spouse or fiancee ?

[Shadow]

Want to bring a totally dependent live-in girlfriend to date and have around the house while you decide whether or not she is good enough to stay?  Even in Bruno's case the Belgian government seems to require either marriage or cohabitation agreement (similar to common law marriage) within 6 months..  I wonder what would happen if his GF decides to stay but not with Bruno?..  I'm sure a part of the paperwork he is filling out lists his obligations should this happen.

Are governments simply saying "Look before you leap!", and maybe "Look a second and maybe third time before..."?

To all those still looking I can only say: Find a woman that will follow you to the end of the earth or be ready to follow her. Anything less is just a dating game.. one your government is certain not to support.

(playing devil's advocate)

As Belgium follows the same basics as Holland I can answer the question for Bruno. When the D Visa runs out it has to be renewed. The applicant (the girlfriend) is the on re-applying. If she can prove a relationship with a different person who signs th sponsorship document and has enough income, the visa can be granted based on the new boyfriend.
If she decides to run in to illegal status, Bruno will be responsible for the cost of deportation. In the Netherlands for a max amount of Eur 10.000 per year. The cost runs from Eur 5.000 to Eur 25.000 depending on circumstances.
Usually the 'jumpers' do not take the risk of changing the sponsorship of temporary visa and will wait the 3.5 years. Enough time to get a good job in case it is not possible to find an upgrade.

[Bruno]

As Belgium follows the same basics as Holland I can answer the question for Bruno.

And you have make it good  almost ...

When the D Visa runs out it has to be renewed. The applicant (the girlfriend) is the on re-applying. If she can prove a relationship with a different person who signs th sponsorship document and has enough income, the visa can be granted based on the new boyfriend.

The D visa run at maximum for 6 month... after these 6 month, if we are living together, she receive a "white card" valid for one year and who can be renew 3 time... if the foreign is with a new boyfriend and that these new boyfriend fill a "Verbetennis tot tenlastemming", a new procedure is started at the Belgium foreign office... usually, it give a negative result since evidence that the relation last from minimum one year is needed... so, not really possible to make a upgrade...

Tijdelijk verblijf van 3,5 jaar afhankelijk van samenwoonst : De eerste 3,5 jaar hangt het verblijfsrecht van de samenwonende vreemde partner  volledig af van het instandhouden van de relatie. Beslissen beide partners uit elkaar te gaan vóór het einde van deze periode, zal de vreemde samenwoner zijn verblijfsrecht verliezen, en wordt hij dan ook geacht terug te keren naar zijn herkomstland.

If she decides to run in to illegal status, Bruno will be responsible for the cost of deportation. In the Netherlands for a max amount of Eur 10.000 per year. The cost runs from Eur 5.000 to Eur 25.000 depending on circumstances.

Not really some fixed amount here...

Indien de vreemde partner een uitwijzingsbevel krijgt (op de wijze hierboven beschreven), zal de partner die de tenlasteneming ondertekende toch nog voor de resterende duur van 3,5 jaar gehouden zijn de kosten van de terugkeer of van een eventuele gedwongen repatriëring op zich te nemen! Ook voor de ziektekosten en de kosten van levensonderhoud blijft de tenlastenemer aanspreekbaar.

Guys, in any case, a marriage is planned for when she will be in Belgium... simply a problem of language on the document for the marriage bring some delay... the full dossier is on the federal level, where they accept official translation in Dutch, German, French and English... the full dossier is in English... one document was needed from the city administration but they have refuse to make it since they don't understand the english of the federal dossier... The ministery of intern affair have write to the city administration to accept these document but they refuse since a regional law say that administration cannot accept foreign language... my Belgium birth act who was in French was refused too since for them, French is not a official language from the Flamish regio...

And yes, i forget to say, the guys who have make all these problem is from the "Vlams Belang" party... a racist and fasciste party... i have consult a advocat and he say that we certainly win due to procedure error... unfortunaly, the proces can take 2-3 years... since i don't wish wait so much for be together with my girlfriend, i use these method of the visa D... and in any case, i will send her document for two other method... she will be in Belgium in 2007...

PS: Belgium have copy these method from Holland... It is other country who are able to use these system ?

[BC]

BC (and jb), I would love to agree with you 100%.... but I can't.

Ideally, the decision of marriage could be made solely on love, trust, and believe in your potential spouse.  But a bond of just the heart is only half as strong as it needs to be.  It also has to be a bond that's made with the rational, thinking mind, and not just the emotional, subjective heart.

Conner, here you seem to be describing only half of the equation, emotional bond + rational thought..  On the other side there should be the big responsibility factor that many seem to overlook.
 
In purely logical sense:

emotional bond + rational thought= (responsibility partner1 + responsibility partner2)

In this equation both sides should be balanced.  the important part is the right side that basically says that if my partner is less responsible in the matter then I have to be more responsible to keep things balanced.  If my partner was a scammer and had 0 responsibility I have to make up the difference which is equal to consequences.  We shouldn't expect a government or taxpayers to pick up the tab by screaming 'but... I got scammed!'.  In fact we should be fully liable.

In my case, when I proposed to Natalya, her answer was, "Yes.........maybe."  For even though she would have unequivocally chosen to marry me and relocate to the USA, she needed to see what environment she was going to bring her (then) 5 y.o. son into.  Certainly a rational, objective decision, as she had never been to the USA and experienced it first hand.

If my wife, or daughter (who followed on) had so much trouble accepting conditions here I would have faced moving to RU to be together with them.  Although remote, I was prepared to make this decision. This scenario though did not happen as other equations also play their role.. My wife could have insisted on moving back and I would have accepted this but on the other hand we knew that we would likely have quite a difficult time once savings ran out on us. In the end though, as long as living conditions are 'as advertised', there should be little if any disappointment or risk of tipping the scales.

If we are talking about a real, equal marriage, where both husband and wife make decisions and contributions towards improving family life each day, how could any foreign woman decide for certain that they would be able to fulfill their equal half of the proposition?  It is not a question of planning a "fire exit route" but rather determining if both people involved will be happy where they decide to put down roots.  Unhappy spouses usually make for unhappy marriages.

As above... you would have had to fill in and find ways to make her happy or otherwise make up for the imbalance.  In the end a couple usually just have to do what they have to do under the circumstances and make the best out of them.  I remember quite well on a few occasions where my dad came home and said:  "Honey.. we're going to Germany.. or Turkey, or Panama, or Puerto Rico, or Italy, or Spain...  In other words, life is full of surprises and you just gotta deal with them.

For foreign spouses, it is another hardship that domestic relationships typically never bear.  How often does it happen that two people meet in, let's say, Los Angeles, have a relationship there, decide to marry, then move back to the husband's home in Chicago, where the newlywed bride has never been or seen?

For the US couple, it is likely they will move to the home of the major breadwinner.  Heck I think it probably happens more often than one might think.. even both moving together to a new city or state they have never been for a good job offer.. Yes, you have a point, but I consider being able to go to one's future home a luxury and not necessarily a necessity. As a military brat I guess I'm used to it. A one way ticket from west to east coast is around 350 bucks, easily booked online with her credit card.. even if it is just to get home to 'mama' if things don't work out or another 'safe' place to re-evaluate a relationship lull.  Language, customs, ability to work legally, make such moves quite possible and at reasonable risk. The foreign partner however has basically nothing to hold on to or depend upon at all except her mate - in most cases not even a piece of plastic.. yes that is a difference. If she is holding on to a solid trunk there should be no problem - if she is holding on to a twig then.. well...

I'm sure someone will find a hole in my math, but that's quite ok.. we're dealing with quantum stuff anyway.. but there is one factor that practically no one can argue with:

There is no excuse for a bad choice!

[ConnerVT]

BC I see your points, but they don't completely address the issues I brought up.  I agree it is BOTH parties responsibilities.  And each issue doesn't need to be in 50/50 balance.  Rather, it just needs to complement each other to a satisfactory level.  Those married here understand how much the responsibility swings in both directions.   

My wife's answer of "Yes.....maybe," endeared me even more to her.  For it showed me that she was a thinking, rational partner.  That she was looking forward to her contribution to a happy family.  That she was a caring and protective mother.  All of these things are very important to me.

Would I have moved to Russia?  My biggest concern would have been can I uphold MY responsibilities.  Here in the USA, I am the major breadwinner of the family.  My lack of Russian language skills would of hindered me to maintain that role.  Also raising a small boy whom Russian, not English, would be his primary language would make it difficult for me to maintain the 'alpha dog' status that helps keep our household peaceful, and is helping him grow into a fine young man.  So as much as my heart would pull me to Russia, for the good of the family, we could not have begun our family relationship that way.

Now that we are established?  Similar to when your dad was reassigned to a new station, I think it could be done by our family.  There would certainly be hardship, but I believe in my family enough that we would persevere.

I'm not sure I understand your logic in your last argument.  The woman in LA has the opportunity to see Chicago and make a choice.  I could not think of her not hopping on a flight and checking things out.  If she chose not to, her lack of interest (or blind acceptance) would be at least a yellow flag to me.

[Bruno]

...but there is one factor that practically no one can argue with:

There is no excuse for a bad choice!

Hello BC, i am here 

like you wrote, "we're dealing with quantum stuff anyway"... i agree with you that somebody making a bad choice, knowing it was bad is guilty... stupidity, or lack of knowledge are not a excuse...

But what when it is the other side who lie, who make everything is possible for show a good face and only reveal the inner evil when it is too late...

I have make a bad choice with my first marriage... sometime, i was blinded or stupid... and in so case, i am guilty... but mainly, from the first day of our acquintance until when she have receive her "green card" ( really green in Belgium  ), all was in the norm in our relation, not fully perfect since perfection don't exist...

I'm sure someone will find a hole in my math, but that's quite ok...

I will simple modify it a little... emotional bond x rational thought= (responsibility partner1 x responsibility partner2)... simply change the "+" by a "x"... if the responsability of one partner reach "0"... the result will always be zero... maybe you can add parameter like cheating or lies...

Really, if a magic equation was existing for happiness, i think that everybody will be happy... relationship follow more chaos law... we can predit a infinity of result but can never know what will be the final result and the way used for reach so result...

The "There is no excuse for a bad choice" is generally used by people who never take decision... in a couple, decision need to be made, choice appear... not making a choice don't allow you to evolve... people learn from how mistake too... and during a full life, everybody make bad choice since nobody is perfect, nobody is able to predict the result of all these choice...

BC, some quote for reflexion :

draw a distinction between choice (implying almost-random selection) and a decision

[username33]

Don't get me started BC 
I'm all for the marriage requirement SO LONG AS the prospective wife is allowed into her prospective husband's country to see what it's like beforehand - a luxury not afforded so manny FSU fiancees  :burnedup: by our current regime.

Good point. It makes me think of the fiancee visa in a whole new way.

[Jet]

Jet,

In effect what difference would it make if she could visit beforehand? A fiancee in my book is someone you will marry and not someone you might marry.  A true relationship should withstand ANY hardships related to the location.

BC you make some good and valid points, but in an arena where those of us who have "been there and done that" nearly always speak in a unified voice when it comes to newbies minimising risk and thinking with their big head, it's a little suprising to here an advocate for giving our gov't. the authority to turn family based immigration into Monty Hall's Let's make a deal! 

Adjudicator:
OK folks, you can walk away with the cash and prizes you've accumulated so far, or you can trade it all for what's behind curtain #2...nooo peeking!

[BC]

BC you make some good and valid points, but in an arena where those of us who have "been there and done that" nearly always speak in a unified voice when it comes to newbies minimising risk and thinking with their big head, it's a little suprising to here an advocate for giving our gov't. the authority to turn family based immigration into Monty Hall's Let's make a deal! 

Adjudicator:
OK folks, you can walk away with the cash and prizes you've accumulated so far, or you can trade it all for what's behind curtain #2...nooo peeking!

Jet,

Actually I was thinking more in line with 'The Dating Game' concept..  This would probably work in quite nicely as embassy interviews.. The CO as the moderator and prospective bride/grooms picked at random from the line outside.



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