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Poll

If it turns out that the Woohan Institute of Virology incubated and accidentally distributed the Corona Virus what would be your response?

I would be upset with China but would not do anything.
2 (16.7%)
I would boycott China and everything it produces because the government hid a deathly plague
7 (58.3%)
I would believe China - that the disease really started in the US
0 (0%)
I would send China the bill for the lost economies and seek replacement of its government.
3 (25%)

Total Members Voted: 12

Voting closed: April 19, 2020, 02:15:29 PM

Author Topic: If China is Really Responsible......  (Read 16374 times)

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Offline ML

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Re: If China is Really Responsible......
« Reply #75 on: April 08, 2020, 12:16:01 PM »
Would be great if we could move the conversation to a higher plane by using Latin as BC and Jone are doing.

We should have started this ab initio.

And stop the attacks ab irato.

Or, if we do speak ill of someone, then at least append absit iniuria verbis.

For myself, I will repeat what Ren probably really said: bibo ergo sum
« Last Edit: April 08, 2020, 12:19:11 PM by ML »
Winston Churchill.  The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter.

Offline jone

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Re: If China is Really Responsible......
« Reply #76 on: April 08, 2020, 12:56:33 PM »
Would be great if we could move the conversation to a higher plane by using Latin as BC and Jone are doing.

We should have started this ab initio.

And stop the attacks ab irato.

Or, if we do speak ill of someone, then at least append absit iniuria verbis.

For myself, I will repeat what Ren probably really said: bibo ergo sum

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Re: If China is Really Responsible......
« Reply #77 on: April 08, 2020, 02:24:24 PM »
Why don't you put more efforts to develop better capability to fight infectious diseases instead of to blame China? Otherwise  USA must  take responsibility for the 1918 flu pandemic (Spanish flu), which originated in Kansas according to some researchers.

I don't blame China for the evolution of the specific virus.   IMO it is unlikely that the virus was purposefully developed in a bio-weapons laboratory and accidentally released.  Instead I feel the virus resulted from mutations within the ecosystem, possibly affected unknowingly by human activity.     

I do blame China for withholding important information that should have been shared immediately with the world.   I blame China for hoarding world supplies of certain medical equipment while not informing the world that the virus is very contagious and will be needing such equipment.  I blame China for not curtailing human movement sooner. 


Quote
By the way, USA were claimed by Global Health Security Index to be the best prepared for rapid response to and mitigation of the spread of an epidemics. First two positions in this rating were taken by USA and United Kingdom. China was 51st, Russia was 63d.

I know, and posted such at RWD some time ago.  Even America at the top had many areas needing improvement, hence a grade of around 82 out of 100, a B- in school marks.   

And we discovered immediately our testing was inadequate, slowing our capability to get control.  For sure the US showed it had excellent ability to mobilize medical resources.  Throughout history America has overcome many challenges due to our ingenuity. 

It will be interesting to see what grades will be given to each nation regarding their responses.  I wonder if the US will make the Top 10.  I expect New Zealand, Singapore and South Korea to grade at the top.  Each of them responded quickly and decisively.   The jury is still out, however.    Much to learn about this pathogen.


Offline jone

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Re: If China is Really Responsible......
« Reply #78 on: April 08, 2020, 02:38:23 PM »
Consider what this Professor Emeritus points out as to the world's reaction to the virus:

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2020/04/08/how_the_wuhan_virus_will_change_the_world_order_142886.html
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Offline jone

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Re: If China is Really Responsible......
« Reply #79 on: April 08, 2020, 02:48:06 PM »
And another one:   Typical of what to expect from China:

http://spectator.us/pompeo-china-more-transparent/


Do any of the forum members believe, as I do, that China is more concerned about their economy than they are about solving the virus question?
« Last Edit: April 08, 2020, 02:50:01 PM by jone »
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Re: If China is Really Responsible......
« Reply #80 on: April 08, 2020, 03:18:35 PM »
I don't blame China for the evolution of the specific virus.  IMO it is unlikely that the virus was purposefully developed in a bio-weapons laboratory and accidentally released.  Instead I feel the virus resulted from mutations within the ecosystem, possibly affected unknowingly by human activity.     

I do blame China for withholding important information that should have been shared immediately with the world.   I blame China for hoarding world supplies of certain medical equipment while not informing the world that the virus is very contagious and will be needing such equipment.  I blame China for not curtailing human movement sooner. 


To many questions and not near enough answers at this point. I'm not ready to say it wasn't purposely developed and released intentionally. Was it China or was China just a staging area? We do know that the WHO was parroting China's explanation as early as November as righteous and continuing on through January. With such a contagion why did they take it so lightly for so long? The world isn't just dependent on China, it's much more dependent on the WHO

Offline GQBlues

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Re: If China is Really Responsible......
« Reply #81 on: April 08, 2020, 03:18:58 PM »
And another one:   Typical of what to expect from China:

http://spectator.us/pompeo-china-more-transparent/


Do any of the forum members believe, as I do, that China is more concerned about their economy than they are about solving the virus question?

Haven't this always been the underlying motto of ant mentality/communism? The whole will always outweigh the sum of its parts.

China never felt it owes the global community any obligation. Especially not after what happened in WW II when it felt abandoned by its overlord for rape and murder. I am not certain why many of you seem so surprised by any of this?

China had always 'abstained' in any UN/global political decisions. China, alone, had long learned to look only after itself. Relying on someone else will be damning.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2020, 03:21:05 PM by GQBlues »
Quote from: msmob
1. Because of 'man', global warming is causing desert and arid areas to suffer long, dry spell.
2. The 2018 Camp Fire and Woolsey California wildfires are forests burning because of global warming.
3. N95 mask will choke you dead after 30 min. of use.

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Re: If China is Really Responsible......
« Reply #82 on: April 08, 2020, 03:30:32 PM »

China had always 'abstained' in any UN/global political decisions. China, alone, had long learned to look only after itself. Relying on someone else will be damning.

China in time will become a superpower equivalent to the US.  We need to learn how to live with them peacefully.

The post-pandemic politics will be fluid. 

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Re: If China is Really Responsible......
« Reply #83 on: April 08, 2020, 03:35:17 PM »
Consider what this Professor Emeritus points out as to the world's reaction to the virus:

He wrote something new to me about how the hoarding was not confined to China: 

"Facing potential shortages of medical supplies for their own citizens, some EU nations have erected temporary export barriers. The most shocking was Germany, which chose to block some ventilators and masks from being shipped to Italy, which needed them desperately. (France did the same thing.) Since Germany is both a strong EU supporter and the continents biggest economy, its decision is a troubling sign for European integration."

We can not throw stones because I believed we did something similar Canada, even though we have the USMCA treaty. 

Offline GQBlues

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Re: If China is Really Responsible......
« Reply #84 on: April 08, 2020, 03:44:43 PM »
He wrote something new to me about how the hoarding was not confined to China: 

"Facing potential shortages of medical supplies for their own citizens, some EU nations have erected temporary export barriers. The most shocking was Germany, which chose to block some ventilators and masks from being shipped to Italy, which needed them desperately. (France did the same thing.) Since Germany is both a strong EU supporter and the continents biggest economy, its decision is a troubling sign for European integration."

We can not throw stones because I believed we did something similar Canada, even though we have the USMCA treaty.

Inadvertently. It's the knee-jerk reaction against 3M. Trudeau stepped right in and changed that pronto. So it never actually happened.

We did however, pirated shipments of PPEs going to EU, and had it shipped to us. Smart :devil:
Quote from: msmob
1. Because of 'man', global warming is causing desert and arid areas to suffer long, dry spell.
2. The 2018 Camp Fire and Woolsey California wildfires are forests burning because of global warming.
3. N95 mask will choke you dead after 30 min. of use.

Online BillyB

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Re: If China is Really Responsible......
« Reply #85 on: April 08, 2020, 03:53:20 PM »
He wrote something new to me about how the hoarding was not confined to China: 

"Facing potential shortages of medical supplies for their own citizens, some EU nations have erected temporary export barriers. The most shocking was Germany, which chose to block some ventilators and masks from being shipped to Italy, which needed them desperately. (France did the same thing.) Since Germany is both a strong EU supporter and the continents biggest economy, its decision is a troubling sign for European integration."

We can not throw stones because I believed we did something similar Canada, even though we have the USMCA treaty.

We shouldn't expect drowning people to be saved by drowning people. Sure Italy was drowning first but I don't blame Germany or France for holding ventilators and PPE for their own people who they have a responsibility to first because they knew eventually they would be drowning themselves.

Trump made calls to see if nations would give America equipment. Putin did. Putin also gave Italy some things. As Russia face their epidemic, some people will question Putin's actions to take care of others before his own citizens. For the politicians of Germany and France, it may have been political suicide to help Italy at the expense of their own citizens.

We did however, pirated shipments of PPEs going to EU, and had it shipped to us. Smart :devil:


Trump said at a briefing pirating did happen but the other way around and he stopped it. I don't blame Europe if they try to cut in line to get products for their people. Politicians, unlike dictators, have to answer to their people or they get voted out.
Do your part to limit the spread of COVID-19

Offline fathertime

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Re: If China is Really Responsible......
« Reply #86 on: April 09, 2020, 05:42:35 AM »

Do any of the forum members believe, as I do, that China is more concerned about their economy than they are about solving the virus question?
China walked the walk, shut down for real for 76 days....Trump appears to be choosing economy over virus.  So it appears your assertion isn't valid.

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Offline fathertime

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Re: If China is Really Responsible......
« Reply #87 on: April 09, 2020, 05:48:37 AM »
Nice ad hominem attacks.
You continue to make ridiculous anti-china assertions and while being cruel towards you, those assertions have been challenged.    It appears China isn't doing too bad, and are leading more worldwide than the US to help countries.  They have the capacity to do that, while we in the USA do not.  Currently our own hospitals are severely lacking which is probably leading to even more cases within the hospitals. 

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Offline fathertime

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Re: If China is Really Responsible......
« Reply #88 on: April 09, 2020, 05:53:01 AM »
China in time will become a superpower equivalent to the US.  We need to learn how to live with them peacefully.
 
...and that time is probably already here.   How is a 'superpower' defined?  It hasn't been the US way to live peacefully with rivals, but the old ways are no longer working.  China could take us out the same way we could take them out.  They have way more factory capacity than we do.  They can produce products for the world.  We can produce food and weapons. 

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Offline Belvis

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Re: If China is Really Responsible......
« Reply #89 on: April 09, 2020, 06:14:09 AM »
I don't blame China for the evolution of the specific virus.   IMO it is unlikely
I do blame China for withholding important information that should have been shared immediately with the world.   I blame China for hoarding world supplies of certain medical equipment while not informing the world that the virus is very contagious and will be needing such equipment.  I blame China for not curtailing human movement sooner. 

Sorry, but let's get back in January 2020 and look honestly at the position of USA when coronavirus has killed only 9 people in China, i.e. epidemic was in its starting point before spreading over world.
Trump told on 24th Jan.: "We have it under control. Its going to be just fine." By the end of January 170 were dead of coronavirus, and Russia had closed the border with China. Everybody by this time were aware about the coming problem, but the question was how to react.
US administration hoped for the best by the end of January: 
http://www.bbc.com/news/business-51276323
Quote
US commerce secretary Wilbur Ross has said the deadly coronavirus outbreak in China could be positive for the American economy.
I see as flaws and shortcomings of the national healthcare are being tried to use in global  US-China trade war. It does not seem fair to blame China for failures of own politicians.

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Re: If China is Really Responsible......
« Reply #90 on: April 09, 2020, 06:24:29 AM »
Sorry, but let's get back in January 2020 and look honestly at the position of USA when coronavirus has killed only 9 people in China, i.e. epidemic was in its starting point before spreading over world.
Trump told on 24th Jan.: "We have it under control. It’s going to be just fine." By the end of January 170 were dead of coronavirus, and Russia had closed the border with China. Everybody by this time were aware about the coming problem, but the question was how to react.
US administration hoped for the best by the end of January: 
http://www.bbc.com/news/business-51276323I see as flaws and shortcomings of the national healthcare are being tried to use in global  US-China trade war. It does not seem fair to blame China for failures of own politicians.

The caveat here no one seems to highlight is the WHO whom, just prior to Trumps proclamation of "we have it under control"  the WHO announced 10 days earlier that there was no human to human transmission. All the while the Chinese government knew there was a serious problem and likely pandemic. Trump responded at the time to what he knew. It's what he didn't know that was, that the WHO nor China could not be trusted and there was not ample information. China was either a)covering it's ass b) carrying out their agenda and the WHO was complicit in aiding either that cover up or agenda

Offline jone

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Re: If China is Really Responsible......
« Reply #91 on: April 09, 2020, 06:24:39 AM »
I was misspoken.   I felt that we wouldn't begin to hear from the American public for one or two months.   Here is an opinon/article from USA Today:

http://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2020/04/07/time-put-china-lockdown-dishonesty-amid-coronavirus-pandemic-crisis-column/2954433001/

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Offline fathertime

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Re: If China is Really Responsible......
« Reply #92 on: April 09, 2020, 06:44:38 AM »
I was misspoken.   I felt that we wouldn't begin to hear from the American public for one or two months.   Here is an opinon/article from USA Today:

http://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2020/04/07/time-put-china-lockdown-dishonesty-amid-coronavirus-pandemic-crisis-column/2954433001/
These types of opinion pieces are always around, before the virus, during the virus and will be after the virus.  They will represent a minority opinion, that people such as yourself will attempt to pretend is a majority opinion.  It remains an effort to elevate the US by destroying it's rival.  It may play a bit in the USA although much of the world will see right through it.  Through hard work, China can stand toe to toe with the US and that disturbs some 'patriots' and makes them try to discredit and blame China for our own shortcomings.   If we (The US) are so upset over China, why aren't we working hard and producing our own products?   

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Offline fathertime

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Re: If China is Really Responsible......
« Reply #93 on: April 09, 2020, 06:50:08 AM »
http://www.bbc.com/news/business-51276323I see as flaws and shortcomings of the national healthcare are being tried to use in global  US-China trade war. It does not seem fair to blame China for failures of own politicians.
We in the US will find a way to blame others while it will be our nation that leads the way in deaths soon.  Everybody else is doing things wrong or lying, and we are doing things right, which is why we will lead the world in deaths from the virus.  For the US, as evidenced by a couple posters here,  the focus is on blame as much as anything else.  Why would the richest nation in the world not have enough supplies in hospitals, while other nations have what they need? 

Fathertime!
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Re: If China is Really Responsible......
« Reply #94 on: April 09, 2020, 06:54:27 AM »
Trump told on 24th Jan.: "We have it under control. Its going to be just fine." By the end of January 170 were dead of coronavirus, and Russia had closed the border with China. Everybody by this time were aware about the coming problem, but the question was how to react.


Both USA and Russia took action against China in late January. America's infection problem came from Europe, not China. The majority of infections in Russia will also be coming from Europe.



In other news a response to Trump wanting to cut funding from WHO:

If you dont want many more body bags you refrain from politicizing it please quarantine politicizing COVID, WHO Director Dr. Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus told reporters in a lengthy answer when asked about Trumps criticism of the agency.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/who-director-hits-back-at-trump-threat-to-defund-agency/ar-BB12kO1v?ocid=spartanntp
Do your part to limit the spread of COVID-19

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China is Really Responsible......
« Reply #95 on: April 09, 2020, 07:04:13 AM »
Did WHO's China ties slow decision to declare emergency?
http://asia.nikkei.com/Spotlight/Coronavirus/Did-WHO-s-China-ties-slow-decision-to-declare-emergency


China Helped Put This Man In Charge Of the World Health OrganizationIs It Paying Off?
What does Director-General Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus owe to Beijing?

http://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/china-helped-put-man-charge-world-health-organization%E2%80%94-it-paying-136002



Top WHO Official Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus Won Election With Chinas Help. Now Hes Running Interference For China On Coronavirus
http://dailycaller.com/2020/03/22/who-director-general-tedros-adhanom-ghebreyesus-china-coronavirus-pandemic-cover-up/



China and the WHO's chief: Hold them both accountable for pandemic
http://thehill.com/opinion/international/487851-china-and-the-whos-chief-hold-them-both-accountable-for-pandemic


The WHO and China: Dereliction of Duty
http://www.cfr.org/blog/who-and-china-dereliction-duty


The coronavirus crisis is raising questions over China's relationship with the World Health Organization
http://www.cnn.com/2020/02/14/asia/coronavirus-who-china-intl-hnk/index.html


Mission impossible? WHO director fights to prevent a pandemic without offending China
http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/02/mission-impossible-who-director-fights-prevent-pandemic-without-offending-china


WHO and Its Leader Play Chinas Puppets on Coronavirus
http://www.heritage.org/asia/commentary/who-and-its-leader-play-chinas-puppets-coronavirus



Blaming the WHO and China Is Not Scapegoating
http://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2020/04/08/who-china-trump-coronavirus-176242


Dr WHO?
The World Health Organisation launders Chinas appalling record

http://www.spectator.com.au/2020/03/dr-who/


« Last Edit: April 09, 2020, 07:11:21 AM by 2tallbill »
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Re: If China is Really Responsible......
« Reply #97 on: April 09, 2020, 08:13:52 AM »
And the response begins to ratchet up:

http://www.dailywire.com/news/ag-barr-the-chinese-are-engaged-in-a-full-court-blitzkrieg-against-the-u-s

The timing of the Harvard professor and the two Chinese nationals is highly suspicious. We would be remiss if we thought they were the only ones

http://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/harvard-university-professor-and-two-chinese-nationals-charged-three-separate-china-related

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Re: If China is Really Responsible......
« Reply #98 on: April 09, 2020, 01:52:14 PM »
The last recent years saw approximately 40,000 - 70,000 opioid related deaths/year in the US. Many blames the synthetic drug Fentanyl greatly attributed to the opioid crisis we experienced in this country. Revelation showed, these illegal supply of fentanyl that flooded the US were made and imported from, where else, China.

Quote
I went really deep and tried to learn everything I could about this problem, and that brought me to China. I actually went undercover into a pair of Chinese drug operations, including, I went into a fentanyl lab outside Shanghai. And I was pretending to be a drug dealer. What I learned was that these companies making fentanyl and other dangerous drugs are subsidized by the government. And so when they work in these suburban office parks, for example, the building, the costs for research and development, they have these development zones, they get export tax breaks.

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/chinas-role-in-the-us-fentanyl-epidemic-152338423.html

Did we do anything about it? Of course not. Nearly 750,000 Americans dead. Opioid crisis went about its course and business over the last two administrations before this current one did something to stop this problem. Americans barely cared because the media didn't flood our consciousness about this tragic crisis on a daily basis.

Did China get in trouble? NO. So what makes all of you believe they'll get in trouble for an epidemic that so far pales in comparison in terms of fatalities.

http://www.drugabuse.gov/related-topics/trends-statistics/overdose-death-rates
« Last Edit: April 09, 2020, 01:54:31 PM by GQBlues »
Quote from: msmob
1. Because of 'man', global warming is causing desert and arid areas to suffer long, dry spell.
2. The 2018 Camp Fire and Woolsey California wildfires are forests burning because of global warming.
3. N95 mask will choke you dead after 30 min. of use.

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Re: If China is Really Responsible......
« Reply #99 on: April 09, 2020, 02:24:35 PM »

Did China get in trouble? NO. So what makes all of you believe they'll get in trouble for an epidemic that so far pales in comparison in terms of fatalities.

http://www.drugabuse.gov/related-topics/trends-statistics/overdose-death-rates

Currently COVID-19 is the #1 killer of Americans daily and that is with massive activity or should I say inactivity to keep the deaths from growing exponentially. COVID-19 is going to put the World in a depression. This is not going to get solved soon. The more economies are ruined, deaths mount, and the longer our lives are disrupted, the more backlash China will have to face. If this thing ended tomorrow, China may not get in trouble but deep down, we know we are in a struggle that will last for years. Already all jobs gained during Obama and Trump's years have been wiped out in less than a month. 10+ years of gains lost in a month. Italy has 80 doctors and 20 nurses dead, and 12,000 medical personnel infected right now. There's a lot of bad news going around the world and if governments don't take action against China, individuals will by boycotting their products forcing manufactures to make products elsewhere. WHO also needs to be dealt with. The experts running the show assisted China in deceiving the world and gave out bad advice telling nations to keep borders open.

Do your part to limit the spread of COVID-19

 

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