Christian Girls

[Photo Guy]

Also I was saying that the fight Othodox vs Chatolics has very long history so there is nothing for you here to be conserned now.
Did I clarify myself? Or there is something else I should to explain?

Are you saying that because there is a long history of conflict, people should not be concerned about it or try to solve the problem?  Doug

[Photo Guy]

As for your statement above, I'd agree with the first part but not the second. Doug

 What's a problem with the second part? Does that mean people who are not religion
are not abble to see what's good and what's wrong?
[/quote]
I think that sometimes they are able, but people can be brain-washed by governments (Let us hate the Jews) or by television/media (The importance of materialism). Religion provides a moral compass. Doug

[Elen]

Who are 'they'? The other religions? Is it totalitarianism? How do the Orthodix justify trying to prevent the exisitence of other religions?

They are here for example  (may be the list became more longer since 2004) according to the World scientific conference 'Totaliritarian sects and democratic state"

Novosibirsk November 9-11, 2004

http://iriney.vinchi.ru/document/conf2.htm

(don't you think there are some many "claimants" for our souls?)
 

[Elen]

 think that sometimes they are able, but people can be brain-washed by governments (Let us hate the Jews) or by television/media (The importance of materialism). Religion provides a moral compass. Doug

Too opinionated I'd say:D BTW Is it only Christian religion wich provides a moral compas or other may pretend on that role too (like say muslims;), for example)

[Elen]

Are you saying that because there is a long history of conflict, people should not be concerned about it or try to solve the problem? Doug

I want to say that conflict is such long , such knotty problem and to my mind such silly (if presume that God does exist) than it does not consern me (personal) at all.

(Well boys I leave you coz it's too late here Good night;))

[Photo Guy]

think that sometimes they are able, but people can be brain-washed by governments (Let us hate the Jews) or by television/media (The importance of materialism). Religion provides a moral compass. Doug

Too opinionated I'd say:D BTW Is it only Christian religion wich provides a moral compas or other may pretend on that role too (like say muslims;), for example)
[/quote]
Sure, there can be a Muslim moral compass too. Moral Christians should speak against atrocities like the Inquisition AND moral Muslims  should speak against atrocities like 9/11.  Spekoine Noiche.    Doug

[Bruno]

Topic started two day ago, 7 page, more of 1000 view...

This confirm my feeling that religion is something important in the life, certainly when it is for search a partner...

I am strongly fight religion because i have see murder in the name of religion during my army service... usually, religion is not bad but people use it for politic reason... it is the same with the law... i don't know how work the system in US but here, in Belgium, we take care of independance between the three power : politic, law, and religion... all mix between two of these three can lead to great problem...

During my several trip to ex-USSR, i have know 2 topic who was very hot and passionate with russian people ( both man and woman ) : politic and religion...

Take care that your russian girlfriend, same if she say be atheist or orthodox but don't practice... all can change when she will be living with you... because of adaptation problem, she go search contact with something she know and the orthodox church can be this...

In any case, if you are believer of not, i think that these subject is need to be speak before marriage... several RW say that they are atheist because they know that WM are usualy atheist... visit orthodox church in russia, you will be surprised... in our country, you find usually old people in almost empty church... in russia, the church are full, with children, young, adult, old people...

Of course, i don't speak about big city like Moscow or St Petersburg... but it seem that regio where the economie is more low, where the life is more difficult, ... more people go to church...

[Amarillo Slick]

Bruno,

Excellent reply, I do not fight religion like you do, but I agree with your previous post. Because of the volume of views and replies on this subject, this indicates the potiential problems that can arise because of religious/spiritual differences. I am a newbe, that is why I started this post at the starter link, and have gained alot of useful information, and I hope other newbees have also.

[Photo Guy]

 SNIP
In any case, if you are believer of not, i think that these subject is need to be speak before marriage... several RW say that they are atheist because they know that WM are usualy atheist... visit orthodox church in russia, you will be surprised... in our country, you find usually old people in almost empty church... in russia, the church are full, with children, young, adult, old people...
SNIP

Several RW say that they are atheist because they think WM are usually atheist?  I'm surprised to read that. I would guess it would be the opposite...but I am a newbie here and can learn from experienced guys like you who have been there and know a lot more about the FSU than I do. It sounds like religion could be an obstacle for you, in the context of Galina's family. What percentage of 25 to 35 year old women in FSU are practicing Christians?
...Just wondering.   Doug

[Elen]

Of course, i don't speak about big city like Moscow or St Petersburg... but it seem that regio where the economie is more low, where the life is more difficult, ... more people go to church...

Exacly. People very often go to Church not because they are strong believers but because they want to "ask help" when they know nothing what to do else in this life.

And huge part of people in Russia who you see in Church are of that kind.  (they know no one pray, they don't go to Church every Saturady-Sunday, they go there just when some "problems" happen in their life and they need a help of God)

Well of course one of the Church's role is right that -  to "smooth souls" but there is one proble to my mind - when all is OK in the life of those people they don't appear in the Church. And when there is a chance to make a life here some better (but to overstep some churches' "moral")  they don't hesitate too long.

(PS Our oligarhs and "killers" love to go to Church too - to pray for forgiveness of their sins. Such true believers:?)

[Elen]

What percentage of 25 to 35 year old women in FSU are practicing Christians?
...Just wondering. Doug

 No one knows for sure as the question about religion was expeled from the last general census. (it was the decision of Church:P . One of the reason was - people say they believe but they are NOT true believers:P. )

[philb]

Just a few things to consider and I am not trying to proselytize.  Christianity is not about values or providing a moral  compass.  While being a part of Christianity, they are not the focus of it.  If that was the case Christianity would be no different from any other religion.

One more thing.  No Christian is perfect or even close.  Arguably the most important Christian in history, outside of Christ ,  referred to himself as the chief of sinners and considered all of his good works as no more than "filthy rags". (I am speaking of the Apostle Paul)  This was not just his attempt at being humble either.  All of those whom Christendom holds in high regard were flawed.  Think of David, St. Peter or any of the Apostles for that matter. 

[Bruno]

Doug, you speak pourcentage... stastistic... some link below

* Religions and religiouness in Russia in 1991 ( 281 pages )

http://www.fsd.uta.fi/english/data/catalogue/FSD1092/cbf1092e.pdf

* The future of Religions and Religious freedom in Russia ( 13 pages )

" % of grown since the collapse of the soviet union : 1988 (+18.6%), 1991 (+39%), 1993 (+43%), 1995 (+64.2%) "

http://www.georgefox.edu/academics/undergrad/departments/soc-swk/ree/linzeykrotov_tfo01.doc

* Encyclopedia : russian orthodox church

"Fall of Communism in 1991 allowed for the Church to expand even further. Today, the Russian Orthodox Church is the largest of the Eastern Orthodox churches. Over 90\% of ethnic Russians identify themselves as Russian Orthodox. The number of people regularly attending church services is considerably lower, but growing every year."

http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Russian-Orthodox-Church

* Report from Moscow: Religion and Atheism in Russia

http://www.atheism.ru/old/HatAth1.html

 

[anono]

Example? Well let's say that a mayor of a city does not like the
editorial views of one of the city's citizens, so he tells the Sheriff to go to that person's house and arrest him for a bogus crime like slander.
He is hauled off to some unknown place in northern Alaska.

That's an example of the power of un-checked politics.

How can religion counter that? The mayor tells the Sheriff to arrest the citizen and the religious Sheriff truns around and tells the mayor that he is not going to do his bidding. The Sheriff feels this would be the wrong thing to do, to arrest the citizen on false charges. The Sheriff thinks and acts this way because he feels the action would violate his own religion or religious convictions.

If religion is viable force in society, that force will be among the forces of the society's government. Many religious ideas are ingrained in our laws. 'Thou Shall Not Steal' ...coincidentally there are quite a few laws on the books regarding that. A Coincidence?
...and, of course, many more examples

 

i thought you said in goverment. we can trade examples infinitely i suppose, here's mine: the terry sevago (sp) thing in florida. here we have a religious fanatic in the white house, a catholic in the govenors mansion in FL., (i was raised and confirmed roman catholic) a conservative religious majority in congress, they claim to be for states rights and small federal government.

a private family is having a medical tradegy and a loved one is in a PVS for 15 years. (without going into all the details of the circumstances), the legal decision maker in this situation, backed by all the laws of the state and federal governments makes a decision these politcal leaders do not agree with and they try to interfere. they try to impose their religious beliefs on this family causing greater suffering of all those involved but the person in the PVS.

the sheriff does not have to be religious to be moral and have good ethical judgement and reasoning or follow the laws he has agreed to enforce.

and yes, thou shalt not steal, it''s no coincidence that thou shalt not kill is also a law in this country. but this country has decided there is an exception to that rule so they have the death penalty. and in fact, if they had it their way, they would be putting juveniles to death as well. (joining i think like 7 or 8 countries in the world, half of which were identifies as 'axis of evil' by the white house).

so here you have a religious backed government trying to interfere and make a person who wants to die, live; and at the same time want to kill people who want to live. sounds a tad hypocritial to me, don't you think?

i'd feel a lot safer in a society run my laws based on ethical principles, even those principles in the 10 commandments. letting someone die is not killing them.

i would not want that government imposing their beliefs on mine. i am not breaking any laws.

[Photo Guy]

i'd feel a lot safer in a society run my laws based on ethical principles, even those principles in the 10 commandments. letting someone die is not killing them.
i would not want that government imposing their beliefs on mine. i am not breaking any laws.

Laws, ethics, and religion are all interconnected.   Doug

[Bruno]

[user=134]Photo Guy[/user] wrote:

Perfection does not exist, therefore hypocrisy will exist. No surprise there. 'Religious backed government' is a silly label. It assumes that a President should be atheist or agnostic for government to be 'free' of a religious component.

Doug, i go explain you a little story who have happen some year ago in our country... in Belgium, we have not a President but a King... Several year ago, with the previous King, we have know a religious problem... The King was a strong believer and catholic and he have not accept to sign a new law for abortus ( in case of children with genetic anamolie )... since the chamber, the senat and the citizen have agree these law... result... for one day, our King was not more King... Belgium was a republic for 24 hours... the time for the first minister who have replace the king for sign the new law and make it active...

So, it is the perfect example where someone with great power go against his citizen because of his religious convictions... we have find a solution but it was more simple if he have sign these law... With your president, it is the same situation... he is the president of all US and represent the citizen of all US... by accepting these post, he have no more the right to think about his own meaning... he need to follow the meaning of all his people... when you start in politic, you choice and public life and need to assume it... and your private life have nothing to make with politic... and religion is a privat part of the life...

[jb]

Bruno,

What you describe is called anarchy.

 
1. Absence of any form of political authority.
2. Political disorder and confusion.
3. Absence of any cohesive principle, such as a common standard or purpose.

The United States of America does not operate as you seem to think.  We elect people in whom we trust to have the necessary wisdom and moral courage to act correctly in our behalf.  We do not set aside their authority for 24 hours  just because we don't happen to like their decision on a particular topic.  

Few Europeans have ever really understood the USA's political process, so you are not alone.

[Bruno]

Bruno,

What you describe is called anarchy.

I call this democratie... the king is not elect... our chamber, senat, minister, first minister are elect by citizen... if the king was not able to make his work, it was only two way... accept his meaning or become a republic... we have find a solution between the two...

Now, we trust our gouverment when we elect him but several time, politic change the planned program after election... citizen have the right to control politic... some week ago, the president of our senat have make public explain and excuse because she have try to make some politic influence in a law procedure...

It is not the first time that we change of gouverment before the end of mandat... if one of your worker don't make a good job, you change of worker... it is the same with politic man... citizen is the chief of politic man, it is the definition of democracy... if politic have all the power, it is a dictature...

And yes, i agree with you JB, i don't understand your politic system... only two party... election are more a TV show that a real politic program... so much power in the hand of only one man, i cannot imagine what can happen if he become mad... citizen don't judge a politic man on his politic act but take care of sperm trace on a robe ... in these periode, the evolution of economie was reverse of the president erection...

What i can say, it is that for his first mandat, Bush was a clown who think only about his own country... but now, he is slowly become a real politic man open with the world... and i find the first lady better that the president... only her was able to calm down europa after the problem of Irak... during the last visit in Brussels, she have make several great speaking... who have build again the strong friendschip and trust between US and EU...

But don't worry, several American don't understand how work our democratie... and several european too ... but it is working

Seriously, our and your system are not far... all democratie are based from the French revolution, when citizen have revolt against dictator... our path are different but the goals are the same...

 

[jb]

all democratie are based from the French revolution

Our respective history books disagree.

The American revolution predates the French by quite a few years. (as a reminder) The American's began getting rid of King George in 1776.  It is a fact that the French copied the Americans in this bit of history.  In fact, many of the French revolution leaders were among the French soldiers and sailors who had been to America under Lafayette and with the regular French forces under Rochambeau...

The period of the French Revolution in the history of France covers the years between 1789 and 1799, and is descirbed as one of the bloodiest political events of europe, second only to the reign of the Nazi party of Germany.

Just for clarity.

[Elen]

Fall of Communism in 1991 allowed for the Church to expand even further. Today, the Russian Orthodox Church is the largest of the Eastern Orthodox churches. Over 90% of ethnic Russians identify themselves as Russian Orthodox. The number of people regularly attending church services is considerably lower, but growing every year."

[/i]

If you guys interest in numbers of Curchers in Russia now then that statistic Bruno gave out would satisfy you. But if your goal is to figurate out how things are with "moral"  in Russia then that statistic should be accompanied by some others numbers like increase of crimes (especially among the youth and what more frightfull  the most hard crimes like murders among teenagers), or by numbers of prostitutions, or by numbers of abortions, or by number of homeless children on the streets.

Let compare ALL these numbers with statistic of "expansion" of Chuchers in Russia after the fall of Communistm and I would be glad to see what conclusions about Church's ability to montain moral (in Russia) you can produce:?

As for me I can't understand how lowering of moral on all levels sorts with growing every year a religiousness among Russians:?

[Bruno]

Our respective history books disagree.

The American revolution predates the French by quite a few years. (as a reminder) The American's began getting rid of King George in 1776. It is a fact that the French copied the Americans in this bit of history. In fact, many of the French revolution leaders were among the French soldiers and sailors who had been to America under Lafayette and with the regular French forces under Rochambeau...

The period of the French Revolution in the history of France covers the years between 1789 and 1799, and is descirbed as one of the bloodiest political events of europe, second only to the reign of the Nazi party of Germany.

Just for clarity.

 

Yep, our history books disagree... The war in 1776 in US was not really a revolution... it was a fight against UK for the independance of your country from outside control... These evenement was only the begin of USA... ( see photo )... it have take a long time for the build of US.



The French ( and in some way the Russia ) revolution was a fight from usual people for control itself his country... control by citizen and fight against king ( or tsar )... and of course, these two revolution was bloody...

French revolution was about democratie, the US one was about "common sense"...

Common Sense was a pamphlet first published on January 10, 1776, during the American Revolutionary War by Thomas Paine. Its pages contained a denouncement of British rule.

Arguments against British rule in Common Sense:

- It was ridiculous for an island to rule a continent
- America was not a "British nation"; it was composed of influences from all of Europe - Even if Britain was the "mother country" of America, that made her actions all the more horrendous, for no mother would harm her children so brutally
- Being a part of Britain would drag America into unnecessary European wars, and keep it from the international commerce at which America excelled.
- The distance between the two nations made the lag in time about a year for something to go round trip. If there was something wrong in the government, it would take a year before the new America heard back.
- The New World was discovered shortly after the Reformation. This showed the Puritans that He wanted to give them a safe haven from the persecution of British rule.


The publication of this pamphlet was key in the growth of popular support for independence from Britain. Thomas Jefferson took ideas from both this publication and John Locke when writing the Declaration of Independence.

The independance of US is the birth of a great new country... the French revolution is the end of power from King and Church againt own citizen... a revolution is a civil war...

[jb]

http://www.historyplace.com/unitedstates/revolution/
http://campus.northpark.edu/history/WebChron/WestEurope/FrenchRev.html

[TigerPaws]

The independance of US is the birth of a great new country... the French revolution is the end of power from King and Church againt own citizen... a revolution is a civil war...

 Once again Bruno you are stepping into areas you no NOTHING about our founding fathers started a revolution against the King of England for their independence. Additional we fought our own civil war against each other, North vs. South. I realize you firmly believe you know all and see all but as usual the facts contradict your preconceived ideas.

 

[ConnerVT]

Of course Vermont was a holdout for quite some time.  But then, between those damn Dutch from NY and the poachers from NH trying to take Vermont land for their own, we had enough to keep us busy...

[Bruno]

The independance of US is the birth of a great new country... the French revolution is the end of power from King and Church againt own citizen... a revolution is a civil war...

 Once again Bruno you are stepping into areas you no NOTHING about our founding fathers started a revolution against the King of England for their independence. Additional we fought our own civil war against each other, North vs. South. I realize you firmly believe you know all and see all but as usual the facts contradict your preconceived ideas.
[/quote]
I don't see what is the problem with my post ... the independance of US followed by the treaty of Versailles was the starting of USA... the great power from these time ( Spain, France, UK, Netherland ) have reconize that USA was a independant country when they have sign these treaty....

And about your civil war, i know about it but it is not in the same time line... this is comming later...

JB, thank you for the links... i add it to my collection ... and i correct my previous post... no only French or Russian have make revolution for respect of right of citizen... these two was bloody but we have these last year several example where revolution can be pacifist... and benefic... the best example is the orange revolution in Ukraine... short, without blood, where citizen revolte against the president... i think that is the best modern example how a "good" revolution can happen...

It will be my last post about politic on these topic .... politic and religion in a same topic can give explosive result :D;)