TverRomance

[Bruno]

Let me ask a question, if some agencies are honest what do you think they would do if they find a RW in there program that is just trying for a green card or to scam a man.

THEY KICK THEM OUT, and where to you think these RW go many go to free sites or to other agencies that don't care? I also want to say that dose not make all RW on a free site bad. It also dose not make all girls in a full service Agency good.

Marc, free sites KICK OUT scammer too... simply take a look at the black list from freepersonals.ru ( URL from the black list is http://rwbl.com )...

And big surprise, several of these women are listed in the black list because agency have place the advert and try to attract customer... Do you think that the reverse situation exist ?

Taking a look at the first page, 12 women are listed, 6 for asking money and the 6 other for agency who ask fee for continue communication :

- http://rwbl.com/view.php?id=136 : agency Interduet
- http://rwbl.com/view.php?id=133 : agency LightDream
- http://rwbl.com/view.php?id=130 : agency Terra
- http://rwbl.com/view.php?id=129 : agency Paritet
- http://rwbl.com/view.php?id=128 : agency Cloud N9
- http://rwbl.com/view.php?id=127 : agency Pearl

So, Marc, the plague for free site are shared between scammer and agency themself... These agency know that good free site have a lot of visitor, they post a sexy profile, allow a few e-mail exhange and when the fish ( sorry, the man ) is ready, they catch hem... pay or never continue the communication with the sexy young russian woman...

The only bad thing is that these ladies are listed in a black list... they have only make one mistake, choose a bad agency who act like snake... RWBL will be better if they separate scammer and scam agency since in the second case, the women are not guilty... only the agency...

[Marc Dayton]

Bruno,

I was just trying to say? That all services good or bad have bad girls, and have good RW too.

I do think having personal contact with RW is an advance, but Just because an RW tells you full service agencies only have poor girls in there services is like saying only angels are on free sites.

There are Good RW and there are some bad RW in all services pay sites or free sites.

Bruno please don't think I was agents free sites as I am not.

[Jooky]

Marc,

Nobody said that only poor and low life girls use agencies, but certainly agencies attract these type of women.

A while ago I read a thread on one of these boards entitled something like "Is marrying a prositute really a bad thing?". Since then I really wonder what men consider a 'quality' woman to be.  ???

Here is one story from the point of view of a woman I know who used a legitimate honest agency. Now, this woman is just a nice, serious, average Russian woman. She's definitely not the type of woman to feel superior and thumb her nose at the rest of the world. She's no beauty queen, but a good woman for the right man.

She's not meeting the right man in her daily life so she's drawn to some agency hype promising her a better chance to find the right man by looking abroad. Foreign men are more healthy, wealthy, kind, generous and family oriented that local men back home, and there is an abundance of them.

So she signs up and attends a social at a romance tour.

This tour is nothing that she was promised. She finds herself a face in the crowd amongst other well dressed and made up nice looking looking women competing for the attention of a handful of men who are mostly old, unattractive, and socially inept. Most of her time is not spent meeting men, but rather sitting around waiting talking to other women, women more interested in upgrading their lives than in finding the right man, women who poke fun of the men they are taking for a ride, and women gossiping about the 'losers' who they are meeting.

There are some ok men, and they get their pick of the lot or are swarmed by the most aggressive women. The odds favor the men so much that even the 'losers' get dates.

Most of the women, like my friend, go home alone, humiliated after putting their best foot forward only to be rejected by men who they would never even consider and with the realization that they have a much better chance of finding a 'good' man for them in Russia than through a romance tour or agency.

Now one of the mythological traits of Russian women that I tend to believe in is their femininity. Feminine women dream of a prince who comes in and sweeps them off their feet. Feminine women like to be the prize. They like to be pursued by a good and strong man. They believe in romance. They have pride and self respect. They don't want to be interviewed and rejected by one man after another.

The agency experience favors the men, not the women. Men get to pick what women they want to meet. Men go on tours where the odds are stacked in their favor. If it wasn't so agencies would be out of business.

Picture the opposite situation. Imagine a romance tour for men where you go to a hall for dinner and dancing with 50 other men and a handful of women. The men are for the most part young and fit. The women are on average 25 years older than the average man. Many of the women are overweight and physically unattractive. Many are socially inept.

Who wants to go on this tour? Raise your hands men! Don't be shy!

What the hell kind of man would willingly and repeatedly subject himself to this situation? So, what kind of woman would do the same? Maybe there is a lack of quality men in Russia, but does this type of situation present your average woman with better choices?

Lifetime Partners includes this in it's full service deal:

1.Organizing unlimited meetings 10 hours per day of the beautiful ladies of your choice.

What choice do the ladies have? What do they know about you before they meet you on a date? What if no ladies want to meet you?

And how many ladies agree to go on the date with the attitude "What the hell. Why not?"?

Let's face it, the agency route is designed in favor of it's paying customers, the men. It might be a good deal for the men, but it's a bum deal for women who really want to expand their choices. The more women that realize this and the more avenues that become available to them for meeting men the less women with any pride and self respect you will find using agencies.

So while this whole system might appear great for the men, in reality it's not. I would never want to be the best choice for a woman amongst bad choices. I want to be the best choice for her period, and I hope that all men involved in this endeavor feel the same.

[Marc Dayton]

By jookey

This tour is nothing that she was promised. She finds herself a face in the crowd amongst other well dressed and made up nice looking looking women competing for the attention of a handful of men who are mostly old, unattractive, and socially inept. Most of her time is not spent meeting men, but rather sitting around waiting talking to other women, women more interested in upgrading their lives than in finding the right man, women who poke fun of the men they are taking for a ride, and women gossiping about the 'losers' who they are meeting.

--------------------------------
By Marc
This is not a full service like LTP or others agency. This is called a cattle drive. That you want to put the blame on me? Most men are not looking for average looking woman, Also Most if not all the RW are not looking for a 7-11 clerk. She looks for a better life he looks for a better looking RW,
Can you blame this the so called agency for that? You use one size shoe fits all? For all agency.

If you would here the men that use a true full service agency they don’t meet in a cattle call. They put a list of girls together they want to meet. We then contact the girls who they say yes or No. Most RW who use a service can’t afford to pay any cost charged by an agency as it would take food off there table or stop her from buying the new dress she wants! To say nothing but poor girls is like saying Hitler was a nice man? Kill them all?

Here is the sad truth to what you’re only repeating men don’t want ugly or below average looking woman so who else is the RW going to blame for failing she blames it on me, and you believe its all are fault so you tell a story that you only know what she wants you to know.

Even sadder you don’t know the difference from a full service agency and a cattle call or tour group so your advice hearts Newbes the man that needs a full service. Your info is miss leading and told as you understand it? So what you say is only feeling sorry for the RW that men don’t want her how that can be my fault.

[Jooky]

Marc,

Just to clarify, this woman, whose story is just one of many, was signed up with an agency that held a catalog of woman, ran a website online and operated in exactly the same fashion as you described. On occasion the ladies signed up with this agency participated in romance tour socials operated by their affiliated agency, Anastasia Web.

From your own words:

Are next event was in June with getting the LTP RW to attend the A-Web party in Tver this last June. We worked over time to impress A-web to have are RW at this party are count was 95 RW attended the A-Web party from LTP

Now tell me, how is this agency different than Lifetime Partners? How is this woman's experience different than what you offer to the ladies that you sent to one of these cattle drives? Why do you send your client ladies to a cattle drive in the first place if you have a negative attitude towards them?

I'm not trying to fit you into the same shoe size as an agency that operates in an entirely different way. I picked a story of an women's experience with an agency, an honest and reputable one similar to yours and to Tver Romance, on purpose. If I wanted to tell unrelated agency horror stories, I have plenty of others. 

This lady is not ugly or below average, but she is not a stunner. Unless your criteria are purely physical she would certainly be a 'good' woman for many men. Her choices at a reputable agency were far worse than her choices in Russia and she's not the only woman who has experienced this through agencies.

I am not pinning the blame on you or anyone. I'm simply stating what I've learned, what I've heard and what I've seen. I've seen one too many guy get burned or just waste his cash and time on this 'venture', and I've heard mostly negative comments from the ladies involved.

The things stated on this thread serves to reinforce and not contradict what I am saying.

If a 7-11 clerk signs up through your agency do you turn him away? How about someone in construction? Or the military? Where do you draw the line? Is it based on earnings, intelligence or career prestige? If a man that doesn't meet the criteria that most Russian women are looking for signs up through your agency, are you honest and tell them that their chances for landing a Russian hottie that really loves him are slim? Do you tell them they are better off staying at home. That would be honest.

What about the women? If they aren't beauty queens do you send them away? If they don't meet the physical expectations of most bride seekers do you inform that that they might as well stay at home or they will be settling for a man worse than their already limited choices?

[TwoBitBandit]

Picture the opposite situation. Imagine a romance tour for men where you go to a hall for dinner and dancing with 50 other men and a handful of women. The men are for the most part young and fit. The women are on average 25 years older than the average man. Many of the women are overweight and physically unattractive. Many are socially inept.

I don't need to raise my hand and sign up to experience this.  I experience this every week!  This is the bar scene in Silicon Valley!!!

[tims]

Nobody said that only poor and low life girls use agencies, but certainly agencies attract these type of women.

Like av8or1, Dayton and others have said, I gotta disagree with all of your comments regarding agencies, at least in terms of blaming the agency "vehicle" itself for attracting the poor and bad and whatever other qualities you want to attribute to the women therein.  No matter what Darth and the others have to say.  QUIT BLAMING THE AGENCY.  It's the people involved, like most everything else in life, that are the source of the problem.  Agencies aren't any different than the free websites in this regard (hell even Darth was big enough to concede that he's had problems on the free websites), nor are they any better or worse than meeting someone on your own.  I have done ALL three in the FSU and have found that no matter what I've tried, it wasn't the HOW that was the problem, it was the GIRL HERSELF who was the problem (if there was a "problem" to begin with).  Now if you want to be a little more generic and talk about the notion of an international courtship in GENERAL being the beast that attracts the lesser desirables on BOTH SIDES of the table, then I'm with ya.  But to keep on ranting about agencies like many of you do on RWD is simply absurd and biased.

[story about a Russian woman's experience at a cattle call deleted]

What was the purpose of talking about this Jooky?  What, like we don't already know that there are problems on BOTH SIDES of this international marriage process?  I've heard several such stories and I've heard heartbreakers from those 'losers' you spoke of who got taken for money or had their heart stomped on when they didn't do anything to deserve it.  So what do you advocate, that we feel sorry for the woman and not the men?  Personally my heart goes out to anyone who's been screwed over or had a bad experience, no matter where, why or how.  That having been said, if the woman wasn't prepared for such an outcome, she shouldn't have entered the agency to begin with.  As the saying goes, "this process is not for the faint of heart and in the man's case, faint of wallet."  Everyone is responsible for their own actions and if you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen.  The international marriage process "kitchen", not the agency "kitchen", the problem isn't with agencies.  Well, not the legitimate, good ones anyway.

Also, are you trying to say that the women are the only ones who leave meetings feeling as though they've only met men who they wouldn't be interested in even if he was a native to their country?  I certainly hope not, it happens on the man's side too.  More often than I care to remember.  But again, it's a part of the process, it happens, it's normal.  If you can't deal with that, then you need not take part in this venture, EITHER person, the man OR the woman.

The agency experience favors the men, not the women. Men get to pick what women they want to meet. Men go on tours where the odds are stacked in their favor. If it wasn't so agencies would be out of business.

Tours?  I can't think of a (decent) man who's done that who wants to do it again.  Most of us prefer to use other avenues to meet the woman of our future.

Wait, are you actually trying to say that the women a man wants to meet have NO SAY in whether or not the meeting takes place??!?!  Holy hell I certainly hope that, again, you aren't saying something like this!  The men who are bold enough to take on this quest usually get turned down more often than not.  The women are people, human beings and have a right to choose which man they want to spend time with too.  And believe me they exercise that right, which they should.  So IT DOESN'T MATTER WHAT THE AGENCIES OR TOURS DO Jooky, the woman will be the one to ultimately make or break the deal!!  Quit bashing men!

Picture the opposite situation. Imagine a romance tour for men where you go to a hall for dinner and dancing with 50 other men and a handful of women. The men are for the most part young and fit. The women are on average 25 years older than the average man. Many of the women are overweight and physically unattractive. Many are socially inept.

As TwoTimeBandit has already said, this happens everyday in America, so what's your point?  Heck, it's an awesome change of pace for most of us to experience a situation where there are more available women.  That's part of the problem here, the lack of available women.  What part of that don't you understand?  Why do I get the feeling that you want to bash the men who try this thing and talk about all of the innocent angels on the other side of the fence?  Heck, I've met some women in the FSU who ... well, they weren't exactly what you would call "nice" nor did they have good intentions.  Some of them made the wenches here look tame by comparison.  My point being that there are bad apples everywhere (men and women) so why do you only paint one side of the picture?  Not all of the men who go to the FSU are bad and not all of the women who are interested in foreign men are bad either.  It's a buyer beware situation for BOTH SIDES of the equation, Jooky.  Wake up!

What choice do the ladies have? What do they know about you before they meet you on a date? What if no ladies want to meet you?

What do you really know about the woman before you meet her?  What choice do you have as the man?  Again, why are you so down on the men?  Jooky, there are problems for BOTH MEN AND WOMEN in this process.  So what?  It's a part of it.  I choose to look for the good, not the bad and hope that things will work out someday.  At the same time I do not ignore my instinct (most of the time!) and I'm sure that these women do the same thing, which - again - they SHOULD do.

I dunno, maybe you're just looking for something to debate about.......

And how many ladies agree to go on the date with the attitude "What the hell. Why not?"?

More than I care to remember.  Happens all of the time........

Let's face it, the agency route is designed in favor of it's paying customers, the men. It might be a good deal for the men, but it's a bum deal for women who really want to expand their choices. The more women that realize this and the more avenues that become available to them for meeting men the less women with any pride and self respect you will find using agencies.

So while this whole system might appear great for the men, in reality it's not. I would never want to be the best choice for a woman amongst bad choices. I want to be the best choice for her period, and I hope that all men involved in this endeavor feel the same.

We do, but your focus is misguided.  It's NOT THE AGENCIES that are at fault, Jooky!!!  It's the process itself.  If you think that a woman putting her profile up on a free website is any less degrading to their "pride and self respect", you're crazy.  I have met women through such websites who spoke of the fact that they "had to put information in Internet" in the same terms that you speak of agencies, which is bad.  So quit bashing agencies!  As I said earlier in this post, if you want to talk about the problems associated with this process in general, I can agree with that notion, but to blame these problems on agencies like you and many others on RWD do is simply ludicrous. (Gheez but now I'm repeating myself)

One last thing about being the "best choice", as you put it, probably believing that you're somehow being politically correct and noble in the process, which you aren't.  The reality is that for most RW marrying a foreigner is not as attractive of an option as marrying a RM of equal quality.  There are those RW who want to live in a foreign country and yes Jooky, you do have to accept the "upgrading their life" issue as a part of this process.  These such women being excluded, you as a foreigner WILL BE a lesser choice for a RW.  "Period." as you say.  So what?  I mean if given the choice between marrying an equally good RW and AW, which would you choose?  Truthfully.  I would hazard to say that most AM who have a good head on their shoulders would choose the equally good AW to avoid the potential backgroun, cultural and language difficulties associated with an international marriage.

But that isn't the case.  Most AW pale by comparison to most RW in terms of their notion of family and certainly in terms of beauty.  Therefore, it's all about tradeoffs.  We seek better women than we can find here and they seek better men than they can find there, on the whole.  What's the problem with that???!?!  There are worse things and if the two of you can still have a good marriage and good family, then it seems to be a more than acceptable tradeoff to me.

Ok enough of the debate, whatever.  I doubt that you or your cohorts will quit your bitchin about agencies anyway....

Tim

[Rvrwind]

I don't need to raise my hand and sign up to experience this.  I experience this every week!  This is the bar scene in Silicon Valley!!!

TFF

[andrewfi]

Tims, logically, if one accepts, as wrote that you do, that often those involved in international marriage, on both sides of the coin, are flawed; and if one accepts as you and most others seem to do, that agencies are the primary interface between the two,then where is one going to find the greatest proportion of flawed people?
Duh.

Agencies.

Now, should one blame agencies (or more accurately their owners?) for what happens?
Of course, the owners of these businesses are sentient. They have the power of free will. They can choose how they run their businesses. And look at what we have.
1) Agencies that we know to be purposefully scamming clients.
2) Agencies that we know to knowingly harbour scamming women (and men)
3) Agencies that call themsleves honest, and as we see here, are regarded so by some of their clients, but are run by people who are as trustworthy as as a not very trustworthy thing. Given what we have seen here, I might trust some of these folk to buy the next round of drinks, but to help me find my life partner? HAHAHAHAHAHA!

Jooky made good points based upon close knowledge. I agree with what he wrote, based upon similar, if not identical inputs.

If you want to stand a chance of avoiding the scum on the tpo of the mucky barrel, don't put your hands in the barrel! And most certainly do not drink it and try to tell more objective souls that the contents are potable.

Basically, drink from the contents and whilst you may not die, you will get an upset stomach. Ask anyone who has used an agency - truthfully they will tell you. You might get a good outcome, but the process is dirty and demeaning.

Build relationships with normal people in more normal circumstances and you will likely encounter no more problems than normal people having normal relatiinships do.

[mike15]

This tour takes place in the magic land of Oz. The most beautiful women in the world live in this land of Oz  Quote from Jack an agency owner outside of TVER.

Jack...sounds like Dorothy kicked your AZZ.

[mike15]

Just my $.02.....

I was a client of TverRomance for over a year,
All the letters to me seemed real, all the girls I met in their office seemed real, all the girls I kissed, well that is another story .  Natasha and Lyuba treated me great, maybe I am just lucky?

Life Time Partners has been excellent to work with...I love Nadya (the office manager).  I would do anything thing for her as she has gone out of her way for me and my girlfriend.  Marc is a great guy, just a bit too emotional on this thing (Marc...please, please hit the spell check).

I like using an agency, of course you have to pay for the services, but I feel it is well worth it.  I have used free services and most of the girls I dealt with seemed to be SCAMERS.  Agents can have flaws in every industry, just pick the right one.

[tims]

Tims, logically, if one accepts, as wrote that you do, that often those involved in international marriage, on both sides of the coin, are flawed; and if one accepts as you and most others seem to do, that agencies are the primary interface between the two,then where is one going to find the greatest proportion of flawed people?
Duh.

Agencies.

Actually it's your logic that's flawed, in a way.  You seem to be saying that just because more men will use agencies than won't that agencies are where the "concentration" of bad people or businesses primarily exist.  So it's a percentage thing.  Boy but that's screwed up.  Are you honestly advocating that the free websites aren't just as crooked proportionally (eg percentage) to the number of crooked agencies?  The theme behind my entire post is that it isn't the agencies that are the problem, it's the international marriage process ITSELF that is the problem, the very notion of this type of "business" (be it an agency or a free website) will attract some of those individuals who are not "honest" simply because they view it as a way to make money.  HOW they go about making that money dishonestly is immaterial, be it an agency or a free website.  So again, all of you should quit bashing agencies, it's not the entity of an agency that is the problem, it is the PEOPLE who run it that are the problem.  And I don't believe that more of these type of PEOPLE will choose to open an agency vs. run a free website.

Build relationships with normal people in more normal circumstances and you will likely encounter no more problems than normal people having normal relatiinships do.

And just HOW do you propose "building relationships with normal people" from across a major ocean?  What, use a free website?  Oh yeah right, like that's "normal" - gheeez but I hope you're not saying something that stupid.  And if you're advocating doing something like moving over there and spending months at a time in the FSU, sorry, for most of us in the real world that's not an option.  So does that mean we can't build "normal" (and what the hell do you mean by "normal" anyway?!?!?!?!!) relationships via other methods?!  Hell no, of course we can.  By your view, we should only consider developing "normal relatiinships" with AW because it isn't possible to do it with RW.  Yeah right, whatever.

Like I said, it's doubtful that you agency haters will sing a different tune anyway, so I'll just forget about it, whatever.  I choose to look on this thing as a good alternative to AW and that there will be good and bad everywhere in the FSU, no matter how I meet a woman, be it with an agency, in person on the street, a free website or setup through friends.  I have done 'em all, andrewfin and the results were the same.  It all depended on the character of the individual woman, not how I met her.  Agencies weren't any worse than anything else in this regard, so based on my experience in the FSU, any man should use an agency if that agency has a good track record from those who have USED ITS SERVICES in person, on site.

Whatever,

Tim

[KenC]

Basically, drink from the contents and whilst you may not die, you will get an upset stomach. Ask anyone who has used an agency - truthfully they will tell you. You might get a good outcome, but the process is dirty and demeaning.Build relationships with normal people in more normal circumstances and you will likely encounter no more problems than normal people having normal relationships do.

As a man that used an agency (LTP) to find my lovely wife, I can say that I found the agency to be very sincere and honest.  If one uses an agency for introduction purposes, I see no abnormality in the starting point of a relationship or there being any fear of additional problems.  There are good and bad people inside or outside of agencies.  In fact, if an agency does any screening at all,the percentage of sincere women should be higher than a free site that does no screening at all.  Guys, this isn't brain surgery.  An agency gives you a concentrated data base of women looking for a foreign man, what you do with this data is up to you.  If some agencies have questionable ethics, use one that has a better track record.  Quite simple, really.
KenC

[Marc Dayton]

by Jooky

Are next event was in June with getting the LTP RW to attend the A-Web party in Tver this last June. We worked over time to impress A-web to have are RW at this party are count was 95 RW attended the A-Web party from LTP
-----------------------
By Marc

WOW I will say one thing for you, your a man who should be writing books as you can spin your own story out of nothing.

First we are not putting on the Party, second good or bad if you were paid to send RW to a party would you not do the Best job you can.

We did call girls an invite them to this party. Know if your a singel RW you get a call and are told they will have some men some food, and dancing. She then has a choice simple yes or No!

About these party's how they work is a well know fact. You put say 400 RW in a room, but to explain my point I am going to pot the top 100 RW on the right site of the room. Just the best woman

the other 300 RW on the left side of the room.

What do you do Jooky do you start on the right side of the room, like 99% of the men or do you go to the left side of the room?

Know when these men are on the right side of the room two things happen the girls of the left are not happy and what do you think they do JOOKY they cry poor me these men are nothing but broken down fools.  Dose this sound like your friend?

The second thing going on is in the right side of the room the better looking RW, There 20% of the girls getting most men after them the hot babes,

what do you think the nice looking girl are saying the same thing poor me these men are broken down fools.

Know get this JOOKY No RW is going to say it my fault they are going to say bad things about the man, and maybe the party so they can feel better about her self. No RW is going to say he didnot want me I don't want them they are all broken down bums!

Jooky be real when the ski falls. Its not my fault.

This is with spell check?

[Bruno]

This story of O sounds sOO familiar.. seems I heard a similar version quite a while ago.

Not fully the same story...

10/10/2006

...You like what you hear from Venus and Angel and you ask Venus " Venus, what are you going to charge these men for the opportunity to meet some of your fine ladies" and Venus replies back "twenty dollars" ($20).  So your four clients begin to look through the catalogs and on the computers for ladies who interest them....

...Client 2 tells you he has just got a call from Agency of Love and they have set up a meeting with one of your top choice ladies, but Venus has told you the price for a meeting is now $50, not $20 has she had said some three-four hours early....

01/07/2005

...I told Natalia that one of her local competitors was charging $25 per private meeting and could she do that. Natlalia shook her head yes and said "I think we can do that"...

...The rest of the day is going fine until at 4:45pm I get a call from one of the guys, "Jack, what happened to that $25 for private meeting with TverRomance?".  I ask him what's up? "Your suppose to pay $25 for any private meeting that can be arranged". He said that is what he thought but he had just got off the phone with Natalia and said each private meeting was $45...

So, in one year, some subtle change have happen in the story :
- In the old story, it is Jack who propose a price ( 25$ )... in the new story, the agency owner propose a price ( 20$ )...
- In the old story, the agency owner reply "i think that we can do that"... in the new story, the agency owner reply "twenty dollars"
- In the old story, the agency wish charge 45$... in the new story, the agency owner wish charge 50$...

I am not very good in English, so someone can explain me the difference between "i think that we can do that" and "we can do that"... for me, the first sentence is more like a "maybe"...

So, BC, i don't think that the new Oz story is similar to the other posted before... the first one can be a misunderstanding between two people, these one is about someone who don't respect his words...

PS: For people who post one story on the internet, try to post the same one everywhere... else, you will always find a a$$hole like me who will make some search and discover the differences... not very good for the credibility of the original poster of the story...

PS2 : Sorry Jack, nothing against you... i have the same behaviour with everybody  ... It is the result of a unfaithfull Russian wife who have make me very suspicious about all !!! Hmmm, if i stop with the jobof Gardener, i can maybe make detective 

For other, a game... seek the other differences ( use the link to original posts )... Ok, i give you one other...

In the Oz story, customer begin seek the ladies database only after having know the possible price... in the old story, 2 customer was already lurking RW sexy body on the computer database and the two other was concentrate on the screen when Jack have propose a price to the owner...

[jinx13]

Picture the opposite situation. Imagine a romance tour for men where you go to a hall for dinner and dancing with 50 other men and a handful of women. The men are for the most part young and fit. The women are on average 25 years older than the average man. Many of the women are overweight and physically unattractive. Many are socially inept.

I don't need to raise my hand and sign up to experience this.  I experience this every week!  This is the bar scene in Silicon Valley!!![/

 Sorry Jooky, but Two Bit hit the nail on the head here!    How many of us have been to a bar, or club in the U.S. where this situation seems VERY familiar?

 Most of the time when I have gone out with friends, to the local bars, and maybe some dancing, it's been about 3 to 1 men over women there. Yeah, there are some beautiful girls, but they are usually the younger ones, and they have plenty of guys in their 20's fighting for them. So what's left over? Hmmm, a lot "weight challenged" girls, or if you're lucky, a hot mom, or 'MILF' as we like to call em nowadays 

 So i guess in some way we are like those women attending socials, we just keep going, and hoping to "get lucky" although that term has a different meaning in the bar scene.    I remember my first time to a Russian club, and how it was the opposite, many more women than men, and almost all were thin, dressed to kill, and more approachable.

 Thank God I discovered Russian women, that's all I have to say...and thanks Two Bit for the good laugh, and the realization that we aren't so different from those Socials girls. 

[Jooky]

All,

Marc has dyslexia. If he types 'our' instead of 'are' or screws up his grammar spell check's not going to help. So give the guy a break.

Tim,

In your picking apart of my posts, how you could miss this?

I am not pinning the blame on you or anyone. I'm simply stating what I've learned, what I've heard and what I've seen. I've seen one too many guy get burned or just waste his cash and time on this 'venture', and I've heard mostly negative comments from the ladies involved.

Marc and Richard seem to run honest businesses. Tver Romance was accused of engaging in shady practices and that hasn't been refuted. Marc has been given incentive to engage in shady practices as well, but he doesn't seem to be doing so.

Still, there are factors beyond an agency's control and I listed those.

Tim, here's what I propose: That men and women get to know each other in person for months before they marry. Is that unrealistic? Here's what's unrealistic: Marrying a woman you hardly know. Marrying a woman you can't directly communicate with. Marrying a woman that clearly is not attracted to you.

Like av8or1, Dayton and others have said, I gotta disagree with all of your comments regarding agencies, at least in terms of blaming the agency "vehicle" itself for attracting the poor and bad and whatever other qualities you want to attribute to the women therein.

I did not blame these agencies, Marc did not refute what I'm saying or even disagree with most of it, he's just saying that all agencies are not the same and that there is good and bad everywhere. I agree with that. Marc stated himself that agencies attract poor women. I stated that there is nothing wrong with poor women. I've dated poor women in Russia. It does make dating more difficult.  Av8or got all worked up and told me to shut my noise over an analogy I posted in support of his decisions. I don't think he even read my long post about the risks of using agencies. So, Tim, what the hell have you been reading?

No I don't pity my friend. I don't pity the women. I don't pity the men. I don't pity myself when I got dumped twice in two different countries on the same day.  I figure you get what you've got coming. Take it and learn from your mistakes and learn from the mistakes of others.

I don't consider myself noble and definitely am not trying to be politically correct. You're off on that one. I do think all of us should be looking for a good match. That goes for the men and the women. I'm not participating in some 'process', and I don't believe that the trade off of cash for beauty, as Marc succinctly put it, is a good way to court a wife. There has got to me more than that.

I do try to advise men so that they don't waste their hard earned cash and limited vacation time to go on a blind date with an uninterested (but often hot!) woman. That's what usually happens. Marc can tell us, how many marriages come from his clients each year? How many clients end up empty handed?

Marc,

What story am I spinning? You admit to sending (I didn't say forcing) nearly 100 of your ladies to what you call a 'cattle drive'. Then you go on to describe how the pretty and the ugly women are separated. Yes, this is a cattle drive, it is demeaning to the women and your agency participates in it. Sure it appears good for the men, but a woman with self respect isn't going to keep putting herself in these situations.

Know when these men are on the right side of the room two things happen the girls of the left are not happy and what do you think they do JOOKY they cry poor me these men are nothing but broken down fools.  Dose this sound like your friend?

Marc, no this doesn't sound like my friend. Sure I agree that women will not blame themselves. They'll say 'there are no good men left'. 'All the good ones are taken'. 'Blah blah blah'. So what? American women say these things. Russian women say these things and most of us believe it. Men here say the same exact things about American women!

However you seem to insist as painting my friend as an ugly and jaded loser. She's not. She's happily married to a very decent, stable and talented young Russian man, so if she managed to land a good man in Russia (where they don't exist) she can't be half bad. She never whined about the agency situation, she was matter of fact about. Most of the men were not men she would consider dating and the few she would had their pick of the 'cattle'. The odds were not good for her at all. Worse than what she could find locally. She used an agency, found that it did not increase her odds of finding a good man, and she dropped it. Pretty damned simple. Many 'good' women are doing the same.

I do take the comment that I should be writing books as a compliment. English was my worst subject. 

Ken,

You found a lovely wife through an agency, but remember you found her what, seven year ago? Things are changing constantly in Russia. Agencies and the 'bride business' have been getting lots of negative press and word of mouth since you met your wife. It is becoming much easier for your average woman (I don't mean average looking) to meet prospects through other avenues that reach more men. Many more women have direct access to computers than they did years ago. Many women that would have considered using an agency years ago would not do so now.

Bandit, Jinx,

Yes, I had a good laugh too! I agree that the bar and nightclub scene around the San Francisco is nothing to brag about. Things are better in that respect in Russia for sure. In my graduate school days I lived in Boston for a while and travelled all over and for some reason there seemed to be an abundance of hot girls to meet in nightclubs everywhere but San Franciso. There were some in The City for sure, but many more elsewhere. Why? Why were were thus cursed? 

Realistically though, it ain't all that bad. Seriously the men to women ratio is not really 3 to 1, maybe 2 to 1 but probably more even than that. There are usually more men out than women, I agree, but they are no special competition. Certainly there are younger, better looking and in better shape men than me. No big deal. There are good looking women to be seen every time I've been out and there are plenty of heifers out as well. That's usual. The women are not on the average 20 to 30 years older than the men out, especially me! They are on the average, as is everyone out drinking, younger than me.

For me, I never liked the bar scene anywhere. Discos are alright and I've never had problems meeting women there, but usually they aren't the kind of women to take home to Mama. Honestly, the scene is not as bad as these romance tour socials are for Russian women.

All,

There are plenty of nice Russian women. Most Russian women do not use agencies. That is a fact. You can reach many more women through other means, so why limit yourself to one agency in one town? Av8or found some women that caught his eye on an agency site. That's alright, go and meet them. I wish him the best. But I don't see why he or anyone else would insist on using agencies and only agencies, especially after continous bad experiences. If I was Av8or and really needed a back up plan (which is not my actual approach) I would have lined up potential dates with women from other more general free and paid personal sites, ICQ and so on. Expand your search, don't limit it.

It's funny that the two guys promoting agencies, Tim and Av8or made similar comments about women that they've meet. Av8or has wasted his time on more than his fair share of gold diggers and so on and says that this trip couldn't possibly be worse than his past experiences. He's 'been there, done that'. Tim has met more women whose attitude was 'what the hell, why not' than he cares to remember.

I'll tell you my experiences. I've avoided agencies. I've communicated with around 200 Russian women from freepersonals, bride.ru, kiss.com, match.com and ICQ.

I encountered 1 scammer through match.com though I didn't know she was a scammer until about four years later when I was chatting with my friend, this scammer's childhood buddy. (I never did finish my story). She didn't try to scam me.

I encountered 1 scammer through kiss.com, but she admitted to me that she was a scammer and told me in detail what she was up to over the phone.

I encountered 1 pro dater through bride.ru who was booking up every single week with dates, some with other guys from these boards. This was her full time business.

I continue to receive junk scam letters from scammers constantly amongst the 400 or so spam mails I get every single day. My email is on every junk mail list imagineable, so whether my email was culled from a dating site or not I'm not sure. Probably, but these scam letters are easily tossed aside.

I met ten or fifteen of these women I contacted in person. Zero were gold diggers, green card girls, pro daters or women going on a date with me because they had nothing better to do. Not all took a liking to me (most did), but they were all sincere and good hosts. All devoted time to getting to know me. I've never been on a quick dinner interview date. I've never had a third party meddling in my affairs. I have no complaints! My experiences in Russia have been great adventures! If I felt that 'they couldn't be any worse' I would not be going back to Russia, ever.

So what are you guys doing wrong? 

[Marc Dayton]

I can't replie to all your crap, it would take 5 years for me to type it and to debate with you. I am out gunned when it comes to text so. I am just going to say you have the wright to say as you feel.

My writing is poor, and you just want to twist it to make your point. So have fun I hope you find what your looking for.

Its time for me to spend time working on the real things. Not on what this person or that person has told you.

Good luck

[Marc Dayton]

P.S. I

I do try to advise men so that they don't waste their hard earned cash and limited vacation time to go on a blind date with an uninterested (but often hot!) woman. That's what usually happens. Marc can tell us, how many marriages come from his clients each year? How many clients end up empty handed?
-----------------------------------------------

Any one who has been in my office would see many photos on the wall of Marriages.

So before you talk our your you know what? look around the post are full of marriages from LTP even my competitors  found there wife's in LTP Program. We stopped counting years ago the count was well over 500

So know you can spin that?

[TwoBitBandit]

TFF

Richard, what's that mean?

[Rvrwind]

Too F*****G Funny!!!

[andrewfi]

Tims ~ There are good reasons why the free websites are 'cleaner'.

1) They are usually based upon dating sites that do not face outward. They usually simply filter those people who express an interest in foreign guys.
2) Because there are no/limited services offered there is no financial imperative to milk the paying customers through translations, non-existent women, gifts etc.
3) Because there is a greater chance for a woman to contact an easy mark through an agency, then well, that is where they go. All, of course assuming the 'woman' one contacts through an agency exists.
4) Free services do not like having their services hijacked by agencies and so they make efforts to stop it. Most of the people on FRP or love.mail.ru etc are real people looking for dating, marriage, affairs, whatever. Whilst there are scams, just as on match.com and friendfinder, the sensible man can usually spot them.

One could go on. But you can solve the riddle for yourself if you think about it. My logic is not flawed. Just think it through and do some learning. Learning is the key.

Your lack of resources does not change the realities. It may be that for whatever reason you can not manage to do the job right, to build relationships with 'normal' women in normal circumstances as Jooky and I can. Wishing it were different does not make agencies better - they cater for mugs like you. To help your thinking, consider this metaphor:
Two bowls are left standing in the summer sunshine, one bowl contains sugar, the other contains nothing. Which bowl do you think will attract the most wasps? Think of yourself as the sugar.

[Jack]

....."So, BC, i don't think that the new Oz story is similar to the other posted before".....

ahhh, to RWD's little puppy dog Bruno, you are wrong again. But then as you are saying "I think" then you could in one aspect be offering your opinion and as such your opinion is your opinion but I can tell you that you are mistaken, again as is so often with your understanding and expression of the English language, when you try to indicate that the story of Oz is not similar to what I posted in 2005, a few weeks after my own personal experience with Tver Romance. The story of Oz "IS" similar Bruno, but NOT the same!

....."PS: For people who post one story on the internet, try to post the same one everywhere".....

But BRUNO, they are two different stories, their is a similarity yes, but they are two DIFFERENT stories. WHY should they be the same?  Because YOU want them to be the same? They were NOT intended to be the same story our poor little puppy dog Bruno. The story of OZ was meant to ask Mike15 what he would do in a similar situation as to what was expressed in the land of Oz. For whatever his reasons, although I think I know what they were, Mike15 elected not to reply as to what he would have done if the same situation had happened to him.

Bruno, the post from July of 2005 is a true story as to what had happened in Tver. Bruno I hate to be the one to tell you this, but their really was no Agency of Love, their really is no Venus, no Angel, no $20 meeting, no $50 meeting. And Bruno, I know you will find this hard to believe, and again I hate to be the one to tell you this, their is no land of Oz.

[Bruno]

Bruno, the post from July of 2005 is a true story as to what had happened in Tver. Bruno I hate to be the one to tell you this, but their really was no Agency of Love, their really is no Venus, no Angel, no $20 meeting, no $50 meeting. And Bruno, I know you will find this hard to believe, and again I hate to be the one to tell you this, their is no land of Oz.

No problem... if you wish, i have a other story from the land of Oz... a very old one... where a foreign agency owner meet a Oz lady in a cheap Oz fastfood... these guy is so cheap that Oz agency need to pay the bill...

J-a$$ has a gift of talking people into things - this very night, he talked my Oz manager xxx & his wife yyy to double date with him and some Oz girl he met. xxx is a nice guy and as many Oz people has a bit of a problem saying "No" to foreigners, but anyway, here's what he said happened. Him & yyy met J-a$$ & J-a$$'s date who was wearing a open evening dress. This girl was dressed to kill - probably spent her whole month's salary on that outfit. She was definitely looking forward to that evening - one of first times for her going out with a Western man. High hopes and all that. Where does J-a$$ takes her - you would not believe it - Kentucky Fried Chicken. yyy (xxx's wife) was so upset for the girl. And that's not all - when the check came - J-a$$ told the poor girl he expected her to pay her part of a $12 bill! xxx was so shocked - he paid for all 4 of them. No objections from J-a$$. xxx was thouroughly discusted & told me the whole story next morning.

I know a lot of strange story who have happen in the land of Oz... But it is only story, and the land of Oz don't exist... so, nobody will be hurt by my story...  ... since J-a$$ don't exist, my story is not a attack... Funny how we can go around rules on a forum !!!

[Jack]

Yes Bruno, it is easy to make up untrue stories and repeat them from the land of Oz. If you wish, I have a other story from the land of Oz... a very old one... where a foreign agency owner meet a young boy.

Did you hear the one about the ex-agency owner from Belgium? Bru-no-a$$ as the old story goes, was once married to a beautiful maiden from Belarus. Bru-no-a$$ at first showered his maiden with many gifts and much affection. But over time Bru-no-a$$ began to change. He became less and less interested in his maiden beauty and started having more interest in young boy's. One day while Bru-no-a$$ was entertaining a young Belgium lad his fair maiden walked in on him, caught him in a rather compromising act and the fair maiden ran from her castle crying. She ran all the way to the local sheriff's office where she filed a report. The sheriff and his deputies jumped on their horses and rode as quick as they could to catch the culprit Bru-no-a$$ with this young lad. But to no avail, upon arriving they could only find the sinister Bru-no-a$$ with no young boy and with no young boy, they could not jail or sentence the Bru-no-a$$.

But the fair maiden, she knew what she saw and she went to one of the best attorneys in all of Belgium and together the attorney and fair maiden cleaned out all of Bru-no-a$$ fortune. As a result, the agency that Bru-no-a$$ had also failed and thus he fell into the ranks of the ex-agency owners.

I know a lot of strange story who have happen in the land of Oz... But it is only story, and the land of Oz don't exist... so, nobody will be hurt by my story...     ... since Bru-no-a$$ don't exist, my story is not a attack... Funny how we can go around rules on a forum !!!