Age Gaps - A different perspective

[Turboguy]

I don't know that I would go so far to say refreshing but it was looking at things a little differently than what we ususally see. 

I suggest if everyone has everything off their chest we go back to the original topic.  This has gotten into an area that I am not comfortable talking about.  I do my best to never think about my marriage and to not talk about my marriage unless I absolutely have to.   It was a never ending nightmare for me.  Believe what you want.  It would take anyone about 15 minutes for anyone to know me better than my ex did.  Let's get back to the age thingy.

[Vaughn]

  Let's get back to the age thingy.

OK. Here's my different perspective, which I've shared privately with one list member. There is a 38 year age gap between me and my stepdaughter. The things we share in common:
1) We dwell in the same home.
2) We both love the same person (her Mama, my wife)

I find it bizarre to even entertain a relationship with someone that much younger than myself, and I submit that in ten years it'll still be unthinkable. It's got nothing to do with what others might think. I love children, but it'd be difficult for me to actually be in love with one. Can anybody explain to me just what fullfillment one finds with a girl who thinks that Joseph McCarthy was one of the Beatles?

[Turboguy]

But she is a young girl.  That does make a difference. 

[jb]

But she is a young girl

That's vaughn's point, so is vwrw.  Relatively speaking.

[Turboguy]

Well, I have to admit that I would be surprised if she knew who Joseph McCarthy was.

[Momus]

I just returned from Moscow on Thursday and admitedly haven't been visiting the site as often...but it's refreshing to see that things haven't changed much around here. 

I'll try to be more kind than Ken and avoid the word "foolish," but the one thing I will never understand is why people always feel the need to try to justify and rationalize what are clearly...unwise...decisions. This thread is so reminiscent of the legendary Photoguy thread it's uncanny (though it hasn't metastasized to that degree as of yet).

For myself, if TG just said something along the lines of the following, I'd have no real problem with it.

"I'm getting older and I've been kicking around in the FSU for 10 years now. I can't know that VWRW is the right woman after a couple weeks with her, but I hope and believe she is. I know that a 30+ year age gap is very unlikely to work out, but I hope and believe it will. And I've reached a point in my life where I'm not willing to wait around for something to go wrong. I'm going to jump and hope that there is water in the pool."

Given TG's situation, I might even shrug and say, "Hell, dude's sixtysomething. He's got a point." But at least there'd be no danger of newcomers mistaking a pure, unadulterated leap of faith for the measured actions of a veteran. And we wouldn't have to fill yet another thread with the usual "We're an exception...you don't know us...you don't understand our relationship" rationalizations.

Now that I'm actually involved in the mother of all long-distance relationships, I can even understand the allure of impulsiveness. I'd like nothing more than to be with M. I think she's perfect for me and I think she'll make a great wife and life partner. It's much harder not to be with her than I expected when I got into this. I'll even admit that I've given more than a few passing moments to the thought of leaping myself. It's sooo tempting. It would be exciting and adventurous to just let 'em roll and try to make it work.

But...I just...can't...do it. Instead, I'll put the time, money, and energy into our courtship, so that when the time is right we'll have some reason to believe, other than blind faith, that we belong together. I'm even looking into the possibility of finding work in Moscow to make that a little easier.

And, of course, because I want to be with her, and relocating to Moscow seems slightly less impulsive than a hasty marriage proposal. 

[Turboguy]

Welcome back.  It sounds like you had a great trip.  I hope everything works out for you.  That would be cool to work in Moscow.   

[KenC]

I just returned from Moscow on Thursday and admitedly haven't been visiting the site as often...but it's refreshing to see that things haven't changed much around here. 

I'll try to be more kind than Ken and avoid the word "foolish," but the one thing I will never understand is why people always feel the need to try to justify and rationalize what are clearly...unwise...decisions. This thread is so reminiscent of the legendary Photoguy thread it's uncanny (though it hasn't metastasized to that degree as of yet).

For myself, if TG just said something along the lines of the following, I'd have no real problem with it.

"I'm getting older and I've been kicking around in the FSU for 10 years now. I can't know that VWRW is the right woman after a couple weeks with her, but I hope and believe she is. I know that a 30+ year age gap is very unlikely to work out, but I hope and believe it will. And I've reached a point in my life where I'm not willing to wait around for something to go wrong. I'm going to jump and hope that there is water in the pool."
Given TG's situation, I might even shrug and say, "Hell, dude's sixtysomething. He's got a point." But at least there'd be no danger of newcomers mistaking a pure, unadulterated leap of faith for the measured actions of a veteran. And we wouldn't have to fill yet another thread with the usual "We're an exception...you don't know us...you don't understand our relationship" rationalizations.

Now that I'm actually involved in the mother of all long-distance relationships, I can even understand the allure of impulsiveness. I'd like nothing more than to be with M. I think she's perfect for me and I think she'll make a great wife and life partner. It's much harder not to be with her than I expected when I got into this. I'll even admit that I've given more than a few passing moments to the thought of leaping myself. It's sooo tempting. It would be exciting and adventurous to just let 'em roll and try to make it work.

But...I just...can't...do it. Instead, I'll put the time, money, and energy into our courtship, so that when the time is right we'll have some reason to believe, other than blind faith, that we belong together. I'm even looking into the possibility of finding work in Moscow to make that a little easier.

And, of course, because I want to be with her, and relocating to Moscow seems slightly less impulsive than a hasty marriage proposal. 

Momus,
That was a lot nicer than what I said and I think you hit the nail on the proverbreal head.  Interesting that you make a parallel with PG (and we all know how that turned out)

Any details you want to share about your trip?  Posting a trip report?  You have a good head on your shoulders and I am sure you will do fine.  Best of luck to ou and M.
KenC

[Mir]

It would take anyone about 15 minutes for anyone to know me better than my ex did.

It is because for those interested you transfer info at turbo speed!

Seriously it is quite possible not knowing a person at all in arranged marriages and then continue not knowing them for next 30 years of marriage (despite having 6 children) but it is rather odd in a normal marriage with its courtship etc.

That would be cool to work in Moscow.   

And at times freezing cold.

Hey TG now that you are engaged and soon to be married maybe you should consider changing your handle to Turbo Moosh (just a thought)

[Bruce]

Big age gaps and children.  I am 46, my wife is 27 and we have a 13 month old daughter together.  We are doing quite well, looking forward to some day having another, though not right now - no way (maybe trying for another in 2008 at the earliest)!  One bundle of joy walking around looking to destroy everything or at the very least touch and put everything in her mouth everything in her path is all we can handle right now.  Every meal our daughter has my wife cooks by hand with organic ingredients for her.  She also makes cottage cheese from Kefir herself for our daughter and I (skim milk for me so unfortunately it is not as good).  This all takes time.  Our daughter just hates being in a play pen, so one of us is watching her at all times.  Russians prefer someone to watch the baby at all times, as is American advice, because no matter how "child proof" an area is the child always figures out a way to get into something she should not.  We have a Russian babysitter (old grandmother) who comes two or three times each week to help out.  The biggest problem is not having a functional grandmother to help, so we only recently hired the grand mother babysitter.  My mom is too old to help raise a child.  Russian / Ukrainian women are used to grandmother helping out.   When I can I walk the baby, now play with her in the park.  Babyhood, especially with a Russian - American is a full time job by all means not to be taken lightly.  Forget about the added expenses, it is the time.  Our baby is outside at least two hours a day playing in the park and usually more.  It takes time to put our child in the stroller and take her to the park and back.  It can get old quickly, dressing to go out, changing when you come back etc.  Diapers is the least of the problems, but of course a potentially messy one.  You older experienced grandfathers out there when you think back can relate.  I would not miss it for the world and we will have another some day because I do not want my daughter to be an only child but.....................the answer is it is easy for a man with a more than 15 year old age difference to have a child with a relatively younger Russian woman, but the caveat is the man should be in excellent health, with the extreme want to have a child / eventually children (I never had children before and it was something I wanted to do, as much as my wife), you need family support which I have ie. presents and love (just not physical support which would be nicer).  Luckily for me, I have MIL comming for the next six weeks which should help.  You heard it here first, a guy happy his MIL is comming to live in his house for six weeks. 

As far as Turbo and VRW I can not judge if they will work out or not.  I have read about guys who look so good on paper failing miserable and others who seem to be working out with huge odds against them.  Turbo has many pluses.  He is experienced in the FSU and should know what he wants, and I sure hope it is not just a hot body.  He does not mind travelling and has plenty of get up and go.  He is a problem solver not afraid to make a mistake he can not correct.  He is experienced in life.  He has money and remember, "money does hide a lot of ugly (not that Turbo is ugly)."  Vrw is fluent in English, so their communication is fine.  They look good together in photos.  Negatives - they have not met each others family and friends.  They have only really spent time in vacation settings.  Since the fiance visa time period takes a while Turbo will have time to spend in Barnaul meeting VRW's family and friends which will help him determine if it is the right decision for him.  VRW will only know when she hits Stateside - but this is all RW, not just a Turbo / VRW problem.  VRW will like rural / semirural Pennsylvannia because she is comming from Barnaul.  Sorry VRW Barnaul is one of my least favorite "cities" in the FSU - but its good for Turbo, because almost any place they go will seem better (except a place like Egypt - oh yeah, Egyptians are they kind of people they really want to get to know).  VRW will change and grow as a person and have all new opportunities open to her in America which she will or will not exploit.  That is the huge wild card.  What she says now to Turbo may invariably change, be modified.  Turbo may or may not accept this.  Turbo will in ten years be 75.  VRW will be 37.  Those are daunting numbers to think about.  These are very serious hard choices to make.  If VRW really has a pure soul, with Turbo's best intentions at heart it will work.  The key is Turbo's understanding.  I think Turbo will make the right decision.  Sorry for breaking it down in a perhaps too personal way, but it helps people understand at least my thinking about how they should be thinking.  Best of luck.......................and think hard and long before you all have children!

[tim 360]

I will be very brief here.  There are age gaps and then...there are age gaps.  I have to say that to me a 38 year age gap is off the Richter scale when it comes to marriage.  All deference to Turbo's justifications.  I am quite liberal in the age dept and 20 years would not be a big problem in my mind.  But 38???? ???

[Turboguy]

As far as Turbo and VRW I can not judge if they will work out or not.  I have read about guys who look so good on paper failing miserable and others who seem to be working out with huge odds against them.  Turbo has many pluses.  He is experienced in the FSU and should know what he wants, and I sure hope it is not just a hot body.  He does not mind travelling and has plenty of get up and go.  He is a problem solver not afraid to make a mistake he can not correct.  He is experienced in life.  He has money and remember, "money does hide a lot of ugly (not that Turbo is ugly)."  Vwrw is fluent in English, so their communication is fine.  They look good together in photos.  Negatives - they have not met each others family and friends.  They have only really spent time in vacation settings.  Since the fiance visa time period takes a while Turbo will have time to spend in Barnaul meeting VWRW's family and friends which will help him determine if it is the right decision for him.  VWRW will only know when she hits Stateside - but this is all RW, not just a Turbo / VWRW problem.  VWRW will like rural / semirural Pennsylvania because she is comming from Barnaul.  Sorry VRW Barnaul is one of my least favorite "cities" in the FSU - but its good for Turbo, because almost any place they go will seem better (except a place like Egypt - oh yeah, Egyptians are they kind of people they really want to get to know).  VRW will change and grow as a person and have all new opportunities open to her in America which she will or will not exploit.  That is the huge wild card.  What she says now to Turbo may invariably change, be modified.  Turbo may or may not accept this.  Turbo will in ten years be 75.  VRW will be 37.  Those are daunting numbers to think about.  These are very serious hard choices to make.  If VRW really has a pure soul, with Turbo's best intentions at heart it will work.  The key is Turbo's understanding.  I think Turbo will make the right decision.  Sorry for breaking it down in a perhaps too personal way, but it helps people understand at least my thinking about how they should be thinking.  Best of luck.......................and think hard and long before you all have children!

Bruce, that was one of the more logical and well thought out posts of the thread.  Thank you for your objective observations and I wish you the best of luck with your marriage and little child.  Kids can make a marriage very special and I am glad your marriage has given you the opportunity to experience that. 

As far as the analogies to PG, I am glad you all see it, I don't.   Larisa did not speak English when they met.  They had not kissed when they got engaged.  PG was a newbie with little experience.  (He is gaining some but unfortunately had to get his heart broken in the process).  He had not met her friends and family.  I have met VWRW's friends and family.  I have also spent time with her in non vacation settings etc. etc. 

Momus, I did not say much about your comments last night and I really do appreciate your attempt to add some logic to what seems to confuse many of you but if I said something like you suggested it would only be to try and justify my actions because there is nothing there that parallels reality from my perspective.   I really would not feel comfortable saying something I don't believe just because people would accept it.   I don't feel I have to justify my actions but it is fun to debate with Ken and jb once in a while. 

If someone feels a need to put reason to what they don't understand they are welcome to think I must have taken a fall and whacked myself a good one on the noggin or have dispensed so much advice to newbies that their inexperience has rubbed off on me.

Mir,  TurboMoosh agrees with you.  Moscow can be very cold.  I guess it is something you get used to.  I noticed in Egypt that in 70 degree weather the locals were wearing winter coats.  I think you get used to heat too but getting used to either is not something that appeals to me.

Tim, thanks for your comments.  I can't disagree that it is a bigger gap than usual but there have been bigger gaps that have worked quite fine.  I won't say it can not present challenges.   All I can say is that at this stage it does not appear to be a problem for us.  I never think about her age.  She tells me she does not notice the difference in our ages and for me it is the same.  We have had long talks about the realities of the age difference and are comfortable with the solutions we have found.  Perhaps 10 or 20 years from now it will present problems.  We will deal with that when the time comes.   I have to agree with Bruce's comment  "I have read about guys who look so good on paper failing miserable and others who seem to be working out with huge odds against them. "  VWRW and I will be fine.  Neither of us is getting into this with any doubts or questions.   We both had a lot of options and neither was desperate.   Neither of us is in a hurry except to be together.

[Zmejka]

It does not take much to know me better than my ex did.

Then i have difficult time wondering what makes one stay for 18 years in such a marriage. But anyway wish you both luck and dignity to face all the ups and downs your marriage will bring.

[vwrw]

I see some of you forgot – ALIVE people are unpredictable. Changing of one’s attitudes, values and goals is rather a sign the one is alive and than he/she is young. Kuna, how old you were when you read the book what very much change you? What would be if you find the book 5 year later than you did? Could the book still change you as it did? I think “Yes”. Hence, one may be changed in any stage of his/her life.
Kuna, I believe by using your head you will find the woman you are looking for. But there is not a guaranty in life she will not find a “book” what changes her. And there is not a guaranty you will love new her.
I had a wonderful relationship during 5 years. We had similar attitudes, values and goals but it happened so that I had fulfilled my goals earlier than him. As a result I understood what I got is not for me. My attitudes, values and goals changed…we separated. Does it mean we made a bad decision when we decided to be together? “NO! It does not. I am still thankful to the circumstances what connected us a day. Perhaps, we still would be happy if I were not so successful in getting the goals of mine.
I think if one wants safety, prediction and guaranties in relationship with woman he needs to buy a rubber woman and to enjoy being with her.
I love people are unpredictable that is why people are interesting; I love life is unpredictable and that is why life is attractive! Also I know if people make each other to be happy they will fight with all world (if there is a need to do that) to be together. And people will not make each other to be happy if their favorite way to spend time together is thinking about potential mistake, threats and others similar negative things what they may (as well as may not) in their common future. 
From KenC:
You and VWRW simply do not have enough history together to really know much at all… 

KenC and Zmejka,
I do not need to HAVE enough history together with T/G to know him well. I need to KNOW enough HIS history to know him well. I mean I know what Turbo’s actions were in various life’s situations in past. And I understand probable (person is unpredictable) he would act similar if we have similar situations in our future. 

Gator, I had never met such a person as you are in reality but only in books and documentary movies. The more I learn about you the more it seems to me you are actual entailment of the advices and rules (how to be successful) I have ever learned.
Gator, I know if one wants to successful (it is not important what field) he needs to have a vision of the future he pursues. We have a vision of our future together and we both are agreed with it. But I will need not less than a month to describe the vision exactly on paper. Gator, you know scientists say - the speed of thoughts is higher than even the speed of sun’s rays.   

[Gator]

Hi Turbo (and VWRW too),

You have a likable style and you seem to be a very decent man.  VWRW is also likable; she certainly is intelligent and differs from most women, especially those her age, in her philosophy and her ability to transcend ordinary thinking.   I hope that somehow your journey together is happy.

With those good wishes, I feel somewhat uneasy about making comments that raise issues or even cast doubt.  Further, VWRW reads these posts so this can not be a man-to-man chat.  Nevertheless,   I feel compelled to make some comments that will help you and VWRW as you work through some sensitive issues before you go too far down this road.  Hopefully it will help.

For sure I will not expect any questions to be answered.  Thus my specific questions about your vision of the future with VWRW should remain unanswered, and besides VWRW’s vision is so broad that her description would be longer than a Russian novel.   In the case of my ex-fiancée with a smaller yet still huge age gap, just asking  the questions fomented much lively discussion, focused us on some inevitable sensitive situations, and revealed much about our ability to discuss sensitive subjects and to work together to resolve our differences productively. 

How we take care of the women we bring to America is important to all AM-FSUW marriages, even when age gap is not an issue.   I assume your attorney would recommend a pre-nup for any marriage considering that you have a family owned business.  Your attitude and her attitude about a pre-nup will reveal much.   It would be wonderful if she said, “I love you so much that I don’t want your money, I want only you.”   It also would be wonderful if you said, “I love you so much that I want to make sure you are taken care of if I predecease you or if time proves that remaining married is not best for us.”

Now one unkind comment that will not help.  Even though it is late in the year I think the following may just win the Understatement of the Year Award: “…it is a bigger [age] gap than usual but there have been bigger gaps that have worked quite fine.”

This ranks just below Gen. Custer’s: "Over that hill I think there are a few friendly Indians."

People always hold up the example of the 43-year gap with Senator Strom Thurmond (who incidentally fought at the Battle of Normandy when he was 41).  During my first meeting with my ex-fiancee’s grandmother (what a woman - former stage actress who toured Europe, spoke some English), I expressed my concern about the age gap and she immediately used Thurmond as a successful example.  Yes, his example endured.  What is the percentage, however.

Now VWRW, I see you with your largest smile when you have ahold of the wheel to the Nile River boat.  I also read that you outgrew your Russian man in 5 years, and I can believe it.  America has immense opportunities for growth.  It is apparent that you will outgrow Turboguy too, and not too far in the future. 

And Turboguy, you spent 18 years in what seemed to be a loveless marriage.  You have been on a quest for a woman’s love for a long time.  You deserve some loving, and I think you will receive it in ample quantities from a very interesting woman for at least a year or two.  And you will have a shot at making it longer, becoming the next Thurmond.  Maybe this is all you want for now.  And from my initial impressions, VWRW is kind and she will make sure that you have the latest model of a rubber woman (that was funny).  And maybe you would not want anymore then.

Enjoy these years!

[Zmejka]

Just wish you luck again. Thanks. You seem like a strong person, hope you'll stay the same.

[KenC]

. 
From KenC:
You and VWRW simply do not have enough history together to really know much at all… 

KenC and Zmejka,
I do not need to HAVE enough history together with T/G to know him well. I need to KNOW enough HIS history to know him well. I mean I know what Turbo’s actions were in various life’s situations in past. And I understand probable (person is unpredictable) he would act similar if we have similar situations in our future. 

VWRW,
In all fairness, what you have been told by Turbo is his version of his history.  It is not the same as experiencing it together nor necessarily accurate.  I am not suggesting that he would lie, but it will be told only from his perspective.  For example, I am sure my version of my previous marriage and divorce would greatly differ from my ex wife's version.
KenC

[Zmejka]

And wanted to ask you VWRW about that children question - before Turboguy said it from your words - how do you see this perspective yourself? Don't in general idea of having children appeal to you?

[vwrw]

Zmejka,
I “have” enough people I love unconditionally and they love me unconditionally I believe that is why I have never wanted to “have” own children. Maybe it is abnormally I do not care and I still cannot understand what could make me to want own child. Maybe you explain me?
   

[El Rock]

VWRW,
In all fairness, what you have been told by Turbo is his version of his history.  It is not the same as experiencing it together nor necessarily accurate.  I am not suggesting that he would lie, but it will be told only from his perspective.  For example, I am sure my version of my previous marriage and divorce would greatly differ from my ex wife's version.
KenC

There is  real truth  . only one's perspective , as seen through his/hers  eyes  via their lifes experiences  , I mean , filtered   through their liges experiences

[Turboguy]

Then i have difficult time wondering what makes one stay for 18 years in such a marriage. But anyway wish you both luck and dignity to face all the ups and downs your marriage will bring.

It was a combination of thing Zmejka.  One was I was not much of a believer in divorce and took the "till death do us part seriously"  The other was that I enjoyed being around my children and knew it would not be the same if I left.

VWRW,
In all fairness, what you have been told by Turbo is his version of his history.  It is not the same as experiencing it together nor necessarily accurate.  I am not suggesting that he would lie, but it will be told only from his perspective.  For example, I am sure my version of my previous marriage and divorce would greatly differ from my ex wife's version.
KenC

I think the same applies to virtually every divorce.  My wife's version would have me a sex crazed maniac who wanted a harem of women which was as far from the truth as you could get.

[Jack]

People, Turbo and vwrw are both grown up and mature adults, Turbo just a little more grown up than others.

These two mature adults know what's going on. No one has to tell vwrw that Turbo is a lot older, no one has to pound it into Turbo's head that vwrw is a lot younger. So what!

I could see us all trying to help some newby who we were concerned about getting scammed. Turbo is no newby, he knows what's going on and although I have not talked to Turbo about this my own personal thoughts are that if Turbo and vwrw enjoy only two years together, it would be a good two years. If they enjoy 4 or 7 years together, it will have have been a good 4 or 7 years.

And if they spend 10 years together their ain't no way in hell none of us are going to be able to get that smile off Turbo's face when he is laid to rest.

[Momus]

Any details you want to share about your trip?  Posting a trip report?  You have a good head on your shoulders and I am sure you will do fine.  Best of luck to ou and M.
KenC

Thanks for the kind words, Ken. Moscow was great, and M was even better. No trip report this time. Other than one afternoon at Red Square, we rarely left the flat, so what I'm willing to write about wouldn't make much of a story. 

TG, thank you also for the kind words and the welcome back. The parallel with PG is that, like him, you are acting unwisely and then offering the same kinds of rationalizations when you are questioned about it. And, as with PG, it's clear that no one is going to change your mind, so I truly do wish you and VWRW all the best.

[Zmejka]

Maybe it is abnormally I do not care and I still cannot understand what could make me to want own child. Maybe you explain me?

You know i can't explain it, everyone decides for oneself. I'm not a usi-pusi kind of person but i believe children are our future, i want to hear one day somebody call me "mama", i know that now i'm not ready for them but in general - yes. And i want to see how my and my man's features are being seen in our children - or may be we could even notice some features from other members of our family? I don't know, there're women who don't want children but i think a few never regretted about it in the end. But it's just my point of view.

[jb]

Welcome home, Momus, I'm pleased to hear you had a good trip to Moscow.  It is an amazing city.  (Even if you didn't leave the flat much).  I'm capable of filling in the blanks...

And you are quite right, nothing anyone could say will disuade T/G and vwrw from their chosen path.  As Jack said, they are both grown up adults.  We can do nothing more for them than to point out the handwriting writ large upon the wall.  They will either read it or not.

There is the tiny little voice in the back of my head that keeps saying,,,, "reserve the right to say I told you so", 'cause this deal is a bookmaker's dream come true.