The TRUE Nature of a SCAM

[IAmZon]

As with all my posts, this is a question.

I have read many reports about SCAMS, and it has caused me to wonder ... I have gone on many dates where the woman expressed modest (even GREAT) interest in the beginning, I paid for everything during our time together.  But, at the end of the night, the connection did not rise to the level inoreder advance. 

No good guy, no bad guy - just the nature of things.

With VERY pretty girls this is more the case because they date more frequently - a great deal more frequently. They have more men to compare to.  And this is in Tampa, FL; New York, NY; Atlanta; GA!

I wonder how much of the SCAMS fit into that example?  I know that if a guy has high expectations and spends a lot of money travelling half way around the world - THAT STINGS!!

If a women is COMPLETELY insincere - has a husband at home; and just flat lying; that is a SCAM to me.  If a woman is exploring - playing the field - that should NOT be a SCAM.

So, when you consider the above definitions, who thinks that SCAMS may be over-reported?

Who thinks that professional SCAMS - true schemes - are so developed that they are rising to the level of a "cottage industry"?

[BillyB]

If a RW who is married is getting involved with foreign men, I would say that would qualify as a scam. A marriage is a contract, bond, and a promise. So the woman would be deceiving not only her husband, but every man out there that she implies to that she's single and availiable for courting. With courting comes gifts, money, and more promises. I prefer to deal with simple scammers that come out and ask for money, they're easier to figure out.

But I do believe scams are over reported due to men sho simply get rejected.

[jb]

rivardco,

I don't think scams are "over" reported at all, I think they are grossly under reported.  The average guy who gets sucked into a scam is too embarrassed by the time he figures it all out to say anything.  He just quietly tucks his tail between his legs and slinks back into his hole.

The scenario you described above is what we call a "Professional Dater", which is a very mild kind of scam.  The very pretty girls know that lots of what they consider to be very rich men come to town to date many women.  They think; "hey~! why shouldn't I get a few freebies out of the deal?".  And so it goes. 

[Michelangelo]

No good guy, no bad guy - just the nature of things.

Who thinks that SCAMS may be over-reported?

Who thinks that professional SCAMS - true schemes - are so developed that they are rising to the level of a "cottage industry"?

You are correct that some men cry "wolf" or "scam" when the girl is simply exercising her choice--she does not like the guy.

But unfortunately, scams are to the level of "cottage industry."   There are some agencies that put married women on their top 10 lists and generate a lot of money from guys who write them, thinking the girl is "available."

Yet, there are thousands of honest and sincere girls who seek marriage, and to foreign men.

Every man seeking foreign relationships should assume a scam is possible.  And he better invest lots of time and many visits (1 year and 5 visits, for example), before marrying a foreign woman.

I'll give the same advice to FSU woman before committing to a man.

[Gator]

Agree with both JB and Billy.  Real scams are under reported (JB’s comment).  False claims of scams are also reported by men who were rejected (Billy's comment).

[Admin]

rivardco,

I don't think scams are "over" reported at all, I think they are grossly under reported.  The average guy who gets sucked into a scam is too embarrassed by the time he figures it all out to say anything.  He just quietly tucks his tail between his legs and slinks back into his hole.

The scenario you described above is what we call a "Professional Dater", which is a very mild kind of scam.  The very pretty girls know that lots of what they consider to be very rich men come to town to date many women.  They think; "hey~! why shouldn't I get a few freebies out of the deal?".  And so it goes. 

I don't know. I see the other side of the equation - the number of women who feel scammed (lied-to) by the men who:

(a) have no real intention of ever visiting, and/or
(b) have lied through their teeth to impress the women, only to discover the lies at some point along the way, and/or
(c) comes for a visit purely to take advantage of the girl and have a sexual tryst

There are a LOT of decent, sincere women who have been deceived in a variety of ways by the men. THAT scam is surely under-reported on these board, because the women have no easy outlet to let others know.

Just my $.02 worth.

- Dan

[viking]

I agree with JB here. I do think many men are embarressed to post a woman who scammed them. Or they don't want to take the time to make the post. I can personally attest to one woman who scammed many men, according to the attorney who posted her url on the womans scam profile. She received many calls from guys complaining of getting ripped but very few did any thing about it.

[Sohkay]

I don't know. I see the other side of the equation - the number of women who feel scammed (lied-to) by the men who:

(a) have no real intention of ever visiting, and/or
(b) have lied through their teeth to impress the women, only to discover the lies at some point along the way, and/or
(c) comes for a visit purely to take advantage of the girl and have a sexual tryst

There are a LOT of decent, sincere women who have been deceived in a variety of ways by the men. THAT scam is surely under-reported on these board, because the women have no easy outlet to let others know.

Just my $.02 worth.

- Dan

Dan, I think you're right on the money regarding sleazeball guys who lie and lead women on. But point one is very simple...caveat emptor. Let's not start getting into a victim consciousness around here. We already have too much of that in America. Secondly, isn't that what RWA and antidate are all about. It seems to me, that while we welcome the fairer sex here and would like to see more of their participation, this in essence, is primarily a male occupied board. You're getting me a little worried that we're going to start seeing pink borders on RWD, with flowers and doilies in the header. And then we're going to start having big rumbles every 20 to 30 days. We can't be all things to all people.

[Admin]

We can't be all things to all people.

Very true.

At the same time, it is (IMO) hypocritical and self-serving to ignore the very real issues faced by all concerned. Simple matter of 'balance.' There are certainly scamming women and they are to be pilloried. There are also insincere guys who deserve equal time in the pillory. In the one case, the gals diddle with the men's money. In the other case, the men diddle with (among other things) the women's emotions. Which is worse is a matter of debate, I suppose - but both are reprehensible.

Just adding a bit of perspective.

FWIW

- Dan

PS - Blue remains the predominant theme color   

[viking]

It seems to me that a scammer man or woman, does more than just A)take your money or B)use your body. They also take away something that cannot be replaced. Your time. And lets not forget the emotional aspects that can leave scars. They are harder to fix than an empty wallet.

[Sohkay]

Dan,
You and I agree on this issue. A balanced perspective is good. And if you look at most of the posts on this short thread, you see recognition of that balance in MOST of the posts. But think about this...with our role as men/as aggressors in the male female relationship, I wonder who does most of the scamming? Methinks it's the women. It's the man who takes the initiative and the financial chance, and like the woman, also investing time and emotions. I once ran into a small agency operator who took it upon herself to be the protector of all her girls, most often alluding to protecting their emotional interests. Her perspective was that the man only had money on the line. This is where I don't want to see us go. There can be a serious emotional and time stake for the man in this venture...every bit as serious as the woman's.

Sohkay

PS - Yeah, I like the predominant blue theme...big time.

PPS - OT - Anybody out there watching War Birds on PBS? Very cool, if you like airplanes. Catch it next Wednesday too.

[Gator]

A few quotes from Sohkay:

But point one is very simple...caveat emptor.

Agree if you believe it works both ways. 

I wonder who does most of the scamming? Methinks it's the women.

   Sir, you have no information.  The woman probably comes in a distant third for total dollars scammed - behind Fat Yuri and bad agencies.   And what is a scam?  A man spends $2000 on a trip and complains that a woman hooked him for $10 extra on the taxi fare trick.  In the case of a woman not showing or spending little time with the man, yes that is a scam if he paid for trip (something that he has been warned about).  Otherwise it is rejection or change of heart.

There can be a serious emotional and time stake for the man in this venture...every bit as serious as the woman's.

  Think about who has more to lose emotionally.  It is not the man.

A balanced perspective is good.

Yes, except this Board is not exactly balanced.  You mentioned Antidate, and men complain about it.   How can I decide if it is reliable if I am unable to read the posts.  For those who do, how much further off balance is it than we are?    We have our JB's and other happily married men explain the virtues and vices of RW (and correct us when we are wrong).  Does Antidate have happily married RW explaining the culture of sincere Western men? 

Final thought.  Consider the extreme cases.  Some men would think what Maxx went through represents the pinnacle of scamming (I should say "nadir" rather than "pinnacle") in which the emotional torment and trauma is severe.  It is not.  Actual DV would be worse.   

[Sohkay]

A few quotes from Sohkay:
 Agree if you believe it works both ways.
Oh I do. I certainly do. 
   Sir, you have no information.  And what is a scam?  A man spends $2000 on a trip and complains that a woman hooked him for $10 extra on the taxi fare trick.  In the case of a woman not showing or spending little time with the man, yes that is a scam if he paid for trip (something that he has been warned about).  Otherwise it is rejection or change of heart.
Can you not see the forest for the trees? Of course it is a rejection, almost everyone recognizes that. Your argument is absurd. It is like saying we should not have welfare for retarded adult citizens because 5% of the welfare recipients are defrauding the system. Throwing the baby out with the bathwater much?
  Think about who has more to lose emotionally.  It is not the man.
Now this is telling! You don't have an emotional investment with the woman you're traveling to see! Good heavens, could this be part of your problem?
 Yes, except this Board is not exactly balanced.  You mentioned Antidate, and men complain about it.   How can I decide if it is reliable if I am unable to read the posts.  For those who do, how much further off balance is it than we are?    We have our JB's and other happily married men explain the virtues and vices of RW (and correct us when we are wrong).  Does Antidate have happily married RW explaining the culture of sincere Western men?
If you're looking for some 50/50 perfect balance, you will never find it in matters related to human beings.

Final thought.  Consider the extreme cases.  Some men would think what Maxx went through represents the pinnacle of scamming (I should say "nadir" rather than "pinnacle") in which the emotional torment and trauma is severe.  It is not.  Actual DV would be worse.
It's all bad. You're putting women on a pedestal sir, and thereby working against your own best interest. Think seriously about this. Putting them on a pedestal is just as counterproductive as looking down on them or placing them below you. Both of them are wrong.  

[Gator]

Sohkay,

I don't think we are communicating at the same level.  Good luck with your endeavors.

[Sohkay]

Gator,

Take a serious look at the "pedestal" issue. It might be just what you need.

Good luck to you too.

Sohkay

[Turboguy]

As far as the issue of who has more to loose I think it is generally the man.  I have heard some horror stories both ways and have seen cases where the gal lost a lot.   I know some gals who have been badly deceived and I am sure badly hurt.  I have been very touched by some of the stories I have heard.

As far as why I think it is the man ususally.   First the travel scam alone is a multi-million dollar industry.   I doubt if from a strictly dollar sense all the women who have been scammed in the FSU put together would hit a million.  They just don't have the bucks the American men do. 

A lot of the scamming of women is more in lost time and lost dreams.  Guys who one way or the other deceive the woman.  Either about themselves or about the visit they are planning (someday that never comes) or about their intentions.   I think the biggest scammers of women by far are the sex tourists.  I can't consider them a bit better than Fat Yuri.  As far as the armchair romantics who never visit, I have a feeling they are deluding themselves as much as they are the women.   I think most think that somehow tommorrow they will win the lottery and make a trip.  As far as the ones who deceive the woman and send old photos, lie about their big house or great job or hide facts about their criminal record or sexual identity they are idiots. They are fooling themselves as much as their woman and should be smart enough to know it will catch up to them.   I have as much respect for them as I do a GCG.

As far as the women scamming the men I have to agree with something Viking said earlier.   The biggest loss for many of us is the time not the money.  I have been scammed more than most of the guys, mostly in my pre-RWD days.  This is a great place to learn.  Let me just look at one of my experiences.   Back before I realized big agency tours were a waste, it was the primary method I was using.  OK, so I sign up for a tour 3 months off, make a tour in March,  Meet a gal in St Petersburg.   Three months later I am back for a 5 day visit.   Money wise, I probably spent $ 5500 on the tour trip and my 5 days cost me well over $ 4000.00 more.   Of that she scammed me out of $ 800 or so in 5 days.   OK, to get a lousy $ 800 in her pocket she caused me to spend 10 grand.   It sure would have been a lot better if when we had me she would have just said.  I am a scammer and am going to rip you off for $ 800.00.  Why don't you just give me the $ 800 and save the time and money and heartbreak.   Of course I would have laughed in her face but it sure would have been better.  I don't care about the money.  My real loss was the time.  By the time I got back to square one I wasted close to a year.  Add in the other scammers I met and there are a lot of wasted years.   

If you take the ways that are really a scam against men.  Fat Yuri, the pro daters, the women who are really scammers, the GCG's, those who grab someone with the idea of trading up once they are here and those who misrepresent or omit things like the guys do sometimes,  the walk in the park picture the agency's try to paint is really a mine laden battlefield for the guys.   Yes, it all can be worth it but as far as who has more to loose, my vote if for the guy.

[Gator]

Sohkay wrote, There can be a serious emotional and time stake for the man in this venture...every bit as serious as the woman's.

Gator wrote, Think about who has more to lose emotionally.  It is not the man.

Sohkay wrote,  Now this is telling! You don't have an emotional investment with the woman you're traveling to see! Good heavens, could this be part of your problem?

I agree if you confine your thinking to just the meeting.  However, I was thinking about the whole experience to include marriage.  More below.

Turboguy wrote, As far as the issue of who has more to loose I think it is generally the man.

T/G, I read all your scenarios of women scamming men and men scamming women.   Frankly, it seems about equal as you described it, but my eyes were glazing over as I kept reading.

But consider the RW who comes here in good faith and the AM who did not oversell himself.  It is the case of a decent man marrying a decent woman.  This is the ideal situation.  Is this a rare occurrence? 
   
The decent RW leaves her family, her friends, her job, and her Mother Russia.  These are her support.  She is giving up almost everything and must depend upon the man totally at first.  She comes in good faith.  So little is known about each other.  So much can go wrong, compounded by the frequent case of also bringing a child.   This is why I say women risk more and have more to lose. 

Over 4 years I have dated 20 RW, and I brought one to America.  Never did I encounter a scam.  Almost all of them were more open, direct, forthright and truthful than the AW in my life.  Have my good experiences warped my perspective?  Perhaps, plus I am a naturally optimistic person.   If one of these RW had made a mess and then rubbed my nose in it, I probably would sing a different tune. Yet, I still would think that RW have more at risk coming here than we do in bringing them here.

[Turboguy]

Gator,  I was talking more about who has to most to loose by being scammed.  I will stand by my statement that men loose more in scams then women do.

As far as the scenairo you are talking about where both are well meaning and planning marriage, yes, the woman has the greater risk.   I won't repeat what you said but I agree with it.

There are so different things that can happen that I don't know if any logic can come from discussions.   Yes, sometimes the man has no realistic idea of what he should be doing to help make it easier for his girl.  Sometimes the girl has no realistic expectations about what to expect here.    Yes, she has more to loose and she should know her man before she makes the decison to come here.   I wish everyone could have a story book ending but sometimes they don't.

[David1963]

If you never get on a plane and get scammed then lesson learned. 

If you visit and get scammed you scammed you are probably trying to attain something that is most likely out of you league.  The lack of dating or social skills also leads people to be scammed.

During this venture most people will get scammed or over-pay usually some small amounts < $500 total.  That is just the a cost of doing this. 

If you end up waiting at the airport for a lady who doesn't show and you have never visited.

If you spend more than a few days with a pro-dater.

If you have been sending a monthly allowance to a fiancee who changes ehr mind at the last minute.

Then you are probably lacking common sense, social skills or are blinded by a beautiful body or great sex.

The TRUE nature of a scam are very gullable men.

[tim 360]

Scams?  In any scam whether it is a financial con or "a honey pot" con like one reads about there are only 2 reasons why these scams have worked and will continue to work.  The victims are usually greedy.  They begin to believe that the stock they can buy will triple next week,  like the "broker" on the phone just told them.  OR the absolutely-beautiful-outta -his-league RW who has be emailing him is---already in love with him and coming to see him.  She only needs a little visa-help.

In both of these cases greed is at play.  And that is the victims problem and that will probably cost him.  Knowledge or lack of it is the 2nd reason.  A financilly savy person is not going to think one second about the "boileroom" stock peddler.  The knowledgeable or experienced guy with some understanding of the FSU is not going to be sending "Natasha" visa $. 

But,  no problem for the scammer because it is a #'s game and there is not as of yet a shortage greedy and unknowledgeable people in this world.  Ciao, tim360

[Kvinna]

Gator,  I was talking more about who has to most to loose by being scammed.  I will stand by my statement that men loose more in scams then women do.

As far as the scenairo you are talking about where both are well meaning and planning marriage, yes,

Well then some day we will try to scam you in male way. I think it will be funny
At first we create rapport with some of you. Make feel so good and comfortable with one of us. After 3 - 5 monthes we will start discussing our meeting. We will promise you just you want to get, but believe me with our NLP skills we will lull all your suspicions for sure and make you feel happy. All this will take about 2 monthes
Ok then preparation to meeting, it'll take some time. But of course we make you expect much from this meeting... and the very same day when you come to airport you will get a message that care of woman you are going to meet with, just crashed ... she is in hospital almost dying, and bla bla bla
and then we start long-long correspondence with you under name of her doctor or something like this - it takes about 2 weeks before she "die"
After 3 monthes you will find her (of course we help you) on other dating site or marriage agency.
What can you blame her in? Nothing

[tim 360]

Kvinna,  a very interesting strategy.  You must be FSB.  Or former KGB, 7th directorate?  Da,  Cheerio, tim360

[Kvinna]

Kvinna,  a very interesting strategy.  You must be FSB.  Or former KGB, 7th directorate?  Da,  Cheerio, tim360

you have a very vivid imagination 

[Turboguy]

Kvinna,

That exact scenario is one I have not encountered but I have been scammed enough in the past to have a measurable effect on the GDP of Russia.   

I guess that is why people have backup plans when they make trips.   Trust me, if I told you some of the stories, there are many that are equal to that or worse.

You forgot to say at what point I was supposed to pay the money?

[Gator]

Turbo,

Kvinna was using irony.  You have not been scammed in the way that Kvinna described because it is a way AM deceive or mislead RW.   Her example illustrates that women also lose their time and dreams.

How many times has it happened?  Who knows because we do not read about it here.

And in this example you did not have to pay money because men do not ask for money.  I can not say that because I know one RW who had been scammed out of $2000 by a Turkish man - he was young, handsome and charming, and she was in love.