Politics regarding struggle for Ukraine

[Jumper1]

As far as Odessa, that's accurate according to people I know there.

[Grumpy]

A controversial piece:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2022/05/24/republican-gop-pro-russia-pro-putin-ukraine-war-isolationism/

[ML]

A controversial piece:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2022/05/24/republican-gop-pro-russia-pro-putin-ukraine-war-isolationism/

Can you please post a readable copy here ?

The site you gave requires subscription to read.

[Boethius]

http://archive.ph/3SkqG

[ML]

http://archive.ph/3SkqG

Thanks for that reference.

[ML]

“Imagine the three allies – the USSR, the US, and Britain – meeting up in 1942-1943 and saying: ‘look, the situation at the front is really tough. We need to call Hitler and offer him a deal. Maybe we’ll need to make several concessions to stop him. We need to act wisely.’”

My addition:  That type of policy worked very well for Neville.

[ML]

The Military Roots of Modern Ukraine

Ukraine was once central to Soviet defense production. That history has shaped the country’s politics, much as today’s war will determine its future.

“War made the state, and the state made war,” the sociologist Charles Tilly once wrote. Success on the battlefield, he observed, required states to construct the powerful, centralized institutions that would define them in the modern era—institutions with the coercive power to effectively extract taxes and draft soldiers, for example.

Tilly’s theory might seem distant from the current war in Ukraine. But war has profoundly shaped Ukraine’s political institutions at least since the aftermath of World War II, and it now looks certain to do so well into the future.

When Ukraine became independent in 1991, defense was its most advanced industry.

In the early 1950s, the U.S.S.R. sought to revive its devastated cities by means of its defense industry. The Soviet leadership chose the southern Ukrainian city of Dnipropetrovsk (today, Dnipro) for the construction of a new satellite and intercontinental ballistic missile plant, known today as Pivdenmash. Dnipropetrovsk’s defense production grew at pace with the Soviet arms race against the West. And while none of its missiles were launched at their intended targets, Dnipropetrovsk became the launching pad for the careers of numerous Soviet statesmen: For three decades, officials affiliated with the city’s military industry rose through the ranks to occupy leading roles in various ministries, the KGB and the Communist Party.

The symbiosis of arms manufacturing and political power brought prosperity to Dnipropetrovsk, promoted the careers of regional elites and helped the U.S.S.R. assert its global status. But it also helped create the conditions for the Soviet state’s eventual undoing. Awash in subsidies and shielded by its strategic importance, the Soviet military sector quickly ossified and became impervious to reform—a conservative force in Soviet society and an obstacle to investment in infrastructure or consumer goods that might have helped fulfill the system’s emancipatory promises.

When Ukraine became independent in 1991, defense was its most advanced industry. But like the rest of the country’s economy, the industry depended on production and distribution chains that connected it to other former Soviet republics. The collapse of the U.S.S.R. plunged Ukraine into a profound economic crisis. Between 1990 and 1999, according to World Bank figures, the Ukrainian GDP contracted by 60%, in constant prices and never recovered.

Leonid Kuchma, a rocket engineer and chief director of the Pivdenmash missile plant since 1986, became the country’s prime minister in 1992 and president in 1994. He promised moderate reforms and technocratic stability. But he had to navigate between one camp—including the “red directors” in charge of Ukraine’s industries at the time—that insisted on the necessity of preserving ties with Russia, and another—nationalists and democrats—that argued for liberalization and Westernization. Under Mr. Kuchma, the country adopted a constitution in 1996 that declared Ukraine “a state with a constantly neutral, nonaligned status.”

During Mr. Kuchma’s two terms, regional business networks in Dnipropetrovsk and Donetsk grew into financial-industrial groups that combined control of heavy industrial assets with media power and political influence. Arbitrating among these oligarchic groups, Mr. Kuchma built a system of patronage that gave him vast power. Wary that his successor would inherit it and use it to attack the oligarchs, among whom was his son-in-law, Mr. Kuchma also pushed through constitutional reforms that moved the center of power from the presidency to the parliament.

Oligarchic rivalry became entrenched in the legislature, where the wealthy businessmen in control of these interest groups began to support rival factions. They waged demagogic campaigns that polarized the public: a nationalist, pro-European, neoliberal political camp supported by voters from rural Western Ukraine and the urban middle class was pitted against a Russophone, relatively pro-Russian camp supported by voters from the more industrialized Southern and Eastern Ukraine. Workers and managers of Ukraine’s much diminished defense industry, particularly in Dnipropetrovsk, Zaporizhzhia and Kharkiv, predominantly supported the latter. Ukraine soon found itself in a culture war that helped produce a pro-European revolution in 2014, quickly followed by war with Russia-sponsored separatists.

At independence, Ukraine had inherited approximately 30% of the Soviet defense industry and around 40% of the Soviet Armed Forces, totaling some 700,000 troops in a country of 52 million. But Ukraine couldn’t pay for a military this size. Mr. Kuchma and subsequent presidents cut military spending and decommissioned or sold off military assets to buyers in developing countries. As a result, by the time the country found itself at war in 2014, its military was decimated. Ukraine had no leverage with which to repel the Russian annexation of Crimea or to reach a favorable settlement in Donbas.

The war that began in 2014 permanently transformed Ukrainian politics. Around 4.5 million Ukrainian citizens—roughly 10% of the country’s total prewar population—now lived in territories no longer controlled by the central government, in Donbas and Crimea. These were once the core voters of the pro-Russian political camp. That camp’s purchase on Ukrainian politics began to dwindle, strengthening pro-European political forces.

The two wartime presidents, Petro Poroshenko and Volodymyr Zelensky, followed similar trajectories. They both entered office as political omnivores, seeking to appeal to all sides of Ukraine’s diverse and divided polity, and campaigning for peace and reconciliation. But the complex task of balancing among corrupt oligarchs, countering Russia’s expansionism, managing Ukraine’s financial dependence on the West and assuaging disaffected voters left both presidents little space to maneuver.

Both eventually came to side with the most organized and vociferous constituency in Ukrainian politics, made more powerful by the war: the Westernizing nationalists. Mr. Poroshenko pushed through changes to the constitution that replaced the neutrality and nonalignment clause with one about Ukraine’s aspiration to join the EU and NATO. Mr. Zelensky followed in his footsteps. The similarity between them suggests that the war and the forces it has unleashed have become an independent variable in Ukrainian politics.

The Russian invasion will shape the Ukrainian state and politics in other ways as well. If the country withstands this conflict, it will remain militarized in anticipation of future aggression from its hostile neighbor. Eight years of war have increased the preparedness and prestige of the armed forces, making the army one of the country’s most trusted social institutions. A new generation of mid-ranking officers has emerged, along with publicly recognizable leaders of volunteer militias: These figures may eventually seek to turn their rank and renown into political credentials. And the military itself risks becoming politicized, as there are now army units and militias affiliated with particular parties and movements, mainly on the right.

Rather like the Soviet defense industry, Ukraine’s military will almost certainly become a conservative social force capable of generating its own power elite. As Mr. Zelensky has recently put it, because of the war Ukraine “will become a big Israel”: an embattled country where defense comes before other considerations, and security stands above liberty as the idiom of politics. This Ukraine, Mr. Zelensky said, “will certainly be unlike the one we wanted in the beginning.”
   
By Taras Fedirko

Dr. Fedirko is a social anthropologist at the University of St Andrews, where he researches the political economy of war and media in Ukraine.

Appeared in the May 28, 2022, Wall Street Journal as 'The Military Roots of Modern Ukraine'.

[2tallbill]

http://archive.ph/3SkqG

They are reaching here to find something, anything to use to attack the
GOP. Now I could see a reasonable argument being made as follows.
WTF are we spending $40 billion in Ukraine to secure their borders
when we refuse to secure our own AND WTF will this do to lessen
inflation for Americans?

I think the Biden administration is LOVING this war. Anything that takes
eyeballs off of his failures both home and abroad. I wonder how much the
Biden crime family will receive in kick backs? Surely Hunter will get some
of this money.

"The latest aid package, $40 billion, was just approved by overwhelming majorities —
81 to 11 in the Senate, 368 to 57 in the House. "

[2tallbill]

I saw this video posted at the other place, the video goes a long
way to explaining why Russia hasn't been winning and won't win
in the end.

http://youtu.be/i9i47sgi-V4

[krimster2]

USA system works by having weapons producing companies make their money by selling weapons to governments around the world, and they sell at  huge mark-ups to the government buyers!!

Russian system works by oligarch’s overcharging for military products, bribing people to go along with the fraud, and pocketing the difference

but otherwise…

if we are leasing our weapons to Ukraine, on the EZ installment plan, then perhaps at the war’s end, we can tap into Russia’s seized funds, and yachts FIRST before Ukraine does,

looks like legally, the USA will have to satisfy all who Ukraine owes debt to first, then Ukraine, oh and the USA gets to write the law, since this is all happening in US jurisdiction

this way, RUSSIA will be paying for the US made weapons Ukrainians fire at RUSSIANS!!!

[2tallbill]

USA system works by having weapons producing companies make their money by selling weapons to governments around the world, and they sell at  huge mark-ups to the government buyers!!

Russian system works by oligarch’s overcharging for military products, bribing people to go along with the fraud, and pocketing the difference

but otherwise…

if we are leasing our weapons to Ukraine, on the EZ installment plan, then perhaps at the war’s end, we can tap into Russia’s seized funds, and yachts FIRST before Ukraine does,

looks like legally, the USA will have to satisfy all who Ukraine owes debt to first, then Ukraine, oh and the USA gets to write the law, since this is all happening in US jurisdiction

this way, RUSSIA will be paying for the US made weapons Ukrainians fire at RUSSIANS!!!

Good analysis!

The US has people dipping their beaks into all that money at the top.
A Generals wife might have a consulting gig with Lockheed or their
dumb/lazy son in law might work at Raytheon for favorable treatment.

But there was never a US tanker going to war who stole the copper wiring
out of his own tanks for extra spending money.

[Boethius]

They are reaching here to find something, anything to use to attack the
GOP. Now I could see a reasonable argument being made as follows.
WTF are we spending $40 billion in Ukraine to secure their borders
when we refuse to secure our own AND WTF will this do to lessen
inflation for Americans?

I think the Biden administration is LOVING this war. Anything that takes
eyeballs off of his failures both home and abroad. I wonder how much the
Biden crime family will receive in kick backs? Surely Hunter will get some
of this money.

"The latest aid package, $40 billion, was just approved by overwhelming majorities —
81 to 11 in the Senate, 368 to 57 in the House. "

That was Grumpy’s link, not mine. I merely provided a free link, on request.

[2tallbill]

That was Grumpy’s link, not mine. I merely provided a free link, on request.

I saw that, I appreciate your efforts. Nobody is going to read his pay link.

[krimster2]

there’s NO CONNECTION between the US/Mexican border issue, and our support of Ukraine in it’s war with Russia

what about the border and NASA’s investigation of UFOs?
That seems like the same oxymoron
unless, it’s the BORDER and HUNTER’S Laptop with the folder of Hillary’s missing emails
that’d be important!!
too bad, it doesn’t exist

This is a cheap war for us, when you compare it to Iraq or Afghanistan
and we get some pretty major benefit

Iraq and Afghanistan had an outcome the USA wanted
get rid of Sadam Hussein and Osama Bin Ladin

supporting ukraine will lead to us getting rid of Putin
at 10% the cost we spent on Iraq or Afghanistan
and virtually no casualties
Putin is one of maybe 5 leaders we’d like to have experience regime change

William,
do remember Trump was the ONLY President in US history to be impeached twice...
and getting Republican votes for impeachment as well
why should the media be silent about this?

Trump tried to steal the 2020 election, and in 2016 the Russians helped him steal it
did you read the Mueller report?
I did!!!

only somebody who believes in an imaginary "sky daddy" that you can communicate with telepathically
and professes that because you believe in "sky daddy"
that when you die, you will come back to life and live in the clouds with sky daddy and your frinds and family

ONLY by believing in something like this
can you also believe in Trump
so, what more can I say?
other than that I disagree with you about sky daddy and Trump
sky daddy ain't what you think he is
and neither is Trump

[2tallbill]

Putin’s veiled threat to neighbouring nations in reclaiming Russian land speech
Vladimir Putin has compared himself to Russian tyrant Peter the Great, drawing
parallels between what he portrayed as their twin historic quests to reconquer
Russian lands.

After months of denials that the Kremlin has been driven by imperial ambitions
with the invasion of Ukraine, the Russian president appeared to offer the clearest glimpse yet of his true goals.

Speaking on the 350th anniversary of the tsar’s birth, he said: ‘Peter the Great
waged the Great Northern War for 21 years. It would seem that he was at war
with Sweden, he took something from them. He did not take anything from them,
he returned (what was Russia’s).

read all about it here
http://metro.co.uk/2022/06/10/vladimir-putin-compares-himself-to-russian-tyrant-peter-the-great-16804176/

[krimster2]

Monkey pox in yer socks!


Tales From the Qvas Wagen at some random Ulitsa
Krovavoye Voskreseny (Bloody Sunday)


In January 1905 a wave of strikes, partly planned by one of the legal organizations of workers—the Assembly of Russian Workingmen—broke out in St. Petersburg. The leader of the assembly, hoping to present the workers’ request for reforms directly to Emperor Nicholas II, arranged a mass demonstration. Having told the authorities of his plan, he led the workers—who were peacefully carrying religious icons, pictures of Nicholas, and petitions citing their grievances and desired reforms—toward the square before the Winter Palace

The chief of the security police—Nicholas’s uncle, Grand Duke Vladimir—tried to stop the march and then ordered his police to fire upon the demonstrators. More than 100 marchers were killed, and several hundred were wounded. The massacre was followed by a series of strikes in other cities, peasant uprisings in the country, and mutinies in the armed forces, which seriously threatened the tsarist regime and became known as the Revolution of 1905.

notice the similarity to Maidan, 110 years later

I think this means the police and Army will play a major role in determining what happens after Putin dies and not “Putin’s People”  which consists of 100-500 oligarchs

the choices will be either another Putin to be the new Don, and there will be little change, or a revolution meant to tear down the oligarchy completely, and there will be HUGE change

[2tallbill]

Team Biden in their attempt to mismanage everything and
prove their absolute ineptness decided to send
The M142 High Mobility Artillery Rocket System (HIMARS)
System to Ukraine.

Wait, you say that it's a top notch system and will greatly
benefit Ukraine's ability to protect themselves from Russian
artillery.

How is team Biden incompetent?

Ukraine needs at least 300 of these units but 400 would be better. How many
is the team Biden Inept Squad (BIS) sending to Ukraine? Knowing that 100
units would not be enough. Who can tell me how many of these systems
Bungling Biden is sending to Ukraine?

He is sending 4 with no plans to send more.

EVERY SINGLE NEWS STATION HAS shown clips of the HIMARS firing rockets.
Team Biden has been bragging that they finally decided to send real weapons
to Ukraine that can make a difference in this war but nobody tells us that they
are only sending four (4) of them.

There is a 2,450 kilometer-long (1,522 miles) war front with Russia and Biden
fixed it so that there are nearly 400 miles between artillery pieces. Is team
Biden really that dumb or are they intentionally being dishonest and deceitful?

My view is that they are both

[krimster2]

Please don’t make this a “team Biden” thing, otherwise we should talk about team Trump as well

you KNOW, the one who cut-off ALL AID to Ukraine for SEVERAL MONTHS waiting for Zelensky to do him “a favor”

and was impeached FOR IT!!!

remember?

And as BO has verified for you, Temp Trump made Ukraine house the weapons in Western Ukraine, “to be used ONLY for emergencies”

the aid, was approved by CONGRESS not Trump, he did EVERYTHING he could to block it
and HE DID BLOCK IT!!

BTW,
Team Biden under Obama created the Pandemic Preparedness Office, Trump disbanded it, how the HELL did that work out for you?



Biden has given more military aid to Ukraine in the last 3 months, than any other country since Great Britain in WWII

with no favors asked in return
but the USA “calls the shots” and NOT Ukraine

[Boethius]

http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=25531.msg565620#msg565620

I read an interesting 10 part Twitter post by a retired US general, who explained why there is a delay in the US providing arms.  In a nutshell, he said it's not just equipment, but repair parts that need to go with them, and then training, that is causing the delays.

I wish I could find it again, but I don't do Twitter, and read it from a link on a Ukrainian based site.

[2tallbill]

Please don’t make this a “team Biden” thing, otherwise we should talk about team Trump as well

Joe Biden proudly admitted ON TV holding back a billion dollar package until
Ukraine fired the prosecutor investigating his son for the millions of payola that
the Biden crime family received. I posted the video right here on this forum.

Biden clearly did what Trump was merely accused of doing.

Are you going to defend sending 4 HIMARS to Ukraine then pretending as if
they did something?  Team Biden didn't send 300 HIMARS to Ukraine because
they are afraid of what would happen if Russia doesn't win.

Team Biden is sending Ukraine just enough stuff to ensure that they get
ground into dust by Russian artillery. If you want to defend team Biden,
sending just 4 units to Ukraine then go ahead and make your case.

Poland likes the system but decided that they needed 500 of them, 
not 4 because that would be nearly useless.

Poland to Acquire 500 HIMARS From US
http://www.thedefensepost.com/2022/06/07/poland-himars-us/

PS. NEWS FLASH Team Trump is no longer president. Team Dementia Boy is.

[2tallbill]

http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=25531.msg565620#msg565620

I read an interesting 10 part Twitter post by a retired US general, who explained why there is a delay in the US providing arms.  In a nutshell, he said it's not just equipment, but repair parts that need to go with them, and then training, that is causing the delays.

I wish I could find it again, but I don't do Twitter, and read it from a link on a Ukrainian based site.

In a nutshell, the American military has the ability to do whatever they
need to do. It's team Biden slow walking everything as they do with anything
they don't really want to do. That way they have the appearance of doing
something without really doing it.

Do you want a permit to drill for oil? Team Biden can make it take half a year
or longer and they will only offer permits for places that don't have any oil.
Then they will lie/complain that the oil companies don't apply for the permits
that they have been offering.

[2tallbill]

Why is the Biden Administration Slow-Walking Military Aid to Ukraine?
http://www.postalley.org/2022/04/22/why-is-the-biden-administration-slow-walking-military-aid-to-ukraine/

[2tallbill]

Defenders of team Biden can explain why Polish MIG's are still in Poland
rather than in Ukraine. They have been weaseling, waffling and sniping
about this for 4 months.

It's sort of difficult to hide the fact that team Biden is holding up Ukraine's
ability to defend itself.

Joe Biden has asked Congress for another Billion in Ukraine aid, while he
roadblocks Poland sending their own planes to Ukraine.

US rejects Poland offer to send fighter jets to Ukraine
http://news.am/eng/news/690453.html

[krimster2]

Biden–Ukraine conspiracy theory
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biden%E2%80%93Ukraine_conspiracy_theory

ezz bullsheet,
ezz ALL BULLSHEET
Biden, Hillary’s emails, pizza parlor teenage sex dungeon, election was stolen from Trump
hydroxy, ivermectin, all BULLSHEET, ALL of it


there may be VERY LEGITIMATE REASONS why the US blocked certain kinds of aid to Ukraine,
if you’d take a break from your pro-Russian news sources (Biden is EVIL and must be removed!)
you’d see that people are actually impressed with the speed of weapons delivery to Ukraine
but that FACT wouldn’t agree with your theories, so you don’t bother to…

[2tallbill]

there may be VERY LEGITIMATE REASONS why the US blocked certain kinds of aid
to Ukraine, if you’d take a break from your pro-Russian news sources (Biden is EVIL
and must be removed!) you’d see that people are actually impressed with the speed
of weapons delivery to Ukraine

but that FACT wouldn’t agree with your theories, so you don’t bother to…

Really? There are reasons not to send certain weapons to Ukraine?

Tell me why team Biden blocked MIG's to Ukraine?
Tell me why they are blocking HIMARS to Ukraine?
Whoops they are sending 4 when they need 400.
What is your explanation for that?

My pro-Russian news sources? I have been linking my news sources
along with my posts. Which of those are pro Russian?

Biden is incompetent and incoherent but he can't be removed. This
is his job for 4 years, besides I sincerely believe that Kameltoe
Harris would do even worse.