What would I do?

[andrewfi]

Two people asked how I would deal with the problems of the mail order bride industry.

I can't.

There is only one person, or group of people who can solve that problem. The clients. Problem is that if they were not in a position where they felt they needed to do what the do and were not then so gullible, well,then they could not be gulled.

Regulation is not the answer. Except in the form of self regulation - by the men seeking a woman who seeks to export herself. The problems are not of bad agencies, bad agencies are just a symptom of bad/weak/damaged/lazy/greedy/dishonest men willing to spend money to achieve their goals.

CG suggested that I would suggest that all guys stay at home and marry women from their peer group. He was wrong, but for sure it would solve the problem of dishonesty in this aspect of the business. But the problem goes not away. If you look on the internet you will see more than enough tales of plenty of dishonest operations in the US. The folk involved are the same - want more than they are 'entitled to' (sorry can't think of a better way to put it now) and people who will seek to profit from them.

It has been said many times by people other than I that if you can't do it at home then you can't expect to do it anywhere else. In the end, how much of the pain that goes with agency dishonesty would go away if guys simply had the relationship tools to be able to assess the situation and the self confidence to know their own worth? And if they had those attributes do you think they would be looking at MOB porn? Of course they would not they'd be like their more healthy colleagues.

Does a normal person need an agency to find a wife?
Does he need to use a catalogue?

If we were not in a position to need to use these artificial barriers then we would not be in a position to be affected by them. If we then choose to use them, for whatever reason, the chances that we could be defrauded would slide toward zero.

So guys, the solution to the problem is in your hands. Learn to be discriminating, learn your own worth and always, always look the gift horse in the mouth. Whenever I read or hear a guy saying 'I did so much better than I could at home' or similar phrases, I know he does not, in one way or another, yet know the truth of his situation.

Just remember this is a business, you need to approach it in a businesslike manner and in doing so you are secure against most of the bad things that can happen.


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BTW, Gator, I did not suggest that all transactions in the MOB business were dishonest, but that the only way to be able to safely proceed was on the basis that this was so - that is to employ a healthy, but not unreasonable, dose of scepticism. The person who regards those with whom he does business in this manner is much less likely to be disappointed in the outcome of his transactions and less likely to encounter dishonesty - his very demeanour would tend to enforce honesty.
Look at posters on this board, look at what they write, ask and advise, you can see the healthy sceptics and you can see the gulls flocking round. I would warrant that you and I can make a fair fist of divining outcomes of individual cases simply based upon what we read here.

Richard, you say that you would point people at 'honest agencies', now there are two points that follow, (1) you know that your allegiances have shifted with time and thus it is hard for me to see how you can possibly give credible advice on that point and (2) If you did not advise your clients to be sceptical, then, simply put, you are doing them a disservice because the poor guy who trusted you may well end up being less than fully guarded as a result of having trusted you! As you well know it is not just agencies owners or brand names, but the women in them, the employees, everyone. There is not a single agency that is credible top to bottom. If you pointed me at 'XYZ agency' with a simple 'You'll be OK with then, their owner is a decent cove' then I'd take your advice as having little value. If you also warned me that any agency has bad people etc etc etc, then I would take that as a sensible warning. However, in doing so, you would have been agreeing with my point made in the original thread.

[BillyB]

Two people asked how I would deal with the problems of the mail order bride industry.

I can't.

There is only one person, or group of people who can solve that problem. The clients. Problem is that if they were not in a position where they felt they needed to do what the do and were not then so gullible, well,then they could not be gulled.

I don't think the clients could fix the problem of bad agencies. It's kind of like telling smokers to fix the tobacco industry. Most smokers are addicted to the stuff or are in denial that they are killing themselves. They see nothing wrong with the tobacco industry as much as a client of AnastasiaWeb see's nothing wrong with that agency until they get scammed or get cancer.

[Leslie]

Andrew,

I have to comment on some of the things you said -

"The problems are not of bad agencies, bad agencies are just a symptom of bad/weak/damaged/lazy/greedy/dishonest men willing to spend money to achieve their goals."

This comment is right on the money.  Any agency owner will tell you that 90% of the guys using MOB will never make the trip.  The vast majority of MOB is in the porn business.  It is merely serving the market need!

Of the 10% who actually make the trip around a third are weirdos.  The sort of people who I would never associate with.  So out of 100 guys who use MOB just 6 are eligible.  This concurs exactly with my wife's views.  There are so few decent guys involved in this process that they are very quickly taken....

I have used agencies.  Lots of them.  I met my wife this way.  The only service an agency can uniquely provide is to organise an introductory meeting.  Anything over $20 $30 bucks is a rip off.  Oh and that's all.  Everything else is up to you.  If you need dating advice from a interpretor (most employed by agencies are young women) you should spend your money on a therapist rather than a trip to FSU...

Ipso facto the "full service agencies" tend to be used by guys who DON'T have the necessary relationship skills to succeed.  Fools and their money are easily parted...
 

[Momus]

[Strike the previous question: I'm just going to end up agreeing with Leslie.]

If Andrew's point is that many (or even most) of the men involved in this pursuit are damaged and that fixing themselves would also fix a lot of the problems they encounter, I agree.

If his point is that all of the men involved in this process are losers, emotional cripples, and/or social misfits, that's fine too -- he's entitled to his view. I just wish he'd come out and say it rather than hinting at it incessantly.

[Rvrwind]

(1) you know that your allegiances have shifted with time and thus it is hard for me to see how you can possibly give credible advice on that point and

Sorry Andrew, but I fail to see where my allegences have shifted over time. You'll have to explain that one.
I do tell any new clients to seek more information, even about us. I usually also point them to RWD to join & learn what they can. I do agree that even though the owner of the company may be honest that perhaps some employees are not. However I would also attribute that to absentee ownership. You cannot, run/operate/oversee your employees & their practises when you are 5000 miles away. And myself personally I could & would not trust anybody else to take on that role or responsibility.
I had a fellow write me yesterday & just by the tone of his email I could tell he was skeptical & was aware of the scams & dishonesty involved in this endeavour. Their is no point in me writing to defend my honour/honesty as it would serve no purpose, as he stated in his email 'they all claim to be honest'. So how do I turn tis fellow around. I cannot, I can only give him the facts, point him to places like RWD & some scam sites let him gather the needed info & hope he will come to the desired conclusion.
If he is going to a different city or wishes a diferent kind of service, I recommend agencies that I know to be lets say 'relatively honest'. I say that only because I have never personally delt with them but over the years having accumulated the knowledge from these boards from those who have, I have a short list of agencies that I would recommend & a long list of those who I would not. Certainly I cannt be 100% accurate but by recommendations from others & those who have used certain agencies there are a number out their that I consider to be more of a better shot than the rest.
Thats all anybody can do. In my mind that way at least some of the money that goes to prop up the bad agencies will be lost & sooner or later they will eventually fade away.
Some agencies I will only recommend certain sevices & not others. Take BH for instance, (I think thats oe of the switched allegences you allude to, however there was no switch) I would & never will recommend their correspondence service. The results of that have been talked about & discussed no end, but when a guy is on the ground in Tver he can walk through their door & meet many lovely ladies on a per meeting basis. Also some of their other services are resonably priced compared to some others here. But writing letters in advance of a visit is a long shot at best as is well known. I won't bring the others into this for fear that you know who will have this thread headed for the dumper as well.
But thats the jist of it. Some companies try very hard to give good service & to be honest but some of their employees may sabotage them, other maybe the owner is dishonest & the employees are not. Education as to who is honest & who should be recommended is up to those who have used the company. Although even that is sometimes a 50/50 shot as we have seen so recently.
Personally I would like to see a central database or website where every guy who uses any agency posts his experience, good or bad & that the agencies be rated percentage wise on that basis. I think such a tool would be invaluable, but I also think that there should be a mechinism in place to confirm the nformation but not judge it. A simple rating system of sorts where one could point newbies to & let them judge for themselves. However to be effective it has to be unbiased & every guy has to report as currently many, especially those who have bad experiences, do not.
Okay, done rambling. Just a few thoughts to consider.

[BC]

Personally I would like to see a central database or website where every guy who uses any agency posts his experience, good or bad & that the agencies be rated percentage wise on that basis. I think such a tool would be invaluable, but I also think that there should be a mechinism in place to confirm the nformation but not judge it. A simple rating system of sorts where one could point newbies to & let them judge for themselves. However to be effective it has to be unbiased & every guy has to report as currently many, especially those who have bad experiences, do not.

Actually such databases do exist:

http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?ind=reviews

http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?ind=topsite

I guess it's all a matter of participation.. maybe the established members should point some of the newcomers to these two features like we do for the commandments..  My take is a lot of folks either don't know about, or haven't tried them.

[andrewfi]

Billy, if your analogy is apt then you know that there is only one person who can cure an addict. Regulation does not work, never has and never will. The ONLY person who can modify a person's behaviour is the person himself.

Momus, given Leslie's comments and your praise of his words, how exactly do you find yourself not agreeing wth me?

The bottom line is that if one can manage a normal relationship, from selection of possibles, through the winnowing down of likely candidates to the selection of a final one and then the marital relations that follow then there is no place for an agency. If you could manage the process then the chances of you ever needing to look for a foreign wife are indeed slim.

None of us are perfect, we all have faults, weaknesses and shortcomings. The guys who need to use agencies to find a wife have a set of faults, weaknesses and shortcomings -the use of an agency is jsut one way of dealing with the issues faced by the guys. It is far from the best way.

Agencies simply pander to the weakenesses and foibles of their male clients whilst they pimp out their stock. As long as men make a choce to be gulled, they will be. Registers, lists, laws and regulations do not solve the central issues. It is like giving an aspirin to a man who has had his hand cut off.

When you look at the problems faced by your peers, how many of them, when looked at objectively, could not have been avoided simply by being better at maanging relationships and expectations? Very few indeed.

Another small but important point, very few of the guys I have had contact with in pursuit of a catalogue bride have been bad men, but they have just been demonstrably bad at managing a part of their lives. Sadly, a very important one.

Richard, so in your last post you have come to agree with me. Weird huh!

[Momus]

Momus, given Leslie's comments and your praise of his words, how exactly do you find yourself not agreeing wth me?

I may very well agree with you. I'm not entirely sure, because I find the position represented by your posting history a little slippery. In any case, Leslie clearly does not believe that all of the men involved in this pursuit are "damaged." You...I'm still not sure if you do or not.

The bottom line is that if one can manage a normal relationship, from selection of possibles, through the winnowing down of likely candidates to the selection of a final one and then the marital relations that follow then there is no place for an agency. If you could manage the process then the chances of you ever needing to look for a foreign wife are indeed slim.

Okay, this would seem to answer my question definitively. I think it's a reasonable view, though I disagree with it. I don't think failure at home is the only credible motivation for dating women in other countries. I have no desire to defend my social skills or relationship tools on the Internet, but I'm certainly confident I don't fall into that category. I'm sure every man here would say the same...

The only question I have left is, why? Why is it so difficult for you to imagine that even someone who can manage a normal relationship might look abroad for a partner? Do you believe that an enduring relationship with a person who is a great match for you is really so easy to find? For "normal people," it's not, and I think the statistics back me up on that. Perhaps you have been very fortunate in finding your "perfect match," or perhaps your expectations are not very high.

I also wonder about your use of the term "agency." Do you make any distinction between marriage agencies and dating services/websites (EM, Bride.ru, freepersonals, etc.)? 

[Gator]

Andrew asked, given Leslie's comments and your praise of his words, how exactly do you find yourself not agreeing wth me?

I agree “exactly”.


What Leslie wrote,

"The only service an agency can uniquely provide is to organise an introductory meeting.  Anything over $20 $30 bucks is a rip off.  Oh and that's all.  Everything else is up to you."

is in my opinion the same as what Andrew wrote,

"There is only one person, or group of people who can solve that problem. The clients….So guys, the solution to the problem is in your hands. Learn to be discriminating."

Other points.

Andrew wrote, Gator, I did not suggest that all transactions in the MOB business were dishonest, but that the only way to be able to safely proceed was on the basis that this was so - that is to employ a healthy, but not unreasonable, dose of scepticism.

Agree.  It is important to note that skepticism and discriminating or not the same as paranoia.  The latter can freeze a man.  The key is to have a good time, get the woman relaxed, see what develops, note carefully what she says and does, and look for a pattern (verification).

Leslie wrote, If you need dating advice from a interpretor ...you should spend your money on a therapist rather than a trip to FSU...

Partial agreement.  If you somehow develop a relationship with the interpreter, you can get indirect opinions about the woman’s sincerity, her past history, etc.   I have met about 5 women when I needed an interpreter, and in each case the interpreter was helpful. And one of these women is in what I hope is my Final Two.

Andrew wrote,...his very demeanour [skeptic] would tend to enforce honesty.

It will help but no guarantee.  In financial matters I am very skeptical and have been hoodwinked more times than I like to discuss.  It happened, however, only when I was influenced by the promise of greedy returns while not making a comparative analysis of investment opportunities. So guys, meet and date more than one RW (for comparison) who are not far out of your league (greed can be a terrible thing).

Of the 10% who actually make the trip around a third are weirdos...So out of 100 guys who use MOB just 6 are eligible.

 

Interesting assessment.  Are sex tourists in the "weirdo" category? RW say the number of sex tourists is higher than 33% (they are referred to as "not serious" men).  Would you also guess that just 6 of the RW listed with agencies are dishonest scammers and the like and the remainder would in good faith entertain marriage to the right man. In my case the number was 1 of 100.

[BillyB]

Billy, if your analogy is apt then you know that there is only one person who can cure an addict. Regulation does not work, never has and never will. The ONLY person who can modify a person's behaviour is the person himself.

An addict usually needs outside help to cure himself. He alone will not cure himself, admit he has a problem, or find the motivation to cure himself until he hits rock bottom. Are we to allow people to get to the point of rock bottom? I'm not a big believer in big dollar social programs but there should be a little assistance from the government occasionally. Of course the government can't cure stupidity, but they can make every agency who does business in the country list warning signs on the front page to say "beware of scammers and to use search engines to find the reputation of an agency from certain sources such as RWD or anti-scam site_______(insert name of good site here) before using it". I'm sure agencies such as AnastasiaWeb will clean up their act because they will lose a lot of customers as soon as the customers heed the government warning on their own website.

[andrewfi]

There is no shortage of warnings. There is a huge shortage of guys able to take heed of them, seems almost as though if one needs to use an agency then one will willfully disregard those warnings and warning signs.

We are responsible for our own outcomes.

In the end, if one can't do it right, one will likely get burned. Sadly the few 'successes' act as advertisment and incentive for the next gull along. As Gator notes, in other endeavours, it is the expectation of greedy retruns that leads to the problems. How many guys look outside their peer without some form of 'greedy returns'?

In respect of agencies, all we can expect/hope for is that they follow the norms of commercial enterprise. Some do, many do not. More regulations, unenforced and unenforceable, do not make a difference, except to mislead the sheeple and give them false confidence.

[BC]

An addict usually needs outside help to cure himself. He alone will not cure himself, admit he has a problem, or find the motivation to cure himself until he hits rock bottom. Are we to allow people to get to the point of rock bottom?

Billy,

Close, but not quite there..

In almost all cases an addict will never respond to outside offers of assistance unless he first admits to himself he has a problem.. Unfortunately this often happens after hitting rock bottom and not a moment before.  That's the nature of the beast.

I think for a lot of guys even the 'rush' provoked by an unsolicited scammer is enough to set the hook.   Sometimes even around here you could tell a guy it's not wise to p!$$ into the wind and he'll do it anyway.

[Jooky]

Very interesting.

If you do take a business like attitude towards the 'process' of finding a bride, using an agency does make sense on the surface. I mean, if I'm going to buy a car I go to the car dealership. If I want a bride, going to a bride dealership makes sense.

To run with this analogy, the bridal agency is like a car dealership that charges you for test drives but when you do ultimately make a decision the car comes at no additional cost. So this dealership would strive to keep you satisfied test driving cars without coming to a conculsion. Strange eh? Who would use that kind of dealership?

The quest for greedy returns is a good way to put things I think. That's hardly abnormal though. Think about the millions of people who play the lottery, invest in fly by night companies, fall for pyramid schemes or hit the blackjack table. Seeking greedy returns ain't smart but it certainly is normal.

[BC]

Jooky,

Yes is interesting..

I think most men who intend to buy a car will spend a lot of time checking out info on the internet, ask a few folks who bought a car at a particular dealership and maybe even during a test ride drop by a reputable mechanic friend for a second opin.

I wonder why many seem to take less effort with a mate and ultimately get scammed one way or another.

[andrewfi]

Business-like is simply a metaphor for using resources efficiently. I was not comparing a specific business model - if I was I would not have chosen a car dealership as it is the buyer who is being addresed here.

When I am in my home environment I meet many women, all the time. It costs me nothing in resources to see them, interact with them and get to know them.

When one rejects the women in one's home environment then one must either face a lifetime alone or significantly increased resource costs - meeting (as in looking at profiles and sending emails etc) costs money, travel costs money and takes time and of course one is unable to 'meet' as many women as one would in a normal social environment. All these resources are limited and more costly.

Thus it behoves the rational seeker of a foreign bride to conserve his resources, to act in a business-like manner.

As to 'greedy returns', no, this behaviour is not normal, although it may be among foreign wife seekers. If it were normal, then social and economic interactions would look very, very different. In practice, normal behaviour is to set a value at or around the market price, or when values are set wrongly they tend to return to the norm. Applies in most spheres of life, not just money!
There is a difference between this and a decsision to accept higher risk in expectation of greater reward. In the case of the MOB industry it is entirely obvious that the buyers (men at least) are in general pretty risk averse, but they still seek something more than they can get at home - that is what Gator refers to as greedy returns - seeking something for nothing.
Those who remember Photoguy, well, he was a risk taker - very limited resources, single shot, high reward, high risk. Sadly he had not fully come to terms with the impact of that strategy and so he crashed and burned.

BTW, it may seem odd to look at these issues in economic terms, until one understands that economics is about the allocation of scarce resources (any resource that is not unlimited is scarce). If we understand that we have to marshall all our resources and allocate them in best fashion then we run less risk of running out of them, or of making poor choices. Or, perhaps, by using the insight to do as Photoguy did and shoot for the moon and accept the likely consequence (failure) as being the price to pay to have had the chance of an uncommon reward.

Gator and Leslie both used (as far as I can see) sensible allocation of resources, minimised risk and whilst both have had different outcomes, I bet Gator does not regret his time spent.

[Bruno]

I mean, if I'm going to buy a car I go to the car dealership. If I want a bride, going to a bride dealership makes sense.

Usually, a car dealership know something about car... and you have some garanty same if it is minimum...

I think that the equivalent of car dealership will be something related to matchmaker... a "job" who slowly dissappear and is replacer by some other dating system...

Marriage agency are one of the new dating system... in some way, marriage agency is not more that a modern form of newspaper with advert... some marriage agency offert side service who are not directly related to the dating process like trip, translation, gift, etc ... these service can be find to other place that marriage agency...

[Jooky]

Time and money are resources and both are expended in interacting with other people. That's just part of life. I think a problem amongst bride seekers is that too many are willing to spend more money in order to save time in arriving at their ultimate goal of marriage. I also have seen too many men who do shop for a bride in the same manner as they shop for a car. It is a business transaction and that attitude, not only their desire for greedy returns that makes them not normal.

C'mon, you can't tell me that playing the lottery is not normal behaviour. (Or do you have some strange definition of what is considered 'normal'?)

[Bruce]

The best dollars an individual guy spends is the dollars he spends on himself.  A guy has to figure out his own limitations, strengths and weaknesses.  He must know himself.  If he needs a therapist to help him figure out himself then that is where he should start.  If he needs a therapist to help him figure out himself, he better sort things out with the local women prior to stepping on a plane.  A guy who decides he wants a wife from the FSU better know what he is getting into prior to taking the first plane ride.  He better try his best to become an expert in Russian culture and history as well as become as adept at Russian language as he can (I admit this may be nearly impossible for those 40 and over depending upon their innate language abilities, but they should at least give it a whirl for a good six months).  If the guy decides to go to the FSU he should look at his first trip as a vacation to see the sights and enjoy the fruits of his studies.  A big cultural city makes a lot of sense in this case.  Now, I believe this individual should employ a guide / translator or some sort of professional help to ensure his safety and ensure that he maximizes his vacation.  If he has the opportunity to meet some Russian girls along the way, so be it.  After the first trip, he will or will not get the bug.  If he decides he is so enamored with the trappings, class and culture of Russian women (yet also sees the foreboding dark side) then he will be back.  If he can find a legitimate service to use as a tool to help him meet those objectives he should.  As long as he knows himself, knows what he is looking for, keeps his wits, takes his time and knows actual costs he will not get himself ripped off and the legitimate help he can employ will help him reach his objectives.  Its all in the head, remember that  !

[BC]

Bruce,

But.... all that takes work!.. and doesn't fulfill my need for instant gratification!

I want an honest girl that won't scam me, is willing to marry me unconditionally, young and sexy, without all the costly hassles of visiting, visas etc etc.

And yes, all delivered within 24 hours after I enter my credit card number and press 'Order Now'..

Of course with a money-back guarantee or at least trade in/up possibility..

Why should I expect less?

 

[Gator]

One key difference between romancing RW and financial investing is the play of emotions.  In the latter, one should never allow emotions to influence decision making (the wise expression, “Do not fall in love with a stock”).  The former is all about emotions.

Another difference (in my case) is that I see the decision making as a delightful journey.  I took a long time to decide about marriage.  Most men do not have the luxury of time and perhaps spend, relatively speaking, as much time as selecting a mutual fund. There is the rub.  Men know less than with AW (language and cultural barriers) and have less time to make a decision.  So the risks of failure are high and apparent, yet emotions can blind the buyer.