Fall trip Ukraine

[Jet]

Rivardco,
jb and Jack are BOTH right in my opinion. The more time you can spend "on the ground" in FSU, the better for you to meet, come to know, and try to understand RW. However, and this is not to be glazed over lightly, when it's time for you to return stateside, your new found Russian girlfriend(s) will not *think* you are coming back here and sleeping with the local ladies, they will *KNOW* that's what you're doing - and you WON'T convince them otherwise. This is something that's engrained from very early childhood, and is hard to overcome. My wife loves me to death, trusts me implicitly, but on the odd occasion where I have to work an evening late, or an overnite (such as a "Mall" construction project), suspicion gets the better of her every now and then. This is after being married for three years.

[Thor]

Yes this is thrue, also my girl all time belive that I have other girls here in Kharkov. If I comes home a bit late she calls her sister to ask what to do or if she has seen me. If a girl speak to me at a discko she belive that this is a prostitute I have been with before I meet her and so on...This is the FSU mentality. In former Sovjetunion many peoples have affairs even when they are married, it is regarded as almost normal here...

[IAmZon]

Yet more illusions fall ...

Affairs: So, IF having affairs are commonplace in UK and Russia, how is it that many of the generalizations (overemphasized on agency boards, yet modestly confirmed here) that Russian women are MORE traditional and MORE family centered hold true?

Jealousy: Jealously is NOT some sort of expression of love.  It is a fear of abandonment.  I see the characteristic jealousy referenced often here ... I think it has to do with the obvious lack of stability that a woman would feel being uprooted from one country to another, and having an imbalance of reliance within the relationship - the man holds most of the cards.

How to combat that?  The woman should begin enjoying her own American life ASAP ... school, job, friends.

9 and 10: Little difference between an 8 and 9.  10s are a gift from God, yet God has a sense of humor - 10s are almost highly HIGH maintenance.  And this leads to yet an oversimplification - physical appearance.  The fun part for men.  The inner world is where happiness, or sadness originates (but the pictures where so great, Jack.  I too am a leg man)

The contributions above that suggest the highest quality of women do not frequent MOB gatherings ... I feel like a cold glass of water has just been thrown in my face - OF COURSE NOT! 

Of course, there must be a negative stereo-type with foreign men "visiting" on the outside, "hunting" for a trade-up bride on the inside.  That is not the kinds of stuff that attracts the best and the brightest.  I can only imaging the parade of Western men that have already trampled through the villages - in general certainly not the best and the brightest.  How must this affect the general outlook!!!

Perhaps there is already a county song in the Ukraine sung by mothers: "Mamas, don't let your daughters grow up to be MOBs."

How severe has this negative perception become?

[Jet]

How to combat that?  The woman should begin enjoying her own American life ASAP ... school, job, friends.

Understand that in my example, and I'm not trying to brag (OK, maybe a little  ), my wife has:

• A job which pays a little over $40k
• Full medical for her and Niko
• Her own checking & Money market, and retirement accts.
• Her own brand new car - with only her name on the title (she qualified for the loan w/o a co-signer)
• Her own cell, and laptop
• Her own friendships (independent from "our" friendships) in and outside of work
• Her own FF airline card as she has made 2 trips/yr since she arrived in '03

She's fairly secure in her life and her future. We're together because both of us want to be together, not because one of us is holding all the cards...

How severe has this negative perception become?

There is a stigma attached to finding a husband abroad, at least if she's from a small town. Family and close friends are always happy for the fiancee/wife as they would be here, but once you move outside that tight knit circle, you may find that as a foreign husband, your fiancee/wife eats a lot of sh!t from neighbors and aquaintences after your visit has concluded and/or upon her first visit home after living abroad. More than a couple women my wife has spoken with have told her they invited a foreign man to stay at the apartment the first time, but will never offer again - due to the lewd and disgusting insults from the neighbors the first time. So, it's not just her that has experienced this phenomenon.

[billsetnor]

Jet,

   It's too bad Lilia's (and your) success in America after just 3 years will go unreported by the state-scrutinized media in Russia.

   Can you imagine the response (given the lousy working conditions most teachers there are living with) if Lilia's story was highlighted back home?  The doors of the agencies would be torn off the hinges by the stampede of women teachers looking for a better life (and better husbands like you) over here!!!  They'd have to shut down the schools, for God's sake!

   But, nyet, that story won't be told.  Better to talk about the Indell King's and other losers who've gone to the FSU in search of a wife, than to talk about the positive stories like yours.   

   You've done things right, Jet, and your heart's obviously in the right place.  Yours is a model of how all of us should go about this process.  Hopefully, the newbies who come to RWD for advice and information will pay attention to you and your story, then learn from it.

   Continued good fortune to you and Lilia and your family.


Bill

[jb]

I would second that.

[Albert]

Yet more illusions fall ...

Affairs: So, IF having affairs are commonplace in UK and Russia, how is it that many of the generalizations (overemphasized on agency boards, yet modestly confirmed here) that Russian women are MORE traditional and MORE family centered hold true?

- - - - - -   

Just as I told you in another thread.  There are basically no differences between FSU women and western women.  The traditional and family centered thingy are just agency BS along with practically everything else they say.

There is really only one difference between FSU and western women and that has to do with body weight.  FSU women tend (on average) to keep their weight down more for each age group than do western women.  This has nothing to do with any superiority of FSU women, but rather to the fact that they tend to eat a little less and do a lot more exercise.  The exercise is not necessarily of the 'do workout' type, but rather just daily life where they walk to bus or metro stop, walk to grocery store, walk up some flights of stairs, etc.

Aside from body weight, there are no differences.   However, there is a difference in the women that you can aspire to in FSU compared to the west.  For each woman you find appealing in FSU (based on any criteria you establish,) she has a counterpart in the west.  But this counterpart western woman won't give you the time of day.  The FSU woman will give you the time of day, and she will date you and marry you.

[Albert]

Yet more illusions fall ...

Affairs: So, IF having affairs are commonplace in UK and Russia,

- - - - - - - - -

I don't know if there are any reliable statistics about frequency of affairs in FSU vs the west.

But a few tidbits I picked up from women in FSU.

Woman one told me that about half of her married women friends have had affairs.

Woman two asked me if I had affairs on my business trips during my nearly 30 year marriage.  I told her the truth which was no.  She answered:  "Why on earth not?"

Woman three told me of a TV program in Kyiv.  They go onto the street in the center of Kyiv and stop people (both men and women).  They tell the people that the TV station will pay for a vacation trip if this person can stop a person of the opposite sex on the street and convince the other person to go on the trip with them.  I think part of the deal is that they only provide one room, but I wouldn't swear to that.

Anyway, woman three told me that she was surprised in watching this program one time that the husband of a work colleague of hers was stopped by a woman who proposed the trip to him.  He readily accepted.

Woman three told about this to another friend of hers and was wondering how it would go over with the wife.  The friend informed her that the wife was already involved in an affair with a married man (fairly high up in government).  Apparently the husband already knew about it but, in any event, the wife wouldn't be complaining about her husband going on the free vacation with another woman.

In answering my question, woman three told me that it seemed about half the time the first person selected was able to convince a stranger to go on the vacation with them.

I haven't seen or heard of a similar program in USA, so don't know how the results would compare.

[IAmZon]

I would call that the Mother of All Trade Ups, Albert.

Implicit in all my posts, and other too, is the question: "Is there REALLY enough benefit to offset the effort." 

Again, and again, I see the answer being a very conditional yes - based upon the expectations of the man, and the amount of money and effort the man is willing and able to invest.

[IAmZon]

Albert:

Additionally, I would like to probe your contention that there are really no REAL differences between the RW and AW (not in a argument fashion! just clarification). 

You see, I have expereinced RW apparently very proud to talk of their visions of children and family.  This seems to be very consistent and very strong.  If I compare this to AW, there is a clear difference.

In generalizations (dangerous things), there seems to be a difference in the relative importance of children and family; the devotion and strength of conviction that those interest and values necessitate.  There also seems to be less of a feeling of entitlement ... or a stronger work ethic ... or a less "spoiled brat" mentality.

I have also noticed the steady references of the stubborn - tenacious - nature of RW.  I am sure that a RW can be a hand full.  These characteristics may be a TURN ON, or TURN OFF, depending on the man.

My purpose here is to try, when possible, to draw finer points of understanding.

Thanks

[Jet]

Albert:

Additionally, I would like to probe your contention that there are really no REAL differences between the RW and AW (not in a argument fashion! just clarification). 

You see, I have expereinced RW apparently very proud to talk of their visions of children and family.  This seems to be very consistent and very strong.  If I compare this to AW, there is a clear difference.

IMHO Albert probably isn't qualified to make that contention in the first place. By virtue of his prior postings, I'd guess Albert isn't ever going to spend any time at all with the "RW you've experienced" nor will  he waste time on a lady like my wife. His search seems to be focused on a very narrow subset of a very small set of RW. That subset has a very narrow focus, which is fairly constant globally. The 9s & 10s with high sex drives that put out quickly in Moscow are looking for the same "benefit package" as those in Sydney,Tokyo, Paris, Amsterdam, New York, & Hollywood, and NOT what 99% of RW are looking for.

[Vaughn]

Jet,

 It's nice to read your account of Liliya's success. Substitute a Pfaff serger for the laptop, and Elvira enjoys a similiar lifestyle - just bought her own 2007 Toyota, and recently switched jobs for a 50% pay increase while rolling over her bank 401K into a private IRA.

It's too bad Lilia's (and your) success in America after just 3 years will go unreported by the state-scrutinized media in Russia.

The successful merger of an RW into our economy/society seldom gets airplay here as well - but we'll sure read and hear about DV cases and conclude with IMBRA bills.

 At times these threads run off on tangents - and Jack, lemme tell you how much I've enjoyed the photos, candid as most are, of Ukrainian women and landmarks.

[Muj]

For the record.  UK is United Kingdom.  UA is Ukraine,

[vwrw]

Yes this is thrue, also my girl all time belive that I have other girls here in Kharkov. If I comes home a bit late she calls her sister to ask what to do or if she has seen me. If a girl speak to me at a discko she belive that this is a prostitute I have been with before I meet her and so on...This is the FSU mentality. In former Sovjetunion many peoples have affairs even when they are married, it is regarded as almost normal here...

LOL… Thor, to your mind if your gal does not love herself and because of that she does not believe that you can love her and if there are some more similar gals in FSU then this means that it is FSU mentality. Once time I visited a women’s forum (ever since never did it any more) and read a lot of bad stories how foreign men cheat RW. Did that mean that all foreign men do so, and it is foreign men mentality?

[Turboguy]

I think VWRW is right that a lot of times jealousy is tied to feelings of insecurity.   I am sure also when somene lives in a culture where cheating is common it can be accepted as a way of life.   

If it is insecurity you may have to always live with that to some extent.  If it is culture with her as she learns her new culture it may fade away. 

I think it is important to have trust.  It has to be very difficult for anyone to sit around all the time worrying about what their special person is really doing.   Hopefully in time she will learn she can trust you. 

[Gator]

Jet,

Keep talking, please.  Your story and those of other married men are inspiring.

It has been three years!  I recall the turmoil of getting her here.  I suppose that now seems very insignificant in comparison with the blissful life you enjoy with her.

[jb]

IMHO Albert probably isn't qualified to make that contention in the first place. By virtue of his prior postings, I'd guess Albert isn't ever going to spend any time at all with the "RW you've experienced" nor will  he waste time on a lady like my wife. His search seems to be focused on a very narrow subset of a very small set of RW. That subset has a very narrow focus, which is fairly constant globally. The 9s & 10s with high sex drives that put out quickly in Moscow are looking for the same "benefit package" as those in Sydney,Tokyo, Paris, Amsterdam, New York, & Hollywood, and NOT what 99% of RW are looking for.

This has to be one of the most insightful assessments I've ever seen.

Kudo's Jet

[Albert]

IMHO Albert probably isn't qualified to make that contention in the first place. By virtue of his prior postings, I'd guess Albert isn't ever going to spend any time at all with the "RW you've experienced" nor will  he waste time on a lady like my wife. His search seems to be focused on a very narrow subset of a very small set of RW. That subset has a very narrow focus, which is fairly constant globally. The 9s & 10s with high sex drives that put out quickly in Moscow are looking for the same "benefit package" as those in Sydney,Tokyo, Paris, Amsterdam, New York, & Hollywood, and NOT what 99% of RW are looking for.

- - - - -

Yes, it is your opinion.  However, you have absolutely no specific knowledge of the ladies I spend time with to make such an assertation.  Further, you have made errors of actual factual statements I have posted.

And, I have been with many women who have told me of meeting some of the pure guys who thought everything should wait until after marriage.  They were very grateful for spending time with me.  So don't be too hasty in claiming what any woman might or might not do.

[BillyB]

- - - - -

 However, you have absolutely no specific knowledge of the ladies I spend time with to make such an assertation. 

Albert,

   Didn't you say, not too long ago, you're engaged in phone sex with a few women? I know you've also mentioned the girls you hang out are highly educated but there are clear differences with the women you prefer to run with and the women other guys prefer to run with.
   I wonder how many times those girls have to get used by men who have no intention to commit before they realize how valuable those one women, wait for marriage, kind of men are?

[Jet]

The point of my line of posts was to show that even when a Russian woman is very secure in her relationship, her surroundings, and her future, there is still the opportunity for those genuine "cultural differences" (the ones Albert is certain don't exist) to show themselves now and again. I appreciate the nice comments from Bill, Gator, jb, & Vaughn, but honestly I was trying to illustrate a point, not fish for compliments  .

They were very grateful for spending time with me.  So don't be too hasty in claiming what any woman might or might not do.

I'm sure they were Albert! Face it, sexual compatability is a big part of a healthy overall relationship, and while there are undoubtedly a few "50 yr old virgins" out there, by and large men and women find it a good idea to test sexual compatability before committing to spend the rest of their lives together. Maybe I'm not all that picky, but I haven't found the need to test sexual compatability 100+ times to find an adequate match. (IIRC the one, by your account, that WAS an adequate match scared the hell out of you )

[Albert]

Albert,

   Didn't you say, not too long ago, you're engaged in phone sex with a few women? I know you've also mentioned the girls you hang out are highly educated but there are clear differences with the women you prefer to run with and the women other guys prefer to run with.
   I wonder how many times those girls have to get used by men who have no intention to commit before they realize how valuable those one women, wait for marriage, kind of men are?

- - - - -

1. Yes, I told of the phone sex.  What is your point about this?

2. I don't think there are any differences between the women I am with and the women others here are or have been with.  It is all a matter of how they respond to different guys.  I told you of the librarian type woman who was totally reserved.  Just the type that many of you think your women are.  But yet after a few weeks, she went to the ballet with no panties.

3. I am not using any women.  I give them a lot more than they give me.

4. I can commit.  You think anyone here can top my nearly 30 year marriage with no affairs?

[IAmZon]

God damn! Albert,

You were married 30 years!!!    That must make you ... 40:)

You deserve whatever attitude is being suscribed to you - enjoy it.

[Albert]

Maybe I'm not all that picky, but I haven't found the need to test sexual compatability 100+ times to find an adequate match. (IIRC the one, by your account, that WAS an adequate match scared the hell out of you )

- - - - - - -

Jet, you haven't comprehended much about my posts.  I understand how my posting makes many of you mad as he!!, but still it would be nice if you actually based your comments on an accurate reading of my posts.

[BillyB]

- - - - -
4. I can commit.  You think anyone here can top my nearly 30 year marriage with no affairs?

  My hat off to you Albert, that's quite a feat. But the issue at hand is the way you've portrayed yourself since. You claim to have been sexually active with 150 women, give or take, and can't find a single one to commit to? Most of them has been fine specimens by the way you've talked about these ladies. I'm sure there were a few women who gave you their all hoping that you'd commit to them. I have no problem with you having a "friends with benefits" relationship with the ladies as long as that's their objective too.
   The phone sex subject came up because you brought it up and of course you had to know you  were going to get different opinions. Is that a requirement of the ladies before you commit to visit them?

[Jet]

   
Just as I told you in another thread.  There are basically no differences between FSU women and western women.

There is really only one difference between FSU and western women and that has to do with body weight.

Aside from body weight, there are no differences.   

What am I missing then Albert? Just a very short cruise through some of your old posts seem to completely contradict what you're saying earlier in this thread  ???

I like women.  Therefore I seek out women wherever I am or where ever I go.
I am not 'looking for a wife' but am not adverse to marriage. 

To answer one question posted in this thread, there is absolutely no difference between women in Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Belaurus, Russia and Ukraine concerning how quickly they will have sex.

But there is a difference between these women and AW.  Takes much more time for AW to come around.

But without some sort of number, how can the value of the statements be measured.  Since I am strong and don't give a sheet, I will tell some numbers.
I have had first dates with over 150 women in FSU. Of the 150 women, I have been intimate with 37 of them . . .  yes, I do keep track of this.  And my women were aged 35-51.
I also date many women in USA and other countries that I visit.
In general, I have experienced that FSU women will have sex much more quickly than AW.  Often on first or second date and almost 100 percent by third date.
I have been so kind and to buy dildoes to give to some of my continuing girlfriends so that they could use them to keep the canal open.
The FSU women are very open about discussing sex and engaging in various forms and positions of sex.  Much more than the average AW.  I was quite amazed recently when I casually asked about different types of sex etc., to a woman who I had just had first sex with.  She proceeded to tell me in great detail about all what she wanted to do.  Even told me about things which she had never done before but wanted to try.  Some of it scared me!!
Again this is much different than my typical experience with AW who insist they are not in the mood for any kind of sex during the periods.  I think this is all part of the general attitude of FSU women that it is their job to insure that their man is satisfied sexually at all times.  It seems to be a cultural thing that is passed down from grandmothers, to mothers to daughters, etc.

After all is said and done, I personally have not found any great differences between the Russian and Ukrainian women that I have met in many of the FSU countries.

There is however a profound difference between the Ukrainian and Russian women compared to the native population in the Baltic States, for example.