The Previous Research Project - Cyberbrides in America (Planet-Love)

[smsmsmsm]

JB,

The word "feminist" pops up because the majority of the studies on "mail order bride" or cross border dating/marriage come from that particular perspective. I am simply stating a fact.

"What's being put on the spot are men who seeking brides from impoverished countries, in this particular case countries of the Former Soviet Union." This is Jooky's comment. My saying the economic conditions compelling FSU seeking foreign husbands is simply paraphrasing his point. I did not mean it was the only reason. And yes, scholars have examined the situations of war brides and the impact they have on the immigration history of this country. There were no more geopolitical factors than now. The political context is different. That is all.

I think you misunderstood my point about the internet. I was not talking about the use of internet. I was talking about how the Russian women websites were constructed and how they were different from regular American personals websites, such as match.com or eharmony. 

As a matter of fact, the majority of the studies on cross border dating/marriage have been on Asian women, Filipino women in particular. Russian women's popularity is a later phenomemon. In fact, I haven't seen any study on men who pursue Russian women, not to mention men who pursue foreign women in general.

Ada

 

[jb]

The word "feminist" pops up because the majority of the studies on "mail order bride" or cross border dating/marriage come from that particular perspective.

The word "feminist" pops up because AW feel threatened and insecure, no other reason.

This is Jooky's comment.

Jooky is a good, and well informed individual.  If he elects to participate in your study I hope you treat him kindly and don't take his comments out of context.

I think you misunderstood my point about the internet.

I misunderstood nothing.

I was talking about how the Russian women websites were constructed and how they were different from regular American personals websites, such as match.com or eharmony.

Now you are surveying the technical expertise of a web designer, and this has nothing to do with, or about, the FSU ladies being presented on individual websites.   Please get your story straight about what you are pollling.

  As a matter of fact, the majority of the studies on cross border dating/marriage have been on Asian women, Filipino women in particular. Russian women's popularity is a later phenomemon. In fact, I haven't seen any study on men who pursue Russian women, not to mention men who pursue foreign women in general.

Then you admit you have no clue as to what you are asking about here.  The RWD does not exist to educate you.  Frankly, I'd prefer you to simply hide in the lurker's shadow and gather what mis-information you will, without disrupting the normal flow of information that happens here.  The RWD exists as a medium of information dissemination, from the experienced guy to the newbie, you have come along and placed a damper on free speech.  I no longer feel free to communicate freely because I know you are in the background and are apt to quote some tidbit out of context.

As I stated earlier, I don't trust you.  I hope that doesn't hamper your "scholarly" study, but I just think you've trained your microscope in the wrong direction. 

[Jooky]

I see...

In the case of FSU, it is the geopolitical and economic conditions that compel Russian women to seek foreign husbands.

Is that a fact?  

Do you consider Russia a Third World Country? (It's not.)

I can see that without spending time in Russia yourself, you're not going to get a good grasp of what is going on there.

First of all, only a small percentage of Russian women seek foreign husbands. Among those that do they do so for many different reasons:

1. Marketing. Just as bridal sites and agencies portray Russian women as the mythical perfect bride, in Russia they portray American (or other foreign) men as mythical perfect husbands. I'd be surprised if living in America you've never heard a woman complain 'there are no good men left'. I've heard it a million times. Russian women say the same and agencies have tapped into this. 'There are no good men in Russia? Ah, but there are plenty of good men overseas!'.

2. Enticement. Did anyone here every wonder why percentage wise there are so many attractive women on Russian dating and marriage sites? Are Russian women as a whole really so beautiful? Maybe so. But, the true reason is that pretty women are often recruited off the streets to join agencies. They are asked to place an ad in exchange for a free professional photo shoot for example. Not a bad deal, and the key is appealing to a woman's vanity.

Some agencies run events such as beauty contests and all women social gatherings that entice women to participate in an agency. Some agencies pay women directly to go on dates.

Now before you start thinking that the above happens in Russia for economic reasons, think again. The same happens daily and successfully here in the United States but with the porno industry. Instead of writing a letter to a foreigner, however, the girl enticed gives a blow job to a local.

3. Cultural rejection. Many (I would say most) Russian women who do in the end up marry foreigners are divorced and/or with children. Single mothers are not as accepted in Russia as they are in the United States. They do have trouble finding local men, even if they are wonderful women. This is a cultural, not economic or geopolitical reason.

4. Expanding opportunities. Most of the women you'll see using international dating or marriage sites aren't insisting on marrying a foreigner. They are simply open to the possibility. Some of the larger dating sites, for example, place a woman's ad on Russian sites but ask her if she's open to placing the same ad on an international site.

5. Weather. I'm not kidding either! The weather in most of Russia sucks. Winter is depressing. If a woman has the chance to find a good husband and the hell out of the cold, why not?

Those are just a few reasons Russian women seek, or rather are open to meeting foreigners. Most do so on a whim. I have yet to personally meet a Russian woman compelled by economics to seek a foreign man.

I don't deny that it happens. Certainly there are women who that use bridal agencies to their economic advantage and abuse men for a free ride the United States. Some women marry for money, universally. An agency system that attracts apparently wealthy foreigners is going to attract opportunists. Of course.

In those cases it's the men who get taken advantage of. The women manipulate the situation. They are not victims.

Regarding the scholarly critiques presented, I would categorize their arguments as fiction.

1. Russian bridal or dating sites work exactly like match.com. A man can scan women's ads on the net. A woman can likewise view men's ads. If a man is interested in a woman, he sends a photo and introduction. A woman can reply to this response or ignore it.

Some agencies do require women to respond to all men. This is true, but the sole intention is to generate income. The responses often do not come from the women themselves, and the women are not obligated to actually meet these men. This, of course, is pure scam.

2. Russian sites do present a nicer package. That was my point with the links I posted above. In part this is the lure of advertisement. Agencies are in it to make a buck, not to link oppressors with victims. What your scholars fail to mention is that this well presented package appears on both sides of the sea. Both men and women are lured by agencies. The men foot the bill.

However, take a look at this site: http://www.bride.ru A nicer package than match.com? I'd say so.

The ladies on this site put up those ads and photos. No agencies involved. These same ads come appear on Russian dating sites. Presenting them to the foreign public is simply an option.

There's no oppression here. This is how these ladies present themselves. If these ads are more appealing than the ads on match.com perhaps that is part of the true lure of Russian women.

3. Have any of these scholars even been to Russia? Have you? Do you plan to?

4. Let me add something about my comment:

"What's being put on the spot are men who seeking brides from impoverished countries, in this particular case countries of the Former Soviet Union."

Yes, men are seeking brides from impoverished countries, and this is being criticized. However, the reason these men seek brides in these countries in most cases is not because they are impoverished. The economics present an opportunity much more for the agencies and not the individuals, unless the individuals are scammers.

The honest individuals have other diverse reasons for considering a foreign mate. Compulsion is not the correct term.

My saying the economic conditions compelling FSU seeking foreign husbands is simply paraphrasing his point.

Ay ay ay. Absolutely not. See above.

[SANDRO43]

Would the relationship between Asian-American and Russian women be considered a form of colonalism?

In your specific case, more a form of possible mental self-destruction through contagion from inert brain matter (the Mad Rabbit variant of Spongiform Encephalopathy) .

[Photo Guy]

'In the case of FSU, it is the geopolitical and economic conditions that compel Russian women to seek foreign husbands. The scholars would argue that this constitutes the unequal relationship between Western men and Third World/FSU women. It is thus argued that this inequality inherent in this type of relationship needs to be labeled and critiqued.'

Yikes! These ideas are far from the reality of a relationship between AW and RW.. I detect the notion that if one of the partners has more money than the other, there is a condition of 'inequality', which seems to have a severely negative connotation. Does it? It also implies that when two people come together for marriage, there should be a condition of 'equality', pre-exisiting when the couple first meets. These are scary ideas for me. All forms of 'inequality' should be critiqued? Let's look closely at that baseline asumption. What is meant by 'inequality'? Does it refer to a comparison between each individual's net worth and material assets? How does 'happiness' fit in study? There are so many components besides 'equality'. You can quantify something like cash in the bank, but a more productive challenge would be to quantify cultural components that have little to do with economic status. Just look around you. Individuals are motivated by a vast variety of goals and ambitions. You have individuals who become doctors in the US for the money, and other individuals who have a more altruistic mindset. So please frame the study in a way that allows for the variety and richness of the phenomenon.  ...I would choose a wife, in part, because of the inequality of our personalities, not because of the sameness. Is that kind of 'inequality' a bad thing? It is, after all, an 'inequality'?

PS I am NOT saying that there are no rich western men who have taken advantage of a poor RW, who was desperate to escape her horrible life. But this is a relative rarity. Your study should expose that truth.

[Photo Guy]

The term for Transnational Dating is really not important. Dispensing with the term, MOB, is. Nobody who knows anything would use 'Mail Order Bride' in a serious way. We all consider it a joke - a goofy reference from the past.

Why would you consider the label important?

About website dating agencies-  They are just 'storefronts' for businesses. Some agencies are more helpful than others. Some use ethical business practices, others do not. Our 'Ten Commandments' states:
'Work to eliminate any agency from your communications.'  Why? Because agencies often to control communications between the two parties, in a way that makes communicating very expensive and and can impede true accurate communications. For example, I worked with a large agency that wanted me to use there 'phone introduction service'. This involved setting up an appointment for calling the woman I wanted to talk to. I did this once. It involved an interpreter in Moscow, me in the US, and my gal in Ukraine. It was about a 15 minute call and cost me about $50.  Later that year I switched to phoning her myself with my own interpreter on the line- a three way call. The 'terp was also in the US. This cost me about $12 for 15 minutes. Tha's just one example of why a guy should elminate an agency in his communications. Later, my gal notified me about the agency 'embellishing' her translated letters to me. - a second major reason for not using the agency's translation service.

'Work to eliminate any agency from your communications.' does not mean 'Do not use agencies'. Agencies (especially good ones) are very helpful for finding an appropriate partner. Bad agencies are known to have a higher percentage of scammers. And yes, men can be scammers too- those who meet RW and play the role of 'sex tourist', and who are deceptive about their motives (marriage).

jb, right on target:
 ' .....Russian women are not compelled, no one is holding a gun to their heads, to seek a husband outside the FSU, Russian men have been doing an OK job at that chore for centuries.  If you don't know it, I should direct you so called scholarly studies to the post WWII era, when about a million American GI's brought home German and Japanese war brides.  Did any of your scholarly colleagues put those courtships and marriages under scrutiny?  Certainly the economics and geopolitical conditions existed in greater amounts there, than now.  I suspect not, because it was pre-feminist.'

[Bruno]

In match.com and yahoo personals, women have as many opportunities as men to choose and to pursue. They get to see your profiles. However, for international dating, it is not necessarily the case.

Don't compare match.com and Yahoo personals with marriage agency... a marriage agency with US ladies have a catalogue like a marriage agency with Russian ladies...

A good site for compare is www.freepersonals.ru ... more of 24000 russian women... but it is impossible for a man to reply a lady without fill a advert for himself... so, you have a catalogue with more that 14000 western men... RW have the choice too in personals site !!!

And a old proverb say : "Men propose, women dispose"

[Bruce]

"Scholars who have studied this topic have provided the following critiques."

"The scholars would argue that this constitutes the unequal relationship between Western men and Third World/FSU women."

"The problem is that scholars haven't really differentiated the differences between early and later stages."

"I think the other point that has been pointed out by scholars is the way these websites are constructed."

Ada it is time you wake up, smell the coffee and admit the truth.  "Scholars" = women with an agenda, and this agenda is not at all favorable to anything a man might initiate, to put it lightly. 

The only way you will ever really become a true scholar is to start thinking for yourself.  Look at the literature you are reading and admit that almost every bit of information is completely biased.  In effect you are reading pure propaganda from those who have infiltrated our society with an obvious agenda.  My analogy for you is that you are studying the nazi movement but only reading a "scholar" called Goebels.  Think about it. 

[KenC]

Photodude,
I have been very impressed with your recent posts. 
KenC

[smsmsmsm]

Hi Jooky, Photo Guy, Bruno and Bruce,

Thank you very much for your thoughtful and insightful comments. Very helpful. This is productive communication. Just want I need it.

Merry Christmas!

Ada

[Photo Guy]

Ada,
Please read Jooky's posts a few more times, because I think he speaks for all of us -and is very articulate.

Correction: I wrote:
'Yikes! These ideas are far from the reality of a relationship between AW and RW..'

I meant AM/(or western) and RW. I apologize. I was probably thinking about lesbians again...

I think it would be really helpful for you to meet with some couples who have been married, here in the West.
If you want to learn about agencies and more about the Russian mindset, you should travel to Kiev and visit the agencies. A visa is not required in Ukraine. Meet with women there. Meet with interpreters who work with the agencies. Look at their culture. Notice the many couples kissing on park benches at night. See how educated the general populated is. Presently, a woman I am interested in, speaks four languages. She is a total brainiac - studies International Law.  ...An oppressed victim?  LOL.

I'll get back to answering your survey tonight.  -doug

[Jooky]

The more I read I see that this study is not about international dating at all. It is about 'unequal' dating.

The condemnation of 'unequal' relationships disturbs me.

Ada, how would you define an unequal relationship? Solely in terms of wealth or income? Class? Background? Intelligence? Education? Power? Physical appearance? Race?

Studies that categorize unequal relationships reek of segregation and caste systems. Should the rich not breed with the poor? The educated with the uneducated? The beautiful with the ugly? The black with the white? Where do you draw the line?

[Turboguy]

In the case of FSU, it is the geopolitical and economic conditions that compel Russian women to seek foreign husbands. The scholars would argue that this constitutes the unequal relationship between Western men and Third World/FSU women. It is thus argued that this inequality inherent in this type of relationship needs to be labeled and critiqued. 
Ada           

I sometimes wonder how much of the motivation is really economic which is often sited as a major motivation and if the geopolitical situation is not actually more of a factor than we think.  Look at jb for example.  Economic reasons had no impact in his wife's situtation.  I can look at VWRW for one.  She has a good job, a good income and nice flat.  I think she sees the Russian government as repressive.   I think for her the geopolitical situation is far more important than the pure economics of her life.

[smsmsmsm]

Hi Jooky,

I think I have been misunderstood. My last posting was simply my articulating about other scholars' arguments and perspectives. I was thinking out loud what they might say in response to what I have found so far or what my final text would be. I don't subscribe to those views and what I have found so far is often contradictary to their arguments. I played devil's advocate to myself.

As I have said many times, I don't agree with the dichotomous paradigm of categorizing Western men as oppressors and FSU women as victims. As many people have shared with me, they are exploring different venues and seeking life partners that might not be available locally. They are interested in foreign culturers and traditions. They are attracted to the culture and beauty of the women in different countries. Contrary to the general arguments, they are not seeking women who are submissive so they can control or dominate. The board discussions and interviews with people have educated me a lot. Similarly, I don't believe that Third World/FSU women are victims either. As participants have pointed out, many FSU are highly educated and middle class background. They have agency and choices. They make their own decisions. They are very strong in terms of their determination to make a life of their own.  

There are always going to be inequality in all aspects. However, power relationship is far more complex and subtle than the dichotomous paradigm of oppressors and victims. Yet that is not what I am dealing with in my study. I am interested in knowing why people are involved in cross-border courtships and marriages and what their experiences are like. As I said before, I don't need to conduct interviews to theorize this particular process, as many scholars have done. I conduct interviews because I want to know the complexity of human stories and avoid generalization. Depicting cross border courtships and marriages in a brush is what I see as problematic. I am not going to do the same.

I hope I have clarified my positions. If not, let me know.

And Photo Guy, yes, I do plan to talk to FSU women about their views, motivations, desires, and experiences. If possible, I would like to travel there as well.

Ada

      

[jb]

I don't believe that Third World/FSU women are victims either

I hope you have not demoted Russia and it's former satellites to third world status.  You speak of the geopolitical, yet you use out moded terms such as "third world".

For your general fund of knowledge:
http://www.nationsonline.org/oneworld/third_world_countries.htm

[Kuna]

Ada,
Please read Jooky's posts a few more times, because I think he speaks for all of us -and is very articulate.

PG,  thanks but Jooky doesn't speak for me.  You may surrender your voice but I'll maintain mine for when I feel things need clarification.

May I give an example?  I agree with most of what jooky says because it's good solid common sense, but I read a post earlier in this thread where he commented on his uneasiness about reading of a "process".  He feels it's distasteful or something to see the journey/adventure/fantasy referred to as a Process.

Sorry, I see it as a process... I see almost everything in life as a process.  Today I have a "process map" clearly visible in my mind because it helps me get everything done that needs to be done.  

I also use a Mind Mapping tool and Cause/Effect diagrams in many parts of my personal life.  I do it because I'm extremely extroverted, and at times that makes me too optimistic.  Bringing logic into a process gives substance to my "always can do" attitude.

Kuna

[Turboguy]

I see it as a process too.  It may involve more than one process at a time but it is a process.  Most things in life are a process.  Eating and sleeping are processes.  When you sleep, you get in bed, put your head on the pillow and fall asleep.  Try falling asleep before you get in bed and it won't work well, hopefully you are not standing.

I think we all develop our own processes that we follow.  It may involve writing, or agencies but we follow steps that we hope will lead to a successful conclusion.

[Jooky]

I understand. I criticize the arguments of other scholars as you present them, not so much your own research.

Your own research, however, is not about international or cross-border dating in general. It's about a specific case of international relationships that has been criticized as being unequal or imbalanced in favor of oppressive men. I believe you were drawn to this case because you come from a background where you feel that men were oppressors. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Kuna, you are seeking a bride in a systematic way and that's fine. I disagree that there is a set 'process' of finding a bride in Russia. There are foolish things a man can do, but there is no right way or certain steps to find happiness.

Turbo, you are the perfect example of what I'm saying. As for 'the process' you've been harrassed for doing everything wrong, but you seem to have found happiness.

I've fallen asleep standing before.

[Kuna]

What most bothers me about these boards is the talk about the 'process'. The legal paperwork of a K visa is a process. There is no freaking 'process' of finding a Russian wife. People are just using different methods of introduction and realizing that with modern travel and communication you are not limited to seeking a mate in your own backyard.

Kuna, you are seeking a bride in a systematic way and that's fine. I disagree that there is a set 'process' of finding a bride in Russia. There are foolish things a man can do, but there is no right way or certain steps to find happiness.

Jooky,

I think you mean you disagree that there is a "perfect process" of finding a bride in Russia???  If this is the case, we agree.  I don't think there is a perfect process either, but we'd all agree that some processes might provide less risk or a higher probability of success.

There's no doubt that asking questions and listening to the experienced men in here has altered my personal process since starting.  jb and gator are two that have offered excellent advice even though both are in very different situations and have had very different experiences. By listening to those with more experience HOPEFULLY we'll avoid doing foolish things.

Cheers,

Kuna

[dwfunk]

I sometimes wonder how much of the motivation is really economic which is often sited as a major motivation and if the geopolitical situation is not actually more of a factor than we think.  Look at jb for example.  Economic reasons had no impact in his wife's situtation.  I can look at VWRW for one.  She has a good job, a good income and nice flat.  I think she sees the Russian government as repressive.   I think for her the geopolitical situation is far more important than the pure economics of her life.

Hello?  Hello?  McFly?  Hello?  Is anybody home??

Hey, maybe, just maybe, they might want a quality husband. One who exhibits qualities they find very rare in the available men in their area!  Wow!  Hard to imagine some of us as "quality!" 

All this speculative crap about economics and geopolitics.   

I know a lady, owns 2 flats, a garage and a car, and lives in Moscow.  One flat is now worth over $200K!! She brings home 57,000 rubles a month! She travels internationally for her one month vacation time every year. She thinks Bush is an idiot and Putin is ok. She has no intention of giving up her Russian Citizenship.

However, she will leave Russia and live in the country of her husband.  I don't see any economic or political "stuff" there. Just a simple desire to have a COMPLETE quality family.



----------
David & Natalia
Republic of Texas/Moscow , Russia
УЛ. КОНЕНКОВА
16th World Spacemodeling Championships

[dwfunk]

Ada,
Please read Jooky's posts a few more times, because I think he speaks for all of us -and is very articulate.

Neither you nor Jooky speaks for me.  Don't be so presumptuous.



----------
David & Natalia
Republic of Texas/Moscow , Russia
УЛ. КОНЕНКОВА
16th World Spacemodeling Championships

[jb]

Thank you dwfunk,

I think:

However, she will leave Russia and live in the country of her husband.  I don't see any economic or political "stuff" there. Just a simple desire to have a COMPLETE quality family.

sums it up very nicely.

[Photo Guy]

dwfunk,

I'm curious- looking at Jooky's comments, what do you disagree with?
Feel free to share your ideas. ...That's what the forum's for.

jb,
I think it's absurd to say that RW are not interested in attaining a higher standard of living
or a life in a more stable political climate,,, in addition to a loving husband.

[jb]

jb,
I think it's absurd to say that RW are not interested in attaining a higher standard of living
or a life in a more stable political climate,,,

Did I ever say they weren't?  I think I said prolly 90% of the girls listed on agencies were there because they were hoping to trade up in life.  I spoke concretely only about my wife, she did not need to marry abroad to improve her lifestyle.  She was doing just fine before I came into her life, and I'm sure she'd have survived nicely had I not.

What I do find absurd is men who say they want a better quality woman in their life, and then travel 6,000+ miles to fall in love with a shop girl who speaks not 10 words of English and is not worldly enough to successfully make the move to a new and better life.   Does that ring any bells?

PhotoGuy, trust me, I'm not picking on you here.  As a matter of fact, I'd love to be able to buy you a beer someday and congratulate you on a happy 5th anniversary.  Neither KenC, Leslie, or me, are your enemy, we are prolly your best friends in this endeavor.  We worried that you were about to shoot yourself in the foot when you went head over heels the last time around,,, and we were right.  You were a smart man making dumb choices.   I'd really hope things go better for you in the future.   We are here for you if you will just listen.

[Photo Guy]

I don't think you're picking on me, jb. It's Christmas eve.
Yeah, things went south with Larisa, because I acted too quickly,
too impulsively. There were a number of problems that arose and
I would have detected them, had I taken my time and spent more
time with her on her turf. However, it had nothing to do with the 'shopgirl' thing.
Let me be clear about that. And there are factors for success and failure that
come into play that cannot be managed before marriage or the K-1 period.
Guys, your gal may get severely homesick. She may hate her new country.
Her pappa could flip out. Any number of things...  The 'shopgirl' critique is weak,
in my opinion.   ...Now if you want to say things would've been easier had she
spoken fluent English, that's a fair criticism.

...Hey, back top wrapping presents! Good cheer!