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Author Topic: Red or Blue states should secede from USA  (Read 777 times)

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Offline ML

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Red or Blue states should secede from USA
« on: September 15, 2020, 10:14:14 AM »
Each day, I get more and more sick thinking about what is happening to our country, and I see no real hope for the future.

It seems to me that the only solution is a breaking apart of the USA into 2 separate nations, each majority ruled by either red or blue partisans.  There are two major questions:

1) Could the two separate nations survive independently ?  The Blue nation would logically (based on most recent voting patterns) be comprised of California, Oregon and Washington, and most of the states along the upper East Coast.  The Red Nation would consist of the remainder and would have sea ports along the Atlantic Ocean and Gulf of Mexico.  Could this Red Nation survive without ports along the Pacific to trade with the Far East?

2) Legality for those states that make the first move to secede.  Below is from Wikipedia.

Disputed legality of unilateral secession
The Constitution does not directly mention secession.[53] The legality of secession was hotly debated in the 19th century. Although the Federalist Party briefly explored New England secession during the War of 1812, secession became associated with Southern states as the North's industrial power increased.[54] The Supreme Court has consistently interpreted the Constitution to be an "indestructible" union.[53] The Articles of Confederation explicitly state the Union is "perpetual"; the U.S. Constitution declares itself an even "more perfect union" than the Articles of Confederation.[55] Other scholars, while not necessarily disagreeing that the secession was illegal, point out that sovereignty is often de facto an "extralegal" question. Had the Confederacy won, any illegality of its actions under U.S. law would have been rendered irrelevant, just as the undisputed illegality of American rebellion under the British law of 1775 was rendered irrelevant. Thus, these scholars argue, the illegality of unilateral secession was not firmly de facto established until the Union won the Civil War; in this view, the legal question was resolved at Appomattox.[54][56]

Supreme Court rulings
Texas v. White[55] was argued before the United States Supreme Court during the December 1868 term. Chief Justice Salmon P. Chase read the Court's decision, on April 15, 1869.[57] Australian Professors Peter Radan and Aleksandar Pavkovic write:

Chase, [Chief Justice], ruled in favor of Texas on the ground that the Confederate state government in Texas had no legal existence on the basis that the secession of Texas from the United States was illegal. The critical finding underpinning the ruling that Texas could not secede from the United States was that, following its admission to the United States in 1845, Texas had become part of "an indestructible Union, composed of indestructible states". In practical terms, this meant that Texas has never seceded from the United States.[58]

However, the Court's decision recognized some possibility of the divisibility "through revolution, or through consent of the States".[58][59]

In 1877, the Williams v. Bruffy[60] decision was rendered, pertaining to Civil War debts. The Court wrote regarding acts establishing an independent government that "The validity of its acts, both against the parent state and the citizens or subjects thereof, depends entirely upon its ultimate success; if it fail to establish itself permanently, all such acts perish with it; if it succeed and become recognized, its acts from the commencement of its existence are upheld as those of an independent nation."[58][61]

The Union as a sovereign state
Historian Kenneth Stampp notes that a historical case against secession had been made that argued that "the Union is older than the states" and that "the provision for a perpetual Union in the Articles of Confederation" was carried over into the Constitution by the "reminder that the preamble to the new Constitution gives us one of its purposes the formation of 'a more perfect Union'".[21] Concerning the White decision Stampp wrote:

In 1869, when the Supreme Court, in Texas v. White, finally rejected as untenable the case for a constitutional right of secession, it stressed this historical argument. The Union, the Court said, "never was a purely artificial and arbitrary relation". Rather, "It began among the Colonies. ...It was confirmed and strengthened by the necessities of war, and received definite form, and character, and sanction from the Articles of Confederation."[21]
Winston Churchill.  “The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter.”

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Re: Red or Blue states should secede from USA
« Reply #1 on: September 15, 2020, 10:37:44 AM »
The Blue nation would logically (based on most recent voting patterns) be comprised of California, Oregon and Washington, and most of the states along the upper East Coast.

Similar to the partitioning of East and West Pakistan with tens of millions dislocated.  Would Chicago migrate to the West or East?

The Red States would be running a fiscal surplus from Day One. 

Would Red come to the defense of  Blue when Mexico invades California to regain lands stolen from it in the 19th C.   I say California because Mexico would never invade Texas. 

Hopefully we regain our senses. 


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Re: Red or Blue states should secede from USA
« Reply #2 on: September 15, 2020, 12:06:38 PM »
Hopefully we regain our senses.

I fear we may well be too far gone for that. Congress and Trump have only accelerated an inevitable upheaval.  If we can't work together to fight a teenie weenie bug how can one expect to deal with the larger problems we have as a nation.

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Red or Blue states should secede from USA
« Reply #3 on: September 15, 2020, 01:28:57 PM »
There are two major questions:

ML,

Article 5 of the U.S. Constitution gives states the power to call a Convention of States
to propose amendments to the constitution. During the convention of States they can
decide things without the House or the Senate. 

You can read Article 5 here.
http://www.archives.gov/founding-docs/constitution-transcript#toc-article-v-
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Re: Red or Blue states should secede from USA
« Reply #4 on: September 15, 2020, 01:38:17 PM »
Were it ever to come to that, my state, California, would form The California Republic and invite the states of Washington, Oregon and possibly Arizona and Nevada to join.

More and more Californians are leaving the state.   Preferential destinations:  Colorado, Arizona.  Colorado has swung five points to the blue since this exodus began.   Real estate prices in Denver have exploded.
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Re: Red or Blue states should secede from USA
« Reply #5 on: September 15, 2020, 01:59:09 PM »
There was already a war fought over that once. Of course then the Union had nothing to gain over letting a secession happen in 1861. No so much the case now

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Re: Red or Blue states should secede from USA
« Reply #6 on: September 15, 2020, 02:10:00 PM »
Believe it or not, the South tried to secede a second time.   The KKK, the Red Shirts, the White League, all were created in an effort to prevent African Americans from voting.  The end to reconstruction did not mean an end to these organizations.   Many of the members felt that the only way for them to succeed was to secede.   Again.  These efforts did not abate until after the Great Migration and the onset of the second world war.
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Re: Red or Blue states should secede from USA
« Reply #7 on: September 15, 2020, 02:13:11 PM »
Were it ever to come to that, my state, California, would form The California Republic and invite the states of Washington, Oregon and possibly Arizona and Nevada to join.

More and more Californians are leaving the state.   Preferential destinations:  Colorado, Arizona.  Colorado has swung five points to the blue since this exodus began.   Real estate prices in Denver have exploded.

Why would the "four" want California?  Given the situation, would California not be  the one begging?

Given its many citizens and residents of Mexican lineage, California decides instead to become part of Mexico.    And all those California white folks migrate to the four just like the Hindi millions and millions leaving Pakistan in 1947.

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Re: Red or Blue states should secede from USA
« Reply #8 on: September 15, 2020, 02:14:46 PM »
Believe it or not, the South tried to secede a second time.   The KKK, the Red Shirts, the White League, all were created in an effort to prevent African Americans from voting.  The end to reconstruction did not mean an end to these organizations.   Many of the members felt that the only way for them to succeed was to secede.   Again.  These efforts did not abate until after the Great Migration and the onset of the second world war.

Ah no. Those groups attempting to prevent or suppress blacks from voting doesn't hardly reach a level of secession jone. In fact the democrats were trying to do that right up to and including the civil rights act of 64

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Re: Red or Blue states should secede from USA
« Reply #9 on: September 15, 2020, 02:41:31 PM »
Why would the "four" want California?  Given the situation, would California not be  the one begging?

Given its many citizens and residents of Mexican lineage, California decides instead to become part of Mexico.    And all those California white folks migrate to the four just like the Hindi millions and millions leaving Pakistan in 1947.


There was an exodus in the 80s and early 90s, mostly headed to Arizona when many of the defense aeronautic companies relocated. Then the decade of 90s and Y2k saw (Seattle) Washington / Texas began receiving a lot of these Californians. The influx to Nevada was always mild but constant.


But California isn't exactly like New Zealand where it loses a nice portion of its population to everywhere else every year. The 'incoming' still outnumber those it loses in terms of population growth. Domestic migration is a whole other matter.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2020, 02:45:41 PM by GQBlues »
Quote from: msmob
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2. The 2018 Camp Fire and Woolsey California wildfires are forests burning because of global warming.
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Re: Red or Blue states should secede from USA
« Reply #10 on: September 15, 2020, 02:52:25 PM »
Federal government owns land in every State. Most States exist because the federal government created them. California governor seems to think the federal government owns 57% of California. No State, County, City, or even you as a property owner has a right to secede and start your own country just because you don't like the duly elected President. You can move out of the country but leave the land behind. Anybody thinks they are going to secede without a fight has another thing coming. Lincoln didn't let anybody leave. Neither should we.

http://bigthink.com/strange-maps/291-federal-lands-in-the-us
« Last Edit: September 15, 2020, 02:56:43 PM by BillyB »
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Re: Red or Blue states should secede from USA
« Reply #11 on: September 15, 2020, 03:05:22 PM »



But California isn't exactly like New Zealand where it loses a nice portion of its population to everywhere else every year.

Hmm,

1979 NZ population .4 million

2018 NZ population 1.9 million

Source: World Bank

We'll be back, EU ..and as a certain 'gentleman' couldn't accept my offer to 'bury the hatchet' .. Don't trust a clueless Californian 'business owner' who cannot even quote me, honestly ..

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Re: Red or Blue states should secede from USA
« Reply #12 on: September 15, 2020, 03:29:43 PM »
Hmm,

1979 NZ population .4 million

2018 NZ population 1.9 million

Source: World Bank


Somewhere out there someone understand there's a difference between growth rate from outgoing/incoming migration. This is not the place.


For example:
Quote
Over the past 20 years, California has experienced its slowest rates of growth ever recorded, and growth has been especially slow since 2017. According to estimates by the California Department of Finance, California’s population grew by 7.3% (or 2.7 million) from 2010 to the end of 2019; this rate is only slightly higher than the national rate of 6.3%. International migration to California has remained strong, with a net inflow of 1.5 million. But net domestic migration has been negative: about 900,000 more people left California for other states than came to California from other states. Natural increase—the difference between births and deaths—added 2.2 million residents. But birth rates are at record lows and the number of deaths is increasing as the population ages.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2020, 03:48:53 PM by GQBlues »
Quote from: msmob
1. Because of 'man', global warming is causing desert and arid areas to suffer long, dry spell.
2. The 2018 Camp Fire and Woolsey California wildfires are forests burning because of global warming.
3. N95 mask will choke you dead after 30 min. of use.

Offline ML

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Re: Red or Blue states should secede from USA
« Reply #13 on: September 15, 2020, 04:52:00 PM »
Anybody thinks they are going to secede without a fight has another thing coming.

Billy, there need not be a war.  As I quoted from Wiki:

"However, the Court's decision recognized some possibility of the divisibility 'through revolution, or through consent of the States' "
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Re: Red or Blue states should secede from USA
« Reply #14 on: September 15, 2020, 05:50:42 PM »
Billy, there need not be a war.  As I quoted from Wiki:

"However, the Court's decision recognized some possibility of the divisibility 'through revolution, or through consent of the States' "


The Supreme Court doesn't make law and because there is no law that allows a State to secede, they offered an opinion. Pertaining to Texas vs White, Supreme Court justice Antonin Scalia stated, "If there was any constitutional issue resolved by the Civil War, it is that there is no right to secede."


As far as possibilities go according to the Supreme Court, If a group of States kick America's ass making America too weak to stop them from leaving, then yes, that is a possibility but there isn't a law that allows States to do that. If consent is to happen, the Constitution needs to be ratified but the Constitution only gets ratified for important matters such as equality. Seceding is not a very important topic and it's certainly not a right or protection for The People which the Constitution primary purpose is for.
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Re: Red or Blue states should secede from USA
« Reply #15 on: September 15, 2020, 07:26:57 PM »
Each day, I get more and more sick thinking about what is happening to our country, and I see no real hope for the future.
 
Although things seem to be going straight down the old crapper I see hope.  Much of the extreme partisanship on the red side is from people 50+ years old.  Nature will take care of a lot of that in the next 20 years or less.  I believe the next generations are not stuck in how things were from an era that is often romanticized

I think the process of dissolving the country is too much and unnecessary.  We currently have a very poor choice for president, therefore thoughts like this are now entering the thoughts of many.  Reality remains even under a conservative president, the country continues to shift bluer.

Fathertime! 
I just happened to be browsing about the internet....

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Re: Red or Blue states should secede from USA
« Reply #16 on: September 15, 2020, 07:44:32 PM »

There was an exodus in the 80s and early 90s, mostly headed to Arizona when many of the defense aeronautic companies relocated. Then the decade of 90s and Y2k saw (Seattle) Washington / Texas began receiving a lot of these Californians. The influx to Nevada was always mild but constant.
I see large numbers leaving as long as California home values are so much greater than elsewhere. I suspect the prospect of suddenly having a million dollars in a bank account is a big incentive for many. 

Fathertime!
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Re: Red or Blue states should secede from USA
« Reply #17 on: September 16, 2020, 04:09:28 AM »
As a nation and democracy, we are far beyond our 'best use by' date.  In a way, this is good, but in another, it only postpones the inevitable collapse.

If we are to survive intact, there are a few fundamental aspects that must change, none of which are bound by the political divide.

First, we must admit that something is wrong with the way our democracy operates.  I believe most here can agree with this.

Second, there is a concept called 'spirit and intent of the law' to which we no longer abide.  Our lawmakers and we continuously seek loopholes in our laws or odd exceptions to escape 'spirit and intent.'  Not only does this exist in the application of domestic law but our obligations to other countries.  Domestically loopholes are built into statutes all the time intentionally, even nefariously, usually by what we generally call 'beltway bandits.'  These are the folks who write a good portion of laws on the books.  Faced with statutes containing thousands of pages, complex multi-layered external references, linguistic labyrinths, many of our elected officials and leaders can't even read them, much less check critical punctuation, grammatical word order, and complex references.  Many in politics and interest groups use this to 'game the system' and gain undue advantage or profits.  Such practices are rife in domestic legislation but are not limited to only what happens inside our borders. Our agreements with other countries and world organizations are similarly affected by 'gaming' and deviation from 'spirit and intent.'

Third, Congress, when performing its legislative duty, commonly bundles very diverse legislation into single laws. At first sight, one might think this is to add efficiency, but it is not.  It is a method of wielding leverage and trading 'this for that' leading to legislation that does not arrive out of real compromise on the proposed bill's merits.  Instead, the result is the piecemeal trading of unrelated bits of legislation on the House and Senate floors.  Legislation passed via this convoluted process is far from perfect when implemented.  Add the filibuster, which prevents proposed legislation from even getting to a vote, and the ideal political storm we have today intensifies.

Lastly, 'common sense' has been thrown out the window in favor of power, gain, advantage, or profit.

None of the above is unchangeable, but requires a will we do not possess today simply because we do not trust and fear one another.  We'll eventually get there, by either courage or violence.  Which will it be?
« Last Edit: September 16, 2020, 04:15:18 AM by BC »

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Re: Red or Blue states should secede from USA
« Reply #18 on: September 16, 2020, 07:15:46 AM »

We are a very long way from having another Civil War but I have to admit, I've never seen Democrats this mad since Lincoln freed their slaves.
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Re: Red or Blue states should secede from USA
« Reply #19 on: September 16, 2020, 07:46:58 AM »
We are a very long way from having another Civil War but I have to admit, I've never seen Democrats this mad since Lincoln freed their slaves.

I fear it may be much closer than you think

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Re: Red or Blue states should secede from USA
« Reply #20 on: September 16, 2020, 08:06:41 AM »
We are a very long way from having another Civil War but I have to admit, I've never seen Democrats this mad since Lincoln freed their slaves.

Southern Democrats, who supported slavery, many who later joined the Southern Republican party due to conservative views and opposed the Civil Rights Act of 1964 and Voting Rights Act of 1965.


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Red or Blue states should secede from USA
« Reply #21 on: September 16, 2020, 08:08:14 AM »
Billy, there need not be a war.  As I quoted from Wiki:

"However, the Court's decision recognized some possibility of the divisibility 'through revolution, or through consent of the States' "

A Convention of States could do it. They probably wouldn't but it's a legal
nonviolent means by which it could be done.

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Red or Blue states should secede from USA
« Reply #22 on: September 16, 2020, 08:22:08 AM »
Southern Democrats, who supported slavery, many who later joined the Southern Republican party due to conservative views and opposed the Civil Rights Act of 1964 and Voting Rights Act of 1965.

82 percent of Republicans in the Senate voted for the 1964 civil rights act.
84 percent of Republicans in the House. It was the Democrats Robert Byrd,
William Fulbright, and Sam Ervin joined together to launch a filibuster that
lasted for 57 days (Byrd was reelected to the Senate by democrats all the
way until his death on June 28, 2010)

Why would racists join the GOP? Answer, they wouldn't because they had
a home in the Democratic party.

Many more Democratic racists were still alive to join the Democrats and
Jimmy Carter in 1976. Let's look at the map and see who the racists voted
for. A 40 year old racist voter in 1964 would be 96 today. 


As you can see the racists went back to the party in which they always belonged.
You don't get to claim that racist Democrat voters from 1964 make up any
meaningful number of Republican members today, the past or in recent years.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2020, 08:52:25 AM by 2tallbill »
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Re: Red or Blue states should secede from USA
« Reply #23 on: September 16, 2020, 08:38:48 AM »
I see large numbers leaving as long as California home values are so much greater than elsewhere. I suspect the prospect of suddenly having a million dollars in a bank account is a big incentive for many. 

Fathertime!


Well, let's hope and pray this time around those who swear leaving the US for another country if THE Donald gets elected will actually do so so we can avert some silly notion of secession. Those snowflakes apparently weren't very serious in 2016.
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2. The 2018 Camp Fire and Woolsey California wildfires are forests burning because of global warming.
3. N95 mask will choke you dead after 30 min. of use.

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Re: Red or Blue states should secede from USA
« Reply #24 on: September 16, 2020, 08:47:51 AM »
I fear it may be much closer than you think


If we look at the series of events that took place before and after Lincoln was inaugurated, we are not close to being in a Civil War. After Lincoln was elected and before he was inaugurated, States took their militaries and seized federal armories. Politicians resigned in protest to Lincoln being elected. All we have now is radicals on the left and right that are willing to duke it out on the streets. Currently Democratic governors are working with Trump on a friendly level pertaining to the virus and fires. Most Americans are happy with life enough to stay at home. The majority may bitch about things but the majority isn't ready to kill anybody to make changes.

What we are dealing today is nothing compared to the events below

http://www.battlefields.org/learn/articles/day-civil-war


Southern Democrats, who supported slavery, many who later joined the Southern Republican party due to conservative views and opposed the Civil Rights Act of 1964 and Voting Rights Act of 1965.


Republicans are mostly responsible for freeing the slaves, giving women rights to vote, giving minorities civil rights and rights to vote. Here are the votes for those two Acts below. Democrats 3-1 over Republicans said no to them. Although both passed, it was because the Republicans came together to get it done. Ideology vote charts in links below tell the story. The Democrats offered freebies to women and minorities pretending they care only after they were given the right to vote.

http://www.govtrack.us/congress/votes/88-1964/s409

http://www.govtrack.us/congress/votes/88-1964/h128

http://www.govtrack.us/congress/votes/89-1965/s78

http://www.govtrack.us/congress/votes/89-1965/h87


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