Trip Report: Tver, Russia

[av8or1]

Ok I'm confused.

Did you switch these girls names around? In your report you are chasing this girl 'Irina' and your interpreter is 'Olga'. At the very end you are missing 'Olga' and show us a bunch of photos of 'Olga', who is beautiful by the way. This 'Olga' is 'Irina' throughout most of your report, right?

Or do I need to go back to sleep?

Nevermind, I just caught that last part about the names. I do need to catch some more sleep. Best of luck!

Jooky,

Yeah, I changed all of the names of the women in my TR to protect the innocent, so to speak.  I thought I made note of that in my intro, but I could have omitted it accidentally.  Suffice it to say that my interpreter's real name is not Olga.

Best to all,

Jerry

[Jooky]

Jerry,

I have a question. Originally you offered Natasha at Tver Romance to set you up on individual dates with a few women and she refused. Did she give you a reason? I think it's mighty strange on her part. Was she afraid that you might take away one of her main attractions?

I guess it's a good thing that Natasha did refuse. All's well that ends well eh?

[av8or1]

I'm not taking anything away from Jerry or his fine trip report. However, when someone takes an extreme position, as did Jerry with this overstatement, I feel it does need to be questioned, and so I did.

Sigh.  And with all of my caveats this still happens.  Look Darth, with all of the same due respect back to you I don't think my position was/is extreme.  I fully admitted that it was an oversimplification.  I further stated that it didn't apply to everyone or even come close to that.

Jerry--it seems to me you do jump to conclusions too quickly, as you did with your negative comment about women from Ukraine. <"if you're looking for a trophy wife and divorce doesn't bother you, go to Ukraine"> And ditto with your negative comments about Richard and his pricing, which I still think is clearly stated on his site. And as you did with your initial support for Tver Romance in the other thread.

Well I'd say the same thing about you Darth, you jump to conclusions too quickly IMO.  But whatever, who cares?  Besides, I've been doing this for over three years now and have met hundreds of women from several countries in the FSU including some in the "Stans" and my opinion expressed in my previous post was/is based on that experience.  I'd hardly call 3 years experience "jumping to conclusions too quickly", but whatever.

I don't care what's on Richard's website, damnit, for the last time the thing that all of you who have criticized me about my initial commentary on that issue have MISSED is that he told me the price was $50 BY PRIVATE EMAIL BEFORE I WENT TO TVER.  How much clearer do I have to make that?  We had agreed to this price BEFORE I LEFT.  So it doesn't matter what's on his website, it doesn't matter what has been said on these boards in the past and it doesn't matter about "misunderstandings" which there weren't any.  It certainly doesn't matter about a measely $7 either.  What mattered to me was the CHANGE WITHOUT NOTIFICATION, no matter what the change was.  For some reason several of you on this board just don't get that and I can't understand why you have failed to understand it.  Maybe that kinda thing doesn't matter to you, I dunno.  But it matters to me, and even if you don't agree with that you should respect my point of view.  But hell, I also understand that these things happen and Richard and I have buried the hatchet anyway, so why you bring it up...well it's beyond me.

My support of TverRomance in the initial thread on this whole subject was based on the information I had at the time.  All of the critics of TR had not actually BEEN THERE and USED the agency.  Again, I don't see why you have such a disconnect on this issue, but whatever.  Since then I have been in the city and seen their service first hand.  So now I can comment on it with the voice of experience to back me up.  But as others have said, I don't wanna turn this into an agency war again, so I'll just let it be.

We all have our own ideas and perspectives, and I by no means have any problem with your personal views.  But stereotypes bug me, and I have to respond when I see them repeated.

Uh, excuse me but my statements are hardly a stereotype.  They are based on my experience.  Unfortunately, most of the women I have met in the Ukraine did not have the personal character that the women I have met in Russia had.  As I have stated repeatedly now, there HAVE BEEN exceptions.  But the general rule that I asserted holds true, IN MY EXPERIENCE.

My first Russian girlfriend was from Tver.  She rattled off the same garbage about girls from Ukraine being "cheap."   Later I found out she was all wrong.

Sorry that happened to you.  What made you find out that she was "all wrong"?  If you don't mind sharing that is...

Seems to be that girls from Russia are more stubborn and arrogant than girls from Ukraine.  Another stereotype?    LOL

Hahaha!  That's a good one.  Well, no actually.  Although some of the women I have met from Russia possessed that sense of elite-ism, most didn't and my Olga sure doesn't.  Similar to ScottinCrimea's situation, she has some family in Ukraine and has visited them before.  She told me she liked it there.  I had wanted us to go to Kiev for New Years as I mentioned and she was up for it, but again, I decided that it would be better to meet her mom this next time around, especially if I end up proposing....

Anyway, thanks for the positive comments Darth.  I don't mean to jump back atcha too much, but I don't like stereotypes any more than you do.  And when someone accuses me of that, I feel compelled to tell my side of the story.

Best to all,

Jerry

[jinx13]

 Jerry,

 Great T/R and a nice ending too, sounds like you and Olga are off to a nice start. She likes you, you like her, New Year's will be a great time to get closer to her, and hopefully meet her family, that's a big step. Is it possible for you to stay in Tver a little longer than one week, maybe two? I understand work requirements, but it would be nice if you could spend more quality time with her, and this time you wouldn't have to worry about dating all those other women, you can concentrate on Olga, and build that relationship. Let us know how everything goes, and I wish you the best of luck.

Jooky,

 I think you missed the last paragraph of Jerry's T/R, he tells that Irina's real name is Olga. It is a bit confusing because of the interpreter's name being Olga too, but hey I think 3 out of 4 women in Russia are named Olga  

Darth,

 Use the force, and try to lighten up a little. I read Jerry's comments about Russian and Ukrainian women and was not offended even though my girlfriend is from Ukraine. I actually agree with him to an extent, I have been to both countries, and there does seem to be a few more 'desperate' women in Ukraine, that would marry you for the GC, and not real love. That doesn't mean there aren't a lot of great girls with family values in Ukraine, it's just a general stereotype that unfortunatley happens to be true in many cases.

[av8or1]

Jerry,

I have a question. Originally you offered Natasha at Tver Romance to set you up on individual dates with a few women and she refused. Did she give you a reason? I think it's mighty strange on her part. Was she afraid that you might take away one of her main attractions?

I guess it's a good thing that Natasha did refuse. All's well that ends well eh?

Jooky,

Good Q.  The answer is that she refused my offer to have individual meetings with the two women in her agency in whom I had an interest because, and I quote, "...it is contradictory to our policies."  Hmmmmm...I didn't quite know what to make of it.  After I posted that result on RWD I thought Richard from TA had the best take on it which was that it was about the money.  But who knows?

Yeah I think it was good that Natasha refused because I was so busy as it was that to meet other women would have been considerably difficult.  It could have been done I think, after all I did have some free time in the mornings but only a couple of hours maximum.  And the date would have to have began around 10 am, which most women over there don't do, as you're familiar with I'm sure.  So hey...

I did meet another guy from the USA who was there about the same time as me.  I knew he was going to be around and was using TverRomance.  I spotted him on a date in Old Reliable my last full day in Tver.  I walked up and introduced myself.  We said hi and chatted for all of 30 seconds, but he was on the date and I didn't wanna interrupt, so the conversation was short.  He didn't have a happy expression on his face, but it could have just been because of the date he was on, I dunno.  I had wanted to get his opinion about the agency but I didn't run into him again.  I've got his contact info around here somewhere though and I plan to call him within a week or so.  'Will let y'all know what I find out...

Best to all,

Jerry

[Gator]

Jerry,

Congratulations on finding the lovely and sweet Olga.  She does look sweet and your description is very tender.

As I stated earlier, great report.  A model to follow for the power dating types.

I do not think Albert would give you a “Thumbs Up” for waiting until you were sure and then making everything special, as it should be with the woman who could be your future wife. 

About New Year’s, staying in Tver with her family sounds like a wonderful time.  When you come up for air, I recommend that you take 2-3 days and visit Moscow.  That city is decorated gloriously, and it is hopping for 7-9 straight days with everyone in a festive mood.  And there is much to do such as a free outdoor (yes, outdoor) concert near the Red Square in the early evening each night.  And maybe traffic will be acceptable (that city is rapidly approaching “unlivable” IMO)

Some questions:

1.   If all three Tver agencies had an "ala carte" service menu (such as with Richard’s agency), would you have spread yourself fairly equally among the three?
2.   What was the total price for the "full service" package excluding travel?
3.   How does this compare with your Ukraine trip (or was it ala carte)?
4.   Evidently you did not write any women before arriving in Tver.  If you had, you would not have wasted time with some women having fatal flaws:  smoker, no babies, etc.  However, you would have had to spend some time with correspondence.  Is it a wash?
5.   The Moscow woman who stormed out when you refused to go to a high-end restaurant.  Did she know that your meeting would only be one hour?  Perhaps she was angry after making the fairly long trip and dreaming of a relaxed evening with you only to realize that you had little time for her.  These RW have pride.
6.   How much time did you spend in selecting the women to meet (reviewing profiles, etc.)?
7.   Of the total number of women you met, what percentage had sufficient potential for follow-up meetings IF you had an additional week?
8.   You mentioned meeting only one other man using the agency while there - is this low level of business because of the winter?

I have spent a lot of time with many Russian women and with many Ukraine women.  Personally, I can not tell any difference – the individual differences predominate.  There is possibly one difference – some of the Russian women do not respect Ukraine women, especially those who dress flashy.  In contrast, no Ukrainian woman stereotyped RW.

[Rvrwind]

Well now ya' gone & done it!

I don't care what's on Richard's website, damnit, for the last time the thing that all of you who have criticized me about my initial commentary on that issue have MISSED is that he told me the price was $50 BY PRIVATE EMAIL BEFORE I WENT TO TVER.  How much clearer do I have to make that?  We had agreed to this price BEFORE I LEFT.  So it doesn't matter what's on his website, it doesn't matter what has been said on these boards in the past and it doesn't matter about "misunderstandings" which there weren't any.

Okay now there ya go, now the story has changed. When I originally read this I had to go back & do some re-reading because when I originally answered to this I answeed it in regards to the phone call in Tver, now you're saying we had an agreement by e mail before you made your trip.
I don't want to do this or to sound petty but that just isn't so & I just re-read the e mail you are referring to & nowhere in there was there anything about an agreement between you & I. I only commented that the agencies in Tver were cooperating on the level of taking walkin's from other agencies & the cost was $50.00. At that time with the current exchange it was $50.00. But we had no formal agreement & my website clearly states 1500 roubles. That was back in September for crying out loud. The exchange has changed a lot since then.
I also read the rest of the emails we exchanged (I keep copies of all correspondence, now I know why, LOL) & nowhere is there any mention of an agreement between you & me. In fact at the time I thought you were coming as our client & then you switched to Tver Romance & then to LTP. As at the time I thought you were to be our client I gave you the figure in US $'s as that is what they charge, I do not. Had you asked me what we charge I would have told you what I told you in Tver, 1500 roubles, but in fact I thought as you were asking me all the questions & I thought you were coming as our client, I assuemed, wrongly I see, that you actually read my website.
Your right its not the point that its $7.00 & it also isn't the point that we bury the hatchet. The point is that it is left as me looking like a liar when I am not & did not lie or mislead you.

[jinx13]

 Well, i'm sure Jerry will answer Richard soon enough, and I hope there isn't going to be some big arguement about $7, but I gotta say Richard your response and your policy sounds a little strange to me.

 If somebody sent me an e-mail that said "Agencies in Tver were cooperating on the level of taking walkin's from other agencies & the cost was $50.00."  I would think the price was $50, whether we had an agreement or not.

 I have only used two agencies but both of them quoted me prices in U.S. $$$, and the price didn't change when I got there. Does anybody else have experience with this, prices being changed because of currency conversion? It doesn't sound too common, but maybe I'm wrong.

 

[Rvrwind]

Jump to my next post!

[tim 360]

Thanks for a really excellent trip report Jerry,  it was a very good read, extensive and thank you for taking the considerable time it must have taken to write it all down in such detail and posting it.  I am sure many have and in the future will enjoy your TR.  It appears you finally met someone you "click" with quite well and I do wish you the very best in that endeavour...you definitely did earn it.

I think the dreaded $7 thing seems to be a very slight thing.  You and Richard both speak and write English quite well so rather than a translation glitch...it appears to be a miscomm.  Sh$t happens.  No big deal.

The RW/UAW thingie.....its your personal viewpoint based upon YOUR experiences and that in and of itself is the great disclaimer there.  Someone else with different experiences will have a different viewpoint from yours.  Each persons experiences are weighted by the limitations imposed by the sample of women one meets. 

Best of luck,  tim360

[KenC]

Jerry,
Thanks for sharing your story with all of us.  It was a wonderful read and brought back many memories for me.  I didn't do the "power dating" thing like you did (and masterfully, I might add) but I was in Tver for Newyears 1999.  Keep in mind that Russian Newyears is like our Christmas; a time for families.  I gave my future in laws a Christmas basket with salami, cheeses, wine, champaign, candies etc.  I drove my interpreters crazy with this idea and the future in laws were puzzled by the custom.  (But it got me an invite to a family dinner which is what I wanted any way! ) (You're welcome for the idea)  Plan on watching a Putin speech right at midnight too.  Also Newyear's day gift giving is not quite as generous as American Christmas (But who is that crazy except us?) and it is more token gifts given.  But expectations may be higher for you being a rich American!  You will have a great time no doubt.

I have to admit that I cheated and looked at your photos before I read your last post.  I was amazed that you ended up with the interpreter!! (Until I read your post about Irina really being Olga)

I find it funny that things really have not changed so much in 8 years at LTP and Tver since I was there.  They struck me as a sincere company then as they did to you now.  Perfect? No way, but very sincere.  I think the root of that comes from Nadya the office manager and "mother hen" of LTP.

Just for the record, I now agree with your take on that Richard's fee should have been $50 only from the way he communicated it to you in the email.  I will be interested in your answers to Gator's questions too.  Best of luck to you buddy.
KenC

[av8or1]

I hope it doesn't turn into an argument over 7 bucks either because ain't no problem I can PayPal it to him in 5 minutes. The point is I look like I reneged on a deal & lied to the man, which I don't believe I did.

Richard,

I won't get into it with you, it isn't about the money (HOW many times am I gonna have to say that???) so you won't need to go to the paypal website anytime soon.

As for our agreement, let's just agree to disagree over it.  I know what we said and I know what you told me.  I won't budge on this issue, it's the source of my contention.  However, I have buried that contention and I hope you have also.  Life is too short and as others have said, sh*t happens.  All good.  Hope to see ya when I am there for New Years.

Best to all,

Jerry

[av8or1]

Gator,

Thank you for the compliments, the feedback from you, Jinx13, Kuda, KenC, tim360, Scott, Jooky, Darth and others are much appreciated.  I'll pass y'alls well wishes onto Olga the next time I speak with her.

Now on to your questions.  Though it'll make the post a little long, I'll handle each one individually.

Some questions:

1.   If all three Tver agencies had an "ala carte" service menu (such as with Richard’s agency), would you have spread yourself fairly equally among the three?

In theory yes, in practice no.  In the end, LTP had far more women I was interested in meeting than the others (2 in TA and 2 in TR), so although I would have met other women through the different agencies, in the Tver scenario it wouldn't have been "fairly equally."  Now in a place like Kherson where there are a fair number of women in the different agencies in whom I'd be interested, it's a different story.

2.   What was the total price for the "full service" package excluding travel?

Well that's a private matter but what I will tell you is that LTP has a program where you pay $125/day and you receive the flat, unlimited meetings with the women of your choosing and an(a couple of) interpreter(s) for 12 hours (10 am - 10 pm) in that day.  For $200/day you get the interpreter(s) for 24 hours in that day if you need them, which you won't.  I chose the first option and was there 7 days, so you can do the math on what I paid.   'Course LTP has an airport transfer fee and an interpreter fee for those transfers (that is if you want an interpreter to meet you in the airport when you arrive/go with you when you leave) that you have to factor into things.  $75/$15 each way.  I did that too.

3.   How does this compare with your Ukraine trip (or was it ala carte)?

All of my Ukraine trips have been a la carte, save the very first time I was in the FSU, which was on a tour with European Connections.  Can't recommend any tour like that, though Turbo might disagree with me.  This is another reason I prefer the Ukraine, just wish I could switch the women!   Bwahahahaha!  That oughta light a fire under some of you! lol

4.   Evidently you did not write any women before arriving in Tver.  If you had, you would not have wasted time with some women having fatal flaws:  smoker, no babies, etc.  However, you would have had to spend some time with correspondence.  Is it a wash?

Well your first assertion is not correct.  I DID write to women before I left, unfortunately not very many of them responded.  It seems that only a few women in Tver believe in writing letters.  Most won't correspond with you until after they meet you and decide that they like you.  We've all heard this standard stereotype WRT RW/UW, but in Tver at least, it's fairly pronounced.  This is partly why I didn't know about the fatal flaws, but the other reality that you're leaving out here, and I'm surprised that you're doing that because of your experience level with this thing, is that the women will often "lie" on their profiles, especially about the smoker thing.  Lena, the smoker in my TR, had "No" in her profile under that question, I know because I looked at it TWICE when I got back to the office after the date ended.  The other issue of not wanting children isn't really covered in a profile, the women only answer the question of "do you have children?" - very few agencies or websites pose the question of "do you want to have (more) children?" like you'll find on match.com, Yahoo personals, etc.  In these reasons is where you'll find why I spent time with women who weren't compatible with me during my trip to Tver.

5.   The Moscow woman who stormed out when you refused to go to a high-end restaurant.  Did she know that your meeting would only be one hour?  Perhaps she was angry after making the fairly long trip and dreaming of a relaxed evening with you only to realize that you had little time for her.  These RW have pride.

Well to be fair and honest with ya, I thought about the pride issue and felt bad for several minutes after she left.  However, Nadya and the rest of the staff assured me that she was an overly-demanding woman who is quite difficult to please and who makes unreasonable requests of men.  But more importantly Gator are the facts that we had 2.5 hours, not 1 as you mentioned, and it wasn't a "high-end restaurant" where she wanted to go.  Olga (the fake name for my interpreter, not my girlfriend!) told me that the place wasn't expensive, just far away on the outskirts of town.  Supposedly it would have taken 20 - 30 minutes to get to by taxi and Olga didn't think we had time to do all of that.  Olga suggested Fortune (a more expensive restaurant in Tver, supposedly the most expensive, though I doubt that) to her, but she refused.  So it couldn't have been about the "high-end" thing.  Finally, regarding the "fairly long trip" from Moscow to Tver, she didn't do it only to meet with me.  You see, she is another one of these women who live in Tver but who work in Moscow.  So she was coming home from her work week.  So your last assertion doesn't seem to be true either, though maybe there was something like that in her mind.  Hell I even asked Nadya about that but she shot it down.  Maybe Nadya was doing that just for my benefit, yeah that's possible, but not likely.

6.   How much time did you spend in selecting the women to meet (reviewing profiles, etc.)?

I spent a significant amount of time reviewing the profiles on the website before going to Tver.  Heck, I sent two versions of a "wish list" (still don't like that term) to both Marc Dayton AND Nadya the office manager.  Each of them got back to me with their opinions on the women in my list and Marc even spent a good two hours on the phone with me (in total, not in one session) going over each of them to give me his opinions.  So yeah, my time spent in this area was considerable and we haven't even gotten into the letters I sent out to the women announcing that I was coming.  A couple of them responded, but not many.  As for my catalog inspection when I was "on site", I probably spent a total of an hour or so.  But it was far easier because when I would find a woman who met the basics of what I am looking for all I had to do was raise the book and ask Nadya about her.  Nadya would give me a basic thumbs up or thumbs down and I would go from there.

7.   Of the total number of women you met, what percentage had sufficient potential for follow-up meetings IF you had an additional week?

Uggghhh.  That's a good question.  Let me think a minute...ok.  To arrive at the percentage I think you're looking for, if we take the number of women who I did meet or who I would have liked to have met more than once versus the total number of women who I met on a first date, the number would be around ... wait let me get the calculator app up ... ok 38%.

8.   You mentioned meeting only one other man using the agency while there - is this low level of business because of the winter?

I think that is part of it, yeah.  But the feeling I got while being there is that Tver is simply not an often-travelled destination for men looking to find a foreign woman.  There's good reason for that in a way because there's not so much to do by comparison to say Moscow, St. Petersburg, Kiev, Odessa, you get the picture.  Back during the heyday of this industry LTP did a huge volume of business.  But in today's market things have slowed considerably and the things that will still attract men to places like Kiev, Odessa, etc. just don't exist in Tver.  Compound that with the ease of travelling to Ukraine and it's little wonder why so few men come here anymore.

I have spent a lot of time with many Russian women and with many Ukraine women.  Personally, I can not tell any difference – the individual differences predominate.  There is possibly one difference – some of the Russian women do not respect Ukraine women, especially those who dress flashy.  In contrast, no Ukrainian woman stereotyped RW.

Glad you have had a more positive experience with Ukrainian women than I have!

Best to all,

Jerry

[Gator]

Good answers.  Thanks for taking the time.

The $125/day seems reasonable, especially for high energy men such as yourself seeing 4-5/day.

Considering your elaboration of the Moscow woman story, you should not have felt bad - she just wanted to take control.

About truthful profiles, I have been lucky I guess.  Only one smoker who was able to not smoke the first day but succumbed to her habit on the second.  Universally all failed my definition of "social drinking."  Each who checked "social" could drink me under the table.  I asked why "social" and they responded that "I never drink alone."  Those who checked "never drink" would have 1-2 glasses of wine.

Again, congratulations on finding sweet Olga.

[KenC]

It is my experience that as long as a RW doesn't chain smoke, they consider themselves as nonsmokers.  Just a few cigs a day doesn't count in their minds.  Same with drinking.  If they only drink wine, or beer and not the hard stuff "regularly", then they consider themselves nondrinkers.
KenC

[av8or1]

It is my experience that as long as a RW doesn't chain smoke, they consider themselves as nonsmokers.  Just a few cigs a day doesn't count in their minds.  Same with drinking.  If they only drink wine, or beer and not the hard stuff "regularly", then they consider themselves nondrinkers.
KenC

Ken,

Yeah I gotta agree with you on these counts.  My interpreter would light up every once in a while too but claimed to not be a "regular" at it.  'Course she got more "regular" as the week went by, which became a running joke between us because I kept asking her if I was causing her so much stress that she needed to increase her tabacco intake.  She was/is a regular hell-giver, so all I ever got for a response was "da", the kinda thing that you know someone said it when joking but you still turn your head twice at them because it makes you wonder if they were half serious.

Thanks Gator for the feedback and compliments!

Best to all,

Jerry

[Rvrwind]

Okay, here it comes!!!
I have done some thinking & with some urging from another I have decided to take the "customer is always right' approach.
I will refund Jerry's $7.00 if he requests it.
I will openly admit that I should have been more clear in my dealings & made sure everybody involved fully understood.
In that regard, right here on RWD, I am going to put in writing, because of the foul up with Jerry, that any & all members of RWD that come to Tver Angels between now & the last day of May 2007, will get their introductions for $50.00 no matter what the exchange rate at the time. This applies only to veriviable members of RWD & only to introductions!

[av8or1]

Gang,

I got some initial feedback from the guy I know who used TverRomance.  Apparently he was quite interested in a couple of the women in the agency who actually live in Moscow.  Well guess what, these ladies didn't show up to meet him!  Hahaha!  Instead he met several other women who he was less interested in but I think he may have found someone by the end, dunno yet.  I'm gonna try to talk to him first hand within the next few days and see if I can get more info.  'Sounds like Richard called it correctly, it's the ol' bait-n-switch routine!

Best to all,

Jerry

[START2]

Jerry,
  Sounds like you had a whirlwind of a trip. Have most of your other trips been just a week in length?
  Olga seems to be your choice at this time and as discerning as you were I was surprised to hear you thinking about a possible proposal so soon if the next trip is successfull. I could be wrong in my calculations, but you have only spent several hours with her at this point. Even though you fought back initial feelings for her, in hindsight, should you have spent more time with her? or wish you would have?
   I noticed you said that if you made plans ahead of time you would not break those plans as it would be in bad form. Were most of your meetings pre-arranged before you arrived? The reason I asked is, you made dates while there but the lovely Olga was available but you seemed to be coy with her. Obviously you're not new to this, and have taken your time, and was smart enough to realize that most men/women know that within the first 10-30 minutes of meeting if there's a connection and bail instead of wasting time. Have you learned this along the way? I think a good lesson for those who have no experience. Of course that's not a 100% proven method. Sometimes 2 people can develop if the initial meeting starts slow. Maybe that's why it's recommended that one doesn't put pressure on ones self to hurry the process along.
  After 3 years of doing this, have you ever felt like you were getting tired of THE search? Have you ever felt like you needed to go ahead and get down to business so to speak? What other qualities did you find endearing about Olga?
   You had an age range of the woman you'd prefer, but was there a specific reason you kept compromising that preference? Maybe that older women already had kids or something else? I think it's possible that a young woman might not want kids this year, but maybe in a few years that would change. Are you wanting to start a new marriage with kids soon to follow?
  Ther was one older woman, I think Tanya, that caught your fancy, just in case Olga does not work out at New Yr., are you staying in touch with her? Sort of a back-up. Have you considered that?
    In your opinion, what would at this point or in your next meeting with Olga,  seal or break the deal? You seem very articulate and grounded in your criteria for a wife?
   I found your TR quite interesting and fast moving and I hope you don't mind the  questions. I think this subject begs a few questions as do most threads in this section. 
    New Years is the only time of year I haven't experienced in FSU. I envy you and your opportunity. I also wish you and Olga a meaningfull time togehter.

[ScottinCrimea]

The last post brought up a question that came to my mind also.  You repeatedly mentioned your preference for a 30+ woman, but you, with I think only one exception, passed them up for the younger ones.  What were the qualities of these younger ones that caused you to choose them even though they were a second choice based on your criteria?  At that time you only had their photos and limited information in their profiles.  Was it the photos that caused you to override your stated preference or was it some specific thing in their profiles that shifted the balance?
     I have to confess that when I began dating over the internet I swore that I would not date anyone under 35 years old.  Initially I made an exception with my current wife, who was only 29 at the time, and I admit that it was primarily because of her photos.  Okay, I admit, I couldn't resist the temptation.  If she had been like any other 29 year old, though, it wouldn't have lasted long, but she had a maturity beyond her years and had all of the qualifications that I thought I could only find in an older woman.  I would have never discovered this if I had stuck to my criteria.  So while I can understand your giving the younger ones a shot, I'm still curious why you rejected the older ones up front.

[av8or1]

Start2/Scott-

Well first, good questions I suppose though in my mind the answers seem pretty straightforward.  However you don't live in my world, so you couldn't know what I know, and so such questions are reasonable.  I'll try to get to each one, let me know if I leave one out.  Thank you for asking, it is interesting to talk about these things for me.

Most of my trips have been roughly a week in length, yes, though 2 or 3 were for 2 weeks or so.  Longest was 2.5 weeks.  I simply can't take more time off of work than that at any given point.  Like all of us, I'd love an opportunity to stay over there for a few months or a year or more, but it just isn't reality for me.  And for a lot of us who take on this venture.

Olga and other meetings.  Yes, the meetings were pre-scheduled before I arrived.  I suspected and was told that these women made sacrifices to meet with me at those times so I kept to it.  No hindsight-type of regrets at all WRT the amount of time I spent with Olga.  I did it right.  If you make a date with these women, you need to keep it, period.  Now, a few of y'all have brought up this subject of spending more time with Olga.  However, when you have these thoughts you have failed to take into account a couple of things: 1) Olga is a teacher and works 6 days a week (that's right *6* days per week, did ya get that?) and gets off of work about 4 or 6 pm, which is the time we'd meet, so in essence I saw her on her way home.  She didn't want to stay out too long either because she was tired and needed to get home to sleep for her work the next day.  And the one day that I did spend more time with her was the one day she had off, which was my last full day in Tver. And 2) you gotta let attraction blossom and it was my thought that if I just tried to spend all of my time with her I might have turned her off.  Making it a point to see her each day (that is, asking her at the end of each date to see her tomorrow) was a strong enough way to show my interest without being overwhelming.  I felt that with her conservative personality Olga needed this kind of slower-yet-strong approach.  Judging from the results I think I was correct.  So the bottom line for me is that I don't wish I had spent more time with Olga, that's what the second trip is for.

Yes, I am absolutely convinced that with these women if it isn't obvious and clear interest on their part, it's time to bail.  From my experience you have to be quick to pull the D-ring and eject in such situations and strong enough to discard your own feelings and pride when it does happen.  If you can't do that, you probably won't be able to pull that D-ring at all and it goes downhill fast from there.  Sure there are a couple of exceptions to this here and there, but they are in a very small percentage.

Yes I do get tired of "the search", very much so sometimes.  However, that's not gonna lead me into a relationship or marriage that isn't a good choice.  There were several other qualities that I liked about Olga, such as the way she walked and the way she laughed.  Her sense of humor is surprisingly good too, at first glance she comes across as a bit uptight.  But she took right to me teaching her how to Hook 'Em and when I taught her one of Will Farrell's silly/funny/stupid high-five routines she liked it and would do it with me everytime.  Mostly though it's her sense of family and her conservative nature that have attracted me.

The issue of older women raised by both of you.  Ok guys look, I wanted to find an older woman, as I said.  Make no mistake about it.  However, I don't want a woman who already has children, no disrespect intended.  Unfortunately that eliminates a majority of the older women in this search.  I didn't "pass up" the women who were 26+ and focus on the younger ones as y'all have asserted.  I met every older woman LTP had in their program.  Unfortunately we just weren't a match, save the potential with Tanya.  It just works out that way sometimes.  Just like Scott's situation, the only thing that made me consider a younger woman is IF she had the qualities that we often associate with older women, or older people for that matter, which is that they're ready to "settle down and have a family."  With Olga, although I was attracted to her photos and to her in real life, this isn't what made me pursue her.  Frankly speaking there are lots of better-looking women in the FSU than Olga, no disrespect intended.  What made me pursue Olga was the person that she seemed to be and the feeling that I got when I was around her.  This was reinforced by my interpreter who told me on a couple of occasions that Olga was a "good girl", which seemed kinda obvious to me.  Mind you, I had serious concerns about Olga's age and it was the topic of discussion on three separate occasions.  2 while there and once after I was home via my interpreter.  She's been consistent with her answers regarding the subject.  I feel better about it all and if there's one thing I've learned THE HARD WAY in my FSU experience, it's that you can't harp on a subject like this (the smoking issue, etc.).  If you do, you're pretty much guaranteed to turn them off.  And once you do that, it's G-A-M-E O-V-E-R with these women.  There aren't many second chances in the FSU, hell I'd say none at all because there certainly haven't been any in my experience.  I think you can talk about one of these subjects up to and including 3 times max without any real trouble, but even the third time is pushing it.  So basically, it's the kind of situation where you express your concern, judge their reaction/answers as objectively as you can and then either believe them and proceed or not believe them and bail.  If you choose to believe them, then you have to trust them and not bring the subject up again, probably ever.  As my former fiancee from Belarus told me "don't doubt Russian woman or you will kill relations", and I believe she was/is right.  'Point being is that once Olga has made her case for it not being a problem, I have decided to accept it and not bring it up again.  I think this approach is good counsel for any of you out there who have similar concerns with your woman.  When you think about it, it's kinda fundamental and simple in theory and something that when you hear (like now) you say "oh yeah that's easy, of course!  I knew that, tell me something I don't know" and yet, it's much more difficult to put into practice in real life.  You need discipline out the wazoo...

Regarding Tanya the 36 year old dentist.  No I will call Tanya this week and tell her the truth about what is happening.  I will be up-front, open and honest with her about everything while expressing my sincere interest in her.  I will offer to keep her number and then get back in touch with her if things don't work out with Olga.  If she doesn't have anyone at that point we could proceed from there.  It will be up to her to either accept or decline my offer, but I intend to hang my butt out there for her a bit, while maintaining my committment to Olga.  No hedging my bets here, that's also something that I've learned the HARD WAY doesn't work with these women.  And no, eventhough you will try to rationalize it, justify it and put it in different terms, the bulk of the RW/UW I've met will not see it that way.  If you do anything other than I will do with Tanya (short of not ever contacting her again), you will be looked on as a player, just not a good one. (we'll never measure up in this department to RM)

Yes I do want to start a family relatively soon, though probably not 9 months, 1 day from when my wife arrives in the USA.  Olga has expressed the same interest, which is why I'm pursuing things like I am with her.  Regarding the issue of things that would be deal-breakers, oh I dunno.  Standard fare in that respect I think ... things like if I find out she does actually drink or smoke when she has told me she doesn't and along those lines if I discover that she's lied about anything she's told me thus far ... if there's any real "weirdness" that comes up when we spend time alone together like she's really a Pagan witch who burns three different types of incense in an effort to make her eyes change color, something out there like that ... or if I (or we for that matter) discover something that makes us incompatible like, oh I dunno, views on raising children, whatever.  Standard stuff really.

New Years in the FSU.  This is my second stint in this experience.  Not really that much different than any other trip really, save the weather, though that is even worse in January or February.  The one thing though that stands out clearly for me about New Years in the FSU however is meeting new women.  If you're gonna do that, I would say do NOT go during this time of year.  New Years is by far the biggest holiday of the year to those in the FSU, much bigger than their Christmas, which is our biggest holiday in the West.  They are VERY tied into family during these two weeks or so and you will have a lot of cancellations or no-shows.  I know because it happened to me (and other guys I met while there).  I suspect that if you have a steady girlfriend, fiancee or wife that going to the FSU during this time period would be an incredibly good thing to do, but I'll let you know my definite opinion on that when I return.  Remember that their view is that how you spend the New Year holiday is how your upcoming year will go/be so if your woman spends it with you, it means that she sees her new year being about you and your relationship.  'Quite different than our take on it here in the West, but if you're lucky enough to be on the receiving end of that, it seems like it is a wonderful thing!

Good questions, keep 'em coming.  Good discussion like this helps everyone I think!

Best to all,

Jerry

[Mir]

Hi

You look to have a thorough approach to find the right one for you before making a commitment.Can I ask what hapend to your fiancee from Belarus?

[av8or1]

Hi

You look to have a thorough approach to find the right one for you before making a commitment.Can I ask what hapend to your fiancee from Belarus?

Hi Mir,

My former fiancee from Belarus...boy don't know what to say on that one.  Long story short version is that I don't really know what happened and I never will.  I got a Dear John email from her two days before the scheduled interview date in Warsaw.  'Rocked my world, lemme tell ya what.  Took me a good year before my head was on straight again.  I don't recommend that experience to anybody!  In hindsight I did doubt her and question her intentions in the beginning but not so much after the first month or so.  She was my first FSU girlfriend and I didn't know any better.  'Course I had sufficient reason to doubt her, seeing as how she received an SMS from some guy that said "I miss you it is hard for me" while I was with her in her flat in Minsk.  However, what I should have done was to cut bait right then and there instead of trying to understand, blah, blah, blah.  In the end she told me that she didn't love me anymore, despite telling me that she did only one day before the Dear John email arrived in my inbox.  When I finally got a hold of her to talk about it, I received more than an earful of negativity.  Being on the business end of a RW's sh*t stick is not a fun place to be, believe me.  She put any AW to shame with all of the abuse she gave me that day.  Ha!  So many hurtful comments, wow, it still amazes me sometimes.  "I must go now, I have conditioner in my hair, do you want my hair should have problem because of you? <click> <dial tone>" was the last thing we ever said to each other.  'A peculiar if not macabre-ly humorous way to end an engagement I thought.  Funny life is sometimes.  Anyway, I think she found someone else to be honest with ya, though I don't have any proof of that and by saying it, I come across as having sour grapes, which I don't.  It's just my suspicion, that's all.  And in the big picture it hardly matters why to me because no matter what the reason was, my life path was completely changed at that point.  Ya know, it's the ol' thought-it-was-gonna-be-one-way, turned-out-to-be-another, that kind of rude-awakening sort of deal.

If you subscribe to the things-work-out-the-way-they're-supposed-to or if-it-was-meant-to-be-it'll-be kind of theories then ultimately everything turned out ok.  Unfortunately I just don't know how much I believe in that sort of stuff.  Maybe I should!

Best to all,

Jerry

[Kuna]

Hi Mir,

My former fiancee from Belarus...boy don't know what to say on that one.  Long story short version is that I don't really know what happened and I never will.  I got a Dear John email from her two days before the scheduled interview date in Warsaw.  'Rocked my world, lemme tell ya what.  Took me a good year before my head was on straight again.  I don't recommend that experience to anybody!  In hindsight I did doubt her and question her intentions in the beginning but not so much after the first month or so.  She was my first FSU girlfriend and I didn't know any better.  'Course I had sufficient reason to doubt her, seeing as how she received an SMS from some guy that said "I miss you it is hard for me" while I was with her in her flat in Minsk.  However, what I should have done was to cut bait right then and there instead of trying to understand, blah, blah, blah.  In the end she told me that she didn't love me anymore, despite telling me that she did only one day before the Dear John email arrived in my inbox.  When I finally got a hold of her to talk about it, I received more than an earful of negativity.  Being on the business end of a RW's sh*t stick is not a fun place to be, believe me.  She put any AW to shame with all of the abuse she gave me that day.  Ha!  So many hurtful comments, wow, it still amazes me sometimes.  "I must go now, I have conditioner in my hair, do you want my hair should have problem because of you? <click> <dial tone>" was the last thing we ever said to each other.  'A peculiar if not macabre-ly humorous way to end an engagement I thought.  Funny life is sometimes.  Anyway, I think she found someone else to be honest with ya, though I don't have any proof of that and by saying it, I come across as having sour grapes, which I don't.  It's just my suspicion, that's all.  And in the big picture it hardly matters why to me because no matter what the reason was, my life path was completely changed at that point.  Ya know, it's the ol' thought-it-was-gonna-be-one-way, turned-out-to-be-another, that kind of rude-awakening sort of deal.

If you subscribe to the things-work-out-the-way-they're-supposed-to or if-it-was-meant-to-be-it'll-be kind of theories then ultimately everything turned out ok.  Unfortunately I just don't know how much I believe in that sort of stuff.  Maybe I should!

Best to all,

Jerry

Sounds like a painful but lucky escape Avi8tor!

I'm glad you found Olga and wish you all the best during your New Year trip!

Kuna

[ScottinCrimea]

Hey Jerry,
  I appreciate your responses.  I think the whole topic made for a good discussion about many of the same questions and concerns many on this board have.  Best of luck with Olga.  It sounds like you're off to a very good start!