Russian medicine

[prince_alfie]

Men in the fsu are quite healthy....why?  Scenes like this on the streets....

For men....this is very good treatment...great for your heart, indeed 

Is that supposed to be medicinal or healthy to look at? 

[catzenmouse]

Is that supposed to be medicinal or healthy to look at? 

Alfie, Alfie, Alfie.... That you had to even ask scares me!  :noidea:

[BC]

Is that supposed to be medicinal or healthy to look at? 

I went blind long ago...

[Zhena]

Medical education in Ukraine is more equivalent to a Master's Degree in the US.  After completing school at age 17, anyone who wants can enter the Medical University.  It is a six year program with the first three years being taught in English to accomodate all the foreign students, since that is the most widely spoken language.  Unfortunately many of the professors don't speak English well so they basically memorize the lecture or just read it.  Until I started providing some medical texts in English to the local Medical Institute, there were none.  After their 6 years, they are officialy doctors and can practice.  That's why you see so many nice looking 23 year old doctors on the dating sites. Compare this to my 4 years of pre-med, 4 years of med school and 4 years of residency and you get some idea of their limits.  The other big problem is that graduation relies more on providing "gifts" of cash to the professors than it does on actual test results.  If you don't come up with several thousand a year for this, you don't graduate.
     As I write, my wife is holding a Bioptron light to her throat to cure her laryngitis, having ignored all of my suggestions.

Not just 6 years-we have a residenture too. For the surgeons its 3 years,for others-2 or 1.

[Zhena]

Charlatans - natural  healers are big problem in Russia. It is the cause and effect of distrust Russian medicine, lack of money to get a good medical service and Russian age-old  habit and trajectory  to be preoccupied with a self-treatment.

Olga.
 

True. We have *usual* and *alternative* medicine. The second one is full of charlatans who dont have any medical degree but pretend to know everything. There are the big money involved also,cos its *natural* and better for ur organism,as many people believe. A huge number of the people believe in that! Such a brainwash...

[Zhena]

OUCH, Now that doesn't sound too good.  I have my stories too regarding RW and modern medicine.  Like the time my wife and mother in law attacked me to rub vodka on my back to cure bronchitis.  Uh huh, whatever.  My MIL brings over a new stash of voodoo meds every trip.
KenC

Thats a recipe of a self-treatment and that might help It works cos vodka heating. But just to apply it on the body is not enough. The compress with vodka really helps in a case of angina and other throat inflammations. Thats how the people treated themselves many years ago.

[Zhena]

    How about the vodka mixed with a lot of salt remedy?  Not really sure what it fixes, but it's guaranteed that you will say you are better so you don't get a second dose!
     We're always being asked to give people injections of something or the other. The doctor will write a prescription for some injectable med and have them find someone to give it to them.  They are very similar to Mexico in that they believe that an injection is better than oral meds.  So instead of taking an antibiotic pill like Keflex three times a day, they will get an injection 3 times a day for ten days.  When I first came over Ella's grandmother was ill and was prescribed three separate IV injections she had to receive daily for 10 days.  Guess who got to find a new vein every day and inject 20cc's through a dull needle?
     As far as the lady with sciatica, the pregnancy or "recreational" therapeutics ideas don't work because she was in her 50's.

You re not agree that injections work better? ??? When you take the oral pills,you loose some number of medicine in the gastrointestinal tract.

[Zhena]

Men in the fsu are quite healthy....why?  Scenes like this on the streets....

For men....this is very good treatment...great for your heart, indeed 

I wopuldnt say they are healthy ;)Americans much healthier cos of style of life. The russian men live shorter.

[viking]

A woman I knew in SPB complained about severe headaches. Her doctors remedy was to put 6-8 small plasic cups on her back and using a vacuum pump draw blood up into her skin, sort of like a large welt. I saw them and they were ugly. She said it was uncomfortable borderline painful. The concept as told to me was to reduce the blood supply to the brain by taking it to her back. She said it worked. Of course the headaches came back which indicated that the root problem was not cured. Personally I would prefer an Advil.

[Mir]

Cupping is a well established method of treatment in all cultures.

[Pike]

I have had my share of listening to various women in FSU tell me about medicine.  Really just very scary the things they believe.  And most scary is that they think medicine there is better than in USA, despite fact wealthy people from around the world come to USA, or at least western Europe for treatment vs going anywhere in FSU for same.

I knew one woman who had brain power off the upper end of the chart (for most things), but yet believed in the folk medicine and charlatans type of treatment.  She believed in going to the spas or sanatoriums there and getting the enemas.  She said if I would look at what came out I would know how important it was to have this done to get that out of your system.  He!!, I can sit on the toilet and get the same results.

[Pike]

You re not agree that injections work better? ??? When you take the oral pills,you loose some number of medicine in the gastrointestinal tract.

- - - - -

Zhena, Scott is a MD with 12 years of medical school, so I think he probably knows best about this.  But, I do hope that he responds to your comment.

[Pike]

I'm Board Certified in Family Medicine and have spent the better part of 20 years practicing Emergency Medicine, but it seems according to the locals, especially my wife, I have no clue.  For example, right now she is suffering from laryngitis/tracheitis.  Every explanantion I have tried to give her for how this started and every treatment option I have suggested have been soundly rejected.  It seems she is more willing to listen to old wives' tales and the suggestions of friends and casual acquaintenances than mine, probably because they are more in line with what she has been told in the past.  Every attempt to provide a scientific explanation for her symptoms and proposed treatment is rejected. 

Scott, I would think this would put a serious strain on your marriage.  I don't think I could live with someone who rejected my educated and informed advice in favor of those with less knowledge.

Even with those who have been just friends of mine (male or female), when I realize they are listening to my advice in my area of speciality and then doing the opposite, I can no longer think of them as good friends.  They are, in effect, saying they do not respect and value me or my knowledge.

[ScottinCrimea]

To be honest, this does sometimes put a strain on things because it is difficult to feel that my knowledge is not respected, but I realize that she has never seen me in my home environment so I think she sometimes judges my knowledge by my limited ability to explain things in Russian and her limited ability to understand me in English.  Medicine has its own unique language.  I know when what I say has gotten across to her, though, when I hear her telling it to others.  She has also witnessed the excellent results \i have gotten helping some people here when the locals have failed.  Most of the time, if what she is doing isn't causing any harm, I just keep silent.  Besides, most of what we do as doctors is to give the patients something to keep them busy until their body heals itself.

Now, in response to Zhena's comments:  While cupping is practiced in many areas, there is still no scientific evidence that it works.  Like astrology, just because it's practiced by many people, doesn't mean it has any basis in fact.  As for oral medicines versus injections, you could use the same arguement that you lose some medicine into the muscle that never reaches the blood.  There is a thing called the "first pass effect" which means that a certain amount of a drug is lost through filtration by the liver before it ever reacts with the body.  This, as well as any losses through the GI tract are taken into account when the dose of a drug is determined.  This means, for example, that you would use a smaller amount if injected directly into the vein versus into the muscle.  So the end result is that a medication taken by mouth is just as effective as a medicine taken by injection.  The only advantage to the injection is that it begins to work a bit faster.  Other than in emergency situations, the difference in time isn't important.  Isn't modern medicine wonderful?

[William3rd]

Have you tried bleeding to let the evil humours out??

For gawd's sake- at least shut up all the windows and turn up the heat.

[Turboguy]

When we were in Bangkok, VWRW came up with an eye infection.   She had what I would describe as a half moon puff ball below one eye that was about 3/8" and about 1" long.   She said she knew how to fix it and asked if I had a needle and thread.   I assumed she was going to lance it to let the puss out and hoped as close as it was to her eye that she had a steady hand.

Instead she wrapped thread around the upper part of her fingers of both hands which she said was a pressure point.  That would cure it if she caught it early.  For those of us in America with all our antibiotics and such it is of course a pretty foolish idea.   We know something like that could never work.  Of course in the morning when we got up she had recovered 100%.   Perhaps some of the things that seem foolish to one culture may work fine in another.   There are many things in this world we don't understand.

[ScottinCrimea]

I have run into one idea in Russian medicine that makes me crazy.  I'm sure Mir would appreciate this.  Everywhere I look I see people here with very unsightly fleshy polyps that they have had since birth.  The doctors refuse to remove them because they say that they might have cancer inside them and if they remove them it will spread the cancer to their bodies.  Yesterda a friend of my wife's came over to visit.  She showed me two small polyps on her back and told me that her dactor had said that she must not do anything to irritate them such as take a mud bath because it will cause the cancedr in them to spread.  I assured her that this is just nuts and told her next time she comes all I need is a little lidocaine and some sharp scissors and I will have them off in 10 seconds.  My wife showed her where I had removed a small one from her thigh with no scarring and no terrible afteraffects.

[Elen]

I have run into one idea in Russian medicine that makes me crazy.  I'm sure Mir would appreciate this.  Everywhere I look I see people here with very unsightly fleshy polyps that they have had since birth.  The doctors refuse to remove them because they say that they might have cancer inside them and if they remove them it will spread the cancer to their bodies.  Yesterda a friend of my wife's came over to visit.  She showed me two small polyps on her back and told me that her dactor had said that she must not do anything to irritate them such as take a mud bath because it will cause the cancedr in them to spread.  I assured her that this is just nuts and told her next time she comes all I need is a little lidocaine and some sharp scissors and I will have them off in 10 seconds.  My wife showed her where I had removed a small one from her thigh with no scarring and no terrible afteraffects.

  Each time I read something like THAT I wonder what group of society you are involved here?  There are an OCEAN clinics which offer such a service with removing that polyps - just open a newspaper in each average city ( a visit to specialist of skin cancer IS OBLIGATED just to know how exactly such "polyp" should be removed and what futher treatment should be done after surgion) But in a case if it's not cancer but just "plastic surgent"   it costs money and not everybody is ready to pay those money

[ScottinCrimea]

     Elen, this is where you are wrong.  It is not necessary for every skin lesion to be checked by a skin cancer specialist, biopsied, etc. and with most, no follow-up is required.  Any competent dermatologist or family physician for that matter should know which are safe to remove without a biopsy and which require further testing. In all the cases I am talking about, they are obvious noncancerous skin polyps that I have removed hundreds of times with NO complications.  These skin clinics you refer to use false information to scare the population into doing nothing about these, either because they are afraid of terrible consequences or because they don't have the money to pay these private clinics for a service they don't really need.  I doubt you could find any Western physician who would not be shocked and a bit amused by this concept of dermatology.

[Elen]

Well I may be wrong and doctors could judge if it's "good" or "bad" polyp from first sight  But any way each such clinic is obligated to have skin cancer specialist in staff ( as far as I know)

 And BTW those clinics I refere to MAKE MONEY on removing polyps  I told you SUCH procedure was made ONLY for money here (it's only cancer's cases which 're treated for free)  Do you think those private clinic scare people out of their business on purpose  It would be some "odd" even for Russian people don't you think so 

 Okay let presume there are such jealous physicians in free of pay local polyclinics who scare people from private clinics for purpose  But in anyway I don;t see what could stop people to pay a visit to that private clinic for consultation at least except lack of money or a lack of own concern to those polyps, or a lack of time, or a lack of something else except a lack of clinic here which do remove those polyps

[Daveman]

By the way, what you are experiencing with your wife is not limited to medicine.  It's a manifestation of what I have come to call 'The Cement Effect'  Once they make up their mind about something, nothing.. absolutely NOTHING will change their minds, and any attempts to correct them will likely be met with indifference at best, and a worst... well, you just don't want to know.

The Cement Effect...  That's a great way to say it.  I have run into this "effect" on more than one occasion.  Truly, it can be stupidly, moronically, idiotically, tenaciously obstinate.  Really.  Stubborn to the extent of complete stupidity.

Many have said that Russian women are the most clever and intelligent in the world.  Perhaps it could be true but I question this assertion, simply because, one aspect of intelligence is "open mindedness" - the willingness to re-evaluate what has been learned, comparing and contrasting with new information, developing new opinions, strategies, beliefs and adjusting courses of action as necessary.

And, even if you are an expert in the field with years of study and experience, if her friend once read something ridiculous in a book twenty years ago, her friend will know more about it than you do.

Sometimes I think she could be in a building which is on fire. Smoke is everywhere.  You are standing on the sidewalk and she is talking with you through the open window. You tell her the building is burning and point to the smoke all around. You tell her to leave the building, but you are stupid because her friend read in a book 20 years ago that this building cannot burn and everyone should know this.  Really, this is only a slight exaggeration.

Luckily I have a considerable amount of patience and have learned to just smile about it.  I don't think I could tolerate years of funneling money to a charlatan though.  You have more patience than I would have in that situation. 

I'm sure not all Russian women are this way but it does seem to be fairly common from what I've seen.  It certainly would explain why so many Russian men drink themselves into a stupor. :-))

There are many fabulous traits inherent in Russian women that are extremely endearing and beautiful, but this is one which has made me seriously question the realities of marriage on more than one occasion.

Dave

[ScottinCrimea]

     Yes, the "cement effect" is definitely there.  We're seeing a mild example of it in this post. However, I've seen my wife change considerably as she's seen over time that my "strange ideas" have typically proven to be right.  But on the other hand, we see a bit of this in Americans who think that everything American is better.
     Elen, you missed my point.  These clinics tell people that these skin lesions can only be removed by a skin cancer specialist (them), so they must pay big money to have them removed.  If these people can't afford what these clinics charge, they are forced to do nothing because they are afraid to have anyone else remove them.  These clinics certainly won't do it for free.  The people don't know that they have another option which is much cheaper.  Any reasonably competent doctor at a public clinic should be able to remove these without having to refer them to an expensive private clinic.  Perhaps there is a system of payoffs for doctors who refer these simple cases to these private clinics?  I can think of no other reason other than incompetence why any doctor wouldn't just do this simple procedure themself.  They don't need a skin cancer specialist!

[Elen]

     Elen, you missed my point.  These clinics tell people that these skin lesions can only be removed by a skin cancer specialist (them), so they must pay big money to have them removed.  If these people can't afford what these clinics charge, they are forced to do nothing because they are afraid to have anyone else remove them.  These clinics certainly won't do it for free. 

No It;s you miss a point just because you are not familar with medical insrance rules here and with medical system as well. ( wich has not such institute like "family doctors" at all fro example)

  I told you CANCER is treated for free  Specialists who work in private "skin" clinic is NOT cancer skin specialist ( they have only few of them just to make diagnostic in "doubtfull cases)  - Those private clinics deal with cosmetic defects Treatment of cosmetic defects are NOT included in free of pay medical insurance in principle matter. I have not idea what methods you are speaking about ( if only it's may be some  ointment ) but laser, cold ,knife  - all such methodes of removing those defects on skin are out of local physicians's duty and competention. Their duty and competention is to make first diagnostic, provide therapy treatment and send people to more competent specialists in particular sphera. - belive me it's MORE than enough for thode doctors to deal with.  And their first advice is to visit free of pay cancer skin specialists  ( or go stright to private clinics) - I see nothing bad in that) Cancer skin specialist decides if "thing" must be removed in any case or it's not a thread to health and it's only a matter of "beauty" In second case it's up only on people to decide if they are ready to pay money or they are fine with what they have. But in any case people should come to doctor with such a "prolem" which in majoruty cases they just do not do.

[ScottinCrimea]

     Okay, so tell me why I have seen literally dozens of people with ugly lesions who don't have them removed if the treatment is free?  In every case they told me that their doctor had told them that it could not be removed because it would spread cancer throughout their body, which is pure pseudoscience.  I see now that you don't understand the types of skin lesions I am talking about and perhaps that is the basis of the musunderstanding.  The simple skin polyps I am talking about are definitely within the scope of practice of even the most basic physician.  The problem is not that they don't have the equipment or skill to remove them, the problem is that they have the wrong idea about the nature of these polyps.  In short, they don't know what the heck they are talking about.
     I am familiar with the rules of medical insurance here in Ukraine.  I work with the local medical university, know many doctors here, and my wife and her daughter make use of the clinics here when necessary.  I have seen the difference between "free" medical care and what you get if you give the physician a "little extra".  I  held my wife's grandmother's hand as she died at home because the "free" medical care refused to admit her to the hospital without an advance payment.

[Elen]

     Okay, so tell me why I have seen literally dozens of people with ugly lesions who don't have them removed if the treatment is free?  In every case they told me that their doctor had told them that it could not be removed because it would spread cancer throughout their body, which is pure pseudoscience. 

 Yes there is no such a word "lesion" in my vocabulary and there are too many variouse skin defects for I could guess what exactly cases you are speaking about I tell you just about a procedure how it's supposed to be . A threat to your life - treatment is for free after conclusion made by cancer specialisst, no threat but just cosmetic defect - treatment is for money.

 I'm not going to discuss your experience in the Ukraina I can tell you only about my own experience  - there was experience with private skin clinic , and there was eperince with consultation in cancer centre. That's all

( PS And I do not pay bribes in principle matter because think that those who do that just corrupt doctors. Just such my a matter of principle)

Now I'm off from here and leave you to tell your stories about how bad medicina at  the Ukraine