Latest Demands from Jim . . .

[SANDRO43]

There's a Russian proverb -- "Tell me who's your friend and I'll tell you who you are."

Probably a universal concept : Dimmi con chi vai, e ti dirò chi sei, in Italian .

[Mir]

And Oscar Wild says:

'Always forgive your enemies; nothing annoys them so much'

[Jet]

Don't believe me? Ask Jet. Anyone who's tried to start a war with someone like Jet should tell you where the real problem lies (hey Jet, whassup? Sorry to drag you into this, but Dan needs to understand the core problem, or it'll just keep repeating with different individuals like Stirlitz, Doug Salem, etc.)

Moy dva kopecks.

~CG

Marty, while I'd like to agree with you, this time I just can't. Dan and I chat from time to time and so I may have just a tad more info than some of the other members regarding this situation. As I understand it, this whole sh!t slingin' festival was born out of a thread started by one disgruntled ex-RWD member from the UK who had "issues" with RWD's policy on advertising that's viewable by non-members. It really had nothing to do with Jack at the outset.

NOW, the part I find ROTFLMAO comical, is while Jim pounds his fist and demands the Dan removes 20+ legitimate opinions, the advertiser in question has NEVER asked for, nor received, any preferential treatment here (to my knowledge); and there are far more damning threads about them, than about JimsList.

[CG]

S'all right Jim, I trust your impartiality and interpretation of events. But I couldn't help but do a little independent research to try and discover where all this started. Dan has stated that Bruno's analysis is correct, so I wonder what he'll think of the following, which was posted by Bruno in July of '06, well before that disgruntled ex-RWD member had any issues with the advertising policy:

http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=2158.0

"Michael,

Are you new here ? If you have read several of the post from Jack ( not these with sexy picture ), you will know that it is not the first time that Jack attack the site of Jim...

It seem that Jim have find some old post from Jack at www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=1485.msg30973#msg30973 ... he have first reply on these old topic and only after, he have post these new topic...

In French, we say : "Qui sème le vent, récolte la tempête" 

Why Jack will sue Jim since he was the first to open fire here !

Ok, Jim have take some scam profile from other scam site when he have start 6 year ago... not a good practice but used by almost everybody... when a site start, he seek a basic content somewhere else... article, profile, etc ... For my own previous marriage site, i have buy a few contact information of lady ( 1000 e-mail address for only 50$   ) and ask them if they wish be on my site. In the case of Jim site, it is a little more difficult : i don't see him ask scammer if they wish be listed   ... but this was the start, now we are 6 year after... the site is running from itself and people submit scam to the site...

About the "Jack fact" that Jim ask money to agency for be listed in the Gold list, i know that for my case, it was not true. Jim have propose to list me in his Gold list in 2004, at the begin of my site, when i have submit my only one passport scam. I have simply refuse but he was ready to make it for free, no fee asked.

YES, all i never fully clean in these international dating world... but who is fully perfect lauch the first rock !"


From www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=1485.msg30973#msg30973 -- almost a year ago to the day:

Jack
Agency Owner/Affiliate
Offline
Posts: 1223
   
ua.profiler
« Reply #4 on: March 16, 2006, 10:35:51 AM »

"Yes, Viking, this was a sleazebag scum operation and they did take many good and sincere women and post them on their site as scammers. And to make things worse this was one of the sites that Honest Jim from Agency Scams was stealing profiles from and adding to his site and now Honest Jim had good ladies on his site that he had labeled as scammers. This was the reason I was first prompted to ask Honest Jim how he verified the women he added as scammers were scammers to which Honest Jim told me it was none of my business..."

Once again, according to Bruno, the origin of this war seems to lead directly to a certain infamous agency owner...

~CG

[Admin]

Marty,

The only thing you are doing is taking this topic even further off-track.

It is undeniable that Jack and Jim have been going at one another for years. So what? Nothing new there - and dredging it back up doesn't illuminate anything - just regurgitated history.

The more recent events are the one which Bruno addressed - and those are, IMO, much more relevant.

- Dan

[CG]

Dan,

I'm not sure why you feel that quoting Bruno saying "If you have read several of the post from Jack ( not these with sexy picture ), you will know that it is not the first time that Jack attack the site of Jim..." and "Why Jack will sue Jim since he was the first to open fire here!" would be considered taking the topic off-track.

You might consider this history to be "regurgitated", but it's always the same person who starts spewing it!

~CG

[Admin]

Dan,

I'm not sure why you feel that quoting Bruno saying "If you have read several of the post from Jack ( not these with sexy picture ), you will know that it is not the first time that Jack attack the site of Jim..." and "Why Jack will sue Jim since he was the first to open fire here!" would be considered taking the topic off-track.

You might consider this history to be "regurgitated", but it's always the same person who starts spewing it!

~CG

Bruno can speak for himself. I would guess he will say that he sees EVERYONE as being sullied in this quagmire - Jack, Jim, me and others, perhaps. I also suspect he has seen things in Jim these past few weeks/months that he never saw before.

But as I said - Bruno can speak for himself.

- Dan

[BillyB]

Jim changing things on his site daily with new attacks does not put him in a favorable light. Jim, I've tried to be fair with all parties in dispute but what you're posting on your site about Dan today is getting too personal and incorrect. You say you list facts but your disclaimer says it's your opinion, not fact.

I hear Jim is  hard to deal with but have all parties in the "negotiations" been professional? I remember a thread started by Viking saying he got an e-mail that had bad news written all over it. http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=3926.0
 
Dan, the same day that letter was sent out to people, you said you received an email from Jim which was highly-charged emotionally, threatening and accusational. Could it be that Jim never send out the letter in the thread and that is what fired him up since he thought the letter was damaging to him more than Jack thus making it harder for you to negotiate with him? Kind of like those Middle East negotiations, everything is fine until somebody blows themself up to kill an Israeli because the truth is, they don't want peace. Could it be all those "legitimate" opinions in that thread about Jim weren't legitimate at all? The free speech by all posters might have been pure crap based on speculation on who sent the letter? Were people duped on a grand scale?

At Jim's site, he said he didn't send the letter but his enemies did. Of course that's easy for him to say because it hurt him more than Jack. The letter was supposedly written and sent by Jim's "friend" who said Jim would not approve of his actions. But how did Jim's friend get a thousand e-mail addresses if Jim does not approve? A guy doesn't hand out a thousand private e-mail addresses to a friend unless something is brewing and he approves.

Viking said he was sent this letter at the same time 50 other people received it through letters G and H. I could've asked viking to cut and paste me those addresses and e-mailed all those people to ask if they ever e-mailed certain businesses. It would have given me the trail of who owns all those e-mails and who might be behind the letter because the IP address may not be reliable since the sender, if smart, would disguise his IP address.

I didn't like the threatening tone of the letter towards Jack one bit and normally I would chip in to help catch a person who would make such threats but I didn't pursue it because I might be afraid of what I would find. You see, many people didn't catch this but Viking said in the thread he never contacted Jim but he has e-mailed Jack previously. Jim has no business owning Viking's private e-mail address to give to his "friend".

It's a shame many people's personal info was used for this game. Maybe even passed around to third parties enlisted to send out letters.

I don't think, at this time, it's productive for me to pursue "who done it" but some apologies and admittance of guilt may be due for things to progress forward. Finger pointing and name calling isn't going to accomplish anything. That letter was way out of line no matter who wrote it. The passing of people's personal contact info around was way out of line. Unless that person "way out of line" doesn't take the first step to redeeming himself, I can see why negotiations have failed and will continue to fail.

I believe Jim has hit below the belt and needs to start being a MAN and admit his faults and apologize. But.... if others have hit below the belt too, apologies and admittance of guilt are due to Jim if there is to be resolve. Two wrongs isn't going to make things right.

The constant display of dirty laundry and dirty tactics isn't going to help anybody.

[Jack]

Billy B, I for one would encourage you to try to find who sent that letter. If you would like I will send you the e-mails I received from guys here on RWD who received this letter and the e-mails attached to those letters.


The FBI, yes, the FBI, has been given all the information I received about this letter. I contacted them immediately. Because of the personal threat in this letter the FBI also advise I contact my local police department, which I did, and you could get a copy of their report if you would like. The FBI is not passing out any reports at this time.


Billy yesterday I sent you an e-mail with what I thought was a wonderful way of wrapping this up.  Did you pursue that opportunity?


To let others know yesterday I contacted Billy. As he has had previous contact with Jim I thought he might be able to help. Yesterday I told Billy that this situation could be resolved quickly and so easily.  Jim has posted on his site over the past year "Does Jack introduce his clients to known scammers? Yes, I can prove it!   Now that's a pretty strong statement and to top it off  with "I can prove it".    This statement and a few others like it are the reason the Jims List Sucks site was created. 

Jim writes on his site, "I only list facts".  To make such a statement like this about a marriage agency, especially one that prides itself in protecting it's clients from scammers, is a devastating statement. On such a site as Jim's it could ruin an agency.  Here we have an anti-scam agency who I think is, and should be, trying to gain the trust of the community he is trying to serve.  I think all will agree to that.  Trust, reliability is very important for Jim's sites.

I told Billy yesterday, and one other person on RWD, that I would issue Jim a full and sincere apology, I would never say another negative thing about Jim or his site again, and I would remove the Jim's List Sucks site immediately, within hours, if Jim would simply prove this statement to Billy. 

I don't know if Billy asked Jim this, if he did I don't know what Jim told Billy. I don't understand why Jim would not prove this to Billy.   Can anyone think of just one good reason, based on all Jim has to gain, name one good reason why Jim would not offer the proof that he says he has to Billy or anyone else?


This offer stands to anyone reading this. I will offer Jim a formal and sincere apology. Will never mention him or his agency again. Will remove the Jim's List Sucks site within hours, if Jim will just tell me who are the known scammers I introduce clients to.  If so the war is over and Jim has won.

[viking]

Hey Billy

I did give Dan the full header info from that email. Unfortunately, the letter itself has been deleted. Did not see a need to keep it. I know some people will really get their shorts twisted in a knot when receiving this type of stuff, but I have so many other things to be concerned with in my life right now, that this is not even a blip on my radar. Hence, the delete button. I think in that thread some others may have also gotten the letter. If you are still curious you might want to contact them.

[catzenmouse]

Jack,

 I think we all know very well that "Honest Jim" could not prove that there is no air in space or the earth is round. The man just does not have a single ounce of credibility or integrity about him.

 Sorry to all of you who think that this could be instantly fixed by anyone here. You're living in a fantasy land that is not too far off from our good buddy over at ScamSiteAboutAgencyScams.com.

 Neither Jack nor Dan (nor a host of doctors with electric shock therapy) can instantly fix someone who is so hell bent on basing a life in lies and misconceptions.

 Personally, I would like to see "Honest Jim" sink into the deepest rankest pit around. The man is the worst kind of low life there is.

All just my opinion of course,
 Ken

[Photo Guy]

Right. I say ignore him and ignore his site.

[Bruno]

But as I said - Bruno can speak ...

Seem that lately, my name is used in several topic for reference... hmmm, maybe i need learn for not speak so much 

Of course, jack is not a angel... his history with Jim is long... but it is not the problem here... Jack is not Dan... they are maybe friend but i don't always agree with my friend...

I think that the main problem is that Jim have use nuke for defend himself againsy Jack... nuke are weapons who make a lot of collateral damage... RWD was one of the victim and these victim have fight back... the fight back have lead to attack all the sites from Dan, with some preference again the CMA since it is a concurrent system to the jimlist.

I don't think that problem will be resolved... too much hatred between the involved people.

Problem is that too much people use opinion like fact... in the last days, i have see some people saying that Dan was involved in the anti jim site... for these who remember, after the "spam" letter, i was able to shutdown the anti jim site ( provider have suspend the account for a short time )... when i have start these procedure, i was like several thinking that Dan was involved ( opinion ) and fearing that RWD will be down in the same time... the short shutdown have show me that Dan was not the owner of these anti jim site ( fact )

My point is that we use too much "opinion" in so topic... with almost no "fact"... people begin think "conspiracy", simply based on wind... Jim have shot at RWD thinking that Dan was associate to Jack... he have use his opinion based on no fact... and this was the begin of the war between Dan and Jim... these war is our concern, what about we speak here on these topic... problem between Jack and Jim is something other, old history not related to these forum...

[BillyB]

Jim, I read your apology letter floating around in cyberspace and maybe you took my suggestion to do that but you poured gasoline on the fire when attacking Dan's business that does put food on the table and listing his personal info. You need to apologize and erase everything and maybe your opposition will do the same. I know in your apology letter you said you once erased everything but did not get the same treatment from Dan and Jack and your personal info was listed on the forum once before and was not erased at your request but to do the same is not helping your cause. Somebody has to start with the first move and maybe it's already happened but now there's an audience(witnesses). Who will prove they are willing to make peace by taking the first step of apologizing and erasing crap said out of anger?

I'm not trying to pick sides because both sides said they want peace but both sides accuse the other of not wanting peace. Words mean nothing. Let's see some action.

Jack, Jim has not e-mailed me back.

Viking, someone sent me your header info. I'm not an expert with IP addresses but a basic check told me it came from some university in Japan. But there are people smart enough to throw others off their trail.

I too have received the same letter supposedly coming from Japan. Unlike Viking, I have e-mailed both Jim and Jack once before. There's a chance a competing agency, forum, or anti-scam site set this up to escalate a war between Jack, Dan and Jim. I now have over a hundred e-mail addresses from people all over the world. There should be a common denominator between all who received the letter. All of us must have sent an e-mail at one time to the same agency, forum, or anti-scam site. Whoever possessed our e-mails has used our personal info for this game of theirs thinking they're too smart to be caught.

If Jack knows he didn't do it and Jim knows he didn't do it, then we should try to find out who would write such a letter, recklessly passing out personal e-mails to another party to do the dirty deeds, and the results should be turned over to the FBI. It's easy for me cut and paste other people's e-mail addresses and to write a canned letter requesting info of others where they use their e-mail address in the RW industry to find a common denominator. It would take me minutes to send out hundreds of e-mails requesting info.

If others received the letter, they could PM me the headers of their e-mail or request my e-mail address to forward me their letter. I will be skeptical if the person sending me headers is a new member and those e-mails sent to me will be handled separately from the others just in case someone wanted to alter the results. Include your forum name if you send me anything.

If finding the culprit is important to the people involved, I shall help, but if others don't think I should do this, speak up and say why. Would I cause more trouble? Maybe you don't think I could conduct the hunt for the guilty party competently and/or unbiased?

I shall post the results in the open for all to see who might be the common denominator but I will keep the e-mails addresses, names of the participants private unless the FBI needs the proof of the e-mails sent to me.

Viking and Patrick, based on your e-mail address you received that letter from, please PM me a list of all forums, agencies, and anti-scam sites you did business with or simply sent a letter to just to ask a question. Do not give me businesses you wrote to from other e-mail addresses you may possess. Honesty and accuracy is important and who you did business with will remain private.

Hopefully we'll catch the SOB who make threats, causes trouble, and uses people's personal info for their game. This could take a few days to get significant results. The results will be posted in the open, not behind PM's. Stay tuned.

[wiz]

Open letter to David (jinx13), J and anybody else involved in this affair.

I have made my position clear in a previous post that I am not intrested to get involved regarding the wars between Jim, Dan, Jack or anybody else for that matter.

Jinx13 (Davis) I do not appreciate to receive private messages with your ranting and all the information in it, which I happened to be able to read last night on the board posted under J. That is your problem with Dan, if you were banned and I do not care one way or another. It is nothing to do with me.

I am only here to read and post about Russian women and I have enough on my plate to deal in my private life. No I do not read all the posts and I only read what I find interesting for me.

So please let me out of any arguments and anything that it does not interest me. Thank you.

 

[Mir]

Wiz

If Jinx13 as he says is banned then he won't be able to read you open letter as it will be closed to him

[ScottinCrimea]

This all sounds like what is happening in the Middle East - bothe parties claiming they want peace but having different definitions of what peace means.  For Israel pmeans that they all live together in harmony.  For the Palestinians, the definition of peace is when all Jews are removed from Palestine.

[jb]

I read Dan's OP on this topic, nodded my head in agreement with his position, realized it did not pertain to me so I put the whole topic on my mental "ignore" list.  I have not followed this thread until now, after seeing Dan's followup announcement on the Home Page regarding "Things out of hand",,, that one was a little hard to miss.

First of all, I believe one should never bow to blackmail tactics, nor to terrorist threats.  If the blackmailer get his wish he only gets bolder the next time around.  This is apperantly the case with Jim.   He got the attention he was seeking the first time, now the demand for your time and attention is only growing.  Feeding this insatiable desire for attention will only worsen, when in fact, Jim's List is really a very small player in the overall scheme of the foreign brides game.  By demanding to be on par with CMA, when he isn't in that league, is like the under sized runt on the playground trying to imitate the bigger kids.

I say we should all just ignore Jim and his antics, if you read his list and agree with his rants, keep it to yourself.  Posting it here only feeds the furor, and I personally believe very few of this board's members really care one way or the other.  I don't harbor any ill will towards Jim, but I get irate when the neighbor's cat craps in my flower box and that's what Jim has done here, he has meddled in affairs which do not concern him.

Just tell him to get a life.

[Mir]

For Israel pmeans that they all live together in harmony.  For the Palestinians, the definition of peace is when all Jews are removed from Palestine

Yes in harmony as the Immigrants to America established with the native American population.

[William3rd]

I would STRONGLY suggest that we all stay away from the current middle east situation. There is no agreement to be had. It has nothing to do with this thread and nothing to do with Russian women.

How far  can we go?

[joty]

I would suggest to ignore Jim and his site.  He is looking for reaction.  When he does not get one he will stop.

[BillyB]

I would suggest to ignore Jim and his site.  He is looking for reaction.  When he does not get one he will stop.

Could you ignore the person who puts your personal info on a anti-scam website? Easy to say "ignore" but not easy to do if you know what's been going on.

I sent out around 150 e-mails to people who recieved the letter that encourages people to hurt Jack Bragg. Over 10% of the e-mails I sent failed, possibly meaning it's an older e-mail list that the sender used. Only two people wrote back to me. One guy sent me his number, I called and he said he didn't use any agencies, forums, or anti-scam sites, then he hung up on me. Just in case we were disconnected, I called again and his hispanic wife picked up the phone talking Espanol non stop for half a minute. I said "No hablo Espanol", then she said "No habla English". Then I said "Goodbye". The other guy who e-mailed me said he reported a couple of scammers to Jims's list but he didn't list any agencies, dating sites, or forums as I requested. I wonder how he came across any scammers? I guess too many guys out there don't like talking about their experience searching for an FSU woman.

Based on the way I sent out the canned letter, I'm sure it ended up in people's Bulk/Spam bin and possibly not read. Who knows? In conclusion, I have not come up with any evidence to find a "common denominator" between all people who received the letter that threatened Jack.

[beachcomber556]

Tell him to piss off.  The man is obviously unstable and giving in to his "demands" only legitimizes his rantings. 

Best regards,
Beachcomber 556

[catzenmouse]

Beachcomber,

 You do realize that the last post in this thread before yours was over a year ago right?

Ken