How necessary English?

[I/O]

 PG is one RW away from success

T/G It's a big call to suggest, based on perception only that anyone is one or none or many away from success. I think I would be inclind to wait a while until there is some evidence before making that assumption about anyone.

Back to the language thing.  Mine and I have gotten as far as we have because we have put in a lot of dammed hard work and so far as I can see, it is only going to get harder for the next year or two or maybe more.  That doesn't take any of the romance or joy away from it, but it must be faced, that it is dammed hard work and very often we have both found that our perceptions of each others thoughts have been dead wrong and we have needed to back track and start again in some areas. 

Bluntly, having gotten this far with her now improving, but in the early stages limited, language, I would never under any circumstances recommend this path.  It is hard and there is no room for hope.  Relationships of this nature survive on facts and scope, not hope and flippant opinion. 

If you have a choice, find someone you can verbally communicate with and then accept your obligation to ensure she can learn as much language as is possible before she arrives in your country.  Like it or not she will need it.  This is not being selfish for those who think that way, in fact it is being the opposite.  If you want her to be all that she can be, you are duty bound to help and expect her to learn the language of the country in which she will live.  This starts at the start. 


I/O

[groovlstk]

I've seen this same exact argument through many similar long threads with nearly identical points of view several times during my two years at RWD.

Wouldn't it be useful to condense all the pros and cons into a FAQ and let new guys decide for themselves what route makes most sense for them?

[Michelangelo]

Cons?  The only one I see is that you limit the field somewhat if you only meet girls with some English.

But the positives of being about to TALK to the girl in depth BEFORE doing a K-1 far outway the one con. 

So I think the FAQ would definitely lean toward dating girls with at least some English.

But we both know that a pretty face in a profile will lead newbies to meet these girls who speak no English.  But once they meet someone that can talk to, they will quickly move to her.

[Bruno]

You get to know your girl through hours and hours of talk.  And you gotta have a common language to talk.

Allow me to be the devil advocat these time...

Yes, common language help but not always like several think...

I hope that everybody here have date local women who speak how language... some of them have lie to you... they have build story and you have believe them... they are professional who master language...

Now, a perfect speaking english RW can make lies to you... some can detect lie because of the body language... but mainly, her lie will be more credible... A RW who have only some base of english will know more difficulty to lies since she don't master the language...

So, let say that master, speaking a little or no base of english have both advantages and problems... yes, language help... for the good OR for the bad...

Michael, remember the other topic that you have start... one of my problem with the previous wife was not language between us... but in the family in case of crisis... when my ex-wife was fighting with her own daughter, it was in Russian... when i have wish know what happen, she have reply that it was not my problem... and i was not able to understand something say between them...

Since my future wife will be Ukrainian, i wish learn these language... simply for be a part of the familly in case of crisis between my wife and the future children... several here think that because the women come to USA, she need learn english... of course, they are right... but yourself need to learn Russian or Ukrainian... wait the first fight ( it happen in all couple )... under the strong emotion, she will use her native language and you will have difficult to understand the problem and resolve it...

International relation ask a lot of work on both side... it is not because she come to your country that you can think that she need make all the work... Same if she don't know english, a motivated woman will learn it for please his man and for herself... but in critical moment, the mother language of the woman will be back...

I don't know the situation for the old timer here, like JB or KenC... but i think that they have already know some little fight like in every couple... curious to know in what language have happen these "fight" !!! In my case, the ex-wife was speaking Russian !!! Same if she was able to speak some French and in a good way, in Dutch !!!

[Michelangelo]

but yourself need to learn Russian or Ukrainian... wait the first fight ( it happen in all couple )... under the strong emotion, she will use her native language and you will have difficult to understand the problem and resolve it...

You make several good points, Bruno.  And yes, I am learning Russian, and when a child comes Vik will speak to her in Russian so she will have two languages.  Even now, I am using RosettaStone and an IPod program to study Russian, and we are listening to lots of Russian music in the house.

But I'm glad Vik speaks excellent English, and we don't have to use an electronic translator and dictionary to try to communicate.  Some do succeed going the route of doing a K-1 with a girl they really do not know very well, but as Scott stated upstream, it's much better if the girl speaks English (as you are getting to know her and decide about marriage).

[Gator]

Michelangelo wrote,

Perception you say?  It's worth about 5%, then the hard work begins-- through conversation.

Am I misinterpreting your statement?  Must disagree.  The emotional commitment necessary to decide to marry is not assessed with words.  It is something that is felt in the heart, seen in actions, and reinforced with words.  This involves mostly perception, not 95% perception but more than 50%.   Words are still essential as part of the “package” to create attraction and to prompt that vital upwelling of loving emotions (through humor, intellectual stimulation, and verbal expressions of caring, kindness, respect...).

We always talk about red flags.  A man recovering from bad RW experience will usually say that the red flags were there, he just chose to ignore them.  I assert that most red flags are not in words.  Yes, perception is vital. 

[Gator]

This is not a “black and white” issue as many of you are portraying.   

The con of her not knowing English?   One key con.  It will take a much longer time to make a prudent decision about marriage.   An additional 6-12 months may be necessary.  And this is to just decide if she is “the one”.

After this work and time, you may learn she is not “the one”, and she also has a vote and may decide you are not her one.   There is no guarantee.   This happens in life between AM and AW all the time.   Why would it differ with RW? 

Even with a common language there is the confusion added by cultural and age differences and the differences as individuals.

[Michelangelo]

Michelangelo wrote,

Am I misinterpreting your statement?  Must disagree.  The emotional commitment necessary to decide to marry is not assessed with words.  It is something that is felt in the heart, seen in actions, and reinforced with words.  This involves mostly perception, not 95% perception but more than 50%.   Words are still essential as part of the “package” to create attraction and to prompt that vital upwelling of loving emotions (through humor, intellectual stimulation, and verbal expressions of caring, kindness, respect...).

We always talk about red flags.  A man recovering from bad RW experience will usually say that the red flags were there, he just chose to ignore them.  I assert that most red flags are not in words.  Yes, perception is vital. 

Yes, I think you misinterpret.  To me, perception is not the same as "chemistry."   I can perceive the girl is good to her parents, that her friends like her, that she has a good work ethic.  I do those things by observing her.

I agree with you about the heart.   

But I think you need it all to be successful; chemistry, your preception of who the girl is, and then lots of dialogue.

All I'm saying it that it is better to date girls who speak some English.  Without a common language, the relationship will be much more difficult.

Bucky~ I agree with your second post....it's not a black and white issue.  But if the girl speaks English, you lose one big negative, or con.

[Photo Guy]

Okay, I'll come back again with a longer list of attributes that can be perceived
WITHOUT language.

No, I am not saying the language aspect should be trashed or ignored.
It certainly does make communication easier. No doubt about that.
It depends on the couple. You may be a guy with tons of patience,
who knows he's found a great gal, and the two of you are willing
to work at your relationship with a spirit of love and commitment.
A good attitude goes a long way.  You both have to realize that
misunderstandings will occur. You must be gracious and forgiving about
those bumps in the road.

I am just saying that a special 'quality' woman can be percieved just by being
in her company and using an interpreter.  And if you realize she actually
might be wife material, you begin the hard work of destroying the language barrier.
If you want an easier task, stay home. If you do not believe you can
know her well, without a common language, then only date women with
good or fluent language abilities. To each his own. It's your life. Do what
you think will work for you. I am just adding the opinion that it is untrue to
say that you cannot know a person at all, until she becomes fluent.

Here in  this country, Speed Dating has become fairly commonplace. But, you
will always have those folks who will say 'How could you possibly know
anything about a woman in 10 minutes of face time?!'  I'll give you the
point that you cannot know someone well enough to propose after
10 minutes of face time, but you can tell if she's someone you want to
know a lot better. If she feels the same way, you get closer, you share
a language and you work hard.

BTW, My situation with Larisa disintegrated because she went home to take care
of her sick old papa, who was recently divorced. And there were other factors too,
that had very little to do with the language barrier.  I'd be lying, if I told
you her going back home to Ukraine had something to do with poor
communication through language, so don't believe that fabrication.

As for your situation, I will not go to the extreme of dredging up your
failed marriages, ...just because I do not like your opinion.

[KenC]

This is not a “black and white” issue as many of you are portraying.   

The con of her not knowing English?   One key con.  It will take a much longer time to make a prudent decision about marriage.   An additional 6-12 months may be necessary.  And this is to just decide if she is “the one”.

After this work and time, you may learn she is not “the one”, and she also has a vote and may decide you are not her one.   There is no guarantee.   This happens in life between AM and AW all the time.   Why would it differ with RW? 

Even with a common language there is the confusion added by cultural and age differences and the differences as individuals.

Gator, 
I feel like one of those guys in the Guinness commercials, Brilliant, simply brilliant. No one is saying that you cannot find a good RW that doesn't speak English and there sure are a much bigger quantity to choose from, but it will take more time to get to the point where you have enough "valid" (not imagined) information in order to enter matrimony.  But that isn't what some are saying here.  Reading between the lines and knowing past histories, some think that you can meet a non English speaking RW for a week, pull a K-1, and proceed into marriage within the 90 day window allowed with no additional risk!  That my friend, is a horse of a whole different color.
KenC

[Michelangelo]

As for your situation, I will not go to the extreme of dredging up your
failed marriages, ...just because I do not like your opinion.

Who are you speaking to, me?  It's not clear...

[Photo Guy]

Not you Michaelangelo.

We are talking about the pros and cons of her speaking fluent English,
and yet KenC is going off topic to attack all elements of the course
I personally followed. It's personal stuff that's off-topic.
It's a personal attack - but maybe others will see that he's not
debating the pros and cons of the necessity of a common language.

[I/O]

As someone pointed out upthread, this is simply a "No Brainer".  Beats me there is really much discussion to be had.  Finding a woman with some or good language skills of your understanding, simply has NO downside.

Believe me guys, I ain't married yet, but to have someone who never cries, fall into your arms, sobbing  in tears of frustration because she can't explain to you what she means, requires more patience than I think many have, in order to sit down and spend two hours with her figuring it out when you were due for a critical meeting within twenty minutes.  That my friends is the reality.

It is all well and good to say it is not so important.  Either those who say this are plain stupid or don't place much importance on giving her every opportunity to express what she wants to.  If guys are going over there to find a toy to tow around on a piece of string, good luck to them, but a partner is far more important to me than that.  I would advise any freshman to avoid some of the difficulties mine and I have been through thus far.  When the going gets tough, guess what, it's going to get tougher at some point. 

Common language doesn't prevent entirely, the possible crashes, but it certainly can reduce the risks.  If ever there was a process which required good "Risk Management", it is surely this one.

I/O

[KenC]

Turbo,
You said:

We all have opinions and perceptions.   You know what they say, "it is a free world and opinions are like ....., we all have one"  I still think we all agree we should be attacking the ideas and not the person.

I tried very hard to not start a flame war here on this topic.  Through out Photo's post he at least alluded to have the wisdom to administer advice on why his "perceptions/opinions" will work when in fact he has never been married and his RW returned home. Those are the facts not my perception or opinion.  I brought this up not to attack Photo as a person in any way, but to question the object authority of his opinion.

I didn't like the dog analogy, but he used it and I went with it.

Michaelangelo,
No, Photo is referring to me.  He cannot begin to understand what it takes to be married to a woman for 21 years as I was in my first marriage.  Did it end in a divorce?  Yes.  Does that make it a failure?  I wouldn't think so when we did raise two wonderful children into adulthood and had many a fine moment during that period of time.  Not to mention the 8 1/2 years and counting in my marriage to Lena.  It is a comical game that Photo plays out here as a victim.  I debate his advice and the validity of his advice, he takes personal pot shots at me, and then claims that I am disrespectful.  Whatever.  I have a wife, everything is wonderful and he is still looking through profiles and dreaming.
KenC

[ScottinCrimea]

Okay, to try to summarize again.  It is easy to know if someone is NOT the right one for you through perception, but communication, not only perception is necessary to learn if someone IS the right one for you.

[Bruno]

He cannot begin to understand what it takes to be married to a woman for 21 years as I was in my first marriage.  Did it end in a divorce?  Yes.  Does that make it a failure?

NO...

My case was a failure... divorce after she have receive her green card... a return home after a misluck K1 is a failure...

Life is long and it happen that people change with time... two perfect partner 20 year ago can become incompatible with time...

I work for a organisation who take care of elder people... sometime, i see couple who love each other after 50 year marriage... but sometime, i see couple who don't speak anymore to the other partner, where love have dissappear and they stay together... why ? Because they think that divorce is something bad... they choose to spend a miserable life together in place of know the "shame" of a divorce...

I think that we have a good example of a "successful" divorce with RW on these forum... some older members remember certainly the Jack story... He have give her freedom to a woman he was in love... they have divorce... not because love was not more existing... simply because Jack was not wishing child and her wife was wishing child... i call this a good divorce, he have not think about "his need" but about what is the best for her...

Now, these example show that communication is very important... in the dating periode, some very complex subject need to be spoken/writen... limited language don't allow it... waiting a K1 or marriage for speak about these subject is too late... interpreter from agency cannot be trusted... but it is always possible to use independant interpreter ( but it will rise a lot the bill for the dating periode since so subject cannot be explain in a few line, several page are needed )...

Language is really something needed... but in a early stage, the use of "tools" can help... for simple letter, use of translator and dictionary... for more complex thing, the use of interpreter... it ask more work ( time ) , more money but it is not impossible... for my first marriage, i was not really ready... but these time, if it was needed, i have 3 russian and one ukrainian men in my village that i can use for help in translation... when i was "busy" with Galina ( a dating misluck story ), it was a Yougoslave friend who was translating his Russian letter... and not only translating but give explanation about the "tone" of his letter... himself have see some read flag that i have ignore like a idiot ( by example, when making translation, he explain to me that a woman in love don't use so russian words who are too much "cold" )...

Let me explain... i think that i have a medium level of English... but sometime, i have very difficult to show what i feel with english words... yes, you can translate words ( sometime with difficulty  ) but what is between the line is generally not see... i think that several of you will be happy with a RW who have my English level for start... but i can assure you that you will miss 50% of the message since the RW will not be able to show her Russian feeling with English words...

It have take me more of 18 year of contact with foreign people to understand very poorly the hidden part of a message... discussion is more that the sum of words... it is why online translator are so bad... they can translate words but not the meaning...

Several here say : take the plane and visit her... Why ? E-mail are only words... communication involve gestures and intonation who are a part of delivery but who cannot be conveyed in written form.

Maybe a article who can be interesting for these topic :
Intercultural competence

Intercultural competence is the ability of successful communication with people of other cultures. This ability can exist in someone at a young age, or may be developed and improved due to willpower and competence. The bases for a successful intercultural communication are emotional competence, together with intercultural sensitivity.

Interculturally competent is a person who captures and understands, in interaction with people from foreign cultures, their specific concepts in perception, thinking, feeling and acting. Earlier experiences are considered, free from prejudices; there is an interest and motivation to continue learning.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intercultural_competence

a other one :

What can go wrong?

People from different cultures encode and decode messages differently, increasing the chances of misunderstanding, so the safety-first consequence of recognising cultural differences should be to assume that everyone’s thoughts and actions are not just like ours. Such assumptions stem from potentially devastating ignorance and can lead to much frustration for members of both cultures. Entering a culture with this type of ethnocentrism, the assumption your own culture is correct, is another byproduct of ignorance and cultural misunderstanding. Main types of misunderstanding are:

Language

Even when two people think they can speak each other's language, the chance of error is high. Usages and contextual inferences may be completely different between cultures. So even though one speaker may have learned the vocabulary of the other's language, selecting the most appropriate words, with the correct intonation, spoken with appropriate eye contact while standing a proper distance from the other are all critical even before one considers the propriety of the topic to be discussed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intercultural_communication_principles

I think that the majority of people here who have know succes is not due to the fact of a common language ( but it help ) but due to the fact that they have first try to learn the culture of the other first... simply see the numerous topic here based on culture : who are RW, what they like, what gift for family, what are the superstition, etc... about 50% of question here are cultural question...

A newbies knowing the russian language but knowing nothing of the FSU culture is perfectly ready for a "crash and burn" experience... Let see our number one poster here, i mean JB... he have work with Russian in Russia during several month, he have learn to know the Russian culture... and i think that it is one of the main reason of his success in the relationship with his wife... he understand her... maybe, sometime, they don't need words for communicate... one regard can be enough...

So, yes, English is a big help... but nothing will replace the cultural knowledge... and RWD is a good place for learn about it...

[jinx13]

Cons?  The only one I see is that you limit the field somewhat if you only meet girls with some English.
But the positives of being about to TALK to the girl in depth BEFORE doing a K-1 far outway the one con. 
So I think the FAQ would definitely lean toward dating girls with at least some English.
But we both know that a pretty face in a profile will lead newbies to meet these girls who speak no English.  But once they meet someone that can talk to, they will quickly move to her.

  The cons of a non english speaking girl are many, but if a guy wants to expand his options and tap into that market (which is big) of meeting with women who speak their native language only, then he should learn Russian, not just a few basic words, but enough to have real, meaningful conversations. I just don't think most guys would go through this much trouble, but it would be worth it in my opinion. Just think of the opportunities that would be available to Western guy who speaks Russian very well, he could meet women almost anywhere, and not have to rely on agencies, translators, or perception of a woman's character and personality.

 Of course this is easier said than done, like many I have done the Pimsleur thing, but off and on, I know the basics but thats about it. It takes a big commitment to learn a new language, I guess meeting with English speaking girls is the easy way out for most of us, but it really does limit you, imagine not having those limits, the world of Russian women would be yours!

 p.s. of course after a successful meeting with a non English speaking RW she should be the one making the effort to learn English, how nice it would be if you can both communicate in each others language, but thats not reality I guess.

[catzenmouse]

Bruno,

 That was a very well thought out and informative post. An excellent insight for those entering into this very complex FSUW search.

Ken

[Jumper]

I liked captB's summary.

and agree with Gator it isnt as black and white as the debate often gets on this topic.

It is a personal choice -
and the motivation and personalities of BOTH individuals involved can be a huge factors?

A quiet, shy,  WM or RW,,  without a common language are going to have a huge hurdle to jump.

Conversly, two big extroverts with a llt in coomon and a big motivation to get to know each other,
 probably wont sweat it much?

of course they would likely be the personality *A* types that would jump right into learning each others langauges immediately as well.    


Me? If starting out the slate is clean?
So i would certainly look for RW with some basic english or better.

If we hit it off , and start a relationship,
i know by its nature,
its going to be long distance and we will not be seeing each other daily/weekly like in a more traditional romance.

That means email and phone time
and LOTS of it !!
if you want to get to know each other.
 I want to be able to call at random,
or her to call me at random ,  just to chat.

this can be an important point to guys thinking about this?
on the phone is ALWAYS far more difficult than face to face with someone of less than completely fluent skill level..
niether of you are likely going to be fluent in the others language.

You visit and get along conversation wise, "ok" face to face..
 now try that over the phone..
it will drop 1 or 2 levels.

My wife was what i personally would call very basic english when we met, yet we could have normal conversations on the phone, without searching for words..or frustrating difficulties.
That really made things much less difficult.

(she previuosly had 3 years of college english, and is also somewhat fluent in Italian) but she felt it was up to a good enough level..and  jumped right in to learning english with a very seriusos and concentrated effort, went thru several instructors she thought were not proficeint enough , until she found a very good one at a good price..then you could see almost daily and certainly weekly improvements.    


Anyway-
For me personally , being able to have easy and random phone conversations would be a minimum requirment.
and yes i delved into learning Russian as well, and it did help a lot.

It simply makes things  much easier  to learn about each other.
That's not rocket science afterall.

Can you *get by* without a common language at the very first steps of the relationship?
yes..

[catzenmouse]

That means email and phone time
and LOTS of it !!
if you want to get to know each other.
 I want to be able to call at random,
or her to call me at random ,  just to chat.

this can be an important point to guys thinking about this?
on the phone is ALWAYS far more difficult than face to face with someone of less than completely fluent skill level..
niether of you are likely going to be fluent in the others language.

Hoo Boy! Did that bring back memories. Elena would plan out and write down (in English) all the things she wanted to tell me and would have her dictionary next to the phone while we talked. We'd spend hours on the phone and often it would be rewording things we said to break it down and get to the place where understanding was mutual. I'd work up a few things to say in Russian (which I was really, really good at screwing up when the time came to say it) but this was a huge help in our getting to know and understand each other.

Ken

[Michelangelo]

Me? If starting out the slate is clean?
So i would certainly look for RW with some basic english or better.

Same here.  I'd rather start with a girl who speaks English, or at some level of English. 

That's why I recommended several pages back, that when using an agency, just go for girls with English.

Now, if someone happens to introduce you to a beautiful FSU girl who does not speak English, then go for it.

But when you are choosing, choose a girl with English.

SCOTTIE!!!!  WHY DID YOU START THIS MESS???     LOL

[KenC]

Michael,
Actually there has been some good to come out of this thread.  Of course we has to persevere all the whining and crying of the "it doesn't matter" crowd to get to it.  Gator really has identified that of course it is possible but it will take an extended amount of time in order for the RW's English to get up to speed prior to making the commitment of marriage.  That makes sense to me but of course that adds to the time period these desperate MOB jockeys don't want to spend.  I swear if they could order a woman and have her shipped FedEx overnight, they would do it.  No English? No problem.  Only spent a few days getting to know her? No problem.  What the hell do you mean it is gonna take longer?  I don't have the time to do this right, just send me my damn woman NOW!
(And please expect me to come back crying when everything goes sideways )
KenC

[LEGAL]

I f you read it through carefully you will note what  the question is:

Okay, after I posted this topic my wife gave me one more thing to think about.  Her comment was, "How serious can a woman be about finding an American man to marry if she is not willing to learn even basic English beforehand?

Serious woman doesn't begin to look for future husband, especially foreign husband, without her thoughts - what is type of man  she wants to find, what is country (culture and customs) where she would like to live, what are her possibilities to convert her wish into a fact.

Olga.

[IAmZon]

Simple question that should not add to the cloud this topic always creates:

What would you suggest the proportion of English speaking RW is between the Ages of 20 - 30;versus 30 - 40; in primary cities like Kiev; Odessa; STP; and Moscow; versus the secondary cities like Tver; Kherson?

(Is there a Russian Ukrainian statistical Abstract, so I can stop asking these type of questions?)

[Michelangelo]

Yes, Ken...there are a few good thoughts to come out of this strand....here is one more...

YES- select girls at the agency who speak zero English.   Meet them with an interpretor.  Marry the interpretor