Overcoming the language barrier

[Simoni]

...I can't read anymore without responding to jb's confidence in his "opinion." Keep in mind, I read the same bull 4 years ago when I was starting out from jb.
...Don't put credence into everything he (JB) says. He tried to persuade me, but I thought he was full of bull words then on this subject, and today, I know he is full of it.

Mark, I'm glad to read that you are successfully married.  But for you to post here that it's ok to marry a woman that does not speak your language....is....well....hogwash!

What you experienced is CLEARLY the exception, and not the rule.

Anyone who decides to marry a girl that can not speak to and a girl they have known only a week in real life is REALLY taking a risk, a big risk.

Newbies--listen to this cheerleader, and you'll be on the losing team, 99 times out of 100.

[jb]

Mark,

I've already stated in another thread that I was one of your major detractors.  In your case, I ate my words.  I saluted you for making a very difficult situation work.  Once again I congratulate you.

However, and this is a huge however,,, would you in good conscience honestly recommend to the newbie freshman that he follow in your footsteps?  Knowing full well that many of the misunderstandings you have had to sort out could be avoided if there had been a common language??? 

Somehow I already know your answer and you are still as full of it now as you were 2 years ago.  We are not here to tell men how not to do things right,,, it's the other way around.   In your little attack you reveal much of your character.

[Markus]

Simoni,

So if I'm the exception to the rule, then you are saying I'm correct in what I did. If you are not, then prove me wrong. You can only take 1 side. And your only "out" is to hold on to your opinion is to say "I'm the exception to the rule." What rule? And whose rule is it? Is it yours or jb or just some other dudes that have opinions? Who owns the rule if it exists and where is it written? You cannot answer those questions without "only" opinion.

Do you know of 1 or 2 experiences that you can blame on English capability that causes you to jump on the jb bandwagon? Perhaps you do; I haven't read all the threads. If I need to go back and read something let me know, but don't waste my time with your opinion. I am living everything on this subject that you don't agree with. TOP THAT!

Mark

[Bruce]

Sohkay, I just interpreted it to start a thread about red flags for the clueless which may help prevent a train wreck in the future we may unfortunately end up reading about.

[Markus]

jb,

Thanks for your admission. That's the first time in 4 years you have admitted you were wrong to me. I won't throw my experience at you, but, before I answer, what's my answer?

Mark

[William3rd]

Simon and JB are right on the mark. What the cheerleader is not saying that over three years, they have learned to communicate.

Unfortunately, for most of the men and women, as the communications become clearer, they discover things that they dont like and either come to terms with it or opt out of the relationship.

I happen to know of dozens, if not hundreds, of examples.

Guys, it wont do much good to argue with the wrongheadedness. Just point out the flaws and hope that Pollyanna doesnt read and heed in the face of 99.99% of the advice.

[groovlstk]

Mark,

In each of your posts you emphatically point out that you proposed and married a woman that you did not share a language with, but in all this time (and it could be that I've missed it, and if so I apologize) I've never seen a timeline of how/when your wife learned English. Did she begin taking formal lesson's before or after you proposed? At what level was her English when she arrived in the US, or were you still using a translator when she arrived?

My wife has been in the US for nearly five months and we're extremely happy, but if I was granted a single wish it would be that her English was fluent when she arrived.

I applaud you and and your wife, what you accomplished is something extraordinary. But to advocate for others to follow the same path is irresponsible, particularly since these boards have a fair share of men with little dating experience looking for a quick fix.

For every woman like your wife, there are THOUSANDS of other RW here in the US who married one-week-wonders and are now trolling dating sites like www.missingheart.ru after spending a year or two with their husbands and divorcing. I know, because I dated a bunch of them and heard the same story over and over. 

[Markus]

William3rd,

Youre still looking and I was there 4 years ago. So point out the flaws sir. Step up and do it now and make your prediction. I don't know my wife now? You are way out in left field just because you don't agree with me. So, don't be a wimp and hide, point out the flaws.

Mark

[Simoni]

Simoni,

So if I'm the exception to the rule, then you are saying I'm correct in what I did. If you are not, then prove me wrong. You can only take 1 side. And your only "out" is to hold on to your opinion is to say "I'm the exception to the rule." What rule? And whose rule is it? Is it yours or jb or just some other dudes that have opinions? Who owns the rule if it exists and where is it written? You cannot answer those questions without "only" opinion.

Do you know of 1 or 2 experiences that you can blame on English capability that causes you to jump on the jb bandwagon? Perhaps you do; I haven't read all the threads. If I need to go back and read something let me know, but don't waste my time with your opinion. I am living everything on this subject that you don't agree with. TOP THAT!

Mark

Mark, I was not questioning YOUR experience.  I just said you were the exception.  Let's get real.... how many men marry a woman after only knowing her a week?  And yes, if you propose after one week you count in that category.

My stated 100 to 1 odds are real.  Just consider normal dating.  Do the personalites merge with every girl a guy dates? Of course not.  Thus, if the guy decided to marry a girl he has never talked to, has never interacted with over important issues that relate to marriage, will they be successful in marriage?  I don't think so.  

My wife Marnia just read your post, and says "you are a lucky guy."  She then pointed out the plight of her russian girlfriend here...also married to Mark.  Second marriage....the one week wonder who brought her over treated her like a slave...she did not speak a word of English....and after one year she fled him and went into a shelter.  She married Mark three years later--but only after living with him two years and learning English.

You are the exception and not the rule, Mark.  If you think guys here should marry girls they do not know and who not speak English, I still say to you...HOGWASH!

[Markus]

groovlstk,

Thanks for your question. Yes, I do skip over a lot and I try to be concise otherwise I would be typing forever. I don't post very much any more, but I'll answer your question.

My wife took an English test and placed in the level 2 English; She took 2 English classes in Russia while she was waiting to come to the U.S. She finished that semester then took level 3. She finished up to level 4 and there's another level to level 4. She was getting a little burned out so we took a semester off. I take her to school since she doesn't drive yet (our next goal), so the break was a bit of a breather for me. But, my wife is also around very many people in my family who speak English and she gets a workout on English. She began English classes about 2 months after she arrived and took 3 semesters. I'm leaving it up to her to make the decision to go back. She doesn't have a problem communicating with people outside of family with English.

Mark

[Markus]

Mark, I was not questioning YOUR experience.  I just said you were the exception.  Let's get real.... how many men marry a woman after only knowing her a week?  And yes, if you propose after one week you count in that category.

My stated 100 to 1 odds are real.  Just consider normal dating.  Do the personalites merge with every girl a guy dates? Of course not.  Thus, if the guy decided to marry a girl he has never talked to, has never interacted with over important issues that relate to marriage, will they be successful in marriage?  I don't think so. 

My wife Marnia just read your post, and says "you are a lucky guy."  She then pointed out the plight of her russian girlfriend here...also married to Mark.  Second marriage....the one week wonder who brought her over treated her like a slave...she did not speak a word of English....and after one year she fled him and went into a shelter.  She married Mark three years later--but only after living with him two years and learning English.

You are the exception and not the rule, Mark.  If you think guys here should marry girls they do not know and who not speak English, I still say to you...HOGWASH!

I have responded to people like you way too many times. Please try to keep to the subject and not create your own little agenda. If you knew how many times I have typed that statement. I get tired of dealing with know it alls who don't read and stick to facts. Since you have forgotten, the subject is "Overcoming the Language Barrier." But, you chose to change the subject by inserting your own opinions such as "Do the personalities merge with every girl a guy dates?" That's not the subject. Next: "Thus, if the guy decided to marry a girl he has never talked to, has never interacted with over important issues that relate to marriage, will they be successful in marriage? You are far from the subject of the language barrier. If you interpreted that I married a lady I have never talked to, then you are communicating to your wife in a deceiving manner about what my experience is. So your wife has a Russian friend who had a problem; I work with a guy who has been married for 17 years to a RW and he is a OneWeekWonder. So what's your point? What I am the exception to the rule to? What rule, who wrote it, where is it written, and when was it written?

Mark

[BC]

Can a man just beginning have success with a lady who doesn't speak English? Yes, but it takes a big effort.

I can imagine that 'big' is a bit of an understatement..  It took a BIG effort here with good English skills.  Think somewhere along the lines of HUGE without a common language.

I get the feeling that TOWW was able to put forth a LOT of time to begin overcoming this hurdle.  I say 'begin' because it obviously took quite a while to get to get to whatever communication level they are at today.  I wish them well but can imagine some real hurdles may lie ahead, simply delayed by the time it took to 'get there'.  That of course JMHO.

Taking into account the already 'tight' time constraints most seekers are working with, this additional burden in terms of time will likely represent a deal breaker for the wise and disaster for others.

Consider alone the choice of a rather pretentious moniker..  need I say more?

[Markus]

BC,

Ok, I change from big to very big. My buddy at work who has been married to a RW lady for 17 years tells me his wifes still asks questions about the English language. If you remember Donna from the other board, she made a good point; if we try to learn Russian, we will never be fluent. I tend to agree with her. But, for a person learning English, the same may be true.

Too bad all the illegal immigrants don't take the time to study as much as my wife. She even studied in between semesters.

But, it's not as bad as the implications of this thread imposes upon a marriage to a RW who doesn't speak good English. Frankly, if I found a RW who spoke good English, she shouldn't have an accent, but they all do. If you are fluent in English, you only have a British, Northern U.S (in 3 different regions) Midwest, and Southern, which varies between states. But, all fluent English speaking folks in the U.S. realize the dialect. Take a person who speaks English with an accent, in my opinion, they are not fluent.

Mark

[Jumper]

well i do know of a skydiver that landed and lived without a parashoot.
he is living proof that you can jump out of plane at a few thousand feet  without one.

is that an extreme version of "living proof" Mark?

seriously, i'm not going to that exteeme to debate with you.,
 simply pointing out the fallacy of the position that
*because you can live thru something and make it successful*, that its a good idea and the correct or best way to do so.


Noone is saying it *can't be done*

heck everyone  agrees  that you and oksana are living proof it can be done,,
and congratulate you, and are happy for you both!


but for all the failed marriages you point out that happen in a common language..
what do you suppose the statistics are for those who do not start with a common language.?
better or worse.? your honest opinion please.


then lets  add in the number of failed K1's
to fluent english speakers verse those with no or limited english..

wonder what that ratio is?
 i do not know,..
and i suppose its worth debating..


but this isnt about right or wrong ?
its about realistically facing the situation and its added difficulties

does it mean you should miss out on the love of your life? no

but it does mean if you are in, or contemplating ,
a relationship to someone you cannot easily communicate with..
you should st least think about the true added difficulties it brings ,
and the added dfifficulties it brings to that persons abilty to initially be comfortable in thier new enviroment.

are you really trying to say
that marrying someone from another culture
and without a common language is the *same*  for most couples,
as a more traditional situation??

or are you simply pointing out it can be done?
and so don't avoid it?

that's a big difference Mark.


personally , i liked catnmouses take on it.
far upthread..



As for myself..
 I am very glad she had a good english level, as it made life and her transition easier.
it also made our relationship stronger to be able to easily communicate (duh)
because we could work out the normal diffuiculties without the added burden of having limited common language.

i would go so far as to say if she had no english on arrival.. we likely wouldn't not be happily married today.

does that mean our commitment wasn't as strong as you and oxanas?

perhaps!

does it make my example any less valid than yours?
as a proponent of a common language?

no!
because those doling out advice on both sides of this,
 can't possibly know the couple involved,
 or thier level of commitment to each other , or to getting thru sich difficulties-


i know, without any doubt, that our abilty to easily communicate
before and after marriage,  helped us build our relationship and commitment..

it seems absurd to deny that.


can it be done without this level of communication?
well, you are living proof that, yes it can!

but i still feel complelled  when giving advice to someone new to this,
that the abilty to communicate easily is a big deal, and that it is important.

 

 

[jb]

She was getting a little burned out so we took a semester off. I take her to school since she doesn't drive yet (our next goal),

Wow~!  3 years here and she still doesn't drive yet...  Mark, my wife was driving and had her own car within 6 weeks after arrival.  Your school of thought regarding helping your wife adapt and adjust to our culture seems a bit retarded to my way of thinking.  This woman you are married to isn't a wife, she's a pet.  Have you house broken her yet?

[Markus]

jb,

I'm not amazed that you avoided my last post that challenged you.  I knew you couldn't answer it, so then you personally attack my wife and call her a pet. You are such a sore loser when your opinion is run in the ground. I am responding in a manner in which I am concealing my emotions. But, you can be assured, that Im coming to South Texas to kiss you.

Mark

[Daveman]

Mark, Perhaps what is missing here is simply a fundamental.  Rather than emphasize "I proposed in one week to a woman who did not speak my language and it WORKED", why not take the time, if you will, to write out a detailed road map for those who would take your advice.  How did you know she is Ms Right?  How exactly did your situation deviate from 'blind luck'? Commitment, however strong it may be, based on a foundation of blind luck isn't repeatable.  Of course you were committed, but how exactly can your success be copied by someone else? There have to be some serious common sense methods involved to your success otherwise it is absolute blind luck followed by hard work. 

And in the process of "overcoming the language barrier", with all the commitment in the world, it's much better to discover incompatibilities prior to marriage rather than after. So, please tell us how *exactly* did your experience differ from the high percentage who will fail?  If there was no luck involved, then your success has left clues. No if's and's or but's.  So, again, please draw us the map so that others may succeed from your approach.  If you do this, I think it will become very apparent to anyone reading whether your story is actually luck or one of a planned and well thought out approach.

Dave

[BC]

Mark,

I think it might be interesting for those even considering following in your footsteps to delve a bit into the time factor involved..  sort of 'exposing fine print'..

Seven trips in three years since you've been married and a good bit of international travel in-between seems to indicate you have a good bit of flexibility with your available time.  Certainly not the 'two weeks vacation per year' type.. 

Care to define in general terms how much 'disposable time' per year you have available?

Not to say this factor alone guarantees anything, but just to give an idea of an important background factor that obviously got your relationship to where it is today.

[Mod2]

So, don't let jb's warped opinion persuade you to thinking what you are doing is wrong with respect to English speaking ability. Consider that if you took to heart what he advocates with his confidence and blunt way of communicating, you could be missing out on the love of your life. He tried to persuade me, but I thought he was full of bull words then on this subject, and today, I know he is full of it.

Wow~!  3 years here and she still doesn't drive yet...  Mark, my wife was driving and had her own car within 6 weeks after arrival.  Your school of thought regarding helping your wife adapt and adjust to our culture seems a bit retarded to my way of thinking.  This woman you are married to isn't a wife, she's a pet.  Have you house broken her yet?

Let's keep blows above the belt please.  This is not the time to be testing ToS.

I refer both of you to :

http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=4555.msg82402#msg82402

Consider this as a very generous and final warning.

[Markus]

BC,

Where did I advocate someone following in my footsteps? I keep asking questions but no  body responds to my questions, and like jb, has to take pot shots at my wife calling her a pet. That's the lowest a man can get when he's being run into the ground with facts. You didn't do that but I'm stating it now about jb. But, go back and read my posts. I didn't advocate what you said. I only stated facts.

Now to Daveman,

You're a piece of work. You create an emphasis that is your own as if it's mine. Here's you're quote: "I proposed in one week to a woman who did not speak my language and it WORKED". You portray this quote as if I typed it. Those words are your own. I DID NOT TYPE THOSE WORDS!!!!  Please if you want to debate, be honest and don't create words for me. Just state your opinion and I will run you into the ground.

Mark

[Daveman]

Now to Daveman,

You're a piece of work. You create an emphasis that is your own as if it's mine. Here's you're quote: "I proposed in one week to a woman who did not speak my language and it WORKED". You portray this quote as if I typed it. Those words are your own. I DID NOT TYPE THOSE WORDS!!!!  My Please if you want to debate, be honest and don't create words for me. Just state your opinion and I will run you into the ground.

Mark

My apologies for putting words into your mouth... My opinion is simply I would like to hear the whole story in a level headed manner without personal insults from anyone. Let me try again:

Perhaps what is missing here is simply a fundamental.  Why not take the time, if you will, to write out a detailed road map for those who would take your advice.  How did you know she is Ms Right?  How exactly did your situation deviate from 'blind luck'? Commitment, however strong it may be, based on a foundation of blind luck isn't repeatable.  Of course you were committed, but how exactly can your success be copied by someone else? There have to be some serious common sense methods involved to your success otherwise it is absolute blind luck followed by hard work.

And in the process of "overcoming the language barrier", with all the commitment in the world, it's much better to discover incompatibilities prior to marriage rather than after. So, please tell us how *exactly* did your experience differ from the high percentage who will fail?  If there was no luck involved, then your success has left clues. No if's and's or but's.  So, again, please draw us the map so that others may succeed from your approach.  If you do this, I think it will become very apparent to anyone reading whether your story is actually luck or one of a planned and well thought out approach.

Dave

[I/O]

TOWW:  For someone who has put in the "Hard Yards" to make it work like you have and all credit for that, you have rather a phuct up way of trying to promote your view. 

Nobody ever said it can't be done, FFS I am right in the middle of making it happen right now, but it seems to me you have rather a chip on your shoulder from being hammered some time back and your only point is to come here and say well "phuc you" we did it.  I can't see much value in that.  I'm a past master of refusing advice and then comming back later and saying "phuc you" I did it.  Doesn't achieve much and it doesn't answer the question in and of itself, which in this situation is overcomming the barrier.  Sure you did it, but how?

The risks are huge in this caper and adding lack of ability to communicate just multiplies that many fold.  You know that as well as I do.  I suspect the reason you have succeeded is the same methodology as I am using and that is a huge amount of time and committment, which, in and of itself is the one and only way to overcome the language barrier.

Obviously you and yours have the committment factor to pull this off.  I believe mine and I do also, but I also realise, which I think you are failing to acknowledge, there is a large number who don't have that level of committment.  They are the ones most of us are speaking to.  What we are saying is put your ducks in a row and give yourself as much chance of success as is possible.  One can throw $10 on the spin wheel in Vegas and come away with a million, but how many come away with less than they started after a trip to "Lost Wages"? Think about that before you dole out fractured advice to people who aren't aware of all the implications. 

Bottom line is this board is about "Risk Management" and throwing caution to the wind ain't consistently good policy in Risk Management.  Just remember, "Pride she cometh before a fall", doing the victory dance is a bit premature at 3 years of marriage.  You have a long way to go yet before you can claim absolute success.

To this stage of the thread you've done little to answer the question and much more saying "phuc you" to everyone.  That ain't real smart.  Even the dumbest bastards make it to the top at times.  Look at politicians as a small example.

The challenge I set to you is this.  You have gotten this far and are claiming success and I salute your efforts, but how's about spelling out a road map that will work based on your experience of fast tracking the process.  In other words put up or shut up.

I/O

[Markus]

Daveman,

Thank you for your clarification. I feel much better now. I would answer all your questions, but it would take me a while. I could write a book. But, I'm a person who likes to stick to the subject of the thread. My answers about "My Life With My Russian Wife" are not a subject of this thread. I appreciate your curiosity. I'm amazed at how stating facts on overcoming the English barrier create such a stir. I did it; I don't understand what's the big deal. But, those who haven't done it, think it's such a failure waiting to happen. I have proved both theories. Of course, there's always the wise guy who will predict a train wreck in 3 years. Heck, I could predict a trainwreck on a lot American marriages, and they lived together before they were married!.

Someday, I will explain all. I can just say that I thought I knew what I was doing from the beginning, I hoped I knew what I was doing in the beginning, and I hope I know what I'm doing in the future. It all boils down to how a man treats a lady. She's the boss and I love it.

Mark

[BC]

BC,

Where did I advocate someone following in my footsteps? I keep asking questions but no  body responds to my questions,

Mark,

Where did I say you advocated someone following in your footsteps?

Boy, you seem to be quite defensive and quite frankly elusive, even to straightforward questions.. certainly not responses that would lend to establishing credibility, or contributions that provide helpful insight other than (paraphrasing) 'I did it'.

The best questions are the toughest...

The best answers are neither defensive or offensive..

[jb]

Wow~! Ain't this guy a piece of work?

TOWW, you have much to learn,,, I suspect your own wife is still much of a mystery to you. 



Note:
Mod 2, please refer back up thread to see who landed the first blow, and see if it was above or below the belt.  I don't think it was me.