Using a guide in Ukraine? Be careful!

[William3rd]

Right on the mark, JB. There is nobody on earth that can dispute your rationale on these facts.

[jb]

Thanks, Bill, coming from you, that's high praise indeed.

[Stirlitz]

JB has some strong points. However, he is missing an important point too. Saving the client’s money is not actually the primary reason for hiring a guide. A guide is supposed to guide and assist you in the first place. If he can also save you some money, good. Consider it as a bonus, but don’t get addicted to it. Hiring a guide just to save money is ludicrous. Like buying a car just to sleep at. Don’t forget what it is all about and where you are going. If you came to Ukraine with the sole purpose of saving money and even hired someone to do it for you, you would be much better of staying at home, believe me.

Yes, I can save my clients’ money but it is not what I offer them first of all. I just noticed after I had some experience that this is what I can also do sometimes (in fact, it is my clients’ observations that brought this fact into my attention), and I never miss an opportunity to do so, and I can mention this advantage of having me around too without making it a big poing. But I try to concentrate on providing my clients with what they actually hired me for, even if it costs something. This is what I make a point, not saving them money — I do not think it even makes sense to talk about it, if you can afford a guide, you do not need to be saving money on a trip.

From my experience... Even if an individual is referred to you as a reliable guide in Ukraine, always be aware that the guide will act out of necessity rather than the reasonable commercial standards you'll accept at home.

Just your opinion based on your single experience at that.

I assumed that the promises I was made would be upheld (best price etc). Eventually I worked out that best price actually meant "Best price I will give you at the time"… Guides are like taxi drivers... they don't have a standard charge and they will exploit what is available at the time.

Again your opinion which might be true at a particular case but not in any one. Check out my services/rates web page http://guide.igorkalinin.com/services.en.html and you will see my rates which are the same for everyone, otherwise I would just write: “Contact me for a quote” like many business in America actually do. Yes, I can be flexible and sometimes give discounts but it is exceptions. I don’t have different rates for different people depending on their country of origin, possible income, etc however surprising and embarrassing you would find it. As for the type of taxi drivers you described, I detest them and always stay away and steer others away, be it my clients or just people in the street.

A guide will charge you to the extent that is available at that moment, just like any other service provider. (Stirlitz, a guide, said this earlier in this thread)

Please use the quote function when you refer to my words. Otherwise they may seem your words just ascribed to me. When did I say this? What exactly did I say? Or maybe you are just twisting my words. Just quote instead like I do.

The thing I learnt from my first trip to Ukraine was that YOU DON'T NEED A GUIDE unless you need the comfort of feeling like someone is "there for you".  If you're experienced and sensible you can find your own way.  Nothing I accessed was unavailable through other mediums, and no advantage was gained by engaging a guide, price and service included!

Wow! Columbus would envy you, for your discovery is greater than his. Congratulations!

However, some people do need an aide and nothing wrong with that. Guides just wouldn’t be there otherwise. It is not that Pavel one day comes to RWD and says: “Guys, you just cannot get around without me…” It is vice versa.

Fixing your car is easy and you can do it yourself so why pay a shop? For some reason, so many people just leave it for the mechanics. Even if one of the people is shouting all the time, “Hey it’s easy! You don’t need them, can fix it on your own!” Even if some people really do, I find nothing wrong with others avoiding the trouble. What? You really fix your car on your own all the time, Kuna? OK. Well, in fact I do too. But my stupid neighbor does not. How do I persuade him? Oh, I know. I will be writing all the time: YOU DON’T NEED A MECHANIC!

You may choose your own path, but I think that most people that have some travel experience under their belt, and if they seek advice from RWD members, will be better off if they don't engage a guide.

Again, just your opinion. It's funny to watch you as you are dead set on repeating it forever. Don’t forget about fixing cars, for people who do not have crooks instead of arms and using the Internet it is better to fix their car on their own be it a flat tire or a malfunctioning engine. Am I wrong? Oh yes. Cars are so complicated. But mechanics are only interested in ripping you off, so do think twice!

Is a guide acting in your best interests?  No, I don't think so.

Guides are just people like you and next guy. They do not belong to a different race or religion or whatever when it comes to work and money. “I don’t think so”? Let’s see why you think like that. As people tend to regard and value others’ motives and actions from the viewpoint “what-I-would-do-there” rather than take into account the simple fact that the other person may have quite different values (primitive psychology but helps a lot), I assume that whatever job you have you are NOT acting in the best interest of your clients/consumers, all that interests you is money and you are always ready to rip them off whenever possible. Then, your point is understandable (but not valid).

However, I would dare to note that people are different and some may have different values and attitudes than you, so your attempt to attach yours to them is not very wise. Believe me or not, but people are different, from you in particular (even if some are similar).

They are not the goals the guides have in mind (money).

Mind you, Mr. Mindreader, that as I explained above different people have different goals not necessarily coinciding with yours. I, for one, regard money as means rather than goals. While money is a nice thing, it is not something ultimate I live for and can sacrifice anything for. There is always a line and there are superior things. Like dignity, for example. (Don’t look this word up, you are going to understand the meaning behind it anyway).

However, stingy people have an opposite view and you have proved it.

I felt sorry for Pavel, now that I got to know you better I really feel sorry for the people you make money from. As money is obviously your goal, they are lucky law is there and you still abide it (hopefully). What would happen to them if there is no law tomorrow?

[catzenmouse]

JB has some strong points. However, he is missing an important point too. Saving the client’s money is not actually the primary reason for hiring a guide. A guide is supposed to guide and assist you in the first place. If he can also save you some money, good. Consider it as a bonus, but don’t get addicted to it. Hiring a guide just to save money is ludicrous. Like buying a car just to sleep at. Don’t forget what it is all about and where you are going. If you came to Ukraine with the sole purpose of saving money and even hired someone to do it for you, you would be much better of staying at home, believe me.

So, if a guide says that he will save you money he is lying? And if he does say that and does not delliver on that then it is your fault for believing it? And if you do believe him you are not smart enough to travel so you should just stay at home? Is that what you are telling us Stiriltz?

Interesting.

[jb]

Stirlitz,

You are justifying this behavior?  Perhaps you are also a clever thief if you treat clients in a like manner.

I re interate, if a guide claims to offer to find better rates for services, i.e., apartment, transportation, etc., then over charges and takes a percentage of every transaction,,, then the guide is a liar and a thief.  Do you deny this?

Maybe this is your typical business model to pluck the white bird, but I don't think you will make many new clients here with that as your goal.

P.S.  The point I'm trying to make here is that there are always two fees for servces in the FSU,,, the local rate,,, and the foreign rate.  If I hired a guide/handler, I would expect him to get me the "local" rate for apartments and transportation, not the foreign rate.  If I wanted tickets to the theater, he should get me good seats at the local rate, not the foreign rate.  What we most often see is guides slacking on prices, then adding a percentage for their own pocket... This is called "scamming".  I don't approve of this activity.

[BC]

If I am a client and intend to fly to a certain location and my guide advises me that a private car costs so much, train so much, bus so much and 'by legs' dirt cheap then he's done his job.

Whether or not I save money is up to me though..  I might value time more than the difference in prices.

My 'guide' was my wife so just guessing here... I'm sure though considering my poor RU language skills my trips would have been considerably more expensive without her.  My 'savings' were (free guide + what I may have overpaid without her)

[jb]

BC,

My post above was assuming a man does not have a frugal g/f to keep him from phucking up too badly.  i.e., the man who needs a guide vs. the guy who doesn't.

[Stirlitz]

I will try to refrain from personal attacks as my reference to dyslexia will certainly be regarded as such but I am too damn lazy to type much the same stuff over and over again so I will just use the magic Quote button below. I hope this helps better.

You are justifying this behavior?

JB has some strong points. However, he is missing an important point too…

The point I'm trying to make here is that there are always two fees for servces in the FSU,,, the local rate,,, and the foreign rate.

my rates which are the same for everyone… I don’t have different rates for different people depending on their country of origin, possible income, etc however surprising and embarrassing you would find it…

Edited to add: Well, I am not sure it will help actually, so I will translate. ‘JB has strong points’ means ‘I agree with him and don’t refute what he said’, thus I am not justifying the contrary. Am I clear enough?

[jb]

Then you agree Pavel did a bad thing???

Don't bother to reply to that,,, I have to go to bed soon and I don't need to be bothered with a non-sensical answer to a silly question that we both already know the answer to,,, right???  Money is money, wherever it comes from.  Hat's off,,,I salute you.

[Kuna]

Stirlitz,

You are justifying this behavior?  Perhaps you are also a clever thief if you treat clients in a like manner.

I re interate, if a guide claims to offer to find better rates for services, i.e., apartment, transportation, etc., then over charges and takes a percentage of every transaction,,, then the guide is a liar and a thief.  Do you deny this?

Maybe this is your typical business model to pluck the white bird, but I don't think you will make many new clients here with that as your goal.

P.S.  The point I'm trying to make here is that there are always two fees for servces in the FSU,,, the local rate,,, and the foreign rate.  If I hired a guide/handler, I would expect him to get me the "local" rate for apartments and transportation, not the foreign rate.  If I wanted tickets to the theater, he should get me good seats at the local rate, not the foreign rate.  What we most often see is guides slacking on prices, then adding a percentage for their own pocket... This is called "scamming".  I don't approve of this activity.

jb,

You've understood exactly what my issue is with the integrity of guides.

My issue wasn't not getting local prices.. It was being charged HIGHER than the tourist rate!

Some examples?

Example 1:
When I checked the price of a taxi ride to the airport the worst price I got was 150UAH.  I imagine that was Tourist Rate!

When I asked my guide how much for a car and driver to the airport he told me 200UAH.  It's a small difference but it broke the promise.  This lie was told during a phone conversation when I raised the suspect prices, and I was promised I WAS getting "best prices".  My guide didn't realise I'd checked prices and was about to test him... and he just failed that test!

Example 2:
My guide quoted me $400 for a car to Dnepropetrovsk and I've just realised I could get that trip for $250.  Best price?  Hardly!  I wasn't getting Tourist rate... I was being quoted and charged significantly ABOVE tourist rate!

Enough of the examples... I could go on forever!

If guides simply left the "best price promise" out of their spiel and just said "I will make your trip smoother and more comfortable" there would be no expectation of best price.

Remember, it wasn't only a promise of best price.. I was charged a service fee that was explained as his fee for getting me the best prices!

Kuna

[Jack]

....."If I am a client and intend to fly to a certain location and my guide advises me that a private car costs so much, train so much, bus so much and 'by legs' dirt cheap then he's done his job".....

B.C., if you are a client and your guide advises you that a private car cost's X but he adds +20%, a train Y but he adds + 25%, bus cost Z and guide adds +18% and in reality and unknown to you the car really cost's X, the train Y and the bus Z, has he done his job in your opinion?

I realize when I point out and magnify some of your thinking, understandings and expressions in previous post's in this thread all my post seem to get deleted, but it is a chance I take.

[Stirlitz]

Then you agree Pavel did a bad thing???

Which thing? Quoting $80 and later quoting $140? Besides Kuna’s claims, there are no proofs he did that.

You all know what a false domestic violence claim is. No proof necessary, just say he was going to abuse me. Doesn’t help to deny unless you have a good attorney at hand. For me, saying that he was going to charge me this and later quoted that is similar. No proofs, just to tarnish a reputation. Doesn’t help to refute.

So who did worse things — Pavel or Kuna — is not clear. Someone surely did as false claims aimed at compromising somebody is a bad thing certainly. Reading Kuna’s posts and his style of argument I am inclined to believe Pavel more here.

If you can provide me convincing proofs of what really happened I can give you an answer who did a bad thing. So far you don’t hear what you don’t want to hear (note ‘hear’ instead of ‘read’, no reference to dyslexia again, but answers are up in this thread).

Oh, yes, charging Kuna $140 instead of $150 and $200 that he was quoted by other guides is a bad thing indeed. Misers should be charged to the full extent because they are never grateful.

I don't think you will make many new clients here with that as your goal.

Why are you all so concerned about me making new clients here? For you and William it seems to be a big point, you can talk about it for ages. (Some of agency owners here elude your attention though, I will not name them (Dan I hear you)).

Have I ever said that I want any clients off this board and wait for them here? Have I ever advertised here or offered anything other than advice/knowledge/insight/views? Please find a post of mine not dating back a year ago. I don’t think you will find more than one, just try to find one. Did I have to quote myself again and tell you that I am not necessarily like you and if I am here it does not mean my primary goal is making clients? That I can have other goals and already have enough clients who are referred to me by word-of-mouth? Is fishing for clients the only possible reason you can think of for me being here? I feel sorry for you because it does not take more than a greedy businessman attitude to make this conclusion. But I will repeat: different people have different attitudes, goals, values, etc. Don’t measure everyone by yourself. God created people equal but not the same.

Yes, I might be able to help some of people who read this board. Should I conceal this fact?

[Jack]

...."Have I ever advertised here or offered anything other than advice/knowledge/insight/views?".....

...."Again your opinion which might be true at a particular case but not in any one. Check out my services/rates web page http://guide.igorkalinin.com/services.en.html "......

[Mod1]

in this thread all my post seem to get deleted, but it is a chance I take.

Could that be because those posts were simply fighting/instigating more fights? Asking that question is the chance I take isn't it?

We'll let this run a bit longer but again it is turning into a grudge match so if it doesn't change course quickly it will get locked again.

Mod1

[jb]

Kuna,

You MISSED the whole point of hiring a guide.  When I go to the FSU, I live Russian, I pay Russian prices, I travel Russian, I never pay foreign prices for anything.  I can do a lot in Russia for very few dollars,,, things you cannot do with your so called guide because he's skimming a lot of dollars off the top, he's paying local prices for everything you do and charging you foreign prices,,, plus he has to keep his buddies close at hand when you need things.

'Tis the nature of the beast.

Stirlitz,

Please don't assume I'm an idiot with no experience in the FSU, I was there before you were born.
I know how things work in Russia, Ok?  Let's not get into a pissin' contest about how to pluck the white bird.

[Jack]

Mod 1 why don't we look at the two replies I made to B.C.?  They were direct replies to his (B.C.) statements. My replies were deleted but B.C.'s remain.

B.C. smelt a scrooge and I pointed out 5 times where Kuna mentioned that price was not a factor (thus leading me to believe B.C. must not have read the same things I read from Kuna's post), as well I mentioned I knew four other individuals who were not tight with there money who had similar complaints. Certainly no scrooge with those individuals.

Mod 1 B.C. then mentioned that Kuna was overall satisfied with the services he received. I told B.C. I could not believe we were reading the same thread and showed B.C. some 20-30 comments made by Kuna reflecting that. Amongst some of those quotes were,  I could not trust him,  I would never recommend him,  I wanted to tell him to go to hell but needed his help  and  I began to look for someone else to help me.  Those are quotes of someone who was overall satisfied with the services he received?

Of course not Mod 1 but you elected to delete by replies to B.C while allowing B.C.s mis-leading statements to remain intact.

I agree with deleting of the threads between Jinx and myself but you went way over your bounds and good judgment in my opinion by deleting my direct replies to B.C. but allowing his remarks, which were really quite far from the feelings Kuna had expressed, to remain.

[BC]

B.C., if you are a client and your guide advises you that a private car cost's X, a train Y, bus cost Z and in reality and unknown to you the car really cost's X plus 20%, the train Y plus 25% and the bus Z plus 18%, has he done his job in your opinion?

I realize when I point out and magnify some of your thinking, understandings and expressions in previous post's in this thread all my post seem to get deleted, but it is a chance I take.

Jack,

Using your examples, If I realized as client that the additional percentage was my agents 'cut' then all would be ok.  This may have been the discrepancy noted by Kuna.  Who knows... I wasn't there.  I'm sure both parties have learned their lessons from this thread and that's quite ok.  No need to beat dead horses or kick dead dogs.

Really, I kind of enjoy constructive discourse with you up to a point..  I think I remember Dan announcing he cleaned up a few posts here and there but that's his business and not mine.  I even remember a recent post where I stated that you certainly have much to offer to folks here, more than I do in many areas..  Learn to share selflessly and I'll be your biggest fan and supporter.  I don't hold 'grudges' or resentments, having learned long ago they are my worst enemy.

Worth a virtual 'shake'?
 

[Jack]

B.C. if, and we are using an imaginary situation here, the guide told you he was charging you a flat fee for his services and you would pay his cost for the ride to/from airport, driver to Kharkov, and you found out later that you actually paid $20 more to and from the airport, $100 more for ride to Kharkov, that the guide had pocketed this extra charge, would you feel this was ok?

Let me go over again, so you agree to pay this guide say $150 for his services, you think it's a good deal.  And overall you were happy with the guide. He met you at airport, got you back to the airport as you left, got you to and from Kharkov as promised. And once you got back home you found out that the guide who was arranging your transpiration at cost, because you paid him a service fee, had padded the expenses he told you, would you feel good about this particular guide now, after you found out he had padded the prices you were charged?

And yes, virtual handshake happily accepted. 

[jb]

B.C. if, and we are using an imaginary situation here, the guide told you he was charging you a flat fee for his services and you would pay his cost for the ride to/from airport, driver to Kharkov, and you found out later that you actually paid $20 more to and from the airport, $100 more for ride to Kharkov, that the guide had pocketed this extra charge, would you feel this was ok?

Let me go over again, so you agree to pay this guide say $150 for his services, you think it's a good deal.  And overall you were happy with the guide. He met you at airport, got you back to the airport as you left, got you to and from Kharkov as promised. And once you got back home you found out that the guide who was arranging your transpiration at cost, because you paid him a service fee, had padded the expenses he told you, would you feel good about this particular guide now, after you found out he had padded the prices you were charged?

 

Can't speak for BC, or anybody else,,, but I'd feel like I'd been screwed by someone I'd trusted.  And I think this is the problem Kuna has with Pavel

[Michelangelo]

Ok, this is so redundant...everyone has had their say several times.

So, I'm done posting here (and everywhere so I can spend more time with my girl, and my work).  I'm also done reading this stand and will turn my notification off.

Cheers, everyone....

[jb]

M/A,,,

So what was your point?  If your point was that you are leaving us,,, bye-bye. Sorry to see you go.

I didn't see a comprehensive point about guides anywhere in your post, which is surprising,  you are usually more supportive of your ideas than that.  Do I detect a more Republican and less liberal POV from you?  Moving a bit to the right??  That's alright, welcome to the real world.

[BC]

And yes, virtual handshake happily accepted. 

Jack,

It's a deal.

Regarding your hypothetical scenarios, I also suggested somewhere way upstream that pricing policies should be quite clear between providers and customers. No argument from me on this point and I think Pavel is also reviewing this aspect.

I live in a country where such discussions are quite the norm.. who promised what etc etc.. maybe just maybe this is why I'm giving benefit of doubt to both parties involved.  Over time I have learned that Italian and RU ways of doing things *seem* very similar.

In any case both you and I are not 'judge and jury' considering we have nothing more in front of us except word against word... I think we both can accept that on that basis that ANY determinations on our part is purely conjecture.

The bone has been gnawed bare.. lets bury it.

<-- hands Jack the shovel 

[Stirlitz]

Stirlitz,

Please don't assume I'm an idiot with no experience in the FSU, I was there before you were born.
I know how things work in Russia, Ok?  Let's not get into a pissin' contest about how to pluck the white bird.

I do not assume more about you than your messages can say, and I am merely responding to your arguments. What’s wrong, why do you mention ‘idiot’? I would rather than you address my messages which you proved to have been ignoring so far, judging from my need to quote myself. Then why do you care to respond to me at all? Either try to understand my point before hitting the button or skip it entirely.

...."Have I ever advertised here or offered anything other than advice/knowledge/insight/views?".....

...."Again your opinion which might be true at a particular case but not in any one. Check out my services/rates web page http://guide.igorkalinin.com/services.en.html "......

So what? This is the FULL quote:

I assumed that the promises I was made would be upheld (best price etc). Eventually I worked out that best price actually meant "Best price I will give you at the time"… Guides are like taxi drivers... they don't have a standard charge and they will exploit what is available at the time.

Again your opinion which might be true at a particular case but not in any one. Check out my services/rates web page http://guide.igorkalinin.com/services.en.html and you will see my rates which are the same for everyone, otherwise I would just write: “Contact me for a quote” like many business in America actually do. Yes, I can be flexible and sometimes give discounts but it is exceptions. I don’t have different rates for different people depending on their country of origin, possible income, etc however surprising and embarrassing you would find it. As for the type of taxi drivers you described, I detest them and always stay away and steer others away, be it my clients or just people in the street.

What does it have to do with seeking business? Can’t I make a point if I need to refer to my web site? Why is it automatically equal to advertising without taking my real point into account?

Twisting words and taking them out of context is low tactics (but you have proved in this thread that it is your tactics by first attacking me then editing it out).

You could have removed the first sentense in that quote to make it look like advertising but this would not help.

[Leslie]

Hi JB,

Maybe I am taking this out of context

"I re interate, if a guide claims to offer to find better rates for services, i.e., apartment, transportation, etc., then over charges and takes a percentage of every transaction,,, then the guide is a liar and a thief. "

Err then EVERY guide I have ever met in FSU is a liar and a thief. The reality is that they ALL indulge in these practices to some extent.  It is foolish to expect these people to work by western business ethics.  After all this is completely normal behavior by Russian/Ukrainian standards...

I reckon you know this as well as I do JB.  The best strategy is to assume that all of these things are going on and just keep an eye on the extent. As long as it is not too rapacious then pay up.  It is part of the overhead of being a newbie.  If it oversteps your limits call the person out, refuse to pay and fire them.  Guides are like taxis you just phone for another one...

There is a very common trait exhibited by newbies - "Falling for your terp"  I reckon all the OMB's have heard stories like this over and over.  Inexperienced guys place way too much reliance on their terp.  Believing all the crap that is often spouted.  If the terp is a good looking young woman - falling for her.  All this is a huge mistake.  I can remember such a terp.  She wanted complete control of my every waking hour.  Claimed I would be robbed or kidnapped instantly unless I was constantly in her care.  She wanted to pick me up for breakfast to tucking me in at night   

That way she could extract the maximum amount of money from me 

PAKA!!

A sensible guy will be more independant right from the start.  It is a good idea to book specific help.  For example: I will meet you at globus at 3.00pm and will require your services to 6.00pm.  Buy things yourself.  It is not difficult! A Russian phrasebook and a friendly attitude will get you a long way!

Kuna A taxi from Kiev center to Boryspil should cost 80 Hrivna.  The little bus costs just 10.  So you were being overcharged.  This is normal until you speak conversational Russian and blend in.  The big milestone for me on foreigner prices was getting past the theatre babushkas with local tickets.  Those baba's can spot a forigner at 100 paces! Oh they stopped me and questioned me.  Said I had a foreign accent.  I said yes I do but I here is my wife    Nothing more said but that little step took me 5 years...

[Kuna]

Leslie,

I hear what you're saying and I think it's an interesting overview for newbies.

I certainly went in expecting my guide to deliver upon the promises that were made because he was recommended by several people.  Perhaps the promises grew a little by the time he met me and as I discovered, I wasn't just NOT getting local prices.. I wasn't getting Tourist prices either.

I know my journey will be different next time... I also hope other newbies realise Guides aren't necessary except for very specific activities and if they're ever used they should be treated like taxi drivers, not trusted confidants.

Check prices, negotiate everything, demand the services you want and reject anything outside of your requests, and be very wary of accepting their advice.

I was lucky.. I suspect others aren't so lucky but don't even know it!

Kuna