury the hatchet' .. Don't trust a clueless Californian 'business owner' who cannot even quote me, honestly ..

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Re: If China is Really Responsible......
« Reply #22 on: April 06, 2020, 06:50:03 AM »
As we are all starting to figure out, we're all in this together.   And, as time goes on, we will want to know the whole truth.   Not just part of the truth.  Or the spoon fed truth.   Or the disinformation truth.   No, we will not just want that truth.   We will demand it.


MEH, demand all you like, doesn't mean you are going to get it. Likely we'll never know the "truth". There are several conspiracy theories floating around. One being the covid19 was turned loose to cover up other Communist Chinese atrocities on their own people and the use of other bio weapons.

Early on most all of the experts identified covid 19 as man made and originating in a bat. For that virus to jump from a bat (if you know anything about viruses) to a human and become infectious is impossible. Viruses doesn't work that way. Enter WHO and the Chinese commies and it suddenly happened in the wet marketplace in Wuhan. As nasty as that place is, it doesn't happen there either.

Did you know the previous 10 or 12 viruses including SARS, West Nile, Swine, Ebola are all patented? They were developed and mutated in a lab and so was covid-19.

Your questions are for the WHO, the UN and the Chinese government, on where this virus came from, why it was unleashed and more importantly, why it was covered up

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Re: If China is Really Responsible......
« Reply #23 on: April 06, 2020, 07:08:37 AM »
Gross negligence - a conscious and voluntary disregard of the need to use reasonable care, which is likely to cause foreseeable grave injury or harm to persons, property, or both.

In December and January, unknown Chinese officials  decided to withhold if not conceal information about COVID-19.  Such is gross negligence in my opinion.  The question is whether these officials were acting on their own or did the decision come from well up the chain of command. 

More damning is that while China was withholding information about COVID-19, it deemed its domestic manufacturers could not meet the future demand for masks,  so China ordered huge numbers from foreign suppliers including the US.

   

The number of masks China ordered is much larger than this chart suggests.    In a CNBC interview today, Peter Navarro stated that China customs data show that China in the period January 24 - February 29  imported 2.2 billion medical masks .   I assert such increased imports would require approval from high up in the PRC government.

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Re: If China is Really Responsible......
« Reply #24 on: April 06, 2020, 08:22:08 AM »
FP

http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=24251.msg531513#msg531513

Rabies is also a virus that transmits to humans from animals.  Although reports of such are rare, human to human transmission seems to also be possible.  Even bats can develop rabies.

 

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