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Poll

If it turns out that the Woohan Institute of Virology incubated and accidentally distributed the Corona Virus what would be your response?

I would be upset with China but would not do anything.
2 (16.7%)
I would boycott China and everything it produces because the government hid a deathly plague
7 (58.3%)
I would believe China - that the disease really started in the US
0 (0%)
I would send China the bill for the lost economies and seek replacement of its government.
3 (25%)

Total Members Voted: 12

Voting closed: April 19, 2020, 02:15:29 PM

Author Topic: If China is Really Responsible......  (Read 11113 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline fathertime

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Re: If China is Really Responsible......
« Reply #125 on: April 09, 2020, 10:12:48 PM »
What action would you take? China often reports SARS, bird flus, and plagues. There's probably more they didn't report if they were successful silencing people. Are we to shut down borders and economy each time we hear a report?

I'm not privy to the same info trump is.  Depending on what the info was, I might have taken a dissimilar or similar route as trump took, but then I wouldn't go running around blaming china for it after.   Trump has chosen economy over the lives of people, many of which may have had short life spans remaining which perhaps he factored in.  That has been his choice.  China can't be blamed for trump's decision to not take the threat as seriously as it appeared was warranted. 

Fathertime!

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Offline mhr7

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Re: If China is Really Responsible......
« Reply #126 on: April 09, 2020, 10:46:27 PM »
From Snopes: 

What's True
During a Feb. 28, 2020, campaign rally in South Carolina, President Donald Trump likened the Democrats' criticism of his administration's response to the new coronavirus outbreak to their efforts to impeach him, saying "this is their new hoax." During the speech he also seemed to downplay the severity of the outbreak, comparing it to the common flu.


What's False
Despite creating some confusion with his remarks, Trump did not call the coronavirus itself a hoax.


Trump made the comments shortly before (but before nevertheless)  the first COVID-19 death in America.

I suppose you still consider yourself unbiased.  Yet, in your timeline you failed to mention Trump's January 29 ban of travelers from China.  How could you miss that?   Trump reminds us of that fact at almost every Task Force briefing.   

I never implied that he called the virus a hoax if that's your interpretation of my comments. The Task Force briefing would be better if Trump got out of the way and just let the experts speak.
Donald Trump is the first president in my lifetime who does not try to unite the American peopledoes not even pretend to try. Instead, he tries to divide us    James Mattis

Online msmob

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Re: If China is Really Responsible......
« Reply #127 on: April 09, 2020, 11:39:29 PM »
Not your finest moment, Buddy.

It was WHO that was stating that Corona was not transmittable, human to human.   It is almost like this guy was on the payroll of the Chinese. 

Hmm, REALLY ?


There was me thinking WHO published the Chinese govt's.  'preliminary findings'..


 
We'll be back, EU ..and as a certain 'gentleman' couldn't accept my offer to 'bury the hatchet' .. Don't trust a clueless Californian 'business owner' who cannot even quote me, honestly ..

Online Gator

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Re: If China is Really Responsible......
« Reply #128 on: April 10, 2020, 05:38:59 AM »
Must have been interesting program Gator. From what I understand it takes this virus approx 15 days to mutate( much slower than influenza). Last I read it was up to 11 strains identified.

It was.  However, I could not give it my full attention.  I was on a essential mission (medicine for a family member), driving one-way 35 miles on unfamiliar roads.   It seems the pharmacies are not fully stocked, as least with this particular med. 

Seeing all those empty parking lots along the way .....solemn reminder.   

Online Gator

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Re: If China is Really Responsible......
« Reply #129 on: April 10, 2020, 05:55:54 AM »
I never implied that he called the virus a hoax if that's your interpretation of my comments.

I checked with Snopes, and Snopes published:  "mhr7 speaks pravda."  ;)

Your statement "Trump calls coronavirus 'their new hoax' " was ambiguous to my feeble mind.   


 
Quote
The Task Force briefing would be better if Trump got out of the way and just let the experts speak.

Nothing ambiguous in that. 

I agree Trump should be more terse, yet if you can get past the fact you despise the President, there is substance in his less than captivating speaking style.  The President is obviously working tirelessly on all aspects of the pandemic, endeavoring to resolve national issues.  It is vital. 

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Re: If China is Really Responsible......
« Reply #130 on: April 10, 2020, 05:57:31 AM »
What's False
Despite creating some confusion with his remarks, Trump did not call the coronavirus itself a hoax.


I saw it yesterday and thought it ironic especially after calling Trump an idiot. LMAO. It was fitting to have left the post alone. A great display of people no longer capable of distinguishing reality from fake news.

At least he didnt accuse him of calling this virus a JV team.
Quote from: msmob
1. Because of 'man', global warming is causing desert and arid areas to suffer long, dry spell.
2. The 2018 Camp Fire and Woolsey California wildfires are forests burning because of global warming.
3. N95 mask will choke you dead after 30 min. of use.

Online Faux Pas

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Re: If China is Really Responsible......
« Reply #131 on: April 10, 2020, 07:17:04 AM »
I checked with Snopes, and Snopes published:  "mhr7 speaks pravda."  ;)

Your statement "Trump calls coronavirus 'their new hoax' " was ambiguous to my feeble mind.   


 
Nothing ambiguous in that. 

I agree Trump should be more terse, yet if you can get past the fact you despise the President, there is substance in his less than captivating speaking style.  The President is obviously working tirelessly on all aspects of the pandemic, endeavoring to resolve national issues.  It is vital.

Meh. In times of uncertainty folks want to see their president. IMO it is important that he address the nation with all the changes and/or updates. Trump's delivery style is his style. Is what it is kind of thing and if nothing else, it's been consistent. For the peeps that don't wish to see it, turn it off.

Offline ML

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Re: If China is Really Responsible......
« Reply #132 on: April 10, 2020, 07:18:33 AM »

I, personally, like the Chinese nationals that I have met.   But it is there government that is under fire, not them.

This is another cop-out like many here like to repeat regarding Russian people and Russian government.


When a government is bad and does terrible things, it is because of their people . . .
 who either support those actions or do nothing to stop or protest the actions.

Similar to blaming corporations.

Corporations and governments are not real entities.

It is the people behind such entities, and in the case of governments, not just the leaders but the citizens also.
Winston Churchill.  The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter.

Online Faux Pas

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Re: If China is Really Responsible......
« Reply #133 on: April 10, 2020, 07:22:14 AM »
This is another cop-out like many here like to repeat regarding Russian people and Russian government.


When a government is bad and does terrible things, it is because of their people . . .
 who either support those actions or do nothing to stop or protest the actions.

Similar to blaming corporations.

Corporations and governments are not real entities.

It is the people behind such entities, and in the case of governments, not just the leaders but the citizens also.

I disagree. Corporations and governments are real entities and do not always reflect the population. You're too black and white ML. I know you don't really believe that statement, do you? Oppression is in the mind of the oppressed?

Online msmob

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Re: If China is Really Responsible......
« Reply #134 on: April 10, 2020, 07:45:18 AM »
Meh. In times of uncertainty folks want to see their president. IMO it is important that he address the nation with all the changes and/or updates. Trump's delivery style is his style. Is what it is kind of thing and if nothing else, it's been consistent. For the peeps that don't wish to see it, turn it off.

It's been consistently inconsistent... for the peeps that can't help but see it and aren't 'victims'' of some sort of BS nullifying magic woofle dust..

PLENTY of 'Trampu' gaffs been posted here..

But in the spirit of fairness .. He's not alone..


The UK's very ofwn 'Health' Minister ...Jan 23rd 2020 ( The UK has the best test for this virus )   



Complaints 10 days ago  that our front line NHS staff are not being tested ..1.5 million of 'em


Response this week : "2000 have been tested   The tests are inaccurate .. "

 :deadhorse:






 
We'll be back, EU ..and as a certain 'gentleman' couldn't accept my offer to 'bury the hatchet' .. Don't trust a clueless Californian 'business owner' who cannot even quote me, honestly ..

Offline HoundDaddyLee

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Re: If China is Really Responsible......
« Reply #135 on: April 10, 2020, 07:57:47 AM »
Trump was briefed multiple times in late November and dismissed it.  We (The US) had enough time to take a lot more actions than we chose to take.  I think it was intentional.  I'd guess trump had probably already decided then that we(The US) would take minimal  and/or late action, and then blame china later for our tardy response and ensuing death count.  He knew he could count on his 'patriot' contingent to drum up some support and rancor towards China . 

Fathertime!


The ABC news report that he was briefed in November has been proven false. In fact, ABC was told by the same intelligence service it was false and they ran with it anyway.


HDL

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Re: If China is Really Responsible......
« Reply #136 on: April 10, 2020, 08:14:18 AM »
This is another cop-out like many here like to repeat regarding Russian people and Russian government.


When a government is bad and does terrible things, it is because of their people . . .
 who either support those actions or do nothing to stop or protest the actions.

Similar to blaming corporations.

Corporations and governments are not real entities.

It is the people behind such entities, and in the case of governments, not just the leaders but the citizens also.

Sheesh. The same exact mentality the likes of ISIS and Al Qeada harbor. Do you really see the world in this way?
Quote from: msmob
1. Because of 'man', global warming is causing desert and arid areas to suffer long, dry spell.
2. The 2018 Camp Fire and Woolsey California wildfires are forests burning because of global warming.
3. N95 mask will choke you dead after 30 min. of use.

Online BillyB

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Re: If China is Really Responsible......
« Reply #137 on: April 10, 2020, 08:17:13 AM »
The ABC news report that he was briefed in November has been proven false. In fact, ABC was told by the same intelligence service it was false and they ran with it anyway.

HDL

Fake news does it again. They knew story would hurt Trump so they ran with it anyway. Now they're caught lying, the correction to the front page story will be on page 43.
Do your part to limit the spread of COVID-19

Online GQBlues

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Re: If China is Really Responsible......
« Reply #138 on: April 10, 2020, 08:27:19 AM »
Meh. In times of uncertainty folks want to see their president. IMO it is important that he address the nation with all the changes and/or updates. Trump's delivery style is his style. Is what it is kind of thing and if nothing else, it's been consistent. For the peeps that don't wish to see it, turn it off.

The damnedest thing now, isnt it? Some folks like getting their heads beaten just so theyll have something to complain about.
Quote from: msmob
1. Because of 'man', global warming is causing desert and arid areas to suffer long, dry spell.
2. The 2018 Camp Fire and Woolsey California wildfires are forests burning because of global warming.
3. N95 mask will choke you dead after 30 min. of use.

Online Faux Pas

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Re: If China is Really Responsible......
« Reply #139 on: April 10, 2020, 08:41:34 AM »
The damnedest thing now, isnt it? Some folks like getting their heads beaten just so theyll have something to complain about.

Some people will bitch about being hung with a new rope

Offline LAman

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Re: If China is Really Responsible......
« Reply #140 on: April 10, 2020, 08:45:40 AM »
Some people will bitch about being hung with a new rope

And most people here will bitch about anything...just to make themselves seem relevant, before they go back to their lonely irrelevant lives!!! ((((
Life isn't tied with a bow, but it's still a gift

Offline mhr7

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Re: If China is Really Responsible......
« Reply #141 on: April 10, 2020, 12:02:49 PM »
I saw it yesterday and thought it ironic especially after calling Trump an idiot. LMAO. It was fitting to have left the post alone. A great display of people no longer capable of distinguishing reality from fake news.

At least he didnt accuse him of calling this virus a JV team.
Go back and read what I wrote. Did I say he called the virus a hoax?
Donald Trump is the first president in my lifetime who does not try to unite the American peopledoes not even pretend to try. Instead, he tries to divide us    James Mattis

Offline mhr7

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Re: If China is Really Responsible......
« Reply #142 on: April 10, 2020, 06:37:54 PM »
Is China hiding its death toll?

Donald Trump is the first president in my lifetime who does not try to unite the American peopledoes not even pretend to try. Instead, he tries to divide us    James Mattis

Online jone

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Re: If China is Really Responsible......
« Reply #143 on: April 10, 2020, 08:57:52 PM »
1.  This data is from the late part of February.

2.  His explanation seems to be based on the theory that if China wasn't telling the truth then they would have a 100% infection rates.

3.  China did not acknowledge any cases, even until mid March, of asymptomatic Covid 19.   Even then, it is unlikely that those figures made it into the government acknowledged accounting.

The underlying data that he used for this presentation has subsequently been proven false.   And still, we see that China, the epicenter for the disease, only has 3000 dead according to official government figures. 

Did you read the WHO report that I put above that claimed that there were no cases of Covid 19 that did not display symptoms?     

If the WHO is attempting to sell that perspective, what does that say about the government of China?   

And, do you, personally, mhr7, believe that China is telling the truth claiming 3000 dead when: Wuhan did not go into lockdown until the end of January.   At this point in time, the virus had been active in China for a full two and a half months.   

Now I realize that there are many perspectives out there.   But many of the intelligence agencies are gathering data demonstrating the true infection rate in China.   You have a guy like this, explaining how China couldn't have had a higher infection rate.   And yet, China, in its metropolitan centers, has a density rate higher than almost every other country in the world?   

He is selective in his facts.   I'm just curious if you are advocating his perspective or just presenting him as an alternative point of view.   As the Western World limps through another weekend with people dying, seeing that 3000 death toll figure from China is anathema to those who see it.

Happy quarantine weekend, my friend.
Kissing girls is a goodness.  It beats the hell out of card games.  - Robert Heinlein

Offline mhr7

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Re: If China is Really Responsible......
« Reply #144 on: April 10, 2020, 11:38:11 PM »
1. His data is from early February.
2. Wuhan shut down completely when they had 500 cases, New York shut down at 10,000 cases which is one HUGE reason China's death toll is lower than most people think it is and China's numbers work out consistently and as predicted.
3. There's no dead solid evidence that shows China is lying.

I give this man, Phil, my full faith and trust. He is a published research scientist and has a reputation of blowing the lid off of hoaxes, so why would he fall for China's hoax if that's what this is??
« Last Edit: April 10, 2020, 11:44:35 PM by mhr7 »
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Re: If China is Really Responsible......
« Reply #145 on: April 10, 2020, 11:41:56 PM »
Please source your figure for 'Wuhan shut down when they had 500 cases'.  That figure does not jive with ANYTHING I've seen.

Thanks.
Kissing girls is a goodness.  It beats the hell out of card games.  - Robert Heinlein

Offline mhr7

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Re: If China is Really Responsible......
« Reply #146 on: April 10, 2020, 11:48:48 PM »
Please source your figure for 'Wuhan shut down when they had 500 cases'.  That figure does not jive with ANYTHING I've seen.

Thanks.

Quote
Wuhan, Hubei's capital of 11 million people where the virus first emerged, has no trains or planes in or out.

At least five other provincial cities are seeing clampdowns on transport.

There are more than 500 confirmed cases of the virus, which has spread abroad, with Singapore and Vietnam the latest affected.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-51217455
« Last Edit: April 10, 2020, 11:50:33 PM by mhr7 »
Donald Trump is the first president in my lifetime who does not try to unite the American peopledoes not even pretend to try. Instead, he tries to divide us    James Mattis

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Re: If China is Really Responsible......
« Reply #147 on: April 10, 2020, 11:52:41 PM »
It is a complete lack of trust.

And the simple aphorism:  The more honest you are, the more trust you gain.....

http://time.com/5813628/china-coronavirus-statistics-wuhan/

The figures that Time extrapolates from the data received is 46,000 deaths in Hubei Province, alone.

In the above article it states that the only time China would acknowledge a death is when it happened in a hospital and was confirmed.  Considering that the hospitals were full and that people were dying at home because they were refused care at a hospital, makes Chinese figures even more dubious.

I would be interested in a small wager.  Gentleman's bet.   As of right now you're winning.   Because you think China only had the reported number of people who died.

I think that the figure is closer to the estimates in Time Magazine.   So let's say, after 3 months, if the Chinese figure has not been revised to be at least three times the current figure, you win.  But if credible sources claim it to be higher than three times the current reported figure, then I win.

The loser has to post on the forum that he was wrong and the winner was right as a separate post.

But I would not take the bet, if I were you.   It is a sure loser.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2020, 12:01:21 AM by jone »
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Re: If China is Really Responsible......
« Reply #148 on: April 11, 2020, 12:16:26 AM »
.
2. Wuhan shut down completely when they had 500 cases,

I give this man, Phil, my full faith and trust. He is a published research scientist and has a reputation of blowing the lid off of hoaxes, so why would he fall for China's hoax if that's what this is??


You two must really trust the Chinese government to think there was only 500 cases before the lockdown. In a city of 11 million people, 5 million residents left before the lockdown. A handful of cases wouldn't have spooked them, especially since the Chinese government told everybody the virus isn't human to human transferable. The people called BS on that. With all the people fleeing the city before the lockdown, it's a virus's dream.
Do your part to limit the spread of COVID-19

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Re: If China is Really Responsible......
« Reply #149 on: April 11, 2020, 04:30:58 AM »

The ABC news report that he was briefed in November has been proven false. In fact, ABC was told by the same intelligence service it was false and they ran with it anyway.


HDL
I haven't seen anything as of yet that shows the ABC report was false.  Can you show me what you used to determine it was false.   

My impression remains that Trump had made a decision to keep the US relatively open despite knowing the risks. 

Fathertime! 
I just happened to be browsing about the internet....

 

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