My first trip to Ukraine

[biggiejimmi2003]

Hello Group,
 
I took the plunge and just returned from Ukraine last week.  I will list a few things I learned and experiences I had.
 
I had read quite a bit on this web site before I went, and that was VERY helpful.
 
Just like one of the Commandments said, "Do not fall in love with a picture". The women are no different than us guys, they only post and send their best pics, both ladies I visited were quite pretty but probably did not quite match their "model" pictures I had seen.
 
Don't assume what they write in their letters will match their actions when you actually meet them.  One lady kept writing things like how much she looked forward to my visit, what we would do, how she couldn't wait to begin our lives together, etc.  Guess what, she knew for 2 months when I would arriving and she did not make arrangements to take even one day off work.  I had the honor of waiting 22 hours a day to spend 2 hours with her.  She was quite distant with me and it was obvious she was not interesting in being with me. After 2 days of that I took off.  I did have a back up plan and went to see the 2nd lady I had been writing.  She knew I was going to the other lady first and seemed to be ok with it...however when we met she made it clear she was pissed off that I had gone to see the first lady.  We seemed to work our way thru that and we had a decent time together.  At least she did take time to be with me and showed me around and talked with me.  However it seemed like it was a mini-vacation for her as we were always going to upscale resturants, touring Yalta by cab, etc. But I never felt she wanted to be close with me, she had me ride in the front seat of the cab while she and her daughter rode in the back.  The only time she was close to me was while taking a few pictures.  I was begining to wonder if I had B.O. or something.  What I have concluded is that these women have been burned before, one even told me they were sick of "sex-tourist".  Men who go from one woman to the next, which was not my intention at all.  I had really hoped that we would make a connection that would lead eventually to marriage.  I also realized these women are fairly happy with their lifestyle, not as desperate to leave their country as I may have thought.  They have their jobs, children, parents, friends, etc.  They are comfortable with what they have and a little worried about moving to a foreign country that is so much different from what they are used to.  No buses, trains or taxis where I live, you have to drive, no busy streets and herds of people.  That would be a major culture shock, also no Russian people to interact with. I think I thought they were more desperate to immigrate than what they were.
 
I suspect I went slightly out of my league too.  I should have concentrated on women closer to my age...I'm 47, they were both 30 and quite attractive.  I'm a nice looking guy, but I'm no Tom Cruise either.  If these women know nothing else, they know they're fine looking and no doubt get plenty of male attention.  I might go so far as to say they had slight Prima Donna attitudes.
 
Even though a lot of guys will say to have a back up plan, in hindsight I would only plan to meet one lady if I ever go again.  These women are not ignorant, they have seen the game men play and I do not want them to think I am playing games. I would also invest in international calling cards and call them many times before going, not just depend on email.  One gal said she didn't have a cellphone and would "rent one" while I was there so we could stay in touch.  Well as I learned, all the women have cellphones there and she did too.  So for whatever reason she didn't want me calling her on her personal cell before or while I was there.  That should have been a red flag, but I beleived she really didn't own one. Dumb American!  So many times I caught myself calling myself a dumb American. Like trying to use their phone system or payhones.  That will make you feel dumb, can't even use their crappy payphones, or local phone system.
 
I did get lucky and ran into a fellow American at the airport in Kiev.  We had both been bumped off our flight schedules and were re-booking at the Aerosvit ticket booth.  Turns out he was going on to Simferopol too so we buddied up.  Good thing because we were put on the last flight out and when we got to Simferopol the damn airport was closed!  No lights on, no staff, just dumped us on the tramac at 11pm, that was scary.  The Gypsy cabbies were coming at us from everywhere.  We finally picked one guy and he took us to Hotel Ukrainia and everything worked out, we even split a room for the night, but had I been alone I would have been terrified.
 
Long story short, too late for that I guess...but my advice to others would be...this is one big gamble, figure it might turn out to be just a regular tourist type vacation, don't count on the women being anything like you thought or hoped.  I wonder if they don't play power games with us men.  Just see if they can get us to come half way across the world, for some ego reasons or something. Do not expect these countries to be 1st world, they are not, 2nd world yes, 1st...no.
 
I have more thoughts but would be interested in what others think about my experience.  It was a learning experience, right about 4k worth!  If I ever do go again I won't be as niave, nervous or have high expectations.
 
Jim

[jb]

Hello, Jimmy,

Welcome to the RWD.

I'm sorry your trip went sour on you, but I gather you learned a lot in a short period of time.  That's a good thing.  If you have any specific questions about where things ran amuk, we have several married men here who will probably be able to set things to rights for you.

[Jack]

......"we have several married men here who will probably be able to set things to rights for you".....

Hey big Jim, and we have a few unmarried men who can help you as well. 

[jb]

Jack,

IIRC, you were married to a UW for a while.   

[Jack]

jb, the best seven years of my life.

[BC]

Great first post Jimmi and some good thought for others heading that way.  On one hand your experience seems to confirm some of the thoughts in the back of my head about women really wanting to leave their homeland -and how great this desire truly is.  OTOH you hit a quite small sample so who really knows their true reasons for the 'cold shoulder'.

How did you meet these two women?

I think overall you learned a lot as expressed in your last sentence.. - with 4k down a good 'bang for buck' value on a 'get your feet wet' tour.

Would probably have been more interesting if you had somehow built up some non-romantic local contacts before arriving.  Doing things among the locals can be quite fun and gives a greater perspective of life there.

[Albert]

I did have a back up plan and went to see the 2nd lady I had been writing.  She knew I was going to the other lady first and seemed to be ok with it...however when we met she made it clear she was pissed off that I had gone to see the first lady.    Men who go from one woman to the next, which was not my intention at all.  

I suspect I went slightly out of my league too.  I should have concentrated on women closer to my age...I'm 47, they were both 30 and quite attractive. 
 
Even though a lot of guys will say to have a back up plan, in hindsight I would only plan to meet one lady if I ever go again.  These women are not ignorant, they have seen the game men play and I do not want them to think I am playing games.

I have more thoughts but would be interested in what others think about my experience.  It was a learning experience, right about 4k worth!  If I ever do go again I won't be as naive, nervous or have high expectations.

- - - - - -

The above are quotes from Jim's report.

Jim, thanks for your interesting trip report.  You seem to have learned quite a few things, but I think you are still off in your overall analysis.

First, re your statement that on another trip you would only go to see one woman.  Quite an amazing statement in view of fact this new woman could turn out exactly as your first woman on the original trip.  So that would make you happy??  Or even if she acted like the second woman on your original trip.  You would be satisfied with that also??

You could swear over and over to a gal that she was the only one you were there to visit . . . . but she won't necessarily believe you and will treat you the same as she would another guy who was there to see 10 other women.

Second, you should never, never, ever, tell a woman that you are meeting another woman before you meet with her.  No one likes to think they are the second (or later) choice going in.  Jack can give you some advice on how to finesse these multiple meetings.

Third, you got it right about straying too far from your league.  You can trade up a bit (compared to AW) when interacting with these FSU women, but don't try to trade up too many notches.

[beattledog]

Jim

I have a question for you.  Why did you chose the Ukraine over Russian or any of it's former republics?  Have you thought about the Colombian women?

Beattledog

[Rim]

Have you thought about the Colombian women?

I think about all women, do you have any good prospects that you're handing out?

[Darth Vader]

Even though a lot of guys will say to have a back up plan, in hindsight I would only plan to meet one lady if I ever go again.  These women are not ignorant, they have seen the game men play and I do not want them to think I am playing games.

Hi, Jim.
Thanks for sharing.  The quote above caught my eye, and I'd like to comment on it.

But first, I have been to Ukraine and Russia a dozen times the past few years.  My search was successful and I learned a lot in the process, so I'd like to share a few tidbits with you.

Jim--you need to write more than two girls. Think about American girls.  How many do you meet where there is a strong attraction between both of you for each other?  It's quite rare, right?

And it's even more rare that you would write ONE girl from Ukraine, meet this ONE girl, and have great chemistry together.  Believe me, it's rare.  I wrote one girl for 6 months and on paper we were in love.  But after meeting, we both knew we were not a good match.

Here's what I advice you do.  Find a good agency (not in Tver)    Stick to Ukraine.  Having dated girls from both Russia and Ukraine, I find more differences among girls that I do the countries.  But Ukraine is cheaper to operate in and easier to get around in.

Write 10 girls over about a one month period.  After a month, get on the plane and go meet them.  As you meet them, if you come across a girl you REALLY like and she is REALLY into you, drop the other dates and spend all your time with this girl.  (and yes, unlike the girls you met on your last trip, they will take off work to be with you!)

That's my advice to you. If you would like some advice on good honest agencies, PM me.  My guess is about 10% are "honest," but none are perfect. There are degrees of honesty in all agencies.

And if your second trip is not successful, you will by then know enough about Ukraine and travel there that you can do your next trip without an agency.

Good luck!
darth

[biggiejimmi2003]

I went to Ukraine because it was easier to get into, no VISA, and it seemed there were plenty of beautiful women there.
 
Do the agencies use some professional daters?
 
I have thought about Columbia, it's much closer and cheaper but how safe is it?
 
Jim

[Gator]

Jim,

1.   There is no need to tell a woman that you are seeing other women.  Most women do not ask even though they assume you are (most men see multiple women and it is not a game). 
2.      A sincere, well-adjusted woman will want to use the time with you to evaluate compatibility.  A woman who is upset about other women is desperate, lacks confidence, or worst – is a controlling “suka”.
3.   I will admit that if a woman thinks you are coming to her city to see only her, she will be very nice to you (except in your case which I consider an exception).
4.   A backup plan does not have to be another woman with whom you have communicated.  The plan could be go to the local agency and work with them to schedule a few meetings.
5.   Personally, I think it is best to communicate with different women and go meet them after scheduling a couple days with each, and leaving a couple days open at the end of your trip to spend more time with your favorite.

[Darth Vader]

I went to Ukraine because it was easier to get into, no VISA, and it seemed there were plenty of beautiful women there.
 
Do the agencies use some professional daters?
 
I have thought about Columbia, it's much closer and cheaper but how safe is it?
 
Jim

Sadly, Jim--Yes, many agencies use "professional daters."

PM me and I will tell you how to detect and avoid them.

-Darth

 Multiple ID's

[groovlstk]

Here's what I advice you do.  Find a good agency (not in Tver)    Stick to Ukraine.  Having dated girls from both Russia and Ukraine, I find more differences among girls that I do the countries.  But Ukraine is cheaper to operate in and easier to get around in.

Just my two bits, but with the Russian economy quite a bit stronger than the Ukrainian economy, you're more likely to encounter girls who are desperate to improve their lot in Ukraine than in Russia. I realize this is a very general statement, but I've been to Ukraine and Russia eight times in the past 1 1/2 years and I've experienced it firsthand.

If you're looking for a girl who's primary short-term goal is to leave her country, you might want to rethink your strategy because you will attract the wrong type of girl. This wrong type of girl makes the professional daters you encountered in Kiev look like Mother Theresas. In your TR, you seem disappointed that the girls aren't so desperate to leave their country. Think about this, please: A girl desperate to leave her country will accept your marriage proposal if she trusts you to a certain extent, even if she doesn't love you. What do you think will happen a year after she arrives in America, when she's comfortable with the language and culture, has a job, etc., and she notices that, unlike in her native country, the men here drool all over her and treat her like she's a celebrity? And remember, she doesn't love you... What do you think she'll do?

Another thing you should consider: If you live in a rural area, don't search the Kievs and Moscows for a girl. Find a girl from the provinces who will not expect to live a cosmopolitan lifestlye.

[SANDRO43]

PM me and I will tell you how to detect and avoid them.

Wouldn't it be worth telling everybody ? You could open a new "Pro-daters" thread in "Scammers & Suspect Agencies".

[Admin]

Sadly, Jim--Yes, many agencies use "professional daters."

PM me and I will tell you how to detect and avoid them.

-Darth

Information on detection and avoidance of dreaded PD's would be helpful to many.

Maybe post them to the board?

- Dan

[Darth Vader]

Information on detection and avoidance of dreaded PD's would be helpful to many.

Maybe post them to the board?

- Dan

Ok, I can do that.  But of course it's just my opinions.

I think I will start a new link so I won't take away from Jim's Trip Report.  This looks like a group that likes to "discuss" opinions, so I'll do it at:

http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=2797.msg52790#msg52790

[FSUrookie]

Very good and helpful information!

[Mir]

I have met about 6 Russian and 5 Ukrainian women over the last 5 years (I mean more then just casual acquaintance).
I have never used an agency and all were from friendfinder.com or icq.
Some traveled to Cyprus (before they joined EU it was a great place to meet Russian girls), Prague or Budapest for the meetings.
My first trip to FSU was to Kiev in July 2004 and I loved the experience. I have since been to Ukraine 7 or 8 times traveling to places like Lviv, Odessa and Crimea.
I am surprised that this was your first trip and you had not made any arrangements like a driver picking you up at the airport and a booking of an apartment etc.

[ScottinCrimea]

When I made my first trip to Ukraine to meet my future wife, I made sure that I had all hotel reservations made and an English speaking driver to meet me at every stop and see that I got where I needed to go.  I didn't want to find out that I had been stood up or that we didn't get along and find myself stuck in a country where I didn't know the language or my way around.  I figured that way if things didn't work out, I could at least have an enjoyable, problem free vacation.  She respected the fact that I took responsibility for myself and didn't have to depend on her.  That's one thing different about Ukrainian women.  They expect you to take the lead and make the decisions on where to go and what to do.  Here, men make the social plans and the women go along.  If you constantly defer to the woman to make these decisions, you are perceived as weak, not accomodating.  If they ask you where you want to go, never say, "whatever you want is fine."  They don't like indecisive men.