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Author Topic: Red or Blue states should secede from USA  (Read 1468 times)

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Offline BC

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Re: Red or Blue states should secede from USA
« Reply #25 on: September 16, 2020, 08:54:48 AM »

You don't get to claim that racist Democrat voters from 1964 make up any
meaningful number of Republican members today, the past or in recent years.

Was that my assertion?  Or was I simply correcting nomenclature?

In a way though, your reply counters BillyB's assertion so quite ok.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2020, 08:56:41 AM by BC »

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Re: Red or Blue states should secede from USA
« Reply #26 on: September 16, 2020, 09:08:13 AM »
Was that my assertion?  Or was I simply correcting nomenclature?

In a way though, your reply counters BillyB's assertion so quite ok.

Let's review your quote
Southern Democrats, who supported slavery, many who later joined the Southern Republican party due to conservative views and opposed the Civil Rights Act of 1964 and Voting Rights Act of 1965.

BC, I don't want to misunderstand your intent or to get it wrong. Let me know
what you meant.

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Offline BC

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Re: Red or Blue states should secede from USA
« Reply #27 on: September 16, 2020, 09:49:11 AM »
BC, I don't want to misunderstand your intent or to get it wrong. Let me know
what you meant.

2tall,

I've never seen Democrats this mad since Lincoln freed their slaves.

I simply attempted to point out to BillyB that the 'Democrats' he believed would be pissed are not the Democrats of today, but instead Southern Democrats.

I pretty much did the same as your post that pointed out that Republicans today are not what they were back then either ;)

We can of course just say that most white folks in the south were in favor of slavery back then, no matter how they were politically labeled.

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Re: Red or Blue states should secede from USA
« Reply #28 on: September 16, 2020, 10:25:43 AM »
We can of course just say that most white folks in the south were in favor of slavery back then, no matter how they were politically labeled.


Every party has their racists but bottom line is it is the Republicans who fought harder for equal rights for women and minorities. The Democratic party was only interested in those people after they had the power to vote.
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Offline BC

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Re: Red or Blue states should secede from USA
« Reply #29 on: September 16, 2020, 11:22:30 AM »
BillyB,

suffice it to say I am not going to blame the Republicans of today for the Southern Strategy employed by folks back then who called themselves 'Republican'.  Neither am I going to blame Democrats today for efforts of folks back then that called themselves 'Democrats' back then to disenfranchise blacks and poor white voters.

A party whether you call it democrat or republican is formed by folks with similar political values.  The name or labels used today have no meaning or relation whatsoever with parties using the same name back then.

Maybe you could clarify the point you were trying to get across with your original post below:

We are a very long way from having another Civil War but I have to admit, I've never seen Democrats this mad since Lincoln freed their slaves.

Online Gator

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Re: Red or Blue states should secede from USA
« Reply #30 on: September 16, 2020, 11:38:07 AM »

We can of course just say that most white folks in the south were in favor of slavery back then, no matter how they were politically labeled.

Lets be careful how we label people.  The past is malleable to many.   

Did you know only a minority of white families in the South owned slaves?  Most whites were probably not in the category of "favoring slavery" but the category of "reluctantly accepting it as the life they knew in their very small world."

I recall doing genealogy  research of my Tennessee ancestors and discovered only one man from my huge family tree had fought in the Civil War, and he was a Yankee.  That was Tennessee near Kentucky border, and probably a different story than south Georgia. 

What was the subject?  Yes...Southern Democrats.  My family were Democrats for life, not because of slavery nor Lincoln nor reconstruction, but because of the New Deal.  Evidently it started before that because my grandfather gave one of his sons the first name of Woodrow and middle name of Wilson.

More important my parents stayed Democrat for their lives.   And they favored civil rights.  I imagine them probably voting for Obama in 2008 but not in 2012.

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Re: Red or Blue states should secede from USA
« Reply #31 on: September 16, 2020, 11:54:44 AM »
Yup.  There were parts of the South, I'm thinking North Carolina, where slaves were not allowed.   These counties actually voted not to secede or did so reluctantly.  Now, that doesn't put them on the side of the angels, but it does show that the South was far from unified behind slavery.   Instead they were unified behind the banner of State's Rights.
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Re: Red or Blue states should secede from USA
« Reply #32 on: September 16, 2020, 12:11:39 PM »
Yup.  There were parts of the South, I'm thinking North Carolina, where slaves were not allowed.   These counties actually voted not to secede or did so reluctantly.  Now, that doesn't put them on the side of the angels, but it does show that the South was far from unified behind slavery.   Instead they were unified behind the banner of State's Rights.

Slavery was legal in all of the Southern states. As far West as Texas and as far North as Maryland. Missouri was neutral and Kentucky called themselves quasi neutral but neither really were. I don't recall the numbers but I believe the number of slave owners was less than 1% of the South's population. The point is, it was very small. Most of the population couldn't afford slaves and for the most part were unaffected. Slave owners were mostly large land and plantation owners, wealthy men. Those wealthy men had for the most part all the influence in Washington as it concerned the South. Your average Southerner considered the civil war the "rich man's war". It was a very different world back then and politics was mostly a rich man's business

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Re: Red or Blue states should secede from USA
« Reply #33 on: September 16, 2020, 12:30:09 PM »
Yup.  There were parts of the South, I'm thinking North Carolina, where slaves were not allowed.   These counties actually voted not to secede or did so reluctantly.  Now, that doesn't put them on the side of the angels, but it does show that the South was far from unified behind slavery.   Instead they were unified behind the banner of State's Rights.

Agree, and States Rights are still an important concept in our constitution whether the left likes it or not.  Our government was established with the idea that most matters are legislated by individual states and represent the sentiment of the citizens in each state.  Doesn't the left pay any attention to history?
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Re: Red or Blue states should secede from USA
« Reply #34 on: September 16, 2020, 12:40:36 PM »
Yup.  There were parts of the South, I'm thinking North Carolina, where slaves were not allowed.   These counties actually voted not to secede or did so reluctantly.  Now, that doesn't put them on the side of the angels, but it does show that the South was far from unified behind slavery.   Instead they were unified behind the banner of State's Rights.

Western NC.  Small farms, but not plantations.   Pioneer spirit.  Religious, but not zealots  in the category of John Brown.  More about the right to keep the life they knew.   

You are correct that the issue of states rights  was important in soliciting wide public support.  However, "big money" was more important in making final decisions.  And plantations were the source of big money.  Think "king cotton," a luxury of the time.  Not far behind were tobacco, rice and sugar.   The paradox I can't solve is that a large part of the industrial wealth of New England depended upon cotton. 

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Re: Red or Blue states should secede from USA
« Reply #35 on: September 16, 2020, 01:09:58 PM »
We are a very long way from having another Civil War but I have to admit, I've never seen Democrats this mad since Lincoln freed their slaves.

Maybe you could clarify the point you were trying to get across with your original post below:


Nah, I'll keep leave it as is. Just a few words that says a lot.

Video below is as close to a Civil War we'll see now and after Trump gets re-elected. Far right and left groups pounding each other in the streets. At the 4 minute mark, one guy knocks out two people.

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Re: Red or Blue states should secede from USA
« Reply #36 on: September 16, 2020, 01:13:40 PM »
Lets be careful how we label people.  The past is malleable to many.   


That was what I was suggesting to BillyB, but admit 'most' may be a bit off, or not.  Might we agree on 'numerous' or 'very numerous' as in enough to result in a civil war?

Here's an interesting and quick video on the subject.






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Re: Red or Blue states should secede from USA
« Reply #37 on: September 16, 2020, 06:45:16 PM »

The Democratic party today and in the past seems to be the ones bringing down America or preventing progress. Democrats now have minorities dependent on them for financial aid and food stamps just as slaves were dependent on them for food and roof over their heads.

Democrats allow citizens to destroy their cities. Republicans won't allow that. Trump may be an asshole, but he's pro law and order.

America needed Trump. Many of our institutions, like the FBI started to become corrupt. Trump got rid of those who can't perform their job with integrity and replaced them with people who have integrity. Even recently Mueller's team full of Democrats erased dozens of their phones knowing an inspector general wants to review them so there's more work to do. If anybody Mueller was investigating even altered an email by removing a comma and not changing the meaning, they'd be charged with tampering with evidence. Hillary wasn't charged for making emails disappear so Mueller's team of attorneys thought they can get away with it too. Even with being bombarded with anti Trump news from the media, I think Americans see Democrats taking us in the wrong direction allowing corruption in government to grow and anarchists to rise. Americans will stay the course with Trump giving him 4 more years to get rid of bad apples and give us better government. Those who read fake news media and embrace phony polls will never understood why Trump won and they will be even more shocked when he wins again.
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Offline BC

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Re: Red or Blue states should secede from USA
« Reply #38 on: September 17, 2020, 03:14:09 AM »
Thanks for your list of conservative talking points Billy.  A bit outdated, but guess 'it is what it is'.  Which post were you responding to?

You do know there is an app for that?  http://www.conservativetalkingpoints.com/app/

Quote
Be armed with the Conservative Talking Points (CTP) iPhone App as your powerful arsenal to debate those emotional and ill-prepared liberals. This collection of sourced facts, historic data, direct quotes, and common sense knowledge is organized in a quick reference format for easy lookups during a spirited discussion or a heated argument. Since liberals quickly sink to personal attacks or jump to another subject, you can hold their feet to the fire of truth with these Conservative Talking Points to win on any subject they wish to debate you on.

Guess it's the AK-47 of conservative doublespeak, guaranteed to shut down liberals on the spot in even the most complex political debate topic.

Quote
Copy/paste is supported for easy posting.  With a few clicks, you can do the 'dem deflect' as well as Kellyanne Conway. Uses the same organization of McEnemy's podium cheat sheet for lightning-fast alt-fact references.  Will even assist with building that special Navarro conservatism continuum conundrum for amazing CNN interviews.  The 'Trump Tangential Tackle Talk Technique' (in short called TT's) is a paid add-in as well as the 'Nuke option' - a 98decibel audio recording of Trump screaming "You're Wrong!!".  For entertainment, an MTGA breast augmentation photo app for women with red MAGA pasties is included. For men, the MPGA photo app will proudly Trump up your 'donald' for impressive sexties. 30-day trial subscription to www.donalddaters.com included.

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Re: Red or Blue states should secede from USA
« Reply #39 on: September 17, 2020, 04:50:51 AM »




LMAO!

These antiphucks fall like diseased trees, man. Good lesson to learn, never bring your jabbering mouth to a fight.

These are the reasons why these idiots never protest in Huntington Beach anymore.
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Online BillyB

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Re: Red or Blue states should secede from USA
« Reply #40 on: September 17, 2020, 08:51:24 AM »
Thanks for your list of conservative talking points Billy.  A bit outdated, but guess 'it is what it is'.  Which post were you responding to?


No particular post. But you have mentioned you're worried about the deterioration of America. I think progressive leftist policies will be to blame if that happens. We shouldn't be fixing something that isn't broke.
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Online 2tallbill

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Re: Red or Blue states should secede from USA
« Reply #41 on: September 17, 2020, 03:54:28 PM »
2tall,

We can of course just say that most white folks in the south were in favor of slavery back then, no matter how they were politically labeled.

In 1860? or 1960?

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Re: Red or Blue states should secede from USA
« Reply #42 on: September 17, 2020, 06:23:29 PM »
Would Red come to the defense of Blue when Mexico invades California to regain lands stolen from it in the 19th C.
It is my understanding that Mexico merely stole it from Spain.
 
Were it ever to come to that, my state, California, would form The California Republic and invite the states of Washington, Oregon and possibly Arizona and Nevada to join. More and more Californians are leaving the state.   Preferential destinations:  Colorado, Arizona. Colorado has swung five points to the blue since this exodus began.   
Was it not the blue idealism that they were leaving?

Although things seem to be going straight down the old crapper I see hope.  Much of the extreme partisanship on the red side is from people 50+ years old.  Nature will take care of a lot of that in the next 20 years or less.
Nicely put there. Nature huh? Maybe a new virus? No more red huh? Adios old phu#ks!

 
Video below is as close to a Civil War we'll see now...
I thought the guy at the first fight would El Kabong yon opponent with his guitar. 
Secession -------?
 What about fathertime's and everybody else's Social Security?  :cluebat:
~There is no one more blind than those who refuse to see and none more deaf as those who will not listen~

Offline Lonestar

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Re: Red or Blue states should secede from USA
« Reply #43 on: October 17, 2020, 09:26:24 PM »
Kamala Harris family tree owned slaves in Carribean - black and white slaves.  People seem to forget that many White Irish were slaves. She is India / Carribean black ethnicity. 

I am one of the few people who moved to California this year for work.  Lived in Texas and Florida past 10 years.  That being said I was brought to California to help transition an S&P 500 company World HQ potentially to Florida or Texas if California / Biden or California / Trump get a little crazy on taxes. 

I will have to say I do like living in Los Angeles area.  Housing and state income taxes are high here but property taxes, Christian private schools for my kids, and organic food a lot cheaper here than Florida or Texas.  Housing prices seem to always go up as well do really not expensive if the price goes up.  Gas is more expensive but there is so much to do here you end up driving less and I like having a large SUV with everyone else driving small autos.  Lot easier to see on the road with few SUV's or pickup trucks on the road.  With my wife being Russian from Eastern Ukraine (she is US citizen now) she likes it here as well as many Russians. 


 

 

Offline ML

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Re: Red or Blue states should secede from USA
« Reply #44 on: October 17, 2020, 09:37:57 PM »
. . . property taxes, . . . a lot cheaper here than Florida or Texas. 
 

What ?

Property taxes were frozen or some such for existing homeowners in California way back when . . . but that doesn't apply to new buyers for many years now.

GQ . . . what do you say here ?
Winston Churchill.  “The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter.”

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Re: Red or Blue states should secede from USA
« Reply #45 on: October 18, 2020, 05:57:57 AM »
Yeah residential PT’s countywide baseline is still at 1%, ten bucks per thousand. Where this differs with each municipalities depends on community/home market value, salaries and social/civic services. There could be as much as almost 100% variance.

For example, not too long ago residents of Bell, a relatively affluent, high Hispanic population exposed abused by it’s city officials when it was revealed they gave themselves salaries that exceeded even those of the presidential salary, and gave themselves lavish expense accounts. Right now Bell, if not the highest is still right up there at the top.

The other interesting things is, counter to common impression, the lower valued communities, Compton, Inglewood, Van Nuys/Pacoima, etc actually pays much higher PT rate than the elite communities BH, Malibu, beach cities, etc.

Lonestar mentioned in another thread that he lives almost on the border of LA/Ventura proper. If in Westlake-Calabasas-Agoura, his PT would be in the 1.08+/- range. If in West Valley, Porter Ranch, Chatsworth, Indian Springs, Bell Canyon then he’s in the 1.4% +/- range.

I’m glad to hear that so far he likes living here. Tough to hate living in a place you just moved into. LA does have a lot to offer in terms of things to do and recreation. But one must remember too that this is a COVID year, so traffic volume, believe it or not, is only 50% of it’s normal volume. When they open up the city, especially schools, things will change very fast especially living from the areas mention above, and commute to midtown or westside for work.

Welcome Lonestar. Russian market in Encino called Rasputin. Restaurant across from it called EuroAsia is awesome. They serve Uzbek/Ukraine/Russian food.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2020, 07:03:05 AM by GQBlues »
Quote from: msmob
1. Because of 'man', global warming is causing desert and arid areas to suffer long, dry spell.
2. The 2018 Camp Fire and Woolsey California wildfires are forests burning because of global warming.
3. N95 mask will choke you dead after 30 min. of use.

Online Gator

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Re: Red or Blue states should secede from USA
« Reply #46 on: October 18, 2020, 06:58:10 AM »
Red states are indeed doing better.   Consider latest unemployment rates from Bureau of Labor Statistics :

South           6.9%
Northeast    10.9%
Midwest        8.0%
West             9.5%

Do you recall how the Georgia governor was chastised in the Spring for his partial lockdown policy and then reopening the Georgia economy early.  Even I thought it too lax   Georgia's unemployment rate is 5.6%.  In contrast New York's is 12.5%. 

And accumulative COVID deaths:

          New York    1,690 per mm

          Georgia         701 per mm


In summary, New York Sate policies produced a death rate 2.4x greater than Georgia, yet New York unemployment today is 2.2x greater.   

The Georgia governor knew more about how to manage this crisis.  However, it is New York Governor Cuomo profiting from his mismanagement by doing tours for his book " American Crisis: Leadership Lessons from the COVID-19 Pandemic."  :exploding:
 



Offline fathertime

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Re: Red or Blue states should secede from USA
« Reply #47 on: October 18, 2020, 07:11:29 AM »
 
 
 What about fathertime's and everybody else's Social Security?  :cluebat:
Yeah What about my social security!   

I'm not concerned about that now.   
Even in states that are heavily red, there is still plenty of blue...no states are leaving the union if biden takes the reins.  If trump were to continue his reign of terror there may be troubles according to the great political strategist kanye west.  Now that trump has lost all the kardashion/west vote, he may actually be dust! 

Diddy Warns Of ‘A Race War’ As He Launches New Political Party ‘To Get Trump Out Of Office
 

Sean “Diddy” Combs is expanding his political endeavors by launching his new Our Black Party in part to prevent Donald Trump‘s re-election. The mogul expressed urgency during his announcement Friday and warned in a tweet that America is “on the verge of a race war.”...


http://blackamericaweb.com/2020/10/16/diddy-warns-of-a-race-war-as-he-launches-new-political-party-to-get-trump-out-of-office/ 


Fathertime! 
I just happened to be browsing about the internet....

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Re: Red or Blue states should secede from USA
« Reply #48 on: October 18, 2020, 07:40:56 AM »
Mark my words, if we experience a blue sweep in November, Biden's initiatives on net will be sending Federal tax dollars collected from Georgia to benefit New York.   Yes, we are a nation of united states, and some disparity in tax spending is necessary.to rebuild from the pandemic, much like giving aid to  states hit by hurricanes.  However, the issue is more than the pandemic.

Blue states were being mismanaged for a long time before the pandemic, e. g., public employee pension plans.  The approach should be correcting mismanagement, not funding it.  The latter is a sure path of decline for the whole nation, and this is where the Democrats are headed.  Such is reflected today in their stimulus bill. 

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Re: Red or Blue states should secede from USA
« Reply #49 on: October 18, 2020, 01:08:31 PM »
Have to remember Gator that much of the middle class i.e. my parents, was built with unions and pension plans, not at-will employment.

 

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