Estonia

[Kuna]

Kuna,  if a guy reads carefully he will not make the same mistakes as he ordinarily would.  This is not a NY thing I am doing.  It helps those searching.  If guys are too afraid to come on this board and ask questions out of fear of ridicule they need not buy a ticket to visit the FSU because ultimately they will end up far short of their expectations (though I would argue still better for the experience).

The guys who come on and cheerlead (that a boy crowd) any guy who obviously made huge mistakes are hurting every other guy involved in the process of meeting, establishing a relationship with, marrying and staying married to a girl from the FSU.  There is a well known board where they can cheer each other on towards "penetration" and inability to hold a long term relationship with a girl from the FSU.

I've PM'd DKNM with specific advice for him.  Any newbie who thinks he can go to meet one "hottie" and or throw money around in the FSU is in for a world of long term pain.

Ohhhhh Bruce...

I would respond but I can't work out how to spell "Pffft"!

 

Kuna

[SANDRO43]

I would respond but I can't work out how to spell "Pffft"!

PHFFT 

[Bruce]

What does PHFFT stand for anyway  ? 

[Darth Vader]

What does PHFFT stand for anyway  ? 

It doesn't stand for anything  LOL

It's the sound made when you blow air out of your mouth over your lips--in exasperation.   

[Bruce]

Thanks for the education Darth.  I do not remember Phfft on the old Batman series .

[Leslie]

Hmm…

What have we got here.

A guy who is so desperate for a sexy holiday with a 21 year old girl that he is prepared to subsidise a trip even though he admits that he has no genuine affection for her.

A young Russian woman who wants a Caribbean holiday so bad that she has persuaded her rich parents to pay a $1000 towards it.

Sounds like sex tourist meets vacation scammer to me.  The motivation of both parties is loathsome.  They deserve each other...

Some of the Old Married Bastards actually take the time to give advice which the wannabe’s don’t want to hear.  Hey it might stop other “Dead Heads” from posting their sordid tales.  Oh that we should be so lucky !

[DKMM]

Hi all!

Well I'm glad to receive so many posts regarding my trip and I appreciate having the opportunity to respond but first let me post the last part of the TR:

Morning comes late to those in the FSU and J and her family are no exception.  She told me she'd call around 10am, she does and says we will pick you up a little after 11.  At 11:30 they arrive and I check out.  We pile my things into their car (its a new Camry so plenty of room) and head out. 

They took me to a really cool TV Tower, which is sorta like their version of the Space Needle in Seattle.  It was a very interesting experience, and her father did a good job explaining things although it was all in Russian so I understood maybe half of it.  We go up and eat in the restaurant high above the ground (170 meters).  I could tell the parents were sold, as J did not originally plan on us spending sunday with her parents.  I sneakily paid for the meal at the end before the check arrived.  That worked quite well, and it was the first (and only) meal I paid for here so it wasn't out of line.  Her mom seemed so pleased, like more than I thought anybody should be especially since they could easily afford it.

We go back down and J and her mom are cold but her dad wants to show me around more outside.  I say see you ladies later and dad takes me on a walk.  It was so cool because I could tell he liked showing me things and presenting them in simple Russian sentences I could understand.  He also explains that J and her mom are always cold and whine about it a lot.  I realize that J actually whines alot period, complaining more than *most* girls I've ever met.  I already knew that before I even came here actually, but anyways...

J takes over the wheel now and will not relinquish for the rest of the day.  We drove to a botanical garden, which was this big modernistic greenhouse with tropical plants inside.  Her mom tries to get a picture of us together outside of it but J stands like a foot away from me.  Inside, more of the same.  I noticed that her mom tried to get another picture of us, but J didn't want to be in it (I deciphered their Russian).  So J gets pictures of herself and then I get some of just me.  OK talk about weird.  Finally later she gets in a couple with me and even sits up close.  She seemed to be having mood swings or something but I think it was something between her and her mom.  Anyways, the place was pretty neat and we head back to the car.  on the way back we stop at a monument and they explain everything to me and now her mom offers to take a picture of just me in front of it.  No thanks I have enough pictures of myself I reply.  We go to some ruins and its the same deal, J not saying much to me, but not totally ignoring me either.

We finally head back to their place and she changes because she was too cold.  Her mom wanted J to go get another present for my parents (because I outgifted them the night before) so we leave with about 2 hours remaining on my trip.  As soon as we get outside she warms up.  As it turns out, her mother is suspicsious that we are more than friends and she basically was distant around them to keep their ideas at bay.  Strange but its not really my problem.  Basically, she doesn't want them to think we are going to the Carib as lovers and all of that.  J has never gone anywhere with a man alone, and only had one boyfriend while she was in her mid to late teens.  OK so we walk around but don't find anything useful to buy.  Still on my return to the flat I feel much better because we managed to act normal around each other and she even laughed quite a bit.  I think we needed more time to simply adjust to being around each other and its shame that it finally happened at the end of the trip.

We get back to the flat, and have a final meal.  It was good, and for the 1st time J actually ate more than a few bites of her food.  Just keeping the pattern I guess of FSU girls starving themselves...

We go to the airport and they follow me to security.  Its not like in St. Pete, I could she wasn't all that sad to see me leave.  And quite frankly I wasn't sad either, I was sad to see her parents off though.  A hug and peck on the cheek later (J says "see you soon") and I'm off.

The journey home was cool, got to meet a lady from Cyprus who gave me her email addy, phone # and told me to hit her up if I ever make it out there.   

[DKMM]

Postlogue,

Well first of all, no regrets.  I learned a ton and I feel it was a good way to do it.  It was only a weekend so its not like I wasted a week or more.  Also, Tallinn was beautiful and a place I've always wanted to see, so that aspect was not wasted.  In fact, for a WOVO a short trip isn't a bad idea... but this wasn't a typical WOVO.  She was polite and kind to me but had a strong barrier, I think to set expectations and because of the parents thing.

I don't want to repeat what I've said before about J and I'm don't want to say bad things but some things I'd like to get off my chest.  J is spoiled just like a young good looking rich girl would be from anywhere.  She sounds rather strange, and I mean she talks wierd.  Not just English, her Russian is the same way.  She is also prone to overstate what she has done and seen in life.  It turns out she hasn't been all over Europe like previously stated and while well educated not very knowledgeable.  I asked her many things about her country that she did not know the answer to, and I mean obvious things I would expect someone to know.  In the end, the real her is not the same as the girl she presented herself to be.  Well big surprise isn't it?     I'm sure that never happens to anyone else...

In any case, this weekend trip averted potential disaster for my carib trip.  I have a lot of thinking to do about that but I'll approach it in another post.

So she obviously gave me the cool shoulder, but she did the exact same thing in Moscow which was why I was so surprised to ever hear from her again.  She was even more distant that first meeting and yet she pursued me through emails for about a month before I started talking to her on a regular basis.  Contrast with the amazing time I had with Ana on my trip and I have never heard from her since.  This means I am clearly misreading her (i.e. communication problem).  But at the very least I know she is a bit strange and not interested in me romantically.  I really don't think I could marry her even if she warmed up because I saw the real her and it wasn't what I'm looking for.  Its no wonder anymore why she's been single all this time.

I thought that since we had similar backgrounds it might work.  I was apprehensive to meeting a poor girl who would love me just for my money or fool me into thinking otherwise.  With J I know where she stands and she ain't trying to scam me (I've got the cash from her to prove that) or obviously GCG me either.  But, a rich spoiled hottie is a bad place to look here! 

[DKMM]

OK now to address the mess of replies on this thread.  I will attempt to in order, more or less.

I appreciate all insight and information.  I'm not a softy, if I'm being stupid I am fine with being called on it.  Criticism can be used to learn from not get offended by.  That being said, I think some of you didn't realize I knew this was a shot in hell but I couldn't live with not going for it.  I also realize I'm still on the newbie side, having only been to Russia once.  That was my ultimate justification, that even if it bombed I would come out ahead for the experience.  I wouldn't say it bombed, but it wasn't what I had hoped for either.

Gator, you pretty much hit it on, like always.  We are both very clear that its only a friendship thing and while I previously found it hard to believe its not a mystery to me anymore.  The only thing that is a mystery is why she choose me when she knows guys, even a distant relative or two that have offered to take her to something like this and even pay for all of it.  She tells me its because she trusts me and that she has a good feeling that I know what I'm doing.  Yeah I don't know what that meant exactly but it worked at the time... I don't want to divulge where I'm going yet just in case in the unlikely event that it could get back to her (she does have a profile or two out there lurking I'm sure) that I'm the guy that visited (although it would be obvious if she read my TR).

I don't know how I feel about my trip in 2 weeks, I did shell out a lot of money but that's not the most important thing I know.  For some reason I don't want to spend 10 days with her if she acts the same way like she thinks she's so much better than me or something.  I'm normally a warm confident funny guy but around her I wasn't quite as relaxed.  And on vacation I want to be relaxed.  I could eat even more dough by sending back her payment and take a girl from the states.  (would double the trip cost to 4 grand for me).  But I don't know that I would enjoy that either, even though I'd be guaranteed a pretty good time if you know what I mean.  I'm still leaning towards going, but I'm keeping an open mind about it. 

I'll be the first to admit that I need more exposure to these girls before I know that I want to or even could marry one.  The biggest hurdle sounds obvious but its SOO true and that's the language barrier.  Going with her alone somewhere would expose me to all sorts of trials related to communication and cultural differences, so it might be best for my search in the end to do that.  But 10 whole days in the tropics, wow that would suck if it turned out like yours Gator.

Bruce, I wasn't throwing my money around.  My biggest handicap probably is that I really don't want the girls there knowing my financial situation so I don't spend much.  Its true, I'm blessed but at the same time it can be a curse for a man seeking love from a place such as this.  To be careful I don't get lulled in, I'd rather not have them know too much other than I'm doing good enough.  I'd rather get rejected a 100 times than to get someone that will fake it for the money.

Leslie, you obviously don't know our situation but that isn't it.  If I wanted a sex tour, I have a choice of some hot ladies here in town that would go with me at the drop of a hat.  And it would have costed me far less money and anguish.  That's not what I'm looking for, my ultimate goal is to still find a bride preferrably from the FSU.  That being said, if its a choice between taking a hometown girl for a good time or going with J for a miserable one, i could do worse than taking an AW.
Her parents aren't paying for it, she is.  We talked about budgeting day to day expenses as she wants to pay for her half but doesn't want her parents to help her out.  She has a pretty good job.

Ahh hell I could go on and on overanalyzing this but all the really matters is what she says to me over the next few days.  I haven't heard anything from her yet... de ja vu?  My true worry is that she doesn't even want to be really friends, just nothing at all...If she's cold about the trip I'll pull the plug and regather for my next trip to the FSU next spring.

[Son of Clyde]

I can be the eternal optimist but I went on two trips to meet much younger women. There was no sexual encounter on either trip just curiosity on both sides.

When I met the second lady I saw her jaw drop when she realized the true age difference.

These were not two scammers just bad matches.

I went in knowing I could be used and I ended up having a decent time in spite of no romantic fireworks.

Maybe the newbie needs the experience, needs to fail in order to succeed further along down the road.

If a guy is fairly intelligent he can spot a scammer. i was never asked for money unless it was to provide transportation and pay for dinner. I was never asked to buy expensive presents or to go to expensive restaurants. I am very thankful I was not conned by these two young women.

I very much respect Jack because he offered his help even though he did not know me personally.

You must go in knowing you may fail and you must be prepared to fail once or twice before you meet with success.

[DKMM]

Just to readdress, there is only a 7 year age difference between us.

I am thinking of trying the agency route next because I obviously couldn't get it done on my own.

[tim 360]

Well DkMM,  The $$$ are already down on the trip with her and probably very little wiggle room there.  Just go and try to have a nice little trip with J who has already paid you $1K for the trip.  Maybe you will begin to understand her actions much better?  Maybe not?  I dunno.  Just have a good time and don't over-analyze it too much.

During this time together without her parents you will get to know her better and begin to understand her behaviour and her inner-self.  You know that whole new age inner child thing.  There are now some truly marvelous medications for possible  bi-polarism today and I am confident if that is the diagnosis; the proper doseage can be determined by a professonal Dr.  I expect you will see very good progress for her within a relatively short period of time.............Good Luck,  Das Vadanya, tim360 :kissing:

[Son of Clyde]

Age difference is not always a factor. You can be scammed by an older woman.

[Gator]

Well DKMN,

I think a lot of people have misjudged you, including some very wise and experienced married members.  Your gentlemanly resilience to off-target criticism is admirable.  Throughout my life, I have been a good judge of character.  Although this is near impossible over the Internet, from what I read and analyze and feel, I think your situation has potential.  It certainly is unique, and that makes it fascinating.

Unless you are completely bull$hitting us, I vote “thumbs up”.   Contrary to other voters.  In fact, I will go further out the limb and assert that your relationship could very well work out.  Nevertheless, both of you are so young that anything could happen, bad or good.

What do we have here?  Certainly not a sex tourist and a vacation scammer. We have two young people, neither of whom are desperate. 

He is a 28-yo independently wealthy something.  He seems worldly for his years, familiar with Europe and conversant in Russian. (Please tell us why you know the Russian language.)  Just like your new best buddy Leslie did 4 years ago, you wisely hide your wealth from women.   However, most people can tell from a man’s style when he has a lot of jingle in his pocket.

She is a 21-yo beauty, well educated, with a well paying job (whatever that is).  She says that she has had little experience with men, and that seems believable because of her mannerisms and because this indeed happens in the FSU.  One witness being my ex-fiancée who was a virgin when she married at 19, and another “ol’ what’s his name” who married a virgin lass from Vladivostok 3-4 years ago (help me out JB).  I am not saying that J is a virgin, yet I will say she has little experience.

She comes from a functional, happy family, and that says a lot.  However, something seems strained in the relationship with her parents.  Perhaps they are overbearing.  Is she an only child?

If she has never taken a trip with a man before, then she will be nervous.  Particularly going with a man she barely knows.  Contrary to the saying “You will know when A RW likes you”, I say this one does like you.  However, she is so reserved if not uptight that she will not express it.

She has decided that she needs to spice up her life, and she has selected DKMN to help her.  If she chose you because you are “safe”, then nothing will happen.  If she chose you because she can trust you, then romance could bloom.

I think your trip will be very enjoyable, unlike the one I described for myself.  Take her to nice restaurants and lively nightspots.  Tour the archaeological sights.  Get away from the crowd to special snorkeling trips and picnics on an island beach.  Buy a lobster from a boatman and have it cooked on the beach and served in an elegant setting.

I know you do not like to drink, but one night you need to break the ice.  Start with a few tequila shots (my ex-fiancee loved mescal – and even ate the worm ).   Then ask her why she has a bug up her ass.  Try to get her to do a body shot. Encourage her to tell you her secrets.  She will if she trusts you, and she will even if she thinks you are “safe” as a gay friend should be.  This revelation will lead somewhere.  Maybe somewhere special.  OTOH, if she tells you nothing, then she is a waste of your time.  Conclude your trip peacefully and say poka.

My vacation from hell was because of different expectations.  My companion had romance and possibly marriage on her mind.  I was in a jaded phase and just wanted to enjoy the beach and female companionship.  I should have realized a problem when she kept asking why I did not use sweet, loving words in my emails preceding the trip.  Never again.

Your J is not asking you such questions.  No one knows J’s expectations, and for sure I would not push her until the tequila night.  Thus, you should not have any expectations either, even resigning to masturbation in the shower to keep from getting too randy. I think the odds are greater than 50-50 for a happy ending.

[Kuna]

You're a cack Gator... 

I love your style...  BODY SHOTS INDEED!

One day when you've finally settled down with the World's Luckiest Lady I'd love to bump into you somewhere in FSU for a quiet drink... BUT NO BODY SHOTS!

Ummm.. I'm not jb but I can pitch in with "ol' what's his name"... it was muckraker wasn't it???

Kuna

[jb]

and another “ol’ what’s his name” who married a virgin lass from Vladivostok 3-4 years ago (help me out JB).

Muckraker it is~!  Another wise young man (lawyer from Austin, TX) who had plenty of jingle, but didn't reveal too much in the beginning either.

[DKMM]

Unreal Gator, where do you come up with this stuff?  I like it!  I told wiz to play to win, so what the hell I am going to as well.  I don't like that term independently wealthy.  I bust my a$$ climbing the firm ladder, and I pay for all my own journeys on my own.  That and I've done well in the real estate market here on the West Coast but who hasn't?  And I am also blessed with parents that made smart investing choices so I'm set for early retirement.

I learned Russian in college.  At my school we had to pick a minor degree in liberal arts because I majored in Business Admin/MIS.  So I dared to be different and chose Russian.  That meant 3 years of language, and 1 year of culture.  I had NO idea at the time it would ever be useful to me but I loved it and studied hard nonetheless.  Its actually from that experience and getting to know some Russians at my school through the program that I thought I'd give RW a try 3 years ago but got caught up in my Latina relationship.  Last year I was in the right place in life to give it another shot, I found J's profile appealing 1st (and many others later) and here we are.

I just started talking to her again, as she got in an hour ago.  She went right from the 15 hour train ride to work (at a bank, don't most RW work at one?) and straight to talking to me.  Its as if all went well on the trip.  She thinks everything is great and is looking forward to our next one.  wth??? I'm gonna be giving y'all another TR in a few weeks...

[Michelangelo]

Unreal Gator, where do you come up with this stuff?  I like it!  

Me thinks 'ole Gator has a Ph.D. in the social sciences; I recognize the language.

But even more important, he has a Ph.D. in life 

[Michelangelo]

 She went right from the 15 hour train ride to work (at a bank, don't most RW work at one?) and straight to talking to me.  Its as if all went well on the trip.  She thinks everything is great and is looking forward to our next one.  wth??? I'm gonna be giving y'all another TR in a few weeks...

I also had a trip with a Russian girl who thought everything went great, even though I was disappointed and felt she was quite reserved.  (See my Turkey TR; Turkish Delight)

In retrospect, I think it's just the way some girls are "wired."

Good luck, and have fun 

[Son of Clyde]

I have seen Gator post on several boards. He is a master of understatement. You may need to read between the lines but Gator always gives excellent advice.  I don't think he would have a problem admitting he was wrong on some important issue. You can learn much from Gator and from jb. JB will pull no punches and Gator will often post in a less offensive manner. You can learn much from both men. I have. No one person is 100% accurate on every issue. You can learn a little from the older guys who have the experience with Russian women and life in general.

[START2]

DKMM....Gator,
   Gawd, talk about turning back the hands of time. After reading what you are about to do and Gators rendition of the perfect possibilty, I sat in front of this monitor reminiscing about a similar instance in my life that will/can never be captured again. Now I'm all misty. No, it didn't produce the love of my life. It doesn't even matter. I was young, near your age, stepping light in life and enjoying what life offered as opportunites appeared. For lack of a better term ,"foot loose and fancy free". I wasn't interested in being as conservative as I am now. I had only myself to be concerned about and even then as now, I have a clear conscience that I took never advantage of anyone.
    I don't remember when I started thinking about life as being serious. It could be when my first son came to me. My priorities changed. Then a second son. Then 15 years passed, and as I was talking to my son one day about women and responsibility in that area, it was my son who said, "Dad, are you always going to live alone"? You see, it was then my eyes were opened and I realized I had become a little stale compared to how I used to be. At that moment, I realized it was time for a change and I do remember that. A new chapter was opened in my life and in the course of events, I met my now wife and I feel that my life is young and exciting again.
   I said that to say this. I admire your zeal for life and the free spirit you dislpay. Go for the opportunites that come your way. It seems to me noone will be intentionally hurt. I'm sure there will come a day when you will look back at this time in your life and have a feeling of satisfaction that you LIVED and EXPERIENCED LIFE!! The worst thing  is to look back and have regrets and think, what if.
   As far as money goes. Obviously there's no problem there. For the rest, what's money for? We work, we spend and we work to make more. You can't take it with you.
  I wonder how many guys envy your position at this moment? To some, searching for their love has become serious business. I believe they lose sight that this should be a fun adventure. They put theirself on a time card and force the issue. Sometimes that can cloud rational thinking.
  Leslie was a bit rough in his comments. I feel I know where it comes from. He has a new wife and beautiful child. His priorites are different these days. It's more focused and like most new husbands and fathers, life has become more serious. He's doing the things required, and with that, comes a more conservative view.
  So, go have fun. Experience life, and if it affords you a fantastic adventure with no pressure or expectations you might just have 10 days that you will never regret and in time be able to reminisce as this has made me do. I guarantee you there are some here who will be sitting on the edge of their seat to hear your TR in a few weeks and wish it was them that was them that was sharing it.  I don't have to wish you luck. You already have it.
  
  

[jb]

LoL,,, that will be my defense when I face off with Saint Peter at the Pearly Gates,,, "but, Sir,, I know I've made mistakes, but I never ever set out to intentionally screw anybody.  I was never a used car salesman."

That ought to get me through the doors... Don'cha think?

[Gator]

Crikey!  Now the pressure is on.  Before anyone compliments me, please recognize that I have been running back and forth to Russia and Ukraine for over 4 years – AND I AM NOT MARRIED.  Yes, I have been close, but have not been able to pull the trigger.  Just because a man’s methods are different from those of other men, does not mean that his methods are wrong for him and the woman he pursues.

I have a good feeling that DKMM will enjoy his trip to the Caribbean.  For sure he will return a wiser man.  In any event, many of us will wait in anticipation for his trip report.  It should be a good one, with some interesting moments.  Bon voyage DKMM!

And JB, if I am there ahead of you, I will give St. Piter a good word about your character.  Hopefully I will forget to tell him that you eat Sandhill Cranes.

[Kuna]

Crikey!  Now the pressure is on.  Before anyone compliments me, please recognize that I have been running back and forth to Russia and Ukraine for over 4 years – AND I AM NOT MARRIED.  Yes, I have been close, but have not been able to pull the trigger.  Just because a man’s methods are different from those of other men, does not mean that his methods are wrong for him and the woman he pursues.

I have a good feeling that DKMM will enjoy his trip to the Caribbean.  For sure he will return a wiser man.  In any event, many of us will wait in anticipation for his trip report.  It should be a good one, with some interesting moments.  Bon voyage DKMM!

And JB, if I am there ahead of you, I will give St. Piter a good word about your character.  Hopefully I will forget to tell him that you eat Sandhill Cranes.

 

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA

 

Gator slipped in a "Crikey"!!!

Love it!!! 

Next thing we'll have him staying stuff like "Yeah mate naah but naah mate thanks yeah"

 

[Leslie]

DKMM,

You have shown rare class in your response.  I have a very simple question for you.

Are you seriously looking for a woman to marry or are you dating for fun ?

If you are dating for fun then enjoy the adventure.  Listen to Gator/Bucky/Phil. He is a seasoned hedonist !

If you are looking for a wife then you need to press the reset button and reboot your approach to this endeavour.

Your future wife needs the courage to emigrate; leaving all her friends and family half a world away,  the self confidence to build a new life in an alien culture, the maturity to build a lasting relationship.  I could go on a make a very long list here but I think it will suffice to say that the young woman you just visited has yet to develop any of these qualities.

She wants the vacation and parental approval but she does NOT want you.  This enterprise is so beset with difficulty that it has to begin right to have any significant chance of success. Move on.  WU the money back and cancel this trip.  Further effort here is inappropriate. 

If you want help reloading your matrix then e-mail me.