Wealth

[Intrepid Traveler]

Actually, that’s not the question I asked.
But thanks for the factoids you’ve put out there..

I’ll repeat the question. What is wealth? Is it a high net worth? Is it sizeable assets other than cash? Is it high disposable income?
In two of these scenarios one could be considered wealthy but have no cash at hand.
In the 3rd scenarios one could be earning a high  salary but the fixed outgoings are equally high leaving you with little disposable income.
Or you could be a Trench. With some small assets, limited income but small outgoings.

Apologies if I did not answer your question properly. My quick read was that you were curious if wealth was net worth or income. Your quote above seems to indicate that there may be some nuances. The answers I provided provide some glimpses into American wealth in terms of net worth (assets) and income (pretax). With those two indicators plus the accredited investor definition, you should be able to come up with your own reasonable definition of what wealthy means to you. I say that sincerely because each of us will define wealthy differently.

There the joke about two guys going up an elevator. One guy asks a Goldman Sachs investment banker how he would feel if he woke up one day and saw that there was $10 million in his bank account. The banker replied that he would be shocked and terrified and wondering where the rest of his money disappeared to.

[Intrepid Traveler]

As a married man living in South America I think 80k would be enough money to live well, especially if the ranch is already paid for.  That said, I may want to have more money for certain extravagances and/or family emergencies, so I think 150k plus would be meet my own criteria.     If I were a single man, I would also want 150k or so, because with the ladies I may feel the need to lead a bit more with the wallet in older age! 

We agree. If a person or couple were to retire to Ecuador, the person or couple could live very comfortably on $80K per year. That probably applies to several other countries, too, in South America. You could easily afford your accommodation, dining out, and medical insurance.

If a person living in the states is young and industrious, he could buy a small business and continue to grow his wealth. I note that this board has some fairly entrepreneurial people. My understanding is that many small businesses sell for three to five times cash flow. Granted, he might not have a lot of free time because he is too busy. But he may find that his net worth has increased dramatically in several years.

[John Gaunt]

Apologies if I did not answer your question properly. My quick read was that you were curious if wealth was net worth or income. Your quote above seems to indicate that there may be some nuances. The answers I provided provide some glimpses into American wealth in terms of net worth (assets) and income (pretax). With those two indicators plus the accredited investor definition, you should be able to come up with your own reasonable definition of what wealthy means to you. I say that sincerely because each of us will define wealthy differently.

There the joke about two guys going up an elevator. One guy asks a Goldman Sachs investment banker how he would feel if he woke up one day and saw that there was $10 million in his bank account. The banker replied that he would be shocked and terrified and wondering where the rest of his money disappeared to.

I asked the question about wealth because Trench seems to think that being wealthy is a better indicator of success with women and it’s precisely because the notion of wealth is so subjective that I was canvassing opinion on what being wealthy means.
For me, to date internationally successfuly one needs more disposable income, whether it be generated from assets or earnings.
In that context, looking for an fsuw can be seen as a high risk investment with low earnings potential, so if you haven’t got cash in your pocket which you are prepared to risk then you shouldn’t be investing in this market.

[Trenchcoat]

I asked the question about wealth because Trench seems to think that being wealthy is a better indicator of success with women and it’s precisely because the notion of wealth is so subjective that I was canvassing opinion on what being wealthy means.
For me, to date internationally successfuly one needs more disposable income, whether it be generated from assets or earnings.
In that context, looking for an fsuw can be seen as a high risk investment with low earnings potential, so if you haven’t got cash in your pocket which you are prepared to risk then you shouldn’t be investing in this market.

I think for online dating one needs to come across well in dating photos to get a foot in the door. Some women are looking for a guy that while not necessarily having to show a lot of wealth in the photo is probably best looking at least reasonably wealthy. As the messaging conversation relayed a guy really needs to get to the point of knowing the girl pretty well before she gets hold of any idea as to his wealth. That or unless the guy doesn't mind the more materialistic girl dropping out.

I think what GQ says on really getting to know the girl is true but unless the guy gets his foot in the door and makes a lot of progress early triggering of issues on wealth/social status can mess that up, more so online before meeting. Girls have preconceived ideas of what they want and playing into them isn't a good idea. That said equally deceiving them is to be avoided too.


Beyond that I think a guy needs to at least satisfy a FSW as to the abode she will be living in. While accommodation is often cramped flats in the FSU in the UK they might be surprised that it's often only a bit better than that. I think a guy will need to put forward a decent enough looking place to live even if only renting. It may not stop a girl from going with a guy but it could be a bit of a downer if a bit of a dive somewhere with little plus points. That's my thoughts on it anyway.

[John Gaunt]

I think for online dating one needs to come across well in dating photos to get a foot in the door. Some women are looking for a guy that while not necessarily having to show a lot of wealth in the photo is probably best looking at least reasonably wealthy. As the messaging conversation relayed a guy really needs to get to the point of knowing the girl pretty well before she gets hold of any idea as to his wealth. That or unless the guy doesn't mind the more materialistic girl dropping out.

I think what GQ says on really getting to know the girl is true but unless the guy gets his foot in the door and makes a lot of progress early triggering of issues on wealth/social status can mess that up, more so online before meeting. Girls have preconceived ideas of what they want and playing into them isn't a good idea. That said equally deceiving them is to be avoided too.


Beyond that I think a guy needs to at least satisfy a FSW as to the abode she will be living in. While accommodation is often cramped flats in the FSU in the UK they might be surprised that it's often only a bit better than that. I think a guy will need to put forward a decent enough looking place to live even if only renting. It may not stop a girl from going with a guy but it could be a bit of a downer if a bit of a dive somewhere with little plus points. That's my thoughts on it anyway.

Trench, never mind all of the above.

It cost me north of £20k from 1st meeting my wife to her eventually moving to live with me.
Have you got a similar amount of cash at your disposable. If you haven’t all of the above waffle is just a waste of e-ink.
It takes money to pull this off. You don’t necessarily need to be wealthy but a sum of money is required and once commitments are made, sums of money are  an ongoing requirement, as any one married to an fsuw will tell you. Incidentally, these don’t include money for frivolous pursuits but for your fsuw needs, whether it be getting her language lessons, getting her qualifications verified, any ongoing educational needs, driving lessons, a car, or simply putting her on a plane to see mama if she gets homesick. It’s an endless list.
We know you would get your woman out to work in some dead end minimum wage job so she pays her own way for clothes/cosmetics etc.
You haven’t the money for it, that’s plain to see.

[BC]

It cost me north of £20k from 1st meeting my wife to her eventually moving to live with me.
Have you got a similar amount of cash at your disposable. If you haven’t all of the above waffle is just a waste of e-ink.

Where is that 'thumbs up' emoticon?  Similar experience here.

The very worst thing one could do is go into debt in this venture.  Recipe for disaster.

[Trenchcoat]

Trench, never mind all of the above.

It cost me north of £20k from 1st meeting my wife to her eventually moving to live with me.
Have you got a similar amount of cash at your disposable. If you haven’t all of the above waffle is just a waste of e-ink.
It takes money to pull this off. You don’t necessarily need to be wealthy but a sum of money is required and once commitments are made, sums of money are  an ongoing requirement, as any one married to an fsuw will tell you. Incidentally, these don’t include money for frivolous pursuits but for your fsuw needs, whether it be getting her language lessons, getting her qualifications verified, any ongoing educational needs, driving lessons, a car, or simply putting her on a plane to see mama if she gets homesick. It’s an endless list.
We know you would get your woman out to work in some dead end minimum wage job so she pays her own way for clothes/cosmetics etc.
You haven’t the money for it, that’s plain to see.

Nope she might meet another dude that way then I would have done all the hard work for him. No I would get her preggers first that way it's all sorted

Well why don't you give the forum a rough itemisation of your costs? Some stuff you can roll into one heading and give a rough estimate just to get an idea.

[John Gaunt]

Nope she might meet another dude that way then I would have done all the hard work for him. No I would get her preggers first that way it's all sorted

You’re an insecure fool, Trench.
If she wants to meet someone else, she will.
If she wants to leave you, she will.
Having a child won’t be a barrier to you being dumped.

Well why don't you give the forum a rough itemisation of your costs? Some stuff you can roll into one heading and give a rough estimate just to get an idea.

Well, it’s been a few years.
The initial costs were for travel for myself.
I was travelling every other weekend so flight and accommodation + spending money.
Then there were visa costs to visit me in the UK.
Visa costs to have some city breaks in Schengen plus travel/accommodation/expenses
While all this is going on there are expenditures for sundry things for her you might want to consider.
Once our relationship was solidified I started supporting her a bit.
Then costs for en engagement ring.
Costs in getting paperwork together for getting married.
Wedding costs, dress, restaurant, nice hotel for our wedding night.
Honeymoon costs.
Then visa application costs, language tests etc.
Getting the house sorted in preparation for her arrival, painting and decorating . New furniture.

After arrival:
Getting her settled sundry costs
Driving lessons and test
Getting a car for her
Second wave of visa costs, more language tests followed by naturalization and passport costs.

Now those visa costs are even more so you’ll need bigger pockets.

These are just some of the costs.
If you don’t want to spend money, don’t marry an fsuw.

[Trenchcoat]

You’re an insecure fool, Trench.
If she wants to meet someone else, she will.
If she wants to leave you, she will.
Having a child won’t be a barrier to you being dumped.Well, it’s been a few years.
The initial costs were for travel for myself.
I was travelling every other weekend so flight and accommodation + spending money.
Then there were visa costs to visit me in the UK.
Visa costs to have some city breaks in Schengen plus travel/accommodation/expenses
While all this is going on there are expenditures for sundry things for her you might want to consider.
Once our relationship was solidified I started supporting her a bit.
Then costs for en engagement ring.
Costs in getting paperwork together for getting married.
Wedding costs, dress, restaurant, nice hotel for our wedding night.
Honeymoon costs.
Then visa application costs, language tests etc.
Getting the house sorted in preparation for her arrival, painting and decorating . New furniture.

After arrival:
Getting her settled sundry costs
Driving lessons and test
Getting a car for her
Second wave of visa costs, more language tests followed by naturalization and passport costs.

Now those visa costs are even more so you’ll need bigger pockets.

These are just some of the costs.
If you don’t want to spend money, don’t marry an fsuw.

Ah, having explained it like that Gaunty I can see plenty of places to cut off the excess fat

Trips back and forth probably cost more back when you did it but we now have budget flights to Ukraine (at least as it were). I think the accomodation I would probably do better on getting cheaper but still looking good as well. The visitations could be stretched out to three or four weeks to make it more cost efficient.

Holidays as I found out are best to cheaper places like Turkey and no need to overdo with a lot of holidays.

I think a lot of the the other stuff you can knock off, if you drive then she doesn't need to. She only really needs to put out in arrival no need to go all stupid redecorating the house or anything

So I can see where you spent way more than you need off, remember you're raising her up from the sh*thole in which they inhabit JG even a basic lifestyle in the UK beats that

[BC]

What's your budget Trench?

[Trenchcoat]

What's your budget Trench?

The minimum possible, lol.

No seriously £20k is a big waste of money when it can be done for much less. If the girl is into you at all then all the extra's Gaunty paid aren't needed.

A wedding can be done fairly cheap and still look good if one wants to. The all that is needed is the visa costs adnd her to have enough language ability to pass the basic test. I kind of get the impression Gaunty was using his wealth to hook her here

[Boethius]

Trench, my wedding was in the USSR, and I didn't pay a cent for it.  But even I paid over $20,000 in expenses, and that was over three decades ago! 

FSUW who are willing to marry a foreigner do so with the expectation that their lifestyles will improve.  Significantly.  Why would a woman leave Ukraine to live an impecunious lifestyle in the UK with a man who, based on posts here, will be a control freak?  It just won't happen.  You seem to believe that getting a woman to the UK and knocking her up will assure a relationship.  But based on what you state your income is, you can't afford a child.  Moreover, children add stress to a relationship.  If that is coupled with money problems, the chance of your marriage succeeding is minimal.  I don't think you are equipped to deal with a Ukrainian woman's fury.

[Trenchcoat]

Trench, my wedding was in the USSR, and I didn't pay a cent for it.  But even I paid over $20,000 in expenses, and that was over three decades ago! 

FSUW who are willing to marry a foreigner do so with the expectation that their lifestyles will improve.  Significantly.  Why would a woman leave Ukraine to live an impecunious lifestyle in the UK with a man who, based on posts here, will be a control freak?  It just won't happen.  You seem to believe that getting a woman to the UK and knocking her up will assure a relationship.  But based on what you state your income is, you can't afford a child.  Moreover, children add stress to a relationship.  If that is coupled with money problems, the chance of your marriage succeeding is minimal.  I don't think you are equipped to deal with a Ukrainian woman's fury.

LOL, I don't think I probably am.

I think I could do it in terms of the process but yes I think you are right that FSW expect their life to improve significantly rather than a one or two small step change, which is like you say why many are willing to leave their families. Some of it may depend on circumstance, i.e, if she gets on with her family or has much if a family, that and how well she gets on with the WM. Many variables no doubt come into play the point I was making is that if the girl is really into a guy then it's less of an wealth outlay issue. In the UK it's not a long flight to Ukraine, just three hours, the cost can be pretty cheap and there are video calling on top of that so it's not as big a break in that regard for the girl & her family unless she is heavily attached to them of course.

[GenMish]

Advice to Trench

DONT HAVE AN OPEN BAR AT YOUR WEDDING

When I married my Russian wife, I wanted to keep it small because she didnt know all my friends and colleagues. So I picked a high end venue. Our wedding was held in a 5 star hotel with only 40 in attendance, 4 of whom were from her family. I went all out on everything.  Also I figure, my close friends and family are not big drinkers, how many times will a person get married? So I had an open bar.

DANG! I was off what I anticipated by 100%

It was my family and friends that ran up the bill, not hers. Well her Dad helped, but it wasnt his fault. My best man challenged my FIL to toasting contest.

Advice to anyone going to a party in Russia
You have to accept the Vodka poured in your glass, but they will let non Russians pour it out and toast with water. When in Russia, my wife would pour out the Vodka and fill my shot glass with water

[Boethius]

I have never been to a Ukrainian wedding that did not have an open bar (and I mean where I live, not in Ukraine).  It would be considered the height of cheapness to charge guests for liquor, or restrict their access.  Relatively few people get drunk.

[ML]

First wife and I were dirt poor (and much too young) when we married.

Drink consisted of punch bowl with no 'punch.'

There were quite a few people there as we both came from large extended families.

My UW is amazed that I have (or had before several passed on) something like 50 cousins, whereas she has only two.

[Intrepid Traveler]

I asked the question about wealth because Trench seems to think that being wealthy is a better indicator of success with women and it’s precisely because the notion of wealth is so subjective that I was canvassing opinion on what being wealthy means.
For me, to date internationally successfuly one needs more disposable income, whether it be generated from assets or earnings.
In that context, looking for an fsuw can be seen as a high risk investment with low earnings potential, so if you haven’t got cash in your pocket which you are prepared to risk then you shouldn’t be investing in this market.

We agree. You should be adequately prepared to support your spouse when she arrives. And I expect that there will be lots of surprises. Thanks for your answer.

[GenMish]

I have never been to a Ukrainian wedding that did not have an open bar (and I mean where I live, not in Ukraine).  It would be considered the height of cheapness to charge guests for liquor, or restrict their access.  Relatively few people get drunk.

Im so sorry Boe that you grew up in a disenfranchised country. Here in the USA, 5 star hotel weddings have  drinks that are $30 each if you have an open bar. When I married in Russia Stoli was $1 FULL bottle on the street. But at an open bar at a 5 star hotel in the USA a shot was $6
60x times your 3rd world prices

So yeah, 3rd world prices are lower

Just trying to advise people to avoid high bar bills for drunken Eastern Europeans
Do open bar the first hour, then Beer Wine House Champagne afterwards

[Boethius]

I grew up in Canada. Our liquor costs significantly more than in the US, because of taxes. A bottle of wine that’s $12 in Florida costs $30-35 here. A beer is about $7.50. Cannot tell you a six pack, as I don’t drink beer.

[John Gaunt]

Im so sorry Boe that you grew up in a disenfranchised country. Here in the USA, 5 star hotel weddings have  drinks that are $30 each if you have an open bar. When I married in Russia Stoli was $1 FULL bottle on the street. But at an open bar at a 5 star hotel in the USA a shot was $6
60x times your 3rd world prices

So yeah, 3rd world prices are lower

Just trying to advise people to avoid high bar bills for drunken Eastern Europeans
Do open bar the first hour, then Beer Wine House Champagne afterwards

Not really.

In many developing countries alcohol is classed a luxury item and heavily taxed, especially on imported alcohol. So after adding on import duties and sin taxes a shot of anything can work out pretty pricey.

[Trenchcoat]

I grew up in Canada. Our liquor costs significantly more than in the US, because of taxes. A bottle of wine that’s $12 in Florida costs $30-35 here. A beer is about $7.50. Cannot tell you a six pack, as I don’t drink beer.

Boe doesn't want us to know she drinks beer with her female lawyer friends and sit around belching all day long

[Trenchcoat]

Anyway, away from the price if beer and back to topic. I would say the interesting thing about wealth is that usually the man's aim is supposed to work for it/obtain it/have it.  It's not usually seen as a thing women must do to attract men. A few women might attract men with it but they are probably the exception rather than the rule. I myself don't care on the wealth of a woman it doesn't come as a factor for me in a woman's appeal, my guess is many men are similar in that one to me. Looks are quite a draw for me and many men but I think for me good eye contact trumps that in reality when on the presence of a woman, flirting eyeing. Not that I would go for a fat and/or ugly girl on that basis but she could be quite everyday looking and appeal.

Anyhow, apart from the few guys that are given wealth from their wealthy family from an early age I think us guys definitely have the harder part of the deal. I think even in the west where it's 'supposed' to be quite equal many western women still expect the guy to be all set up and provide everything, house & home, pay for most outgoings etc. It may not end up that way in reality but often that seems to be the mindset western women approach it with, FSW moreso I think.

[Intrepid Traveler]

Anyhow, apart from the few guys that are given wealth from their wealthy family from an early age I think us guys definitely have the harder part of the deal. I think even in the west where it's 'supposed' to be quite equal many western women still expect the guy to be all set up and provide everything, house & home, pay for most outgoings etc. It may not end up that way in reality but often that seems to be the mindset western women approach it with, FSW moreso I think.

Why even worry about who has a more difficult hand to play? Rather then worrying about your perceived disadvantages, just focus on playing the hand your dealt. Heck, as a guy, you should be driving the bus. You decide who you want to approach. Because you were born in a Western country, you have already won the lottery. Many people can only wish to have had your opportunities. Instead, they've had to fight extremely hard for every opportunity. They wish they had your freedoms and choices. Many of us in the West have no appreciation how lucky we have got it.

Have a real conversation with a woman from Russia or Ukraine. Forget about dating for a moment. After you talk to your friend about her life and challenges, you will have a deeper appreciation of her and her situation.

I would never for a moment complain that a FSW has more advantages than I do. Being a woman in an FSU country is not always easy because it is more of a patriarchal society than ours is. Despite her education and hard work, she earns only a fraction of her counterpart in a Western country. Because her earnings are much less, she cannot afford the things you and I can. While money many not buy happiness, struggling harms your soul.

Be thankful for all your blessings. So many people would change positions with you in a heartbeat. Then they would make plans to improve with the resources that are available to them.

One thing that a Russian or Ukrainian woman will not tolerate is whining. Step into her shoes for a while if you want something to whine about.

Life is short, Trench. Our job is to make the most of it while we are alive.

[Trenchcoat]

Why even worry about who has a more difficult hand to play? Rather then worrying about your perceived disadvantages, just focus on playing the hand your dealt. Heck, as a guy, you should be driving the bus. You decide who you want to approach. Because you were born in a Western country, you have already won the lottery. Many people can only wish to have had your opportunities. Instead, they've had to fight extremely hard for every opportunity. They wish they had your freedoms and choices. Many of us in the West have no appreciation how lucky we have got it.

Have a real conversation with a woman from Russia or Ukraine. Forget about dating for a moment. After you talk to your friend about her life and challenges, you will have a deeper appreciation of her and her situation.

I would never for a moment complain that a FSW has more advantages than I do. Being a woman in an FSU country is not always easy because it is more of a patriarchal society than ours is. Despite her education and hard work, she earns only a fraction of her counterpart in a Western country. Because her earnings are much less, she cannot afford the things you and I can. While money many not buy happiness, struggling harms your soul.

Be thankful for all your blessings. So many people would change positions with you in a heartbeat. Then they would make plans to improve with the resources that are available to them.

One thing that a Russian or Ukrainian woman will not tolerate is whining. Step into her shoes for a while if you want something to whine about.

Life is short, Trench. Our job is to make the most of it while we are alive.

I'm impressed IT, you have learnt a lot in a short time. I've heard life can be difficult for FSW/Ukrainian women, how they are paid less and living conditions, little money for heating if any, building maintenance problems, and difficulty living in small cramped apartments that may have issues with bathing, washing, etc. Then of course there are social problems on top in the family, at work, if they have a job, with friends and people they know possibly even debt collector problems, corrupt officials & persons, etc. Men of course out there can have it bad also. I've never heard a first hand account a FSW have given me of specifics but an outline and of course talk on here.

I was just really responding to the theoretical issues of the thread. While we may not have the same daily struggles many FSW face it's not necessarily problem free in our society. I probably have life better than many in the UK in terms of wealth and opportunity, but even then it's not a straightforward task moving forward. I think sometimes FSW and people outside the Western world idealise life in the UK and the West. Very rarely do people in the west go from rags to riches overnight, most of the time it takes a lifetime or more and good & wise choices along the way. I think sometimes FSW don't take into account life in the west is not a free paradise of plenty. Everything has to be paid for, rent/mortgage or saving up for a house, electricity, gas, water, sewage, council tax, then on wages income tax, national insurance, then when buying stuff VAT tax on stuff bought. Travel to & from work to pay for, Tavel to visit stuff, entertainment to pay for, TV license fee, TV subscriptions & landline phone, mobile phone, car road tax, car MOT, car breakdown issues, car breakdown services subscription, car insurance, car consumables, food, etc, etc.

I dare say life in many parts of Ukraine is not good but I think many UW underestimate the amount of stuff a WM has to pay for. Then there is money spent on their UW, etc cost to bring her over here, etc. Some UW can be demanding in buy me this, that, etc not realising you're not a bottomless pit of money.

[Intrepid Traveler]

I'm impressed IT, you have learnt a lot in a short time. I've heard life can be difficult for FSW/Ukrainian women, how they are paid less and living conditions, little money for heating if any, building maintenance problems, and difficulty living in small cramped apartments that may have issues with bathing, washing, etc. Then of course there are social problems on top in the family, at work, if they have a job, with friends and people they know possibly even debt collector problems, corrupt officials & persons, etc. Men of course out there can have it bad also. I've never heard a first hand account a FSW have given me of specifics but an outline and of course talk on here.

I have not expressed anything in my prior post that I didn't already know before I joined this forum. I have Russian friends, so I have a glimpse into their lives. And it is only a glimpse.

I was just really responding to the theoretical issues of the thread. While we may not have the same daily struggles many FSW face it's not necessarily problem free in our society. I probably have life better than many in the UK in terms of wealth and opportunity, but even then it's not a straightforward task moving forward. I think sometimes FSW and people outside the Western world idealise life in the UK and the West. Very rarely do people in the west go from rags to riches overnight, most of the time it takes a lifetime or more and good & wise choices along the way. I think sometimes FSW don't take into account life in the west is not a free paradise of plenty. Everything has to be paid for, rent/mortgage or saving up for a house, electricity, gas, water, sewage, council tax, then on wages income tax, national insurance, then when buying stuff VAT tax on stuff bought. Travel to & from work to pay for, Tavel to visit stuff, entertainment to pay for, TV license fee, TV subscriptions & landline phone, mobile phone, car road tax, car MOT, car breakdown issues, car breakdown services subscription, car insurance, car consumables, food, etc, etc.

The reality is that life is never problem free. Bill Gates is going through a divorce. Jeff Bezos is divorced. Steve Jobs died far too early from cancer. Divorces, illnesses, and diseases are never fun. So no matter who you are, you are going to have some problems in life.

Even those on this board have their challenges. But they know challenges are part of life. As long as you are alive and making progress, consider yourself lucky.

I never discuss my challenges with my Russian friends because they'd love to have my problems in place of their own. Their lives are not miserable by any stretch. But had they been born in the West with their talents, they would be a lot further ahead. I have great respect for their stoicism.

Regarding rags-to-riches overnight, it depends on what you do. If you are an entrepreneur, you may oscillate with your industry and general economy. If you work 9-to-5 as a bureaucrat, then you'll likely never be rich but will be comfortable. Most people are somewhere in between.

If you find a quality bride, she will be amazingly astute about managing money. She has managed to make her money stretch further than you and I could ever hope. Don't shortchange (see what I did there?) them by making assumptions about their outlook once they arrive. That said, you must have the means to support both of you.

I dare say life in many parts of Ukraine is not good but I think many UW underestimate the amount of stuff a WM has to pay for. Then there is money spent on their UW, etc cost to bring her over here, etc. Some UW can be demanding in buy me this, that, etc not realising you're not a bottomless pit of money.

You should take this as a challenge. There are Russian emigres everywhere. Talk to them about their expenses and how difficult it was to relocate. Create a budget. Can you afford the costs associated with bringing a bride over? Many of the guys here in this forum have itemized some of their costs. So that should give you a good start on your budget. Once you have a budget that is reasonable, be sure to share your budget and expectations with your prospective bride. That will provide her with an expected lifestyle.

Most guys here, I suspect, have sufficient means that they knew they could adequately provide for their bride and children. So they did not go through a detailed analyses with their bride. They also had confidence that their brides would be reasonable.

Rather than theorizing and discussing how difficult life is, try breaking things down into small, bite-sized steps. When your picture is clear and you are happy, then you can proceed with confidence.