Large age difference

[Rvrwind]

6 months writing and a planned visit, head not extended too high above the trenches

First of all 6 months of writing is actually a waste of time. I find it surprising that the lady has hung in there that long, if you are writing to the same lady.

Most of these ladies usually don't last longer than 3 months. If it takes you longer than that to get your butt on a plane they 9 times out of 10, they lose interest. The ones that hang in, well you would or at least I would, be questioning, why?

I've said it a thousand times & will likely have to repeat it a thousand more...

Until you meet face to face, you have nothing. You are nothing more than Penpals, period!!

BTDT, Bought the t shirt!!! The best recipe is write for 2 months & then get your ass on a plane!!! You will achieve much greater results than you will wasting money & months on end writing letters.

RVR - Canadian Cowboy/Agency Owner

[Turboguy]

I think you make a good point in saying the best thing is to write for two months and then get yourself on a plane.    If the gal is attractive you are also right, you are not her ONLY "pen pal"  and if you don't get on the plane, someone else will.  If he has much going for him you know what they say about a bird in hand.......   If you want her, go get her before someone else does.   The one I like a lot right now, three weeks after we started writing, I was having dinner with her.    Three weeks from now I will be back spending a lot of time with her.  There is something to be said for, If you want something, go get it.   Sometimes I am not good at getting what I want, but it is not for lack of trying.

[Bruno]

First of all 6 months of writing is actually a waste of time. I find it surprising that the lady has hung in there that long, if you are writing to the same lady.

Most of these ladies usually don't last longer than 3 months. If it takes you longer than that to get your butt on a plane they 9 times out of 10, they lose interest. The ones that hang in, well you would or at least I would, be questioning, why?

Long writing, a waste of time

Not sure Richard... i have communicate more of one year with a woman... and it is only now that we have see that we have a lot in common and agree to try something more that friendship...

These long communication have allow us to appreciate each other, to build some friendship...

Of course, these communication was not in the goal of find a wife... it was a simple internet friendship... and she was not planned marry a foreign man...

Of course, since the grow of our mutual interest, we see each other like candidat for a marriage but we don't hurry in these way... we go meet around May... like friend and maybe more if the "alchimy" is right...

She was never a agency girl, she have never post some ads, she was not searching a foreign husband, she was not searching a boyfriend.... she have know me via anti-date and we have begin communicate a lot because we have two common language ( English and Dutch )...

I don't know where these relation can lead, but it is more healthy that usual "love" relation via marriage agency... we don't hurry, we take time, we communicate, we are friend... love is only a new option....

If a woman loose interest after 3 month, why hurry to marry her... if she loose interest so fast, she can loose it after some month of marriage...

I begin believe that try to force thing lead only to problem... before, i have contact lady in the goal of marry one... with the actual lady, the contact was only friendship... and these friendship have evolve in a starting relation but without already speaking of marriage since we have not meet already...

And for coming back to the topic, i have never consider the possibility of a relation with these woman before because she is enough young... only 27 year old.. this make 10 year difference with me... and in these case, i am not fall in "love" from a photo since we have exchange our photo's only last month... i have learn is inner beauty long time before with our e-mail correspondance... the fact that we was not trying build a relation in these time have allow a discussion where lies are not present...

So, my next trip report will be for end May... it will not be a dating trip report... only a visit to a friend who can maybe evolve in a love relation... in so situation, the trip can only be succesful .

PS : I begin believe in the model of JB, who have use several year for court his lady... a lady who was not specialy searching a foreign man and who was not in marriage agency...

[Rvrwind]

That is the principal difference Bruno. You are or were not searching for a wife, niether was she. You became Friends and you will meet as friends not as potential lovers.

What you need to understand is that most men in this process fall in love with letters & pictures long before they get on an airplane to go meet her. How do you think the spam & scam & bait & switch operations work so well? Because they know how men think & how & what buttons to push to get them to spend their money & time on a Virtual Woman!

You all need to realize that for centuries we have been trained to think in a certain direction & women in another. What they say & write or do we 90% of the time interpret wrongly because our brains don't fuction that way. There are very few men in the overall scheme of things that have been able to break free of the mold & become impervious to the female charm. To do so one has to change the way one thinks, a thousand years of evolution has to be revamped. Remember - Women are from Venus, Men are from Mars!

Nowhere is that more prevelant than in the dating game. If a man goes into it like Bruno as friends he would be much better off & save much money. I know it is impossible for most but IMHO the best way to find, meet & eventually marry a woman would be not to write at all. When your dating at home, do you write her first? I don't think so. Rent a place wherever you want to go for 3-6 months, get on a plane, go live there, soak up the culture & meet them in your day to day life. That is optimal, however we all know not logical for most.

So if you are going to go the writing letters, the first thing you have to do is find the best method for you. With or without an agency, what ype of agency, full service package or pay as you go? All these as well as the costs have to be considered. Then you must never ever espouse words of intimacy or love in a letter & you must never accept them from the lady. She can no more love you than you can her from a picture & a couple of letters. Its all Fantasy!!! Once you figure that out, well the rest is easy.

RVR - Canadian Cowboy/Agency Owner

[KenC]

Wow!  Some great posts of wisdom here lately.

BC wrote:

I believe that the real problem during a prolonged letter writing period is that many men 'condition', fantasize and yes even brainwash themselves into believing that a relationship actually exists with a woman they have not even met.  The mind is very receptive to repeated suggestions.. that is how we learn.  2 plus 2 equals 4, over and over and over.  Consider each letter a daily training session, each photo reinforcing evidence.. over and over and over again.  I'm sure these concious and subconcious thought processes repeat themselves hundreds of times each day, month after month, literally erasing our logic and objective capabilities .  That's a tough nut to crack.

When Lena and I were calling each other (rather than writing) we both hoped that our little fantasy conversations were real and would have the eventual results that they did (married happily) but we both were realistic and knew the odds were against us.  We didn't allow our "potential" relationship to consume our daily lives.  We just kept that hope filed away until it could become "real" when we actually met each other.

Turboguy wrote:

 I just think that you might find something different than you expect when you actually meet.   I have fallen in love with a photograph (and warm romantic letters) a million times myself.  90% of the time who I meet is not who I thought I was meeting.

It's kind of funny now, but I was conditioned by meeting AW on the Net.  The more experienced I became, the less time I spent emailing and talking on the phone before setting up a face to face meeting.  I came to the exact same conclusion as you; 90% of the time who I met was not who I thought I was meeting.  Why waste the time and effort?

Which brings me to Bruno & RVR.  Sorry Bruno, but I have to agree with RVR when he writes:

Until you meet face to face, you have nothing. You are nothing more than Penpals, period!!

The initial writing or calls to a woman that you have yet to meet can only lay the groundwork for very basic criteria for a potential relationship. (Because there is no actual relationship until you meet)

This all changes after you have spent time face to face though.  It is all so much more real then.

KenC[/size][/b]

[Admin]

Wow! Some great posts of wisdom here lately.

Yeah - and only 28 pages to wade through to get to it

Just kidding

- Dan

[catzenmouse]

When I first started this adventure I joined every group I could find and read everything I could about the country, culture, language, and especially the women. I only wish I would have had this resource available to me. Would have saved me a lot of time and confusion in many ways but in many others I had to go and do the same stupid things that were done before me by others and for the first while I was "sure" that I was different blah, blah, blah.

This forum is a grand One-Stop Shop to help/inform anyone at most any stage of this FSUW/WM rollercoaster ride.

28 pages.... pishaw... if they can't read 28 pages then they desearve to be scammed good and beaten well with the ClueBat! :P:P <joking on the last part>

Ken

[KenC]

Wow!  Some great posts of wisdom here lately.

Yeah - and only 28 pages to wade through to get to it

Just kidding

- Dan[/quote]
Better to have nuggets of gold that are difficult to find, then no nuggets at all.:cool:

KenC

[Bruno]

Until you meet face to face, you have nothing. You are nothing more than Penpals, period!!

The initial writing or calls to a woman that you have yet to meet can only lay the groundwork for very basic criteria for a potential relationship. (Because there is no actual relationship until you meet)
[/size][/b][/quote]
I fully agree with Richard too... it is why i speak about friendship... and maybe some more relational interest... but not "love" already...

I think that the main problem of several men is that they fall in love very fast from a few letter and photo, make a week trip, start the K1, marry ... and divorce a few year later... All need to go fast and nobody have the time to know each other...

Everybody know that fast food is not healthy... was about fast dating ???

My only problem with Richard is that he put a timeline for the first meeting... i go meet a woman when i feel myself confortable with these woman... Why use a big part of my yearly holliday and my money for meet someone that i don't know... This give maybe great trip report for RWD but it is not my main goal...

Of course, if you meet several lady during one trip, you have more choice... but same a meeting, face to face, don't allow to know someone... of course, you will know if you are sexually attracted, if you have some common view... but a life together is more complex that common hobby or sex...

Explain about my country, about my character, about my point of view on numerous topic ( not specially related to dating ) allow me to see if we have some compatibility... i have already pay the price of making a fast decision by 5 years of my life... i don't wish make it again... time and communication help me to know someone enough for decide if i make a trip or not...

Several say that meeting with short e-mail exchange is the best way... i don't agree with this, certainly in my case where the lust factor can trouble my mind... if i meet a sexy young lady and we are fast in bed together, i can act from a non rational way... she take the control over me... writing for a enough long time before allow to keep my mind clear and decide if she is good or not at the mind level... the meeting come later for see if the spiritual compatibility match a sexual compatibility.

Some are able to control these lust factor and keep a clear mind when they have go in bed with a young sexy woman... but i think that these some are very few... sex is the weakness of man, gold digger and visa whore go use it without problem for obtain what they wish : a old rich foreign husband or a green card.

 

[Rvrwind]

Now see there ya' go....

of course, you will know if you are sexually attracted

If she's got a nice ass, firm boobs & no moustache & ain't hard on the eyes, were pretty much sexually compatible from the get go. I don't need much letter writin' or face time to figure that one out!!!! ROTFLMFAO:P

But seriously: all letter writing does for you is clear up the clutter so to speak Gets all the small talk out of the way, before you meet. But when it comes to bonding, to forming a growing relationship, this cannot, I repeat CAN NOT be accomplished through letter writing. You must be face to face & spend time in an enviroment where you are close & can communicate on a very intimate level.

Forming a friendship through letter writing is all fine & dandy. I have many friends here on RWD that I communicate with regularly & who I write to & about regularly & we all seem to get along. But put us all together in one room, face to face & watch how fast things deteriorate. Some of us could turn out to be real dorks in person.

You cannot form a valid or lasting opinion of someone through virtual communication. Sure you can get to know details about each other & each others lives but subconsiously we all come across differently in the virtual world. We all maintain a facade that cannot be maintained when we are face to face.

That being said I cannot stress enough the fact that to really know someone, letter writing is not going to cut it, you must spend time face to face. And not just one or two weeks, much more time. I have been married to my wife for 2+ years & I still discover things about her & her life that I was unaware of previously. Nothing that will damage our relationship & usually very small things but still things I didn't know & we dated & lived together for almost a year before we married.

Developing a relationship takes time, trust & mutual commitment to the percieved goal & plenty of one on one time. These are things you can never accomplish with letter writing.

RVR - Canadian Cowboy/Agency Owner

[tim 360]

28 pages to read before finding that golden nugget would be worth it for a newbie.  Couple years ago this info was not around,  instead a guy usually dealt with an agency which encouraged him to write (spend) more and hopefully,  the chump would never show up in town.  There is a silver needle in this haystack which all the keyboard Romeos should pay attention to....it is real face time and NOT your creative writing which matters. 

But,  ya know,  there is a certain type of guy who likes to sit at the keyboard and compose his creative and very clever letters and in many ways---he is writting to himself.  Just a little fantasy in life ain't bad,  but rec ognize it for what it is.......a fantasy:clapping:....Tim

[Bruno]

Developing a relationship takes time, trust & mutual commitment to the percieved goal & plenty of one on one time. These are things you can never accomplish with letter writing.

 

Fully agree... letter writing is only a tool for help in the selection and analyse of a possible relation... letter writing don't make the relation but allow to remove the bad or incompatible one.

[andrewfi]

Apart from learning a person's name and a few other things, written communication, in advance of meeting tells us only that which the other person wants us to know. Of course that is a two edged blade, the person can tell us what they think we want to hear and get it wrong, resulting in a rejection that should not have occured or, on the other hand, a false positive.

Attraction is not just about what we write, in fact, it is NOTHING to do with what we write! At the end of the day, all the written words and all the photographs mean nothing unless the pheromones are compatible on meeting.

At the end of the day relationships are about two people being in contact with each other, writing does not decrease the distance, whatever those who would gainsay this point may think. It certainly seems to me that over the years, the people who are willing to act decisively but with consideration are the people who succeed. I also think that because letter writing is a 'remote control' option it probably tends to suit those who can not manage the relationship initiation process in real life, it is more comfortable to them to write than to meet. Most letter writers will never leave their home country. These are the guys who have masturbatory fantasies as they make 'selections' from huge numbers of profiles, rejecting profiles on a whim, or for imagined slight, most will never meet a Russian woman for real.

Does this mean that guys who indulge in long letter writing campaigns do not end up married and claiming happiness? Of course not, but it does not make that which I wrote above untrue, it is just that they would not have managed to get married in any other way. It does not render this a sensible option for 'Mr. Average'.

I know for a fact that women tend to think guys who write loads of letters are simply a waste of time and in most cases will quickly ditch such a person.

You want to make this work?

Write quickly and with short letters, tell your interlocutor in the first letter, maybe the second, when you are coming to her country & town and follow through. Subsequent communication then has a purpose.

After meeting, when there is a context and goal to continued communication, writing makes more sense, although, talking is much better and you are in a relationship with a woman with whom you can have spoken communication aren't you?

In summary, show me a man who writes loads of letters and I will show you a man who has problems with relationships or no committment to the process and goal!

[anono]

Until you meet face to face, you have nothing. You are nothing more than Penpals, period!!

it is so refreshing to have rvr, kevin and other agency owners who simply tell it like it is.

as most of you know, i have been at this for some time, usually dating one lady while keeping my eyes out and meeting others if it does not turn out to be "the one".

i have seen a distinct pattern in the letters i have been receiving through an umbrella agency which has affiliates all over ukraine.

almost ALL of the letters i receive now suggest more correspondence before meeting. i wrote to the umbrella agency and told them basically what i am posting now, that i have noticed this change.

i know most of these women never meet the men who write. as RVR is fond to call them, they are "keyboard cowboys" these women are simply delighted if a man they are interested in actually comes over here to meet them.

so here i sit in kiev and receive letters from women who know i am here and instead of giving me their numbers they want more letters...  to which i say is total bullship.

i told the agencies they are shooting themselves in the foot if they are telling the girls to do this (or writing the first few letters themselves)......

another thing i see, i am almost convinced most of these agencies (and or the terps) tell the girls "look, 98% of the time you will never see this man again, so get as much out of him on a first (and usually only) meeting with him."

they are really getting bold. i had a lady and her terp order a bottle of wine without asking, and would have run the tab up (they wanted another bottle) past $100 if i had let them. these two talked amongst themselves more than with me....

this is such an industry over here...   men and women who cannot even speak directly to each other...  it is a very rare occasion that any of it really works.. 

of course i have to add my disclaimer about the good agencies and owners that abound at this board.

[anono]

the above is off topic but in response to other posts in this thread

[alenika]

Until you meet face to face, you have nothing. You are nothing more than Penpals, period!!

The initial writing or calls to a woman that you have yet to meet can only lay the groundwork for very basic criteria for a potential relationship. (Because there is no actual relationship until you meet)

This all changes after you have spent time face to face though.  It is all so much more real then.[/size][/b]
[/quote]Not that I disagree with said above, but funny observation. 100% of those whomI meet in real are the same as I knew them in internet. Not exactly the same of course, but with some added qualities. Just they are not any different, no different impression of them. I cannot say that met many though - 2 people from abroad (1 friend and one more than friend) and some people from my city. But it was my choice not to meet many - maybe that's why they didn't differ - because I gave time to get toknow them before meeting? Actually I am with Bruno on this - for meit's better to correspond at least for year before meeting - thatis to wait when I feel comfortable with person and when he is becoming a recognisable and close person. But I don't think it's the samefor everyone. I think depends on each person when to meet and how much correspondence matters. For someit's easier togo andsee - and they see much better with just eyes that via words. Others can see real people behind the words andit canbe more comfortabletothem to meet withthe person whom they already know than to meet hundreds strangers and try to see who they are during inevitable social game.

[Aleksia]

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another thing i see, i am almost convinced most of these agencies (and or the terps) tell the girls "look, 98% of the time you will never see this man again, so get as much out of him on a first (and usually only) meeting with him."

 [/size] 

 

Can not agree with you here. Things are changing. If several years ago it could be the truth, now a lot of agencies understand that if they are providing a bad service to male-customers, who actually are paying for their services, they will not come back again, they will not advice others to use the same agencies and what is the most important I think, they can write bad things about their agencies on different forums, etc. in Internet.

Good agencies should be more concerned about the successes of their work.

If they do not - it's just an industry and you are there, just a number. I think this is a big problem for big dating sites, as let's say match.com, kiss.com

There is nothing personal there, are you are - no matter if it's a woman or a man, is just one among hundreds of others.

During several years of work in this field I see that there are a lot of men who will never end up with the meeting with the girls they are writing. For some it's a way to see that somebody actually can be interested in them, for some it's a way of having a virtual relationship and virtual sex.

I think it's a very rare thing to see a woman feeling the same way, but I guess it is happening as well.

I agree that

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Until you meet face to face, you have nothing. You are nothing more than Penpals, period!![/size][/font]



You can write whatever you want in the letters. And very often men and women are writing exactly what others want to hear from them, just to please a partner or to show they have actually have things in common.

You can notice that a lot of women are writing in their ads that they are interested in sport. I guess only 1% is truth!

[Turboguy]

Personally I think you might get lucky if you meet a few ladies and find what you expected.   I have met lots and lots and lots of ladies.    I would say 20% are what I expected.   Last week I met two in Ukraine.  The first poured her heart out to me in letters.  I poured my heart out to her in letters.  I thought I had a soulmate that I could have long talks about anything.   In reality, getting two words out of her was difficult.   I never felt more of a communication gap.   We spent 4 days trying our best to avoid each other because we were so uncomfortable together.   In 4 days we probably spent 10 hours together and the first 6 were the first day.

The other gal said nothing in her letters.  They were short but she did say in each letter that she wanted to meet me and since I was going to be in town and my real second choice was busy, or said she was, I met this one.  What I found was the easist person to talk to I have ever met and the nicest gal I have met perhaps in my life. 

I have met gals who seemed warm and caring who spent all their time yelling at someone.  I have met gals who seemed wonderful and what I was really getting was the thoughts of the terp who was writing her letters with her.  I met one who seemed to say the nicest things and when I really looked back, she was throwiing my own words back at me but changing them to be her words.  I met one who's favorite pass time was aiming her car at a crowd of people and putting the gas pedal to the floor and blowing her horn and watching them jump for their life while she laughed and laughed,  (Not on my car insurance Nina)  When I have found a really wonderful one, it was not something I would know from the letters, it was pure luck and purely a numbers game.

[andrewfi]

TG ~ I guess that the degree to which letters reveal a person to be the same, or different to the real world person depends upon the expectations and standards of the writers.

If my standards were low as were my expectations then I am sure that written communication would be a successful tool. My expectations and standards are neither and so letter writing is largely a waste of time, albeit that I have not used letters as a means of finding a wife, I beleive in much more direct methods for building personal relationships.

If one is not good at building relationships in preson, not good at listening and talking, then letters may be some help. If one is of normal social ability then no matter how many letters are written they count for nothing as soon as a meeting is made. This is not to insult letter writers, if, for them, they have to write many letters in order surmount the normal social barriers, then so be it. It is probably more acceptable, for Americans, to write loads of letters to some bint in Belarus than to send loads of emails to a lady in Los Angeles.

[anono]

i stand by my words alexia, it happened again just two days ago

[Albert]

Quite some varied experiences here regarding whether the woman you actually meet is different than the woman you corresponded with.

In my case of meeting over 155 women from FSU, I would guestimate that 90% were pretty much what I had expected based on our e-mails.  I follow the path of exchanging 5-10 e-mails with the gals compressed into a 6-7 week window just before my arrival.  Of course, those 10% who turned out much different than  I had been lead to believe . . . . well there were some real doozies in that group.

[andrewfi]

Albert ~ I think there is a big difference between writing 6 or 7 messages prior to a definate visit and somebody writing huge screeds on a daily basis for several months.

In your circumstances, I would expect the exchanges to be largely fact based and from the woman's side, actually written by her alone. I would expect to find what I expected to find.

When the guys are writing huge messages in great quantity for long periods they need to know that, assuming the woman is patient enough to stand for this, that she may well have the help of friends and a glass or six of wine or vodka to help the creative juices and that phrases, paragraphs and even whole messages that meet with group approval will be recycled out to other guys. These women have lives outside of you wife hunters.

[KenC]

In your circumstances, I would expect the exchanges to be largely fact based and from the woman's side, actually written by her alone. I would expect to find what I expected to find.

When the guys are writing huge messages in great quantity for long periods they need to know that, assuming the woman is patient enough to stand for this, that she may well have the help of friends and a glass or six of wine or vodka to help the creative juices and that phrases, paragraphs and even whole messages that meet with group approval will be recycled out to other guys. These women have lives outside of you wife hunters.

I think this is much more of a reality if the RW has limited English skills.  Even if the emails are not a group effort, some where someone does have to "interpret" what the writer is trying to communicate to the AM when there is limitations due to lack of English skills.  How good is that interpretation, is anyone's guess because in the end, it is really the terp's words and not the RW in question.

KenC

[andrewfi]

In my home I have two networked computers. A recent girlfriend had very good English and a couple of friends with less good English. Between the four of us we had five PCs.

My home was a popular venue becasue not only did I have a spare computer, I was also available for insights in the psyche of mad Americans and Scandinavians (their usage, not mine although I have since co-opted it!), help with a turn of phrase and in constructing bad English.

The letter writing was a group effort of the women and the fact that one of the team had almost no English was no great handicap as she was the most creative of the three with a wicked sense of humour and knowledge of just how far to push a guy without seeming to totally insult him.

I know that this kind of thing happens in other groups and I am sure that in husband snagging circles these letter writing parties are quite common. At least, it seems better than having an agency do all the work, but these ladies did not use an agency.

But, the bottom line is this. None of the guys who was writing to these women was writing to a real woman, but the stupid idiots were falling in love with these women, or at least telling them so... I can not believe that the men were unique and I do not think the women are unusual.

But, even if we accepted that these people are unique and that such practices never happened anywhere else but in the apartments of myself and this small group of women, it does not make sense to think that that which is written about with care, reflection and consideration reflects the reality of the person and personality when in a spontaneous and natural situation. It can only be an idealisation and a fulfillment of a fantasy, probably on both sides - at least in those cases where the woman actually exists and the man is willing to get a passport and airline ticket.

[300spartans]

[size="3"]KenC started this thread. He is 25 years older than his  wife, who was only about 21 or so when they married. Most posters say  this age for a RW is much too young, immature etc. After 6 years of  marriage he is justifiably proud and confident about the future. After  less than one year of marriage with a similar age difference, I am  cautious, hopeful but not boasting. My first FSU choice for a life  partner (which only lasted a few days of living together in Kiev), was  13 years older than my wife and also with a grown up child, and she was  a cheat and a liar. So much for older women being more trustworthy. I  never met the 40 years old fraudsters daughter or her mother, but I did  meet her phoney "brother".

jb is 12 years older than his wife. His much earlier post hints that  women with this age gap might have some severe baggage issues.   Agreed, many or most women in the FSU have been abused by the system,  their fathers and by FSU men in general.

Tigerpaws is 19 years older than his wife, and he is frank about his  motivations. He says, have the gold ring, have it all. I am with  Tigerpaws on this one. This is good advice, aim high and you might be  surprised. Aim low, and you might get even less than you deserve. "No  good deed goes unpunished".

Tiger does seem a bit callous or heartless, but so are a great many  FSUW who marry WM. Also, Tiger flaunts his wealth which makes some of  the rest of us jealous. But as a wise though rambling man called Ham  once said, on the Internet every man is 6 foot 6 and a black belt  karate expert, who always flew attack aircraft for the Marines, or Air  Force.

KenC I fear you may be a hypocrite. I think Tiger is right even if his  motivations and lack of romantic foolishness do not appeal to all.  There is no need for a man with a few bucks to marry an FSU woman  burdened down by age or children. You and Tigerpaws didn't do it and  neither I. Tigers sin is being so darned honest.

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