Group Tour or Go Alone?

[Gator]

Turbo is concluding an interesting TR.   I made a post that grew and could have become a distraction, and in fact a reader said such.  So I am deleting it from Turbo’s TR and staring a new thread. 

In my opinion a group tour does not compare with going alone and working with a local agency:

1.   A group tour is much more expensive.
2.   The women you meet on a tour are not as well aligned with your individual preferences.
3.   The meeting environment is not friendly to the women.
4.   Living in a hotel rather than an apartment is not as comfortable.
5.   Women do not like visiting men at hotels yet feel relaxed in an apartment.
6.   The experience with the local scene is sheltered and distant, missing the sense of adventure one should relish if one wants to marry a Russian woman.

Disclaimer:  I have never been on a tour, but heard plenty of negative comments from several women (the ones who we are trying to attract and please).

[Gator]

Turbo responded that the cost per contact is less for a group tour.  I disagree, and offer the following: 

I do not know what Turbo paid, but the cost of an AFA 11-day, two-city tour to Ukraine = $2895 (land only).  The package includes:

-  Three socials, and a man could meet 10 women each social = 30 women.  Yet, how many of these would he have selected from the catalogues?  How many are professional “partygoers”?  In Turbo’s case he did some pre-selection and I like that aspect.  However, I note only four women at his table at one social.  Can we assume an average of 20 women for the trip (which is a lot of women)?

-  Clean hotel but not equal to Motel6. 

-  A second city.

-  Also, daily brunch (canned juice), transfers, 24-hour hospitality, and city tour.


In contrast, the individual trip:

-  Meeting women:  Meeting fee ($15) + Interpreter (2 hours @ $5/hr + tip) + Café/Coffee Bill ($20 average) = $50 each meeting.  With careful planning, one can meet up to 5 women per day.  I think this is too many, and I would suggest 2-3 per day, reserving some time for follow-up dating.  In contrast to a social, these women are pre-selected by you, the meeting time is longer (2 hours or whatever you choose), and the environment is friendly to the women (one-on-one).  This will yield meetings with 20 pre-selected women = $1000. 

-  Apartment ($50/night) = $500.   Roomy, comfortable and inviting.  Many include washer and most have irons to make a man’s clothing look great.

-  Brunch:  Buy good food such as fresh juice in supermarket. At $10/day = $100 total.

-  Transfers/Hospitality:  This can get tricky on your own, but the agency will meet you at the airport/train station.  The interpreters will gladly help you with any requests. $100 total.

-  Visit Second City:  Interpreter will help you buy train/bus tickets or negotiate with a taxi.  $100 for private driver.

-  Tour:  The women who like you will proudly show you their city.  Free.

-  Other:  Buy a mobile phone (absolutely necessary to communicate and coordinate with agencies/women).  $100 (go cheap).


Total cost = $1900 vs. $2895 with AFA.  AFA will probably save you some money on air tickets via group sales.

The one point that will concern many men is that no one is holding your hand.  With the moderate assistance and guidance available through the agency and its interpreters, anyone with common sense can maneuver through the maze.  If someone insists upon a tour for fear of a foreign land, he should stay home because he does not have the adventurous spirit necessary to marry a Russian woman.

[Gator]

Finally, Russian women like real men.  They are impressed by someone who can make his own way through their difficult country.  They know it is not easy.

[catzenmouse]

Gator,

 Thanks for starting this thread. I have never been on a tour either but what I see as benefits/detractors are:

 1. For someone who has never been to the FSU it is a way to "get your feet wet" without having to go it alone or trust an agency that you don't know. (yes, you can also say that you don't really know the tour agency as well)

 2. You would get to see several different cities and meet quite a few women. This IMO is a good/bad situation. Good is lots, bad is that you don't really get a chance to know any of them very well.

 3. If you meet a couple that you like in a similar area it will make it easier for your next trip to get further acquainted with them. Good geographically speaking. If you meet one in St. Petersburg that you like and one in Odessa that you like it makes your next trip very inconvenient logistically.

 4. Safety in numbers - good for a newbie. Not really getting a feel for the FSU and the people outside of the tour circle - bad for really understanding anything about the lady that you are thinking about having for your life partner.

Ken

[Vaughn]

Open question: is there a general policy in these tours that requires a man stay with the tour group until the entire tour is completed?
Somehow I recall Jack or Kevin stating such, but I could be wrong. 

[Albert]

Gator estimates $2,896 for tour vs $1,900 for working with agency.

There is a third alternative which I always do.  Contact gals only through free internet sites or those match sites that charge a monthly fee of $20-30.  In this third alternative, the cost would be less than $1,000.

[viking]

Went alone 3 times. A stranger in a strange land.

In hindsight, I should have gone on a tour like Turbo, learn the ropes, ask a thousand questions (and get answers), meet a bunch of women and see how they act and react so I could judge better. I'm a bit of an adventurer so going alone was never a problem. But if I had been on a tour of some kind before hand, IMHO, some of the women I met I would have dismissed early on and saved myself some grief. I would have looked at things in a different perspective, brought more to the table FOR THEM, and more able to cut through the chaff to get to the wheat.

I don't think the exact cities matter that much. Its really the experience of getting on the plane, having some people you know with you to help lessen the dead moments, not having to worry about what to do because most of it is planned, getting to know the turf, some culture, and whats a no-no and a yes-yes.

If it is a reliable tour, go for it.

[Gator]

Albert, good point! 

I have tried this method too.  It is really going alone as one shuns agencies and their assistance.  One must depend upon the honesty and enthusiasm of the women you select, and I was not disappointed once.  Of course, the women need to speak English (or you Russian).

[wendaaaal]

Interesting thread going on here. I'd have to say my experience is more like Viking's than anyone else. I've done multiple trips on my own (3 to Russia, 6 to Ukraine). I've obviously made some mistakes, as I still haven't "landed"  the girl of my dreams.
 I'd done a lot of travel before I went to the FSU for the first time, so that part wasn't too hard for me to figure out. Separating the good, true, marriageable ladies remains the hard part.
 Perhaps the whole process becomes a little more transparent in a group setting. Is it easier to pick out the "problem girls" in such a setting? Do you feel you have more of a "support system"? More terps, more guys to bounce your thoughts off of? I don't know, perhaps.
Then, if you meet a good one  , will you have enough time to really get to know each other? I think not. If you are able to quickly do a "follow up" trip, as Turbo seems to be planning, maybe that could work, too. It seems he has a lot of ladies he wants to "follow up" with. So, in that sense he might have more to work with than those doing an individual trip. I've done "follow up" trips after some of my individual trips, but usually only to see one lady.
 I avoided group tours as they seemed pretty "seedy" ("dodgy" as Ste would say! ), especially for the ladies. It seems that Turbo's experience wasn't nearly as bad as I'd feared. So, it seems there could be some merits to the group tours after all.
 Wendell in Austin

[PeeWee]

Gator estimates $2,896 for tour vs $1,900 for working with agency.

There is a third alternative which I always do.  Contact gals only through free internet sites or those match sites that charge a monthly fee of $20-30.  In this third alternative, the cost would be less than $1,000.

Albert, you have heard it said, "You get what you pay for."  The less that you spend the less for your money that you will get. It just works that way. In my opinion the tour is the least costly of the three. That because the one thing that a tour can give you that no other method can is organization. A planned process that targets specifically what it is that you hope to achieve.

Let's say that you have spent $1,000.00 to find a woman via a $20.00 per month venue. You spend a few weeks contacting her, she does not meet you need for whatever reason so you move on. Multiply the by 5 and you are now several months into the search and you have yet to leave the comfort and the security of your living room couch. In the meantime a guy like Turbo is gone and back and has narrowed his persons of interest to two or three and he is busy communicating and planning his second trip. You're gonna spend 3k or more no matter how you approach it so why not cut to the chase, as they say, and make the tour schedule and be miles ahead of the rest.

Another way to look at this is to know that you are ahead of the pack if you make the tour. By this I mean you have met the woman in person that 10 other guys have only written to and have yet to travel to meet her. Are you not the front runner in that race simply by being there? How much is that worth if she is indeed the one that you think is the hottest thing this side of Katmandu?

Peewee

[PeeWee]

Gator estimates $2,896 for tour vs $1,900 for working with agency.

There is a third alternative which I always do.  Contact gals only through free internet sites or those match sites that charge a monthly fee of $20-30.  In this third alternative, the cost would be less than $1,000.

Also, when did this process ever become "Find a Woman on a Budget", anyway? Budget money and mentality will only get you a bargin basement lady.

Peevee

[Turboguy]

I don't have a lot of time to post now but will add more tomorrow.   Right now I have to get to sleep and get an early start. 

I have done three tours similar to AFA and would not recommend them to anyone.   Biggest waste of money and time that you could have.  I will post more about this tomorrow assuming I have internet access in my hotel.

With Jack's tour, to be honest I met more good candidates than I did in my 10 years and multi trips put together.   The whole thing, air, terps, meeting & tour probably set me back $ 6000.00  Still if I had better results than I had in my other trips, lets say 15-17 trips not counting the ones to see Luda that would mean spending $ 6000 here had better results than spending $ 100,000 other ways.  Seems cheap to me. 

I did 4 cities, 4 parties on Jack's tour and the cost was $ 1995 Ea.   There are a lot of other costs.  It isn't cheap but results are more important than price.   Hotels and transfers are not included but the hotels were nice and $ 40-60 a night.   Transfers averaged about $30.00

[Todd]

I find comparing Group Tour vs. Go It Alone to be missing a couple of important comments.

1.  First one must factor in the differential time spent in any calculation.  As an contractor, I can
use my daily billing rate after tax as a guide to how much this time is worth.  If Going it Alone requires
an additional 40 hours of up front time, it might not be such a great deal.

2.  One should begin with the end mind.  If the ultimate objective is to meet the woman of your dreams,
how does this one trip move you further down this path?  I would argue that if several trips are planned,
then different approaches and geographic locations should be tried.

3.  Don't forget that this is a vacation.  Which approach will you have the most fun doing?  I believe that when
someone is having fun and relaxed it greatly increases the chances of meeting someone.

4.  Finally, if a $1,000 cost differential excites you or factors into your decision, then looking overseas for someone probably isn't for you.  Plan on budgeting $20-30K when all is said and done prior to the wedding.  (This number might be less in Europe; I'm mainly talking from my US centric cost PoV.

Does anyone disagree on these points?

Todd

[Albert]

Pee Wee and Todd.  You both seemed to have totally missed the gist of my post.  I was simply taking Gator's original post and showing a third way that cost $1,000, using his numbers.

This has nothing at all to do with trying to find a cheap wife.

Suppose we are all trying to find a flight to Moscow.  One guy reports he found for $3,000, another reports $2,000 and another reports $1,000.  Does this mean a person is a cheapo if he chooses to pay $1,000 for the same flight that others pay up to $3,000 for?

And Pee Wee I have a never ending surprise at your insistence that you get what you pay for.  I have cited examples before where this is simply not true.  OK, let me try again.  One guy pays full airfare of $1,500 for tourist class ticket on airplane.  Another goes online and buys same tourist class ticket for $800.  Now where does your logic that 'you get what you pay for' apply here.

[Todd]

My only point is to factor in the full costs of not only the immediate trip but also the cost of time upfront and the costs AFTER the trip.  Such things as the plane ticket SHOULD be minimized or eliminated as they do not impact the outcome in anyway.  For example, I've used miles for all my and Kate's trip back and forth (or have elected to fly coach back from the Middle East and see her enroute.) 

Todd

[Turboguy]

I think there are some good points here but I have to think for most of us the real cost is measured in days not dollars. I am lucky that I can get more free time than many but I still need to use my time effectivly and to get the end result I want as quickly as I can without sacrificing caution and proper procedures.

[Gator]

Let's say that you have spent $1,000.00 to find a woman via a $20.00 per month venue. You spend a few weeks contacting her, she does not meet you need for whatever reason so you move on. Multiply the by 5 and you are now several months into the search and you have yet to leave the comfort and the security of your living room couch.

This is an indecisive man.  Be decisive: select a city, write a few women (or not), contact one or more agencies and get on a plane.  Six weeks maximum calendar time and less than $100 in correspondence fees.

You are ahead of the pack if you make the tour. By this I mean you have met the woman in person that 10 other guys have only written to and have yet to travel to meet her. Are you not the front runner in that race simply by being there?

Yes, but there is no difference if one is decisive. 

It (group tour) isn't cheap but results are more important than price.

Agree, but $1000 can not be ignored.  It can go a long way to enhance results.

If Going it Alone requires an additional 40 hours of up front time, it might not be such a great deal.

A group tour requires the least  preparation.  And one easily could spend an additional 40 hours in preparing to Go Alone.

...for most of us the real cost is measured in days not dollars

I contend that once in country the time is the same, perhaps even less with Going Alone because one has more flexibility.

[Turboguy]

This is an indecisive man.  Be decisive: select a city, write a few women (or not), contact one or more agencies and get on a plane.  Six weeks maximum calendar time and less than $100 in correspondence fees.

Why not just use something like free personals and save the $ 100.00 per woman.  10 women and you have the $ 1000.00 that you feel can not be ignored.

Yes, but there is no difference if one is decisive. 

Sorry I don't quite understand your point on this one.   You are saying if you are decisive but have not met her it is the same as meeting her and not being decisive or what do you mean?

Agree, but $1000 can not be ignored.  It can go a long way to enhance results.

If that is a significant amount of money to someone they might want to stay to American women.  Of course the $ 1000.00 could get you two cities on one of Jack's tours and that could enhance your results. 

A group tour requires the least  preparation.  And one easily could spend an additional 40 hours in preparing to Go Alone.

I probably had 40 hours of preparation for Jack's tour.  I had to look through more than a 1000 profiles on 12 web sites to pick the ones I wanted to meet.  Of course the large agency tours require no preparation.
 
I contend that once in country the time is the same, perhaps even less with Going Alone because one has more flexibility.

I think I disagree with you here.  You have a staff planning the effective use of your time, arranging your travel, co-ordinating the agencies, arranging for interpreters, arranging your hotels,   Since you would meet 10 times as many quality women and don't have to fool with the nuts and bolts of your travels, to me it is the better program and best use of your time.   You can always stay in country after the tour and visit the one or two that you really thought were special.

[PeeWee]

If one was to say, take a hunting safari to Africa. You have never hunted in Africa. Would you hire a guide or go it alone? Do you think that your chances of bagging the trophy cat or whatever would be greater with or without a guide? The tour has its merits because your chances of meeting more women who are sincere about finding her mate in a shorter period of time than if you pluck one at a time from the Internet, or whereever.

Peevee

[Turboguy]

Makes sense to me PeeVee but the cat you bag on an African Safari might be tamer than the one you bag in the FSU if you are not careful.

[Turboguy]

It seems to me that a lot of what we are saying here is just opinions that don't have much to back them up.   I just read Jerry's TR using Kherson Girls who is a first class agency.  I think a lot of guys do as he did and use one agency for their apt, terps, transfers and gals.   I think that is one of the big plusses for the tours like Jack does.  In my 4 city tour we used about 14 sources of gals picking the cream of the crop.  Yes, you can go to a city and use more than one agency but I think a lot of people don't. 

[PeeWee]

An alternative to the Turbo Tour is that which was depicted in the movie A Foreign Affair. A damn funny movie to be sure. Yet if I recall the movie had some input, if not the blessing, if the AFA agency. My idea of a tour parallels that of what I see in the movie. It sounds as if the Turbo Tour is much different in both structure and in result. Either way it's a meet and greet. A sort and court. Or whatever else you want to call it. It's much akin to a living breathing catalog or website venue. So this tour would be an effective and effecient tool for that fellow who used that tool in a proper way.

Peewee

[Gator]

PeeWee,

If I were shooting (photos I hope) large animals in Africa I would use a guide.  I would not go hunting with 20 other men however.  And I would not enjoy a “trap, release and shoot” setting.  And if I had sighted a trophy cat and was on its trail, I would not stop to go shoot antelope just because the guide said they were next on the list. 

[Gator]

A REAL EXAMPLE - LOUIE AND HIS 50 WOMEN

Turbo,

You and I are not communicating, yet I feel we both are trying.  That happens a lot on these confabulated boards.

I agree that your tour is a valid method to meet women.  I say that because Jack’s tour preselected women meeting your preferences, much better than the typical tours in which men depend upon “potluck” socials.   

My point is that alternatively one can go alone and meet the same number if not more preselected women than on a tour.  Plus the initial interview is more “woman friendly”, facilitating a better start.

You probably will take exception to my statement that the number of women is the same, especially after saying you met 10x more.  Thus, I have one real example of a “go alone, agency supported tour”.  It is an extreme example (not one I would do) but true nevertheless.

My real example - While in agency office, I met a man waiting for his date.   Louie from SoCal (Louie, are you here dude?).  Interesting man, handsome, 40s, personable, energetic, and self-reliant.  He came without any prior correspondence with any woman.  He arrived with a long list of women screened from the profiles of three different agencies in the city.  He went from agency to agency and asked them to arrange meetings, starting at the top of his list and working down.

In 9 days he claimed he met almost 50 women for a total cost of $750 (excluding terp).  Each meeting lasted 60-90 minutes, was conducted in a woman-friendly, one-on-one manner (not in front of other women).  He asked personal questions, chatted and laughed with each to assess “chemistry” and select a few for followup dating.

50 women seems too many, yet I saw him two times hustling around the city as if interviewing students at a job fair.  Each of Louie’s 50 or whatever women had been preselected according to his requirements/preferences (maybe he just looked at age and photo, I do not know).  Further, the agency when calling the woman was able to describe Louie and assess whether she was sincerely interested.

I see no difference between the “quality” of Louie’s women and the women preselected by you on Jack’s tour.  My question - does a man on a 9-day tour meet 50 quality women and spend 60-90 minutes with each in a woman friendly environment?

[Darth Vader]

Actually, Gator--I think Turboguy is correct in your argument with him.

Tours allow you to visit multiple cities, while still pre-screening and writing girls in advance.  You meet lots of girls from half a dozen cities.  You find out which ones you like the best, then follow up on your next trip.

Tours save valuable time for the busy businessman.  If you can't afford the tour, then go it alone and just visit one city.

But for the man who has money, your argument is like "which do you like best for desert, apple pie or ice cream?"   I'll take both