Afghanistan

[BillyB]

Good. I'm glad you said that. All the more reason they should've left over the 14 months considering their employer had urged them, if not downright command, they need to leave.

They are paid by their employer to be there. Their employers didn't tell them to leave. If the government is paying contractors to supply personnel, they will continue to do so. Nobody would've stayed if they knew Biden was going to pull out the way he did. Our European friends understand the danger Biden put their citizens in. This isn't all about American citizens. Biden is responsible for all lives. Some are gone today due to an explosion at the airport. At least 5 American soldiers injured. Maybe some died. They are trying to sort out the mess right now.

[Trenchcoat]

Whatever the way of our leaving Afghanistan, it looks like long term they were/are screwed. Afghanistan is essentially bankrupt with little likely in the way of future revenue other than from opium production:

http://inews.co.uk/news/world/afghanistan-economy-crisis-taliban-state-kabul-lights-out-1168001

Apart from the cost to the west of basing UK forces in the country they would have likely have had to foot the bill of Afghanistan avoiding economic collapse. I doubt the west could afford either as all of our economies are near the brink with having dealt with the virus. The lights are about to go out in Afghanistan probably just after we leave on the 31st they'll pull the plug. That'll leave the Taliban & Afghans at large back in medieval times. The Taliban like that so they probably won't be too bothered but other Afghans may feel it. On top of that extremely few Afghans will have access to the Coronavirus vaccine so they will be left to just take whatever comes with that one. Essentially the future doesn't look very bright for them. Probably the first nation to crack as a result of the virus. Matters could get increasingly uncivilised out there I reckon.

[GQBlues]

They are paid by their employer to be there. Their employers didn't tell them to leave. If the government is paying contractors to supply personnel, they will continue to do so.

BillyB, then what's the uproar about 'leaving Americans behind' that you've been up in arms for? BTW - The employer cited in my response to Bill's post is the US government, and they repeatedly told them to leave ASAP.

Nobody would've stayed if they knew Biden was going to pull out the way he did. Our European friends understand the danger Biden put their citizens in. This isn't all about American citizens. Biden is responsible for all lives. Some are gone today due to an explosion at the airport. At least 5 American soldiers injured. Maybe some died. They are trying to sort out the mess right now.

I really do believe your displayed horrid partisanship have blinded you in more than a few details and fact surrounding this crisis. I will urge you to stop ingesting daily fake news for a bit and give yourself some time to catch-up and understand 'how & what and whodunnits' that got us to where we are today. So many holes in your perception.

Bottom line to you, and everyone else...in my lifetime, I have never known, or witness, where a defeated nation gets to dictate how pretty they'd like to withdraw and end the war. Now is the *best worse time* to do so for us, or we'll be mired in this forever war all over again.

[fathertime]

 
  We desperately need a serious overhaul as a nation.

I have to agree.  Overall, we have little to be arrogant about nowadays.   Work ethic (Generally speaking) is rather bad, and that is the crux of how a nation can thrive.  Another way of course is to use the military to dominate other nations and capture easy resources, those days appear to be ending though...so back to the way it probably should be where hard or smart work is what brings prosperity. 
 You know my solution!  Bring in more immigrants!   

Fathertime! 

[tfcrew]

I doubt the weaponry was overly sophisticated.   

How many times are you going to post that? What was left behind--- bows and arrows ...slingshots and spears?

http://nypost.com/2021/08/20/us-left-billions-in-weapons-in-afghanistan-with-black-hawks-in-talibans-hands/
 
 

[tfcrew]

Dozens of civilians, 12 U.S. troops killed in Kabul airport attack

Aug 26 (Reuters) - Islamic State struck the crowded gates of Kabul airport in a suicide bomb attack on Thursday, killing scores of civilians and 12 U.S. troops, and throwing into mayhem the airlift of tens of thousands of Afghans desperate to flee.
Kabul health officials were quoted as saying 60 civilians were killed. Video shot by Afghan journalists showed dozens of bodies strewn around a canal on the edge of the airport. At least two blasts rocked the area, witnesses said.
Islamic State said one of its suicide bombers targeted "translators and collaborators with the American army". U.S. officials also blamed the group. read more

http://www.reuters.com/world/asia-pacific/western-nations-race-complete-afghan-evacuation-deadline-looms-2021-08-25/

[fathertime]

How many times are you going to post that? What was left behind--- bows and arrows ...slingshots and spears?

http://nypost.com/2021/08/20/us-left-billions-in-weapons-in-afghanistan-with-black-hawks-in-talibans-hands/

Depends on how many times I think it is necessary. 
Show me evidence of all the nuclear bombs we left behind

Fathertime!   

[Gator]

Dozens of civilians, 12 U.S. troops killed in Kabul airport attack

What a tragedy!  More stories of young men paying the ultimate price in defending Americans. 

What a cowardly act!  A withdrawal is very vulnerable to attack, especially a poorly planned withdrawal.  We are doing exactly what they wanted, namely leaving their country; yet, they take potshots as we exit....... for the sole purpose of killing.   

The suicide attacks probably can be traced to the release of 4,800 ISIS and AQ prisoners when we abandoned the Bagram airfield.  We did not anticipate our withdrawal would: 1) be chaotic, 2) depend upon the Taliban for security,  and 3) be so slow that the released prisoners had time to organize and return to  the "battlefield."

[Admin]

Depends on how many times I think it is necessary. 
Show me evidence of all the nuclear bombs we left behind

Fathertime!

Necessary for what? You have already made your point the first time you posted it. More than that appears proselytizing. Proselytizing defeats discourse and encourages hostile responses. That is not welcome here.

[tfcrew]

   More stories of young men paying the ultimate price in defending Americans.

Here's one--- I will go ahead and post though it's been about 13 years....His mom is my oldest cousin [mother's side] His dad is a Univ of Nebr graduate from Guatemala. He had a wife and 2 daughters...a brother and 2 sisters. We called him Berto [for Roberto] when he was a kid.
 

An IED in Afghanistan did him in. He was laid up at Bethesda. In his mercy, the Lord took him.
http://thefallen.militarytimes.com/army-capt-robert-j-yllescas/3849520

[Gator]

But anyone who doesn't just digest the daily installment of fake news about this crisis would easily understand that Trump is as much at fault, if not downright at fault, of this fumbled situation.

You seem to have as much a problem with Trump as with Biden.  Indeed, Trump started the ball rolling, the ball being "ending an endless war."   However, is that not the proper decision?  American sentiment says yes.  Who knows how Trump would have exceuted his plan to withdraw from Afghanistan.  I have trouble believing it would have been this chaotic and deadly.


This GQ statement caught my eye:

It also exposed the myth that Trump told the Talibans that if they *harmed any Americans that they will be hit so hard like they've never been hit before*. That never happened.

Trump and his negotiators say he spoke strongly when negotiating with the Taliban.   Only you and the Taliban spokesman say otherwise. 

You are correct that Trump had trouble working with the DOD and generals.  Not just Mattis and Milley but Esper too.   That is because Trump wanted to end all of America's little wars.  I applaud Trump for destroying ISIS, then I criticize him for how he next abandoned the Kurds who did the dirty fighting against ISIS.  Yet, with regard to Afghanistan I am not putting Trump in the same boat as Biden. 

[Gator]

Here's one--- I will go ahead and post though it's been about 13 years....His mom is my oldest cousin [mother's side] His dad is a Univ of Nebr graduate from Guatemala. He had a wife and 2 daughters...a brother and 2 sisters. We called him Berto [for Roberto] when he was a kid.
 

An IED in Afghanistan did him in. He was laid up at Bethesda. In his mercy, the Lord took him.
http://thefallen.militarytimes.com/army-capt-robert-j-yllescas/3849520

It hits the heart when you personally knew the fallen.   

[tfcrew]

[BillyB]

Dozens of civilians, 12 U.S. troops killed in Kabul airport attack

I just read an article that it's 60 dead with 13 being American troops. The death toll continues to climb since some in the hospital may not make it.


In the last year and a half, no American troops were killed. Trump was winding things down safely. For awhile Biden kept the same program. A month ago Taliban goes to China. Two weeks ago Biden suddenly pulls troops out before civilians and all hell breaks loose. China is going to do business with Afghanistan which has the largest lithium reserves in the world. China will control green energy and we'll pay for it.


No advisor would recommend pulling out of Afghanistan in the worst possible way. Biden ignored all his advisors. What he did was on purpose. Biden even gave the Taliban a list of the Americans we want out of there. Does he trust them or did he do it on purpose? The Taliban could pass the list to assassins that will get the high value targets. We had intelligence that said attacks on Americans were immanent. That is why the State Dept. told Americans to not come to the airport. Why were so many of our troops exposed to this danger on the outside of the airport?

[GQBlues]

You seem to have as much a problem with Trump as with Biden.  Indeed, Trump started the ball rolling, the ball being "ending an endless war."   However, is that not the proper decision?  American sentiment says yes.

Of course, IMO, ending this war IS the right thing to do. Neither you or I, Trump  AND Biden had wavered with that sentiment.

Who knows how Trump would have exceuted his plan to withdraw from Afghanistan.  I have trouble believing it would have been this chaotic and deadly.

That’s easy. He already did just that in Syria with the Kurds. Not only that, he wanted to pull ALL of the US troops out of Afghanistan back in December! Imagine what the consequences of that would’ve been knowing what we see today.

Leaving 2,500 is just as bad. You already have 6,000 troops just to manage KIA’ interior today and there’s still chaos as it is. How the heck can you manage Bagram airfield base, protect the embassy and KIA with 2,500 soldiers seeing what you’re  looking at today?

This GQ statement caught my eye:

Trump and his negotiators say he spoke strongly when negotiating with the Taliban.   Only you and the Taliban spokesman say otherwise.

Untrue. You can add Zalmay Khalilzad, Lisa Curtis to the list. The Talibans blatantly broke the Doha agreement even before Biden took office, and Trump did nothing. Zip. That doesn’t paint the man you seem to suggest he is.

You are correct that Trump had trouble working with the DOD and generals.  Not just Mattis and Milley but Esper too.   That is because Trump wanted to end all of America's little wars.  I applaud Trump for destroying ISIS, then I criticize him for how he next abandoned the Kurds who did the dirty fighting against ISIS.

Amen. I rest my case.

Yet, with regard to Afghanistan I am not putting Trump in the same boat as Biden.

Fair enough. I do. Based on what I had already provided, I hold Trump equally responsible, if not even more so.

[fathertime]

Necessary for what? You have already made your point the first time you posted it.

I have seen 'sensitive weapons' twice here that I can remember, and both times I've stated I don't think so.  There is little chance of changing the posters opinion on the matter, although leaving the statement untouched would allow what I believe to be an unproven statement remain unchallenged.  A lie (In this case, unproven statement) going unchallenged shouldn't elicit hostile responses, but I recognize it might. 

Fathertime! 

[fathertime]

You are correct that Trump had trouble working with the DOD and generals.  Not just Mattis and Milley but Esper too.   That is because Trump wanted to end all of America's little wars.  I applaud Trump for destroying ISIS, then I criticize him for how he next abandoned the Kurds who did the dirty fighting against ISIS.  Yet, with regard to Afghanistan I am not putting Trump in the same boat as Biden.

Look at much of Trump's presidency...rather chaotic.   Who knows how our departure in Afghanistan would have went under trump, but I can see type of thing happening regardless of who was president.  Trump has the priviledge of watching Biden take the hits because he is currently in office.  Trump could have chosen to support biden, as biden has followed through with trump's earlier moves in Afghanistan. 

Fathertime! 

[Gator]

That’s easy. He already did just that in Syria with the Kurds.

Yes, Kurds, not American troops.   Anyway, the generals lied to Trump and actually had many more deployed than what they told Trump.

I believe you are missing an important part of the story here is how the US military has lied to Presidents over the decades.   For sure they lied to Obama, Trump and Biden about how well the dual missions of building an Afghan Army and winning the hearts and minds of the Afghani were progressing.

Another part of the story is how we have continued to support Pakistan even though their ISI has been supporting and funding the Taliban forever.   And while ISI is funding the Taliban, the US has been Pakistan's top donor. 

Not only that, he wanted to pull ALL of the US troops out of Afghanistan back in December! Imagine what the consequences of that would’ve been knowing what we see today.

I thought the target was May, which makes sense as this is the end of the winter season and the start of Taliban's fighting season.  May thru August gave the Taliban time to mount its offensive, leading to the collapse of the Sfghan army.


 

Leaving 2,500 is just as bad. You already have 6,000 troops just to manage KIA’ interior today and there’s still chaos as it is. How the heck can you manage Bagram airfield base, protect the embassy and KIA with 2,500 soldiers seeing what you’re  looking at today?

Consider either Bagram or KIA.  Bagram could be defended  with much fewer troops than KIA.  The terrain is open and not part of urban congestion.  Crowd control would have been easier.

Untrue. You can add Zalmay Khalilzad, Lisa Curtis to the list. The Talibans blatantly broke the Doha agreement even before Biden took office, and Trump did nothing. Zip. That doesn’t paint the man you seem to suggest he is.

I will await the Congressional oversight hearing for better information.  Yet given politics on the Hill, I will not hold my breath.

I hold Trump equally responsible, if not even more so.

This chaos was created not by Trump's decision to negotiate withdrawal with the Taliban, but by Biden's execution of the withdrawal.  To be honest, I believe it a waste for Trump to have talked with the Taliban.  They are religious fanatics who can not be trusted.  But here we are, depending upon Taliban for security. 
 

[Gator]

Maybe Biden should have studied the Soviet withdrawal from Afghanistan.  The Soviets intervention in Afghanistan lasted 9 years (not 20) yet their withdrawal still occurred over 8 months even with a shared border. 

Based on troop numbers one could say the US has been withdrawing for 10 years. 

[Gator]

A mere 5% of those evacuated from Afghanistan through the Kabul Airport are American citizens, raising questions about the nature of the mass airlifts from the country following its capitulation to the Taliban.   

http://patriotsignal.com/shock-bidens-afghanistan-evacuation-leaked-its-bad/

[tfcrew]

It hits the heart when you personally knew the fallen.

A movie was filmed about that Afghani incident [I haven't seen it though]--- The Outpost.
Milo Gibson [son of Mel Gibson] portrays my cousin....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Outpost_(2020_film)

Captain Rob [he was called] fathered two girls. One here graduated from high school just before that movie was released---

http://www.cnn.com/2019/08/20/us/nebraska-senior-photos-father-afghanistan-trnd/index.html

[tfcrew]

  Matters could get increasingly uncivilised out there I reckon.

Next stop for the Taliban could be Pakistan. Pakistan has nuclear weapons [tell that one to fathertime] Or maybe Iraq first....maybe

[BillyB]

Maria Zack who discovered Italy and MI6's role in our elections contacted Doug Billings(some say he's the next Rush Limbaugh) a few hours before the bombing to say a bombing at the airport is going to happen. If she knew it based off her intel sources, our government knew it. There's no excuse to put troops out in harms way.


Edward Snowden gave an interview in Russia a couple of years ago. He said although our phones are off, it's constantly recording video and sound. NSA has a folder of everybody on earth that has certain phones. Super computers can pick up language and send it to human ears. For example, if you say or write you want to assassinate a certain person, the computer will send your words to human ears. It's why we can catch terrorists easily.  We knew a terrorist bombing was imminent yet those in charge put our troops out there anyway.

[BC]

Other than to (again) inject your election mis and disinformation, how is your post above germane to this topic BillyB?  For days warnings were given that current intel indicates an attack was possible and even imminent.

[BC]

Stepping back a bit and just looking at the sheer numbers of those evacuated, 100 thousand plus thus far, I'd say quite an achievement.  American citizens and military/contractor personnel are only a small portion of that number.  With a few days to go, what are we looking at, 130 thousand, maybe more?  Where do we draw the line?  Obviously, it will not be possible to get everyone out that may want to get out for whatever reason.  Much will depend on the Taliban upholding their end of any agreements made.  Thus far, I see no great effort on the part of the Taliban to overtly and forcefully hinder the evacuation, but they have to draw the line as well.

As far as the ISIS bombing, killing many trying to enter the airport, along with those serving our military, such cowardly actions may well be construed to try and break even the minimal US - Taliban relations/communications that exist.  ISIS can fight the Taliban, they can fight the US, but would have a much harder time fighting both.

I'm not that well-informed, even ignorant of many aspects and relationships involved, but do see the possibility of constructive dialogue and opportunities. Let's say I hope for the best, instead of dwelling on the worst that could happen.