Afghanistan

[2tallbill]

sure ,sure  your use of abandoned is a grand and partisan attempt to paint this situation inaccurately.   

Are US Civilians trapped? YES

Can they leave? NO

Do they risk death? YES

Are people being killed? YES

Are both Houses of Congress ran by Democrats? YES

Are both Houses of Congress going to run investigations into Biden
about Afghanistan? YES



Stop being dishonest. Biden is getting killed by his own party for this
I have posted the stories and links.

[2tallbill]

Quotes from Democrats, more stories and links

“I agree that this administration should have been working a lot earlier to evacuate a
lot of the people who are desperate to flee now,” said
Democrat U.S. Rep. Joaquin Castro of San Antonio, who sits on the U.S.
House Foreign Affairs Committee. “That’s a point that I think almost everybody
agrees with, that these preparations, these evacuations should have started
more urgently and earlier.”

Democrat U.S. Rep. Marc Veasey, who sits on the U.S. House Armed Services
Committee, called the situation “tragic.”

“I support the decision to bring our troops home after 20 long years, but I also believe
we must answer the tough questions about why we were not better prepared to respond
to the unfolding crisis,” the Fort Worth Democrat said in a statement.


Democrat U.S. Rep. Vicente Gonzalez of McAllen, who sits on the U.S. House Foreign
Affairs Committee. Not long after a Sunday conference call briefing with House members
and senior State Department and Pentagon officials, Gonzalez tweeted, "There’s no way
to hide it. The situation in Afghanistan is another shame on this admin.”

Source Texas Tribune



FROM NPR, they have different democrats criticizing Biden, then those mentioned above.

There's A Bipartisan Backlash To How Biden Handled The Withdrawal From Afghanistan
http://www.npr.org/2021/08/16/1028081817/congressional-reaction-to-bidens-afghanistan-withdrawal-has-been-scathing


Biden Finally Unifies Congress—Against His Afghanistan Withdrawal Debacle
In a rare display of bipartisanship, angry lawmakers of both parties are pushing
the president to do more to aid Afghan refugees.

Critics, both Democratic and Republican, have largely focused their attention on
the execution of the withdrawal, not its merits. The scene at the Kabul airport is
dire, with desperate Afghans clinging to planes as they take off—a situation that
has resulted in devastating loss of life.

Translators and other personnel who aided the American military are now in mortal
danger, and the claims by Biden himself that some special immigrant visa applicants
wished to stay in Afghanistan have been vigorously challenged by advocates for
refugees.

Many lawmakers have set up phone or email lines specifically to handle requests
for constituents seeking to get help for someone in Afghanistan.

http://newrepublic.com/article/163310/democrats-midterm-elections-afghanistan-withdrawal



 (CNN)Congressional Democrats are preparing a series of hearings on the US withdrawal
from Afghanistan amid rising anger about the Biden administration's handling of the end
of the war, with the Taliban rapidly taking control and the US chaotically scrambling to
evacuate Americans and vulnerable Afghan allies.
House Speaker Nancy Pelosi said there would be a hearing in the Foreign Affairs
Committee early next week,

http://www.cnn.com/2021/08/18/politics/democratic-response-afghanistan-withdrawal/index.html

[2tallbill]

CNN: Democrats grapple with Afghanistan fallout after Biden administration
ignored their previous warnings

Democrats are now in the midst of a political firestorm and struggling to find
a way to both back President Joe Biden on an exit from Afghanistan many
thought was long overdue, while acknowledging the administration made
major tactical mistakes that could have been avoided.
http://www.cnn.com/2021/08/16/politics/democratic-reaction-biden-afghanistan/index.html

[fathertime]

CNN: Democrats grapple with Afghanistan fallout after Biden administration
ignored their previous warnings

Democrats are now in the midst 

I've stated that I'm not a democrat, yet you dishonestly like to say that I am.   One thing is for certain, I'm not supportive of many republican policies. 

Quotes from Democrats, more stories and links

“I agree that this administration should have been working a lot earlier to evacuate a
lot of the people who are desperate to flee now,” said
Democrat U.S. Rep. Joaquin Castro of San Antonio, who sits on the U.S.
House Foreign Affairs Committee. “That’s a point that I think almost everybody
agrees with, that these preparations, these evacuations should have started
more urgently and earlier.”

Democrat U.S. Rep. Marc Veasey, who sits on the U.S. House Armed Services
Committee, called the situation “tragic.”

“I support the decision to bring our troops home after 20 long years, but I also believe
we must answer the tough questions about why we were not better prepared to respond
to the unfolding crisis,” the Fort Worth Democrat said in a statement.


Democrat U.S. Rep. Vicente Gonzalez of McAllen, who sits on the U.S. House Foreign
Affairs Committee. Not long after a Sunday conference call briefing with House members
and senior State Department and Pentagon officials, Gonzalez tweeted, "There’s no way
to hide it. The situation in Afghanistan is another shame on this admin.”

Source Texas Tribune



FROM NPR, they have different democrats criticizing Biden, then those mentioned above.

There's A Bipartisan Backlash To How Biden Handled The Withdrawal From Afghanistan
http://www.npr.org/2021/08/16/1028081817/congressional-reaction-to-bidens-afghanistan-withdrawal-has-been-scathing


Biden Finally Unifies Congress—Against His Afghanistan Withdrawal Debacle
In a rare display of bipartisanship, angry lawmakers of both parties are pushing
the president to do more to aid Afghan refugees.

Critics, both Democratic and Republican, have largely focused their attention on
the execution of the withdrawal, not its merits. The scene at the Kabul airport is
dire, with desperate Afghans clinging to planes as they take off—a situation that
has resulted in devastating loss of life.

Translators and other personnel who aided the American military are now in mortal
danger, and the claims by Biden himself that some special immigrant visa applicants
wished to stay in Afghanistan have been vigorously challenged by advocates for
refugees.

Many lawmakers have set up phone or email lines specifically to handle requests
for constituents seeking to get help for someone in Afghanistan.

http://newrepublic.com/article/163310/democrats-midterm-elections-afghanistan-withdrawal



 (CNN)Congressional Democrats are preparing a series of hearings on the US withdrawal
from Afghanistan amid rising anger about the Biden administration's handling of the end
of the war, with the Taliban rapidly taking control and the US chaotically scrambling to
evacuate Americans and vulnerable Afghan allies.
House Speaker Nancy Pelosi said there would be a hearing in the Foreign Affairs
Committee early next week,

http://www.cnn.com/2021/08/18/politics/democratic-response-afghanistan-withdrawal/index.html

There are 330 million people in the USA, so I expect about that many opinions.   Five links or 10 links doesn't mean squat in the scheme of things.   Suddenly you are a fan of CNN or Pelosi it looks like.   I'm going to support Biden on this decision, and accept the fact that it wasn't destined to go smoothly.   I think he is explaining things just fine.  So I'll break with some of your Democrat friends on this one. 

Fathertime!

[GQBlues]

CNN: Democrats grapple with Afghanistan fallout after Biden administration
ignored their previous warnings

Democrats are now in the midst of a political firestorm and struggling to find
a way to both back President Joe Biden on an exit from Afghanistan many
thought was long overdue, while acknowledging the administration made
major tactical mistakes that could have been avoided.
http://www.cnn.com/2021/08/16/politics/democratic-reaction-biden-afghanistan/index.html

Mid-term is knocking on everyone's door.

[2tallbill]

I've stated that I'm not a democrat, yet you dishonestly like to say that I am.   
One thing is for certain, I'm not supportive of many republican policies. 

Most Democrats aren't supportive of many GOP policies, especially when they
don't understand them. However, I won't call you a Democrat if you don't want
to be called one.

Suddenly you are a fan of CNN or Pelosi it looks like.   I'm going to support Biden on this decision, and accept the fact that it wasn't destined to go smoothly.   I think he is explaining things just fine.  So I'll break with some of your Democrat friends on this one. 

Fathertime!

I said that Biden screwed this up  What you said is that "is just a grand and partisan
attempt to paint this situation inaccurately." You said "Mostly political theater, somewhat
entertaining reading the partisan silliness."     

So I showed you Liberal news sources and Liberal politicians criticizing the same thing
that I was criticizing and I provided sources and links. Now you are moving the goalposts
and twisting things yet again.

I also showed News links that the Democrats in both the House and Senate are going to
investigate this administrations failure.

[GQBlues]

...I'm going to support Biden on this decision, and accept the fact that it wasn't destined to go smoothly.   I think he is explaining things just fine...

Certainly no doubt for me. Biden owned up on this one despite the fact his really only option was to void the peace deal and have us stay there for gawd knows how much longer.


One of the condition of Trump's peace deal was that the Taliban and the Afghan Government was to come to an agreement for power sharing and prisoner swap. They had 14 months to do so. They never came to any deal regarding the power sharing. Even the prisoner swap was almost never reached until the 11th hour.


The US should've included the Afghan government at the Doha on February 29,2020 despite the Talibans insistence they didn't want them there as they felt Ghani's administration was just a US puppet government. I still support the Trump administration for getting the deal done in spite of it, as the deal was conditioned there will be an ensuing meeting with Ghani's government. May 1st marks that 14th month. By this time, and according to the withdrawal plan, there were only 2,500 US soldier remained there. 2,500 in the entire country.


As it was, skirmishes started at the fringes of Afghanistan, and some government troops did in fact fought the Talibans. US military paid close attention to those fights. Almost 2,000 Afghan police force died, 6,000 surrendered, untold number injured and began defecting. At times the police force held the Taliban at bay, but slowly began to fall apart. Still the estimate was it'll take months, maybe even till the end of the year before a full takeover, at worst, happens. Hell, even contractors were never notified to evacuate when the military was suppose to send out an alarm if things began to unravel. No one expected the takeover would be as fast as it was.


The bucks stops with POTUS. Despite the unfortunate event, dude had cojones enough to own up to it. Biden may be scorned today, but proud of the dude for not putting us deeper and longer stuck in this wasteland.


Companies and cronies are majorly po'd with him because of the additional billion$ they now face to lose for bilking our nation because Biden didn't extend our stay.


Hooray!!!!

[Trenchcoat]

Apparently British soldiers are now on joint patrol with the Taliban lol:

http://www.google.com/amp/s/www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2021/08/20/crazy-herediary-british-soldier-afghanistan/amp/

[2tallbill]

Certainly no doubt for me. Biden owned up on this one despite the fact his really only option was to void the peace deal and have us stay there for gawd knows how much longer.

You are doing the BC either/or fallacy. It's not either/or

Either we stay in Afghanistan forever OR we leave 15,000 American citizens
trapped behind with the Taliban.

Only a complete idiot would choose to send the troops back before the civilians.
So you think that meant that we had to keep the troops there?!? NO, Biden
could told the civilians that they had to be out by June First or risk getting left
behind. He could have said two weeks later to get your civilian @ss to the airport
before July first or the Taliban will cut off your head and put it on a stick so we can
all watch on Youtube.

Biden is an idiot for NOT doing that. The fact that he is trying to get the troops
home is irrelevant to that point. The fact that a lot of company's got rich off of the
war is irrelevant to the point that some social workers are stuck in Pig-f#cky
Afghanistan and might never get back.

It's not either/or. It's incompetence and ineptitude on execution and he doesn't get
a pass for that. There were less than 2500 Americans killed in 20 years in Afghanistan.
Biden might have just doubled that.

 

[tfcrew]

I've stated that I'm not a democrat, yet you dishonestly like to say that I am. 

I fail to see where anyone has actually said that you are a Democrat. However, it is quite clear that you did not vote for Donald Trump. It is further obvious that you support Joe Biden and the Democrat policies so why not call a spade a spade and come out of the closet on that left side of life?

[Trenchcoat]

I personally think Biden made the wrong call and he should be blamed for it. While I agree that long term the way the Afghan government fell apart made it never look like it could stand alone Biden should have played harder in negotiations and if necessary held on even if it risked entering another war and more lives lost until a deal was reached. I think Trump on that score would have succeeded in that. Biden has backed down to Russia on its Nordstream pipeline after the recent army mobilization near Ukraine and now backed down in Afghanistan so to me is looking weak.

[tfcrew]

[fathertime]

I fail to see where anyone has actually said that you are a Democrat. 

it was deleted along with some other stuff. 

t. However, it is quite clear that you did not vote for Donald Trump. It is further obvious that you support Joe Biden and the Democrat policies so why not call a spade a spade and come out of the closet on that left side of life?

I'm not supportive of the right wing on many things.  There are certain topics where I lean more right.  I only support biden where I feels he warrants support.  I don't support his recent sanctions on the Nordstream 2, and probably more coming down the pipeline. 

Fathertime! 

[fathertime]

Biden has backed down to Russia on its Nordstream pipeline after the recent army mobilization near Ukraine and now backed down in Afghanistan so to me is looking weak.

What was biden supposed to do about the Nord steam pipeline?  Why is it the US's call to decide how Russia and Germany do business like that?   Biden threw out some sanctions yesterday.  I'm curious why biden is hurling sanctions out there at all.  What purpose does it serve at this point?  The pipeline is inevitable,  sticking out snout in how other nations do business like this can't be appreciated.   Fruitless. 

U.S. imposes Nord Stream 2 sanctions; opponents say they won't halt project

-The Biden administration on Friday slapped sanctions on a Russian ship and two companies involved in the Nord Stream 2 gas pipeline, but opponents of the nearly completed project said the measures would not stop it.

The sanctions were imposed on ship Ostap Sheremeta, ship owner JSC Nobility and construction company Konstanta, the State Department said in a report to congressional committees. A copy of the report was seen by Reuters.....

  http://news.yahoo.com/u-issues-nord-stream-2-165833974.html?fr=sycsrp_catchall 

Fathertime! 

[GQBlues]

You are doing the BC either/or fallacy. It's not either/or

Either we stay in Afghanistan forever OR we leave 15,000 American citizens
trapped behind with the Taliban.

You are a gleaming example of a fake news subscriber. Your partisan blame game is 14 months too late. Commercial flights didn’t stop operating until last Sunday. When the Doha Agreement was signed February 29, 2020, any and all American Companies and it’s employees knew, or should’ve know or been advised by, their respective employers; of the remaining periods with which it had left to begin their own respective demobilization program. Those silly *15,000 trapped Americans* had 14 months to leave, ferchrissakes!

$300 million/day is simply too darn hard to abandon , man.

The trump administration had a continuing obligation once that ink dried up in Doha to begin their withdrawal policy, not only to closely, comprehensively and continually advised American companies operating in Afghanistan, especially in concert with their US troop drawdown timeline, but to strongly encourage if not demand to exercise their parallel withdrawal program.

Just as important, immediately and properly staff their immigration processing to hasten procedures for allied Afghans to begin their registration and give those willing and able the necessary and immediate exit and relocation. While I strongly support the Doha Agreement, the lack of a broader withdrawal plan is the root cause of the current quagmire. Doha Agreement was weak, not only for its lack of withdrawal initiative planning, but also in its decision to exclude the afghan government.

Bush kicked the can for any concise exit from Afghanistan. Obama followed suit. Both are richly rewarded for their effort for their retirements. Trump drew the exit plan with a very narrow vision of what can happen when you pullout the only force that’s holding the opposition at bay from a country besieged by war for decades shadowy ruled by corrupt and warring war lords. Biden inherited the Doha Agreement and stayed within its limited conditioned stipulations.

April 28th the State Dept sent a tensed order for the embassy’s staff to begin leaving Afghanistan. May 15th, this cable was sent to all American firms operating in Afghanistan:

U.S. Embassy strongly suggests that U.S. citizens make plans to leave Afghanistan as soon as possible.

3 whole freaking months before the scene mainstream media started blasting TVs of chaos and partisan hacks began screaming, huffing and puffing.

Biden , despite the current circumstances, showed true leadership for staying the course of getting the US out of another corrupted US nation building program.

[Trenchcoat]

What was biden supposed to do about the Nord steam pipeline?  Why is it the US's call to decide how Russia and Germany do business like that?   Biden threw out some sanctions yesterday.  I'm curious why biden is hurling sanctions out there at all.  What purpose does it serve at this point?  The pipeline is inevitable,  sticking out snout in how other nations do business like this can't be appreciated.   Fruitless. 

U.S. imposes Nord Stream 2 sanctions; opponents say they won't halt project

-The Biden administration on Friday slapped sanctions on a Russian ship and two companies involved in the Nord Stream 2 gas pipeline, but opponents of the nearly completed project said the measures would not stop it.

The sanctions were imposed on ship Ostap Sheremeta, ship owner JSC Nobility and construction company Konstanta, the State Department said in a report to congressional committees. A copy of the report was seen by Reuters.....

  http://news.yahoo.com/u-issues-nord-stream-2-165833974.html?fr=sycsrp_catchall 

Fathertime!

Biden has obviously realised his mistake band is backpedaling. As I understood it the pipeline was at a stage where they couldn't progress anymore with the sanctions in place as they were. I'm guessing the temporary lifting of those sanctions allowed them to get to a stage where they got what they needed to complete the job. The pipeline will make Russia a lot stronger economically and strategically and spread their influence into Central Europe. Them claiming additional territories may become a strong possibility.

The way Biden has handled the Afghanistan situation is a complete disaster. It was a bad move to go in there in the first place but he pulled out in the wrong way and destabilised the country giving it no chance.

[fathertime]

  As I understood it the pipeline was at a stage where they couldn't progress anymore with the sanctions in place as they were. I'm guessing the temporary lifting of those sanctions allowed them to get to a stage where they got what they needed to complete the job.

Where did come up with that?   You think countries such as Germany/Russia couldn't finish their work because of US sanctions?  Most of the world doesn't even cooperate with the US and the ridiculous sanctions we fling about.  Why would they cooperate, they could be next.  The pipeline is inevitable and we (The US) should be remembered as an obstacle, by the Germans.   I don't see enacting sanctions  as projecting strength

Fathertime! 

[GQBlues]

Brookings Institute made a nice comprehensive accounting of activities in Afghanistan since 2001 to around 2011. Not sure why it discontinued after 2011.

http://www.brookings.edu/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/index20111231.pdf

[2tallbill]

$300 million/day is simply too darn hard to abandon , man.

Bullcr@p! 15,000 people were not paid millions to work in Afghanistan.
People got double or triple wages to work in Afghanistan not millions.

Biden was in charge and he should have told everyone to GTFO but he
didn't. If Biden made a big announcement that all US citizens need to
be on a plane headed out by July first then again on July 30 I wouldn't
be beating up Biden, but he didn't.

Biden does one thing right and now he gets excused for being a crooked
f#ck up?

I don't get you.

[Boethius]

In 2006, when the Israeli-Lebanon war flared up, Lebanese-Canadians demanded to be evacuated.  The Harper government, at considerable expense, evacuated approximately 14,370 Canadians by chartering planes (there are over 60,000 Canadians in Lebanon).  Do you know how many of those Canadians were not of Lebanese descent?  Zero.  They were Canadians "of convenience".


I suspect the majority of the 15,000 Americans trapped in Afghanistan are dual citizens.  It doesn't make them less American.  However, you don't know how many of them are "trapped", versus staying with family, deciding what options they have, etc. 

[GQBlues]

Bullcr@p! 15,000 people were not paid millions to work in Afghanistan.
People got double or triple wages to work in Afghanistan not millions.

Biden was in charge and he should have told everyone to GTFO but he
didn't. If Biden made a big announcement that all US citizens need to
be on a plane headed out by July first then again on July 30 I wouldn't
be beating up Biden, but he didn't.

Biden does one thing right and now he gets excused for being a crooked
f#ck up?

I don't get you.

There you go again. I need not repeat that there were 14 months after signing the Doha Agreement to begin to demobilize. 14 months. State department cabled a stern message 3 months before now to leave Afghanistan as soon as possible.

Double, triple compensation you mentioned, if true, caused these people to ignore such and decided to dragged their booties, and made a conscious decision to stay despite the above knowledge and event.

I can think of a much suited description to describe their current condition instead of *trapped^ that you’re fond of using, LMAO.

Now you can keep your partisan hack about * trapped Americans* as much as you like, bottom line, the fact is they all had, and received, more than ample time to leave - they simply did not.

You can blame Biden for this till the cow’s come home, but you would also be denying reality. I chose not to subscribe to fake news diatribe myself.

[BC]

Bullcr@p! 15,000 people were not paid millions to work in Afghanistan.
People got double or triple wages to work in Afghanistan not millions.

And the companies they worked for that DOD and other agencies contracted?  IIRC quite a few scandals in the past, overcharging for meals, fuel and other profitable goods.  Some are civilian contractors doing military jobs, from cooking to clearing unexploded ordnance.  I call such our hidden military.

Some, like my friend and military team chief went after such high paid jobs.  He was killed by a roadside bomb in Iraq.  Kinda sad.. he was retired, had a decent income at home and spent his time fishing. His family didn't want him to go.  The company he worked for got the big bucks.  Double, triple, quadruple time was chump change in the grand scheme of things.

[tfcrew]

Brookings Institute made a nice comprehensive accounting of activities in Afghanistan since 2001 to around 2011. Not sure why it discontinued after 2011.

http://www.brookings.edu/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/index20111231.pdf

Note [page 24] how much the opium production increased during the Obama/Biden administration.

[Gator]

Hi Everyone,

A couple of you have sent me PMs, and in responding  this topic caught my attention.

I worked for the UN in the region over 40 years ago and went to Afghanistan as a tourist before the Soviets invaded.  I knew the Afghani pronounced their caital Kabul as ka-BOOL' rather than CA'-ble. That brief visit has kept me interested in the country, and I have enjoyed subsequent conversations with the rare Afghani I meet in life and the occasional returning soldier.

I strongly agreed with the decision to go after OBL and give the Taliban a whooping in the process.  Yet, I was against occupying the nation on a long-term basis, especially for 20 years.   IMO we could have accomplished more at a much lower cost by a Charlie Wilson strategy to work with the tribes, warlords, etc. on a decentralized basis  rather than build a centralized American-style Army with the inherent corruption.  Congress did not listen to Charlie Wilson after his remarkable success, and Congress after Congress, and President after President continued the same mistake, with the inertia probably fueled by incorrect reports from the military generals and DOD contractors. 

The intitaiatves of progressive Democrats are forging  some profound changes in America, changes that will be felt years away.  Any early signs of trouble are dismissed as "transitory."   However, Afghanistan is one present, clear and stark signal that the Democrats are grossly incomptetent.   

The descision to minimize our presence in Afghanistan was correct.  However, the plan to execute this decision was incompetent.  Whose idea was it to withdraw the troops before evacuating the US citizens?  Whose idea was it to abandon Bagram airport built by the Soviets?   These examples make one think that maybe Biden is indeed in-charge.

Lets hope that Biden is able to keep the so called kinder and gentler Talliban from killing our citizens.  Yes, many of those citizens are DOD contractors, yet many were doing charity-type missions such as teaching, healthcare, etc. for international organizations and NGOs.   Their safety is literally in the hands of the Talliban, whose decentarized command includes radicals.

And then we have the issue of Afghani refugees who helped the US military.

Enough. 

BTW, I am having a blast.  My major problem is needing two sequenced surgeries on my ankle.  I reluctantly accepted my Disabled Parking Permit, yet here are so many other decrepit old dudes that frequently I can not find an open space.   Surprisingly the parking places reserved for Veterans are used less. 

[fathertime]

Note [page 24] how much the opium production increased during the Obama/Biden administration.

Insatiable demand from the 'exceptional' US and our supplier.

Fathertime!