Jim the Agency scammer

[BC]

Where's the beef?

Taking a peek at Kvinna's site, it seems most of the women are complaining that:

1. Their personal information is being passed on to other sites/agencies without their knowledge or permission.

2. That althogh the men know something about the women they meet/correspond with from their profiles, nothing is known about the men they meet.  paraphrased:  I have to give my C.V. but all that is known about the men is their credit card number...."

just fwiw.

[Leslie]

Idealism is a fine thing but we don't live in an ideal world.

 

Andrew it is great to see you posting here again.  If we were in a moral philosophy tutorial I would agree with all the arguments you make.  I think men and women SHOULD be treated equally by agencies.  Of course if you use a dating agency in UK or USA to meet local women (I have done both) you will find this is the case.  Men and women are BOTH paying customers so this is commercial common sense. With FSU agencies the paying customer is almost always male.  So guess what? The agencies cater primarily for the men's needs.  That's reality.  

 Will the MOB agencies introduce fairer business practices?  NO.  When the economic situation in these countries improves so that women are in a position to be PAYING customers, then the MOB business simply dies out.  For example - what has happened in Czech.  10 years ago Prague was the top MOB destination.  Today it is not. MOB is over.  You must be observing the same thing in Tallin.  The women there don't need MOB agencies to live and work in the west. All they need is bus fare!!


MOB Agency myths
 

Rob and JB whilst I agree with the sentiments you express, in practical terms NO agency can make the guarantees you favour.  It is impossible.  A woman is free to join any agency she wishes.  The idea that a woman is "owned" by an agency is both illegal and a fallacy.  I have had several quite heated discussions on this.  Notably with Ron Woody (the former owner of LTP) He was always complaining that a competitor agency had "stolen" his agencies women.  Of course an agency cannot own a woman (that notion is utterly vile) but they can claim copyright on her photos….

Most women register with several agencies.  This is not an indication that the woman is a tramp but that she wants to improve her chances.  Perfectly reasonable most guys also use several agencies.

So lets consider an example.  Olga is registered with agency "A" She meets an American via that agency and she accepts his offer of "engagement" and he files for a fiancé visa.  If agency "A" is reputable then they should not introduce other guys to Olga.  I agree with this.  

However Olga is also registered with other agencies and maybe continues to date other foreign guys.  Or more likely is still dating her Russian boyfriend.  

Agency "A" is probably unaware of this situation.  There can be no guarantees.  This is one of the myths of the MOB agencies.
 
JB Remember Squirecam (Charles).  His fiancé (who he met through Kherson Girls) dated other guys and the relationship failed.  Kevin is not to blame for that.  I think it is positively weird to blame an agency for the behaviour of a woman.  How the hell is that possible?  

Private Investigations
 
The next question is how far should an agency go in checking out a woman?


Practically this will depend on how much the guy is prepared to pay for.

All the so called "moral" arguments about invasion of the woman's privacy are bullsh*t.  


I had a girl friend in Kherson who deceived me.  When I came to my senses and realized what was happening.  I had her checked out.  The confrontation phone call was interesting.  She maintained she was true to me.  Indeed she actually demanded we go to ZAGS (Ukraine Marriage office) on my next trip.  I told her to check out the photos I had just e-mailed her….  She was living with her Ukrainian boyfriend on my dollar. I never posted her details as a scammer.  To this day I blame my own stupidity.  Sure she exploited me but I allowed it to happen.  I learned from my mistakes and moved on.  Amazing thing was that on that next trip I first met Natasha who is now my heavily pregnant, grumpy, adorable wife!

Blacklists and Scam Reports
 
I know you can justify the existence of these sites on the grounds that they are "in the public interest" but the vast majority of scams are down to "Fat Yuri"  There is no real woman involved.  Try telling that to a newcomer though!  

Once a woman's name and photo are posted on a scam site she is damned as a scammer.  She has no practical recourse. Even photos of famous Russian models are posted as scammers! International civil legal proceedings are completely beyond the means of FSU woman.  

Is this fair??
 
When Dan reorganized this board I asked him not to include a scams section. The main reason for this is that most of the guys who post detailed scam reports about individual women are "fruit cases" who should be on medication. 

Many of the worst cases I remember were British.   

JB - Remember "Abb*wood" whose signature was "Who you gonna call -Scambusters!"  He filed dozens and dozens of scam reports and the only FSU woman he ever met turned out to be working as a prostitute in Istanbul.  Absolute Lunatic.

Andrew - Remember "UK*RITMAN"  that pathetic oaf who was jilted by a woman young enough to be his daughter.  He was on a vendetta.  Head surgically implanted in his arse and so full of hate his psychotherapy needed to be mandated by a court.

Finally there is a guy I won't name.  He truly was a stalker.  His activities were eventually stopped by the police….

 

[jb]

Leslie,

I couldn't agree more about the inability of the MOB industry enforcing the rules of fair play.  But that's exactly what I've been talking about, there are rules to the game, successful marriages are built on "the rules", like it or not.  If everyone abided by the rules there'd be a few less broken hearts to go around.

FSU women who do not take seriously the notion of "engagement" as an exclusive commitment are not going to stop dating as long as they can hope for the BBD to come along while the b/f is back in the States.  Trust me, it ain't my idea.  But all to many of the "one week wonders" visit 7 days, propose on day 6, and who in their right mind believes that's real?  Most of these girls believe they've just entertained a sex tourist for a week and really don't take anything too seriously.  He'll have to come back a second and a third time before she places a lot of faith in his words.  The avoidance trick is not to take it too serious yourself during that one trip.

However, I still maintain that an agency should place itself somewhere on the high ground here.  If that fails, all is lost.  They merely become a pimp.

[Kvinna]

However, I still maintain that an agency should place itself somewhere on the high ground here. If that fails, all is lost. They merely become a pimp.

 

Bravo

[andrewfi]

Gents ~ I think that some of you have misunderstood what I was writing and also what Kevin is doing.

Have these girls been prosecuted and found guilty of a crime by the appropriate authorities: http://www.khersongirls.com/blacklist/blacklist.htm ?

From what is written on the site, it would seem not.

I am very happy that he has scaled back his 'blacklist'.

I am emphatically not claiming that Kevin is evil, bad or even more than ordinarily dishonest. I am sure he is an overall decent bloke, but his words here and on his website instruct us as to his attitudes. If I were seeking a woman through an agency, in Kherson, then I am sure I might consider his agency. But, he is the best of a bad lot. I can understand the criticisms of his business levelled by Kvinna, they are shared by almost all other businesses in the field.

Those who say that it is Kevin's right to do as he pleases are, within legal constraints, correct. But do we not in our dealings with businesses expect somewhat more of those businesses than bare minima? From the perspective of the men, there is little problem, it is obvious where Kevin sees his priorities lying.

I did not write to criticise Kevin, per se, but in support of what Kvinna wrote. Perhaps if the moral high ground were not so obviously claimed by Kevin then the contrast between the two interconnected sides of his business would not be so distinct. As Kvinna noted, the criticisms laid against Kevin's agency are the same as those applying to most other MOB sites. It is quite easy for Kevin to make his business truly exemplary, the main change is simply one of attitude shift, if he acknowledged his female clients as such and being of equal importance to his business to the men then almost everything else would follow, because the changes would be blindingly obvious, they would also address Kvinna's criticisms.

[BC]

Andrew,

Reading the complaints about Julia available at the link you posted I think the men involved were criminally stupid.

[Kevin]

So many statements, If I miss something let me know.

Andrews. Yes, Every lady at ttp://www.khersongirls.com/blacklist/blacklist.htm ? Has been a criminal record in Kherson and a complaint filed at US consult in Kiev.  Last year I stop posting the names on the scammers in kherson and professional daters because and just started to post the ladies who were investigated by the local police.

BC, Yes, the men involved with Julia did deserve some of blame. But Julia was making her living doing this type of scam and continue to be listed on many site in Kherson today. She was also engaged to multi-men at the same time, (over 60 is her target group) She was 17 when she got engaged to her first victim.


"Shoud a engagement lady/Men still be active in my agency or any agency"  No, Once a lady becomes engaged in my agency she is no longer allowed to send letter to other clients except to tell them she is no longer available. Her status on my site is changed to Enagaged.  And other agencies in kherson are notified.  The same goes for the Men, they are no longer allowed to cordispond to other ladies. This is the purpose of our engagement page so men seeking a wife in kherson and quickly check our site and be sure there lady is "double dipping".   Has there been a history of this before, YES, :? Unfortionally this is a common problem and I have removed quite a few ladies from my site when I found them engaged on another web site. In fact I have a list of ladies who do this as professional daters whereas they will get engaged to many men, accept cash and gifts and call of the engagement when it comes time for her too leave. This is a serious problem and I will not tolerate it in my agency for both Men or Women. (Note: there is also a cultural difference between East/West when it comes to engagements and marriage.)


Blacklist site: Should only be used as a reference tool. If you lady shows up on one of these sites, take it as a warning and contact all parties involved.

K1 = 90 day trial period. Yes, It saved my butt a few years back when my lady arrived pregnant from her Russian boyfriend that she was dating during our engagement.  Both parties understand this. The men use it too get to know the ladies and the ladies use it to get to know our country. I would prefer a 6 month time frame because the 90 day window is too small..

Kevin

 

 

 

 

[BC]

Kevin,

Just being curious.. What information do you require from a male client and how much does a woman you represent know about the man they are scheduled to meet?

You've probably developed a good 'sixth sense' over time as to what the men and women you represent are looking for..

I would think you know a lot more about the women than the men during the writing stage, but when the man does finally visit you probably have a pretty good idea of the type of person he is. When this man insists on meeting a particular woman and the hair raises on the back of your neck, what do you do?

But then again, I believe you aren't in Ukraine all year round so I guess a good bit of client review work is delegated?

Edit: Oh by the way, I am very against the 90 day 'trial period'. Tough as it is, I think Canada's K3 only policy is a good idea.

[Kevin]

BC

The Majority of our ladies and Men have cordisponded prior to meeting and each have read the others profiles. We also try to get the men to video chat with the ladies.   It all depends on the Men or Ladies how much they know about each other prior to meeting.

Over time we get to know our ladies quite well and most of our clients I have spoken to on the phone prior to them coming to Kherson.

There is no requirement prior too meeting other then a safety requirement that they meet first in the office, then if the lady feels safe they can go anywhere they wish.   We also get a video tape of the men in the office just in case something ever goes wrong. But in the last 5 years we haven't had any problems with our meetings.

[BC]

There is no requirement prior too meeting other then a safety requirement that they meet first in the office, then if the lady feels safe they can go anywhere they wish.   We also get a video tape of the men in the office just in case something ever goes wrong. But in the last 5 years we haven't had any problems with our meetings.

Now that's something you are doing that maybe others aren't.  Sounds quite reasonable and good.  Did you make Kvinna aware of this?

[Kvinna]

Did you make Kvinna aware of this?

 

BC we run the thread on antidate about marriage agencies and sites with russian brides... as I know my opinion here is not appreciated, so I ask our girls to answer two questions: what they do like and don't in their services. (and of course they can now see this list)

Tomorrow I'm going to send our offer to take part in this thread to members of subscription (it is 3118 members now) and we will see what they will say (of course I don't hope they all will take part in this action). If you interested in their opinion you can wacth this thread

[BC]

Kvinna,

Yes.. 3118 RW's would be kind of tough to handle but I think everyone here would be interested to see views from the  'other side' of the business.

[Kvinna]

Kvinna,

Yes.. 3118 RW's would be kind of tough to handle but I think everyone here would be interested to see views from the 'other side' of the business.

 

This was posted by Fiorella on another board

Some people here just guessed we know nothing about situation with marriage agencies offering "Russian brides". Before we started to make this list we did talk to many Russian and Ukrainian owners of marriage agencies. Now we have clearer picture of this industry. It is not so bright for you, guys as it was even 3 years ago. Now there aren't lines of girls willing to marry a foreigner anymore. Did you ever thought why you offer so many free of charge services to women? Even 3 years ago many Russian women paid to agencies for the possibility to meet western men and contact them. More like otherwise, nowadays day by day it goes more difficult to find women willing to join these agencies. Local agents even go to deep villages to find and convince women to register. So, when you hear that thousand Russian women are anxious to meet you, it is not true. Even on dating sites with Russian women now you can find more men then women online every moment. So, if they would work the way they work now, they will loose last active members and all new men will have are fictitious photos from archive and letters written by staff of these agencies.

That is the official of antidate's point of view

[BC]

Kvinna,

With my post before, I was not saying that women you know should not post here, just that it would probably be quite overwhelming if all 3118 posted

What Fiorella posted elsewhere is interesting, but it would be refreshing to have some first-hand personal stories.  As you probably noted when a man comes here and reports a 'scam?' most of the members took a objective view and found out what the 'bottom line' was.. that there was little or no scam involved.  I think members here would be quite objective with stories from women as well.

My guess is that a few men here share Fiorella's view that the RW marriage industry has some rough times ahead, but let's stick to the topic and hear some of their agency horror stories first hand!

[Kvinna]

What Fiorella posted elsewhere is interesting, but it would be refreshing to have some first-hand personal stories. As you probably noted when a man comes here and reports a 'scam?' most of the members took a objective view and found out what the 'bottom line' was.. that there was little or no scam involved. I think members here would be quite objective with stories from women as well.

 this thread is not on this board, it is on antidate

Well as I told already any member of RWD is welcome to read antidate forum. There is a lot of personal stories. As you can understand I am not so good in english to translate this correct

as I understood admin of this board is not welcome the copy/past posts

also we said to our members that if they wish they could to say their point of view here. But sorry to say obviously they have not wanted to take part on this board after they found out how most of members on this board treat russian women who have another opinion with them

[Kevin]

[user=184]Kvinna[/user]

I have been reading your site daily. What I  am seeing is comments about un-named agencies, making money on scams and how to find a men on the Internet that will give you the biggest gifts and a few stories about how "unnamed" agency took advantage of there ladies. What I am not reading is names of the agencies, proof to support any claims or any real names.  Everyone on your list seem to be afraid to mention any names.

If you ladies feel that an agency is corrupt  or an agency is doing something they shouldn't the ladies need to post the name of the agency, owner and documents to support there claims.  The men have no problem doing this.

I couldn't find a single story that promotes a honest marriage,  relationship or finding a good partner.   Can you provide me a link to one just in case I missed it.

I do enjoy reading the post though. The impression these ladies have of America is something taken from the TV shows they are watching.  I am surprise how many ladies judge a country they never been too.

Anyway I can see some good in your site. You just need some poster that are living the life that these ladies are dreaming off.  I've ask my wife to start posting some to show that not all Men and agencies are bad.

Kevin

[Kvinna]

[user=184]Kvinna[/user]

I have been reading your site daily. What I  am seeing is comments about un-named agencies, making money on scams and how to find a men on the Internet that will give you the biggest gifts
Kevin

 

 And now can you provide me a link to one just in case I missed it.

[Kevin]

Did anyone else get this private msg today?   This is from one of our members. The last time I look at my profile there is a picture of me and my wife and it doesn't even include anything for her too read to become interested in me.

These types of scam is what give the RW with internet access a bad reputation.

" My name is isabela upeh,i saw your profile today and became intrested in you,i will also like to know you the more,and i want you to send an email to my email address so i can give you my picture for you to know whom i am.
Here is my email address(isabela2upeh@yahoo.com)
I believe we can move from here!
I am waiting for your mail to my email address above.
isabela.
(Remeber the distance or colour does not matter but love matters alot in life) "

[Kevin]

[user=184]Kvinna[/user]

I have been reading your site daily. What I  am seeing is comments about un-named agencies, making money on scams and how to find a men on the Internet that will give you the biggest gifts
Kevin

 

 And now can you provide me a link to one just in case I missed it.
[/quote]
 

This is the topic line that I like the best. Since it mentionS my agency and kherson.  I love the false statement about my agency on it..

http://www.antidate.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=477

 

[TheArrow]

Did anyone else get this private msg today?   This is from one of our members. The last time I look at my profile there is a picture of me and my wife and it doesn't even include anything for her too read to become interested in me.

These types of scam is what give the RW with internet access a bad reputation.

" My name is isabela upeh,i saw your profile today and became intrested in you,i will also like to know you the more,and i want you to send an email to my email address so i can give you my picture for you to know whom i am.
Here is my email address(isabela2upeh@yahoo.com)
I believe we can move from here!
I am waiting for your mail to my email address above.
isabela.
(Remeber the distance or colour does not matter but love matters alot in life) "

http://russianwomendiscussion.com/view_topic.php?id=464&forum_id=11 (the topic about this message, by the way). Most of members got it here, lol.

Read PhotoGuy's post attentively, please. The girl isabela2upeh@yahoo.com is not Russian. She is from Africa.

[Kvinna]

This is the topic line that I like the best. Since it mentionS my agency and kherson.  I love the false statement about my agency on it..

http://www.antidate.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=477

 

 

Yes, I have found there a story about one agency in Kherson which recruit girls and re-sell them to http://www.thedatingame.com/ And this the date game was accused as a "dating" agency which involves young slavonic ladies in prostitution. Its service looks like the part of human trafficking

as you can read, there have not called the name of Kherson agency... so how did you come this is about your service? Do you deal with thedatinggame?

[Kevin]

[user=184]Kvinna[/user]

We don't sell our profiles or provide them to any agency outside of our network. 

If your poster would tell me the name of the agency involved instead of just saying Kherson agency it would give the owner a chance to either defend themselves or a source for the ladies to understand what type of agency does this.

 

[Kvinna]

[user=184]Kvinna[/user]

We don't sell our profiles or provide them to any agency outside of our network. 

If your poster would tell me the name of the agency involved instead of just saying Kherson agency it would give the owner a chance to either defend themselves or a source for the ladies to understand what type of agency does this.

 

 

Dear, Kevin! May I say you one thoughtful thing, only you don't take offence

Antidate as you probable know is a forum when everybody can take part and say his opinion. And I told here a lot of times, you are welcome to say yours

By the way we have several owners of agencies (including from Kherson as well) who decided to take part on antidate. And none of them were bitten by russian women. So don't be like a kid, if you wish to ask someone about name of agency, go and ask, at least your wife can help you with russian language. If you have no question to the poster of this story so why do you ask me? BTW one of the owners of Kherson agencies takes part in this discussion

[Kevin]

[user=184]Kvinna[/user]

"" Which agency owner takes part in your site?  ""

When I post I will use real names, menton agencies by names and provide documentation to support any statement.

If you would be so kind and doing the same it would make your statements a little more interesting.  I would like to know what kherson agency is supporting your site?

Thanks

Kevin

[BC]

Kevin,

Why not join the 'fun' over on Kvinnas' site?

You seem like a stand up guy with good agency services so 'take the bull by the horns'!

Sure will take some time and effort initially but you might even be able to attract some new women clients as well as answering some of your questions first hand.