Age Gaps - A different perspective

[Michelangelo]

Zmejka/Mir,
It is an issue and it can still be an issue even if the woman in question thinks that she may not want children in the future.  Ever hear of a woman changing her mind?  :noidea:Huh? :noidea: Ever?  We have already had a member here that had his happy gap marriage go south because of this issue.
KenC

I agree.  A woman who says she does not want children will nonetheless usually want children in a few years.  So the man who marries any woman (AW or FSU) should expect that she will want children at some future point in time.

[Zmejka]

Thanks Turboguy and Michelangelo for the answers.
And KenC i enjoy your posts, i remember reading about that guy if i'm not mistaken, thanks for your input.

[Turboguy]

You miss the point entirely here.  It isn't because she is not the same, but that even beautiful women can be a pain in the ass too.  Beauty doesn't displace or compensate entirely the normal difficulties in a marriage.  The moment the man discounts his principals due to his wife's youth or beauty, he is doomed.

I can't argue about that a bit.  Having a beautiful wife has nothing whatsoever to do with having a happy marriage.  With AW is is almost a sign of domb.

I am sorry, but that is such a crock of sh!t, I cannot believe you put it in writing!  There is no way in the world you or Turbo are in a position to know what the hell your long term compatibility issues are or will be or if you even are compatible at this point of your relationship.  This doesn't mean that you may not be compatible, just that there is no way to know it or even have a good guess at it yet.  Go sell that one to someone that hasn't gone through the language, cultural, and age associated difficulties you are about to face.  Better yet, send a letter outlining your "success" to an agency for them to hype it to the next sucker.

In my married days everyone thought I had a wonderful marriage.  I was well aware that we did not.   I have seen many times that people who seemed like they had a wonderful marriage were suddenly getting divorced.  You can't be on the outside of a relationship and know what it is like on the inside.   As far as VWRW & I, I am on the inside and don't feel what she said was a crock of shi!t.  I don't discount that we will not face things in the future, or that life will not always be a rose garden.  I do beleive we are doing the right thing at the right time and you are not in a position to know anything much about our relationship. 

I realize that you are not our enemy here.  I am not taking your posts in that way.

Zmejka, I belive that was Jack who had that happen. 

[KenC]

I can't argue about that a bit.  Having a beautiful wife has nothing whatsoever to do with having a happy marriage.  With AW is is almost a sign of domb.

In my married days everyone thought I had a wonderful marriage.  I was well aware that we did not.   I have seen many times that people who seemed like they had a wonderful marriage were suddenly getting divorced.  You can't be on the outside of a relationship and know what it is like on the inside.   As far as VWRW & I, I am on the inside and don't feel what she said was a crock of shi!t.  I don't discount that we will not face things in the future, or that life will not always be a rose garden.  I do beleive we are doing the right thing at the right time and you are not in a position to know anything much about our relationship. 

I realize that you are not our enemy here.  I am not taking your posts in that way.

Zmejka, I belive that was Jack who had that happen. 

Turbo,
Please try to understand that I am not standing in judgement of your relationship here, but in the necessity of the decisions being made in such a hasty manner.  If the two of you were meant to be together and you have sincerely found true love, then why not take the more cautious course of action?  You are pushing a 35 year age difference, a huge cultural gap, a language difficulty in addition to all the "normal" trials and tribulation that come from a marriage.  Why are you so insistant on rushing into this?  Are you fearful of her changing her mind?  Is she fearful of losing you too?  If that is the case, then you both aren't so sure then are you?

You are in a position to spend a lot of time in Russia.  That is a tremendous luxury that most guys don't have available to them.  Slow down and enjoy the courtship.  Spend some quality non-vacation time together.  Enjoy your budding love.  There is no downside to this approach.  Even the time away from each other will help define the depth of your love for each other. 
KenC

[Mir]

Although I am sure there can be exceptions, by and large having a child/children is a very strong female instinct. I have seen women who are infertile and really despite having everything else they are so unhappy. So I am afraid if a young woman in love says that she doesn’t want children today, then it is very likely that a year or two into the marriage she will feel the need to have children.
On a different note, in the medical profession when women go for job interviews in male dominated specialities like surgery a favourite question used to be: ‘So what will happen when you become pregnant? Who will do your work etc.?’ So this girl who got fed up of not getting a job after such questions got hold of a specimen jar with a preserved uterus in it. Next time she was in front of the interview panel, she took the jar out of her bag, placed it on the table and said;’ Right, here is my uterus, now lets get on with the interview!’

[Kuna]

Kuna,

The above post is one of the better reality checks I've ever seen.  I suspect you are well on your way at this point.  I'll be interested to see if once you get in-country, that you don't engage in some little head thinking yourself.  It's hard to avoid.   

Hmmm... jb,  I'm only human, but I already know that I make CRAP decisions when sex is involved.

At home I've implemented a voluntary "No Sex Policy" which is a promise to myself that I won't become too intimate with a girl too quickly. It's amazing how differently you see someone if you're not "intimately involved".

I figure if I meet the girls and resist the urge for "immediate intimacy" I'll have a much more realistic view of who they are as people. Like I said before, I am only human though... but at least I know why I've made bad decisions in the past and now I can choose to follow a different path.

Thanks to you, Gator, Michaelangelo and others for the positive comments.  Your opinions are appreciated and respected.

Kuna

[Gator]

KenC,

To elaborate upon your two comments to me:

AGE GAP

My comment to Rivardco was not about "age gap", but about the "young age" of the women he was targeting (18-25) and the change they would experience.   I think your situation is the most akin to Rivardco’s because Lena was only 21??? when you married, and in your above post you immediately mentioned the amount of change that she underwent. 

I certainly have not dismissed women with a large age gap – I just narrowed it to the point that my American women friends now say, “That is almost age appropriate.”

RISK::REWARD

I mentioned that not because I am enamored with youth and beauty.  Nope, it is me and the way I have lived.  My partners risked everything we owned (and our bank would have taken the houses), and we made it happen with a big reward.  I was comfortable all the time (to be candid, most of the time).

The record is replete with men chasing women way out of their league, and when the likely happens  (such as dumping him after the first meeting), the men scream “scam”.  That is not being a man.  If you chase the hottest woman, be happy that you tried even though you failed, and move on.  Marrying one and soon divorcing certainly hurts, yet it should not be unexpected.  Remember Caulfield and the others.

[Gator]

VWRW,

You ask many thought provoking questions as usual.  To answer you:

GROWTH OF BEAUTIFUL, INTELLIGENT, CONFIDENT WOMEN

My ex-fiancee was 27 (your age???) when we first started dating.  She “grew” dramatically over three years as I showed her the "world" and she experienced opportunity, capitalism, gender equality, etc. As you surmised, she is highly intelligent and ambitious, with a determined drive to realize her own merit. She would be an ideal wife for a business owner looking for a partner at work as well as at home. 

I assume you and Turbo have thought this through because I envison you the same as my ex-, except without children your “growth” will happen fast.

TIME TO MARRY

Taking time is important to me because I happen to be very careful about re-marrying.  I have a very long list of considerations, and I will be ready to marry when I believe all of them are true. It would take a long time to know for certain that all are true.  Will I wait that long?  No.  Yet, there comes a time before knowing, when a person can believe they are true - not hoping they are true but deep inside believing they are true. 

[Gator]

Rivardco,

To return to you and your question.

I tend to project my thinking upon others, and that is wrong because we are all different.  I imagine that there are plenty of 21-yo RW (please no teenagers) contented with staying at home and raising a family.  Some are intelligent – they just are not ambitious about a career. Find you one of those who want to get pregnant soon.  Keep her pregnant, and be a good provider and father.  She will be happily entertained with children and cozy home. 

This is not what I would do today, but hell I am not you.

My ex-wife was like that, class Valedictorian and gorgeous, yet very happy raising our two sons and “volunteering” while I slaved away 60 hours per week.  Then one day my younger teenage son asked me, “Where’s mom?”

[KenC]

KenC,

To elaborate upon your two comments to me:

AGE GAP

My comment to Rivardco was not about "age gap", but about the "young age" of the women he was targeting (18-25) and the change they would experience.   I think your situation is the most akin to Rivardco’s because Lena was only 21??? when you married, and in your above post you immediately mentioned the amount of change that she underwent. 

I certainly have not dismissed women with a large age gap – I just narrowed it to the point that my American women friends now say, “That is almost age appropriate.”

RISK::REWARD

I mentioned that not because I am enamored with youth and beauty.  Nope, it is me and the way I have lived.  My partners risked everything we owned (and our bank would have taken the houses), and we made it happen with a big reward.  I was comfortable all the time (to be candid, most of the time).

The record is replete with men chasing women way out of their league, and when the likely happens  (such as dumping him after the first meeting), the men scream “scam”.  That is not being a man.  If you chase the hottest woman, be happy that you tried even though you failed, and move on.  Marrying one and soon divorcing certainly hurts, yet it should not be unexpected.  Remember Caulfield and the others.

Gator,
Maybe you are correct in that I was commenting on your advice to Rivarco regarding young RW and you were being cautionary (as you should) and that you were not addressing your plan of action.  Sorry for my confusion.

However....  When you say:

18 t0 25!!! That is such a young age for a woman.  Not so much your age difference of 15-20? years, but the amount of change that a 18 - 25 yo woman will undergo.  The odds are one of you will wake up one day and realize the other is not the person they fell in love with. 

You know the risk is high, yet the reward is great.  Are you MAN ENOUGH to accept the consequences of failure?   If so, go for it, but take a long time before marriage.  Do you have the time?  Does she?

 
It certainly appears that you are advocating that the rewards of being with a very young RW are somehow greater than those from a more mature woman even though the risks too are greater with the youngins.  No big deal, but it is how it came across to me.

I find it ironic that I am the one advocating older women and I married a 21 year old!  In my mind, my position is not contradictory because finding a RW that young was not a criteria for me. In fact, Lena's age was the one most negative part of the overall decision to marry.  When it was all said in done, it really was the only negative element of the whole decision making process.

The landscape has changed a lot since 1998.  Back then there were very few RW listed in their 30's and virtually none in their 40's. Today it seems that there is a lot bigger and better selection of "age appropriate" RW available.  I know I met and tried to meet some RW at LTP at that time and the 30 year olds were very hard to come by.
KenC

[Turboguy]

Turbo,
Please try to understand that I am not standing in judgement of your relationship here, but in the necessity of the decisions being made in such a hasty manner.  If the two of you were meant to be together and you have sincerely found true love, then why not take the more cautious course of action?  You are pushing a 35 year age difference, a huge cultural gap, a language difficulty in addition to all the "normal" trials and tribulation that come from a marriage.  Why are you so insistant on rushing into this?  Are you fearful of her changing her mind?  Is she fearful of losing you too?  If that is the case, then you both aren't so sure then are you?

Ken, If I had the least bit of worry about loosing her or felt she needed to have the least bit of worry about loosing me or I had any concern about her changing her mind, the last thing I would do is start a K-1 with her.   I am starting the K-1 because I believe neither of us will change their mind

You are in a position to spend a lot of time in Russia.  That is a tremendous luxury that most guys don't have available to them.  Slow down and enjoy the courtship.  Spend some quality non-vacation time together.  Enjoy your budding love.  There is no downside to this approach.  Even the time away from each other will help define the depth of your love for each other. 
KenC

There is a downside Ken.  She is there and I am here.  The time we spend on vacation is not that different than if we were in Barnaul except we can walk outside without freezing.  Our last 4 days together we spent 4 hours total doing tourist things.  Our decision was that we would spend any time together in warm places until April 1st and in Barnaul after April 1st. 

What is there to gain by waiting?  The cultural differences will still be there.  Her English may improve a bit but it is already excellent.  The trials and tribulations of a marriage will not go away.   We are both prepared to deal with those things and probably better prepared than most couples. 

We both know each other well enough that there will not be any big surprises.  We have enough chemistry that we are not going to loose it.   I don't think either one of us fell in love with the physical side of each other.   She is beautiful but that is not important to me.  I would feel the same about her if she was far less attractive.  I am far more in love with the inner person that is the real VWRW than the shell she walks around in.  She too seems to care more about the inner qualities she sees in me.   The only thing I can see that we would gain by waiting is frequent flier miles.   What I see we have to loose is time together.  A week or two every six weeks is nice but six weeks every six weeks is a lot better when you really want to be together. 

[Turboguy]

Ken,  It is obvious you think VWRW and I are rushing into something faster than we should before we really have had a chance to know each other and that we are two strangers foolishly plotting to spend a life together in the hopes of finding some delusional and imaginary Utopian life.   That about right?

My own personal take on it is that it is not the case.  VWRW actually knows me far better than my ex-wife did after 4 years of going together and 18 years of marriage.   If I had known my ex-wife as well after 4 years of going together as I do VWRW I would have gone running for the hills and saved myself 18 years of misery.

Keep in mind that before I knew she had any knowledge of RWD she found this site and spent 4 hours a day reading my posts until she had read all 2500 +/- of my posts here.   A woman who would do that WANTS to know someone. 

When Luda had problems at her interview she missed two questions.  One was the names of my kids.  The other was the city I lived in.  VWRW can tell you the names of my kids and probably more about them then some people who have met them.  She could probably tell you the names of my grandkids and a little of what each one is like.  She could tell you the names of many of my employees.  She knows what my morning routine is at home.  What toothpaste I use.  What I do in my free time.  What I eat for breakfast.  What bad habits I have.  What chores I like and dislike around the house.   How often I change the sheets on my bed at home.  She can tell you what my ideas are about everything under the sun. 

I am sure we have some things to learn about each other but they are probably less than many who have spent lots more time together than we have.   We have probably talked about issues we will face together and issues both of us will face in adapting to life with each other more than most anyone. 

My answer to this issue is the same as it was about the "fear of loosing each other"  If I did not feel we knew enough about each other to be taking this step I would not be taking it.  I have already made more than enough mistakes.   This is not a mistake.

[Gator]

KenC,

I now see your point. 

All else being equal most men would choose beauty and youth (high demand = high reward)However, “all else” is not equal.

BTW, my wife of 25 years was 4 years younger and I was very happy with her until the end.  At the opposite extreme my relationship with a 31-yo were three great years yet we broke up because we were at two different stages of life. 

Now I am settling in the middle.  I feel very contented with women (just one now) in their 40s.  And there are many of them, good looking and smart, craving for affection.  In general, they understand men and life better than most 20-somethings. They may seem independent at times but that is only because they know what they want.

[Gator]

TurboGuy,

I am glad that you feel this way.  Every human soul is hardwired for emotional connection.  It is a wonderful feeling – enjoy it. 

You are justifying your decision to us when the only two people who need to be satisfied are you and VWRW.  If you are seeking feedback, I will oblige.  And it will be kind.

You stressed the understanding that you have for each other.   This is certainly very important.  So are many other considerations.  For sure you communicate easily, readily and openly.  How about respect and trust?  You probably feel that these too are fine. 

Well how about conflict resolution?  How couples manage conflict reveals much about the future health of their relationship.   Not only to resolve a conflict but to do it productively and with a win-win solution.  Many people fail at this, and advance through the dangerous steps of escalation, invalidation, negative interpretations and withdrawal/avoidance.  Have you had a conflict other than choosing between Italian and McDonald's?

Have you developed a vision for your future together?  Have you defined your priorities?  How about forgiveness?  Jealousy?  I stop for now.  Maybe you will use the next few months while your K-1 incubates to clarify.  Nevertheless, if you are both committed absolutely to the relationship and if you both do your part completely, it will work.

[Gator]

Turboguy,

I am not sure if you mean “losing” or “loosing”.  The ability to let the other one “loose” (as in freedom - not keeping in a cage, not controlling) is one sign of true love.

[Turboguy]

Gator,  Thank you for your comments.  Yes, they were kind.  I will also comment that I value your ideas and opinions and consider you to be a very wise person and someone who has good reasoning abilities. 

As far as the comments.  I will take them one by one but will not go into a lot of detail which I think would be pointless. 

Yes, respect, trust and communication are outstanding.  I see no problems in any of those areas.   She has not given me the slightest reason to not trust her and I would not give her any reason to not trust me.

Conflict resolution does not seem to be a problem.  We are both very calm people and look at things much the same.  I do not expect us to have a lot of conflict but there have been times that there was the potential for it.   It did not create a problem.  (I am sure VWRW will read this so as a note just to her I am talking about the secret you would tell me when or when and possibly some things after I left Barnaul)  Neither of us seems to be the argumentative type Gator.  In my 18 years of miserable marriage, I believe we only had about three arguments and they were not bad arguments by comparative standards.   VWRW and I are both the types to talk things out.

We have had endless talks about all aspects of our future.  Our priorities are totally defined.   Too bad Bush did not have such well defined strategy in the war.   We have talked about everyting imaginable in that category.   There are things we have not decided but we have mapped out our methods for deciding them. 

Forgiveness,  We have talked about it and we have had situations where it came into play which were the same two things in the side notes to VWRW.   Neither of us would be very unforgiving about unfaithfullness otherwise I don't expect it to be a problem.  We have even had some interesting discussions about the differences in the way men and women view unfaithfullness. 

Neither of us seems particularly jealous within reason.   I was in a relationship with extreme and insane jealousy for 3 + years.  It is not something I would want to repeat.   I don't expect to give her any cause to be jealous and I think the same will be the case with her. 

You mention the loosing or losing.  I have mentioned to her that I want to be around her as much as possible but I also told her and we agreed that people need personal space and some privacy.  We have even discussed what we think we need which which we can modify when the time arrives.   

My reason in answering Ken was not to justify my actions.  I like Ken and I think he is a very smart guy.  It is only human nature to seek approval but I am also aware there are some people who don't think we have a snowball chance in hell and they are very welcome to their opinion.   Time will tell who was right. 

The point I was trying to make is more that how well you know someone does not always depend on the amount of time you have spent face to face.  I am not saying that is not important.  You can spend a lifetime with someone and not know them and you can spend a day with someone and have a pretty good feel for them.  Of course you can think you know everything about someone and in reality find you know nothing.   I think I know VWRW very well and I think she knows me about as well as anyone in my life ever has.  We are both very realistic about the cultural differences we will have to overcome and the changes she will face and that I will face in a life together.   

[KenC]

My reason in answering Ken was not to justify my actions.  I like Ken and I think he is a very smart guy.  It is only human nature to seek approval but I am also aware there are some people who don't think we have a snowball chance in hell and they are very welcome to their opinion.   Time will tell who was right. 

The point I was trying to make is more that how well you know someone does not always depend on the amount of time you have spent face to face.  I am not saying that is not important.  You can spend a lifetime with someone and not know them and you can spend a day with someone and have a pretty good feel for them. Of course you can think you know everything about someone and in reality find you know nothing.   I think I know VWRW very well and I think she knows me about as well as anyone in my life ever has.  We are both very realistic about the cultural differences we will have to overcome and the changes she will face and that I will face in a life together.   

Turbo,
You and VWRW simply do not have enough history together to really know much at all..  You have a great start to a relationship that has potential is about it as I see it. 

When I was single and dating many different AW, there was something I came to understand.  Nothing can replace time spent together to truly understand a relationship.  You may think you know each other but it is impossible without time together.  I had many a relationship that looked wonderful and almost perfect in the beginning.  I, like you, am an optimist.  (I think it is an inherent trait with entrepreneurs like us)  Being an optimist actually works against you taking the proper steps to build a relationship before you make too many commitments.  Along with the "can do attitude" you think that you can overcome whatever is thrown at you.  Marriage is not like a business.  It is not so black and white or so easily managed into successfulness.  There just are too many variables out of your personal control.

What I did learn during my dating years is that there is a euphoria in a new relationship that would last for about 6 months.  Mind you this is dating in America, with constant contact in all ways, not with the time and distance of dating a woman in Russia.  In every case the relationship would take on a different scenario at the 6 month mark.  I won't say that every woman was putting up a false front, or even suggest that VWRW is, but some did.

You two are pushing the envelope in almost every way possible, and it is just not necessary to burden your potential happiness with more.  You will do what you want I am sure.  My opinion doesn't really matter.  I wish you both the best, but I will also continue to point out your faulty arguments so as to not mislead others.  Good luck.
KenC

[Turboguy]

Ken,  I don't argue at all with the fact that there are things that VWRW and I are doing that I would not recommend for most others. 

I have seen one week wonders who found great success but they are rare.  Moving too fast with someone you don't really know is not a good idea. 

There is nothing to say except to repeat what I have already said and I don't feel a need to "get the last word in". 

I don't have any doubts about what we are doing or what speed we are doing it at.  Time will tell if I was right or wrong.  Thanks for your coments. 

[Gator]

Thanks for sharing.

I am amazed that in two short weeks together you and VWRW have developed a vision for a future together.  If you do not mind, what exactly is your vision?  I ask because this became a problem with my ex-fiancee.

You said no children, so that leaves work, hobbies, housekeeping and education (and the last is short-term).  Will VWRW work, and if so what will she do?  She seems too intelligent to accept mundane, low-paid job.  Are those jobs available in your little burg?  If she does not work, what will she do?  Are enough interesting activities available in your burg to occupy a bright mind? 

How about you?  What are your plans for continuing to work at your age?  Do the two of you plan to retire in your burg?

Your vision should address what happens when T/G kicks the bucket.  I know you will go for another 20+ years, and I hope they are healthy years, yet VWRW then will still be a young woman and will have needs.  What do your children think about someone who will need a large chunk of your estate?

BTW, conflict resolution is more than avoiding arguments, although the word “conflict” suggests such.  It is about recognizing and dealing with differences inherent in any relationship.

[Zmejka]

VWRW actually knows me far better than my ex-wife did after 4 years of going together and 18 years of marriage. 

I can believe everything, in general i like to believe people, but if this is true i can think of only 1 thing why it can be true:
actually because it's not true and in general it can't be so that someone you know from what? this September? knows you better than your wife of 22 years together in total. There's definately a problem to me to understand this fact, this is ridiculous, nobody else feel the same?
That's why i'm telling my own opinion just about these exact words that it's a total b/s pardon my French.

[viking]

I think it is time to give Turbo a break here. He is mature man who has experienced marriage, divorce, raising several children, establishing a business and running that business with all the interpersonal skills it takes to do this. He has been to the FSU more times than most of us put together. He has met many many women. He has been scammed and been through heart breaks. K-1's and almost k-1's. Tours, single visits, multiple visits ad nauseum. He knows what it is like to be in a place where you wonder just what the heck am I doing here. He is not going through this with blinders on. Not only does he know the drill, he wrote part of it.

He is spending time with a woman whose company he enjoys and who enjoys his company. They are both going through the questions and answers and soul searching, as best as anyone can under the circumstances, to figure it all out. Nobody knows what the future will hold and those of us who found someone,married her, and many years later found ourselves back out there know what I am talking about. You can be with someone 20 years and still find out little secrets here and there. It simple never ends.

So lets stop with all this analysis which is giving me paralysis. I know men like KenC and Gator have been there and their hearts are in the right place because no one wants to see this man get bruised. Others who can't get their butt off a chair and make it to the airport should plainly butt out altogether. And I am also sure that every question and concern that was been brought out has already gone through his mind. And hers. Neither appear to be foolish individuals.

Life is way too short and the older we get, the shorter it gets. T/G, go have some fun. Be in love, go make love, enjoy what is in front of you.

[KenC]

Viking,
All of what you say is true, except when Turbo or VWRW post some BS to justify their actions.  #1 it isn't necessary because they don't need to justify anything to anyone but themselves.  #2 I feel a responsibility to point the BS out to this forum so someone doesn't get misled.  #3 I feel I have the experience to do so because I am on the other side of an 8 year relationship with a 25 year age gap.

A good example of this  is the mis-information (BS) is what Zmejka pointed out:
VWRW actually knows me far better than my ex-wife did after 4 years of going together and 18 years of marriage
That simply cannot be true as Zmejka points out.  Think about how long 22 years is and think about childbirth, family deaths, losses, trials and tribulations of raising a family, building a business, the eventual break up of the marriage on and on and on.... compared to a couple of hot weeks in the sack?  That is total bullsh!t.  Turbo can go sell that somewhere else.
KenC
My sincere apologies to Rivardco for totally sidetracking his most excellent thread

[Turboguy]

I am not sure which part you think is BS Zmejka.  That a woman can spend 4+18 years with that guy who takes out the garbage and brings home the paycheck and be too wrapped up in yourself and your mother to know didly about him or that you can develop rapport and understanding with someone fairly quickly or both.  It does not take much to know me better than my ex did.  

Thanks viking.  I agree, this has been run into the ground.

KenC,  Since you both are so psysic to know what someones marriage was like that was thousands of miles away and ended long ago perhaps you want to tackle Jon Bennet and give us those answers.   I assure you VWRW knows me better than my ex.  No if's ands or buts.   Believe what you want.  I was there. 

[jb]

My sincere apologies to Rivardco for totally sidetracking his most excellent thread

Really? An excellent thread???  Get real, Ken.  So far I haven't seen the "Different Perspective" that was promised in the thread title. Just more of the same old arguments justifying inappropriate age differences.  We have seen all of this before,,, at least a thousand times.

This is turning out to be another delusional trip down de nile.

(sorry, he just got back from Egypt, I couldn't resist).

[KenC]

jb,
I meant before the Turbo interruption.  I thought there were some refreshing points of view on a tired subject.  I wish the Turbo/VWRW discussion could have been somewhere else.

Turbo,
Whatever.  (BS)
KenC