What's wrong with you, Americans?

[Oosik]

Yes TP, and because of how things are I could vote with me feet on a temporary basis as well, but there is no way in heck I would give up my citizenship, or serve in another nations military.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/elsewhere/journalist/story/0,7792,1570754,00.html
Don't Want to Live Like a Refugee (10/12)
Three years after moving back to Russia , Alexander Razumovskaya still hasn't been given the citizenship he was promised. He and millions of other ethnic Russians moved back to Russia from other Soviet Republics after the USSR broke up in 1991. They were promised citizenship or permanent registration. But many of them still haven't received it. Why? The local authorities who are supposed to process them find it too lucrative to leave them in legal limbo. They refuse to give them registration, then "fine" them for not having it. Those without citizenship are also taxed 30 percent of their income, instead of the 13 percent citizens pay.

[Oosik]

As far as why we have arsenals at home, the main purpose we have this right is so that we can resist our government. Individual ownership of guns is the ultimate limit to gov't power. This is why so many gov'ts take this away from people, and why so many massacres occured following government gun registration/confiscation campaigns.

Of course we realize that many people have been brainwashed into believing that gov't is their mommy, and one should never resist mommy. After all, she only wants what's best for her children, yes?

[Ste]

I'm British, 44, and I've never even SEEN a gun other then an air-rifle. And my brother accidently shot a girl in the eye with that.

UK police aren't normally armed but some are. Including the patrol officers in Radford, Nottingham because it's so bad there.

My view on this is simple. Guns should only be possessed by people who are trained to use them and in addition have a need to use them. So Soldiers really.

Ste

[TigerPaws]

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[/size][/color][color="blue"][size="4"]Ste,[/size][/color] [color="blue"][size="4"] [/size][/color]  [color="blue"][size="4"]

 Typical European mentality, firearms  are your last best line of defense, never be the last person to beat your sword  into a plow otherwise you run the risk of being the slave the one who owns the  sword.

[/size][/color][color="blue"][size="4"] Reality check firearms are as easy  to get as drugs (sadly) and in many cases less expensive so all of the bad people  have firearms, you and all of the law enforcement in the world are not going to  stop that. Law enforcement can not protect you from the bad people it is up to  you to defend yourself, so you can either be a sheep or a wolf.

 Your choice Ste,  die on your knees like a slave or fight like Hell and stand a  chance.[/size][/color]

[BC]

Oosik,

Politics in a way is a lot like statistics.. we can pick and choose to show the results we want.

Yes Italy did implement registration of who and when someone uses a publicly (anonymous) internet point at hotels etc.  We also show our passport when we register at hotels and copies are routinely registered with the police.  We also register with authorities where we reside.  This inet access aspect is new but nothing surprising.

I used to also think that the US was better in this aspect, but considering the informal and largely unregulated personal information exchanges in the US I now know that it is not.  I tell you what.. give me some minimal personal data and I'll give you mine.  What you want to bet I can get your telephone records and you can't get mine.. .. how about your credit history, maybe even your credit card purchases, like the last hotel you stayed in or when and where you last filled your car.. your DMV record and criminal history.. who knows what I can get for $19.95 on the net.

When it comes to personal privacy what I can find out about you unoficially in the US is a whole heck of a lot more than you could ever find out about me here.. official or otherwise.

I'm quite comfortable with the situation.. are you?

[Ste]

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[/size][/color][color="blue"][size="4"]Ste,[/size][/color] [color="blue"][size="4"][/size][/color] [color="blue"][size="4"]

Typical European mentality, firearms  are your last best line of defense, neverbe the last person to beat your sword  into a plow otherwise you run the risk ofbeing the slave the one who owns the  sword.

[/size][/color][color="blue"][size="4"] Reality check firearms are as easy  to get as drugs (sadly) and in many cases less expensive so all of the bad people  have firearms, you and all of the law enforcement in the world are not going to  stop that. Law enforcement can not protect you from the bad people it is up to  you to defend yourself, so you can either be a sheep or a wolf.

Your choice Ste,  die on your knees like a slave or fight like Hell and stand a  chance.[/size][/color]

Steady on lad, steady on!

Like I said I've never seen a copper with a gun or anybody with a gun, so why do I need a gun? If I got one next door would want one, the crims from the rough estate would get some, the coppers will no doubt get the best and get trained to use them. End result is everyone's got guns but of course not many are fired because they are a deterrent. Like yeah. Sooner or later one will go off in someones face.

Living in an environment where every untrained amateur is carrying a lethal weapon is not my idea of feeling safe and secure......

At the end of the day it's just my opinion but I just wonder where else in the world guns are legal? I've no idea? Is it just the USA?

Ste

[TigerPaws]

[color="blue"][size="4"]Ste,

 Police with the best firearms? Now there is a joke, better trained? Depends on the country, state, city or county some offer excellent training and some just about none. I could take you to a 10 day course offered by some of the finest firearms instructors in the world you would be better able to handle a hand gun than most police officers.
 As for needing one, well like carrying a condom it is better to have one and not need it than not have one when the need arises.
 
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[BC]

My take is not so much about guns/no guns but to as what extent they are controlled and the qualifications of folks to use/keep them - and how they should be kept out of reach of those that are not.  The responsibility that goes along with ownership is what counts.

Sure criminals will always be able to get a gun.. somewhere somehow.. but I don't think the Constitution had kids or criminals in mind..  The intent was defense of the Country and not the individual imho.

[Oosik]

Ste, the whole "trained to use them" argument is used to keep people from figuring out how easy and safe they really are. As you have not been exposed to them, you buy the argument because to you it seems very logical.

But to us in the US, many of us have great experience with them. I personally fire more training rounds in a year than many cops. In Baltimore, they get 160 rounds for target practice.

 I've also had a friend who was on the US army pistol team teach me some pointers, which I am perfectly capable of passing on. Thanks to our gun culture, most men joining the military already are very familiar with firearms, and we all share knowledge with each other.

There is a name for nations where only the police and military have guns, BTW, they are called "Police States".

[TigerPaws]

                                                                                                                                           

[BC]

Tiger,

Ok.. strike my last sentence.. the rest stands.. I admit I am not that familiar with Constitutional law.

btw.. which country has the largest percentage of population that own guns?

Where would you feel safer there or in the US?

What is the reason for the difference in crime rates and murders where guns are involved between this country and the US?

Don't want to start a pro/con gun debate here but something is fundamentaly wrong.

[Oosik]

BC,
The clear intent of the founding fathers, based on their published writings and archived letters, it that the right to bear arms is an individual right, and that the reasons for that right is to defend yourself against a tyrannical government, and to defend yourself against criminal behavior. The founding fathers clearly expected that guns may some day be the only way for the people to keep the gov't from running roughshod over the people.

If we pay a price for that in the form of accidental shootings, a few freak-outs at schools and post offices, so be it.

But even with all our guns, violent crime is dropping here, and rising in places like the UK. Heck, if guns were more widely available in russia, maybe the mafia there wouldn't be so powerful.

[TigerPaws]

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[/size][/color][color="blue"][size="4"]BC,[/size][/color] [color="blue"][size="4"] [/size][/color]  [color="blue"][size="4"]

 First let me say I am sorry for  jumping all over you, I had you confused with someone else who is an American  living in Europe. You are not expected to know about our history, constitution  and laws. America was founded on the premise of taking care of yourself and not  relying on government, that government was to be subordinate to the will of the  people and defend the individual. Our country was founded because of English  oppression and firearms have been part of our collective culture sense that  time, we are a country of individuals where you make it on your own, you have  to rely on yourself not the government. That goes for being responsible for your  own self defense.[/size][/color] [color="blue"][size="4"] [/size][/color]  [color="blue"][size="4"]

 As for countries where firearms have  been banned, just look to Australia, what a mess, the government took all of the  guns away and crime has run amok. Here in America where the individual has been  allowed have a permit to carry a firearm (concealed carry permit) the crime rate  has been steadily dropping. The liberals do not like the facts but an armed  populace is safer, of course governments like unarmed peasants.[/size][/color]

[Oosik]

Tiger,

...What is the reason for the difference in crime rates and murders where guns are involved between this country and the US?...

First off, you have to be intelligent enough to avoid circular arguments.
Why separate crime rates with guns from crimes committed with other weapons?
I bet more people are killed with pasta forks in Italy vs. the US, what does that tell us?

Compare crime rates in UK, Australia with the US. You are less likely to be a victim of violent crime here than there, and they have almost total bans on handguns. As a matter of record, our cities and states with the least restrictive gun laws have the lowest crime, and their crime rates have been dropping faster than the national average.

Most of our crime comes from one ethnic subgroup, and without them, our crime rates would make the US look like disneyland compared to other overwhelmingly white countries. We have less than 12% of our population committing 54% of all non-negligent homocides. If we had an ethnic makeup similar to most european nations, where would our crime be, even with all our guns?  Lower than you could stand to admit, and people would need another theory to explain gun crime.

[TigerPaws]

[Ste]

Guys, lets not quote figures and stats and 'crime is dropping' we all know that they are massaged one way then to other for whatever purpose they are required for.

I'm gonna back down from this cos I don't know enough about it, only what I feel and my experience here in industrial UK and in rural Scotland where lived for the best part of a decade.

Gubs (was gonna edit gubs but I'm leaving it - abt naturally - I've got a gub - which movie?)  just don't sit well in the UK, yeah we know people have them but really, they aren't in the news that much here, and although there are enough stories of them being used, I feel they are still very rare.

I'm wondering if this feeling coincides with the nervous twitchiness I felt in America, especially when I hit yet another home run at baseball into someones yard (would I be shoot be for retrieving the ball?). Score was Old English Patriots 19, New England Patriots 19 - honourable British draw, no extra inning or whatever u call it.

Perhaps we should call it a draw here?[1]

Ste

[1] Except I won really......

[BC]

Tiger,

No need to apologize.. I am an American living in Europe schooled in American schools.  Just haven't done any in-depth analysis of the Constitution lately, or simply getting too old to remember everything.  I have read it from time to time and tend to take it more in the context of the times in which it was written.

My post was more along the lines of qualification, safety and responsibilities associated with ownership. not pro/con debate.

The country I quizzed you on is Switzerland.  Just found an interesting article:

http://www.stephenhalbrook.com/articles/guns-crime-swiss.html

[Ste]

Google is not ur friend - look at this!!

-------------------------------------------------------

Comparison of U.S. gun homicides to other industrialized countries:
In 1998 (the most recent year for which this data has been compiled), handguns murdered:
3 people in Germany
1 people in Canada
5 people in Australia
9 people in Japan
0 people in England and Wales, and
11,789,347 people in the United States

Wow!

Ste

[BC]

Oosik,

When considering circular arguments I'm sure your circles are not only quite small in size but small minded as well.  Any smaller and you will soon be talking out loud to yourself.

Forks are forks.. there are no special 'pasta forks' that I know of.. Just visited the US not long ago.. they all look the same to me.

Get real and learn to use a fork instead of foot.

[Oosik]

Guys, unless you are profoundly stupid you will understand this point:

It does not matter is you are killed or threatened with a gun, a knife, or any other impliment that the attacker and you both reasonably expect will kill you.

Don't compare gun killings, because duh, we have more guns, they will be the weapon of choice. Compare ALL killings, with all weapons. Compare people afraid to leave their houses at night, or people who hide under their beds because someone is ransacking their house and they have no way to stop them.

You are more likely to be a victim of violent crime (all categories) in England, Wales, Scotland, Australia than you are in the US. Even the mayor of London admitted that he felt safer walking the streets in NYC than in London, and the crime stats prove his feeling right.

But then the whole purpose of this thread was for Ellen to get people bashing the US and then to get people to defend it, and I guess I feel like a sucker for being involved.

[BC]

Oosik,

btw regarding your US vs Europe crime rate by ethnic group ideas.. if you think Europe is all white you have absolutely no clue.. maybe you have been reading (dreaming) about Germany from the early 30's to mid 40's?

[corp]

Google is not ur friend - look at this!!

-------------------------------------------------------

Comparison of U.S. gun homicides to other industrialized countries:
In 1998 (the most recent year for which this data has been compiled), handguns murdered:
3 people in Germany
1 people in Canada
5 people in Australia
9 people in Japan
0 people in England and Wales, and
11,789,347 people in the United States

Wow!

Ste

Ste, thanks for that nice bit of homework now I would be interested to see what those numbers look like for..

Murder by all type of guns instead of just hand guns. (the USA has all the hand guns).
Murder rates regardless of method.


To read the provided stats, one would think almost no one is killed in Europe.

[BC]

Corp,

Must have been a copy paste bug..

Think this is the info Ste referred to:

http://www.ichv.org/Statistics.htm

[Oosik]

Oosik,

btw regarding your US vs Europe crime rate by ethnic group ideas.. if you think Europe is all white you have absolutely no clue.. maybe you have been reading (dreaming) about Germany from the early 30's to mid 40's?

what % of the UK is nonwhite?
what % of italy?

I lived in Germany as a kid, at that time, I didn't see any arabs (I know this changed) and the only blacks were US military there.

I predict that as your muslim populations approach US black and illegal alien populations, your crime will be worse than ours, because we have yet to lose our national identity, even as many leftists are trying like heck to cause us to lose it.

[Admin]

I predict that as your muslim populations approach US black and illegal alien populations, your crime will be worse than ours, because we have yet to lose our national identity, even as many leftists are trying like heck to cause us to lose it.

Oosik,

It seems we have been down this track before.

I will NOT tolerate racist or ethnic slurs/insults. While you may not see your post as that, I do.

This topic has been teetering on the edge of what I feel is acceptable the entire day - and this post just pushed it over.

The topic remains open - for now - but to EVERYONE, please refrain from any ethnic or racist content.

- Dan