An AW thoughts on me, AJ, KenC, Rvwind and some of you guys

[I/O]

I have to say that I am firmly in the camp of those who believe that the choice about child rearing, work and the balance of those two are, ultimately, for women to make, ideally in concert with their life partner.

With all due respect to the poster, this rather reads as the product of someone who has been firmly flattened by the "Feminazi" steamroller.  Ultimately?  No way in the world...!!! If SHE wants to make that decision, that is fine, but SHE should make that decision AND articulate it LONG before she is involved seriously with a partner. 

This, IMO and from previous experience is very much a decision for the COUPLE to make and if either partner's wishes are heavily discounted, then there is trouble not far away.

All of this comes from the narrow thinking that economic or career equality is the absolute and only meaning of equality.  Yep, I am firmly in the camp (Whichever that camp is) which doesn't swallow this "Pander to the PC voices" type of thinking. 

the faux 'traditional' role promulgated by many male posters.

My question would be, what is wrong with that?  BTW I am more than happy for mine to have a career, but when it comes to the first needs of a child in the early stages, she can provide for those direct needs much better than I can.  For one thing, I wasn't born with tits.

I/O
 

[Gator]

Hi Andrew,

Good to see you fly in for a visit.

Gator, it may be that the US needs more PEOPLE to look after kids at home. There is no good reason why it should be women who have that privilege to themselves!.

There are in fact many men who elect to stay home and take care of Baby.  Mama can have her milk pumped and Papa can feed Baby from a bottle.  I have met one such man, and he is one of those idealistic dreamers who never accomplishes much.  Maybe rearing a child will fulfill him.  He did complain that he was not readily accepted into the network of mothers and that he felt socially isolated.  Is that good for the child?  If not the best, I would still think it better than a series of live-in nannies and day-care centers.

I/O makes a valid point about the couple deciding, not just the woman.  This should be discussed before marriage; however, people change.  If they disagree, they can divorce.

[andrewfi]

There is only one form of equality, that is equality of opportunity. Nothing else counts.
This means that in a relationship between man and woman there is just about one thing that seperates men from women: only one of them gives birth. It is this that makes the ultimate choices as to disposition of the rearing of the kids the woman's.

Yes, as I noted the choices about how to handle such issues as family are ideally discussed at an early stage but this is somewhat idealistic and nieve when there is such a large gulf in understanding and experience (on both sides) - as shown well in these posts.
As I noted, choices made in Russia are not really valid in the USA for the simple reason that the new experience is vastly different. It would be foolish to expect your inamorata to be able to make an informed choice from her home in Ufa about her future life in the USA. The problem is that the onus for understanding this falls to the man, who often, as we see, does not even understand why there MIGHT be a problem!

Living, as most of you do, in the US, there are some things that are hard to comprehend, the differences in expectation and experience that underpins early choices is but a small thing. For me as a European who has spent a fair chunk of life in a Nordic environment where women DO have expectations of equality that would be only dreamt of by most of your sisters, mothers and daughters I sometimes forget just how far behind the US is. So, for that reason it is harder to be a househusband than in Finland, Sweden or Denmark. But that does not lessen the right of women, and men, to expect to fulfill their chosen roles.
From my perspective, I see very much of what you guys claim to want as being axiomatic of a reduction in your life partner's ability to enjoy equality of opportunity and that IS a bad thing.
That is why as a red blooded man I can read the article presented upthread and see it in a somewhat different and less threatening light. I already accept and offer women the equality and the ability to chse thier path and role.

[andrewfi]

Scott, you misread my words. I chose them carefully so as to be accurate.
It is true that in many cases, in the US, woman earn almost as much, for the same work, as men. But on average women earn only about 75% as much as men do. The reason is that women are forced by dint of expectation and practice to work in jobs that offer lower remuneration than  a man of equal ability would be performing.
In Russia the situation is much worse, women DO earn significantly less for the same work and also work in jobs below their capacity.
If one does not understand these simple differences, how can one then discuss the complex outcomes?
How can one understand the motivations of people if one does not understand the drivers?

This is not propaganda, after all, I have no dog in the fight! It is a simple statment of fact. You can verify the numbers, I'd guess from the DoL or mabe even the census bureau, the latter has figures for Russian censuses as well, making comparison, if the data is collated, easy.

[Gator]

Hi Andrew,

It took you only two posts in your visit here to take a sweeping swing at America.

While America is behind the Nordic countries, we have come a long way since 1994.  Why do I say 1994?  Your statistic of 75% pay disparity is actually very close to the true figure of 74% reported by the US Bureau of Labor for 1994 (http://stats.bls.gov/).

[I/O]

Hi Andrew,

It took you only two posts in your visit here to take a sweeping swing at America.

While America is behind the Nordic countries, we have come a long way since 1994.  Why do I say 1994?  Your statistic of 75% pay disparity is actually very close to the true figure of 74% reported by the US Bureau of Labor for 1994 (http://stats.bls.gov/).

Gator Seems we backward Non European peoples need to reassess our thinking as I note it is currently Bad.  Ever notice how the flow of migration is towards the mentioned Non European country/s and not the other way around?

I/O

[Rvrwind]

It took you only two posts in your visit here to take a sweeping swing at America.

Sorry guys but I don't see it as taking a swing at America or the west.
Andrew, like myself & Phil have lived in Russia or Eastern Europe if you prefer for a number of years. There are many thngs culturaly that westeners will never understand. That is not a derogatory statement but a statement of fact.
As westerners we were raised differently, we were taught differently & we grew up with much different morals than the European culture is noted for. It has taken me several years to identify some of them even being immersed in the culture. Some are blatantly obvious, some are not.
Just because they are different does not make it a bad thing, they are just different & one has to understand that to understand that those differences change the rules of engagement.
What most of you see is very little from having your RW in the west. Her attitudes & morals have shocked some of you, I know, I've read about it.But what you see in her is very little as she is adjusting to your lifestyle & your country & your morals. But live here, not for a month or six months but years. Absorb the culture literally, observe & learn their ways & I am here to tell you that you will find yourself questining your own culture & values on many occaisions. That isn't to say that we change them we just ask more questions & notice the differences that someone who has not lived here will ever notice.
I continually critisize my own country for its failings but at the same time I can see the falings of Russia as well. If I could take the best of both countries & put them together in one it would be a place everybody would want to be, however I can't & niether can you or Andrew. So it is best to accept the diffeences for what they are, diferences & nothing more.
Personally I found more truth in her article than I did fabrications. That is just the way it is. She was givng basically her opinion of how she see the men in this process & from my point of veiw, being in he business, she wasn't far off the mark. A little slanted to the negative & less positive but still & all not far off.
JMHO

[andrewfi]

Gator, I was not 'taking a sweeping swing at America' although the increased sensitivity to any possible criticism is, as always, an interesting and ongoing commentary of the travails faced by those living in the 'Land of the Free'.

If you have researched more up to date figures then perhaps you might share them. If not then we simply need to take the figure as indicative and we can move on to a greater understanding of the limits of our comprehension! Rather than making vain attempts to criticise that which you know to be true you might better compliment me for my recall and handle of the numbers that illustrate the points made.

In fact, as long as we know and accept that there is a significant difference between the gender wage gap in Russia and the US then we need know no more. Of course, if the US has magically improved these last few years then the point I made is made even more strongly.
If the circumstances under which a forced choice are made are different from the environment in which the consequences of that choice must be experienced then it is likely that the person making that choice wil seek to change his/her situation for the better!
In pointing this out one is hardly making a criticism of the people of the Untied States but simply stating what, to most, would be blindingly obvious!
Perhaps it is this lack of ability to see one's own context (a normal situation) is what leads to the effusive and defensive demonstrations of disdain toward pieces like that referenced above. From the outside looking inward and even from the inside, with objective review, one can understand that the piece was not unfair, not inaccurate and, in the context of what posters here and elsewhere have noted, was actually a pretty light ride.

I/O, you might want to reasses your fallacious statement!
Migration for marriage into the EU countries from the FSU is significantly higher than that into the US. In fact, Russia is one of the most migrated into countries in the world, with a significantly larger relative ingress than the US.

[I/O]

I/O, you might want to reasses your fallacious statement!
Migration for marriage into the EU countries from the FSU is significantly higher than that into the US. In fact, Russia is one of the most migrated into countries in the world, with a significantly larger relative ingress than the US.

I wasn't limiting my migration remark to the FSU.  The fact remains that there is and has been for the last few hundred years, a greater flow off the European continent to places such as the Americas, New Zealand and Australia than the other way around.  The comment is simply an observation of fact.

I actually don't hold much arguement with the article posted upthread in many ways, but I do smile to myself at these comments about USA and similar countries being "So far behind".  From several visits to various European and Eastern European countries I have been rather left with the impression that a goodly number of the smarter people got out of there over the last few hundred years and continue to do so, thus the USA and a few others have done rather well by importing that intelligence and continue to prosper.

BTW I am quite aware of the immigration/migration numbers regarding Russia.  The last somewhat "Credible" data I saw indicated a net differencial (Outflow from Russia) of something in the order of 30 000 per year, miniscule in the larger scheme of matters and a significant slowdown over the most recent years.     

The liberally thinking, progressive, politically correct will always push the view that anyone who doesn't concur is backward.  They will also regard any other thinking as "Bad" and dismiss the conservatives with a cursory academic glance. Such is life, each to his own.  The progressives will continue to wallow in the dream of a future including their dearly held view of total equality, which in reality hasn't occured in the past and probably won't in the future.   What's the relevance?  Again it interests me that the "Often criticised conservatives" seem to appear in the larger percentages among those who have actually succeeded in this pursuit of a foreign partner.

I will never have much patience with the so called progressives and they certainly will never have much respect for my conservatisim, neither side is going to change anytime soon, thus henceforth we shall simply need to "Agree to disagree". Nevertheless, the progressives might like to ask themselves the question regarding their version of advancement, what have they practically achieved for the betterment of all?

I/O 

[jb]

Mary Jo Kopechne was not available to answer this question.

[I/O]

Mary Jo Kopechne was not available to answer this question.

  Could only come from an "Oil man"

I/O

[TigerPaws]

Hello all,

 For too many reasons most of which are that we have been sailing the Caribbean then the Mediterranean and now back in the Caribbean I have not been able to read the board let alone post. But we are in Georgetown Bahamas with a good internet connection and after reading the article and comments I had to chime in.

 The author is unquestionably biased towards the AW point of view with a distinct feminist slant, and as was posted earlier if the article was truly balanced then most likely it would have never been published. KenC (among others) was singled out for his 50's view of what family and marriage should be. So what? If KenC and others (myself included) want something different than what the popular media and the feminists believe we should have in a relationship that is our choice as long as we (and our ladies) are happy.

 What seems to elude the author (or more likely was ignored completely) is the successes, those couples like KenC, myself, Dan and many others but of course that would not be in line with the authors preconceived beliefs. There is little anyone can do to dispel people like the author from believing and espousing what BS they want because no one will publish a similar article about men seeking foreign brides written in a positive light. 

 Like it or not we are our own support group and that is not likely going to change anytime soon.

[KenC]

Welcome back Tigerpaws!  Nice photos as always.
KenC

[TigerPaws]

Thank you KenC,

 We will be staying in Georgetown for the next month or so (we like it here) then we will be moving further south.

Georgetown marina

[Gator]

Andrew,

Cheers for recalling the number, and jeers for not recognizing that the USA has made some significant advances.  Sexual discrimination is not tolerated in the workplace and can have serious consequences for the company (a huge case involving Walmart is pending).  Although there are still some issues such as insurance premiums and pregnancy, we are not far behind the Nordic models.

You and I agree on many aspects of the Gina paper, yet when you sneak in a distorted and not very relevant jab at the USA, it makes your thesis seem unbalanced (when in reality we agree on almost everything else).

I wrote initially that Gina omitted to mention all the happy marriages.  That makes her research seem unbalanced (as with your post).

[Gator]

Hi TigerPaws,

Georgetown is a great place to moor for a month.  Is that photographer still working when you enter the bay – the guy who whips around in a small boat by himself, standing on one foot to take a photo of your boat with the other foot working the outboard motor?

[jb]

Yes, America has made some strides in the direction of sexual equality in the workplace.  In fact, most companies now have "Human Resources" departments, staffed mostly by women professionals to ensure against sexual discrimination.  All the jobs which are not filled from within the company ranks are generally posted on company websites or local newspapers, listing job descriptions and required qualifications, along with salary expectations for the position.  So, regardless of who applies for the position, be it a man or a woman, the salary and hiring criteria is known up front.  This is especially true in professional positions and is getting more and more common for staff positions.   An example of this was when my wife applied for her teaching position at the local college, she knew before her interview what the number of classroom hours would be, what number of office hours were required, and what her salary would be.  Had a man been selected for the job he would have been paid exactly the same, not a penny more.

That's equality.

[WmGO]

"...steamrolled by feminazi..." that is funny. It is unfortuantely true that many WM have been emasculated by the feminist agenda.

"The liberal thinking, progressive, politically correct will always push the view that anyone who doesn't concur is backward." True.

The Scandinavian countries have the world's highest divorce, abortion and suicide rates, and I also believe highest alchoholism rates. That is what makes them "ahead" of the U.S. Yes, socialism and "equality" have done wonders there. Such politics is the answer to all of the world's problems. It creates utopia. 

[BillyB]

Andrew, Is there anything positive you can say about the U.S? Well over 5000 posts on RW forums and you can't think or speak of a thing that makes America successful?'

I remember you said this and added your usual swipe on America: "In Estonia, at least, where divorce rates are high, highest in the region I understand at 3.2 per 1000 (Russia 3.96, USA 4.95) it sometimes seems that infidelity is a national sport. It makes me wonder what you Americans are thinking of given your obvious inability to manage to stay married (or is it love of marriages?) Of course, infidelity is not always a reason for divorce, particularly not here!"

But you failed to list the entire facts such as in this UN study.
http://encarta.msn.com/media_701500518/marriage_and_divorce_rates.html

In reality,
Americans have 8.2 marraiges per 1000 to 4.19 divorces per 1000 for a 51% divorce to marriage ratio for the study
Russians have a 6.2 marriages per 1000 to 3.65 divorces per 1000 for a 59% divorce to marriage ratio for the study
Estonians have a 4.0 marriages per 1000 to 3.09 divorces per 1000 for a 77% divorce to marriage ratio for the study.

Your misleading statistics show the country you're living in, Estonia as having a lower divorce per 1000 people than Russia or America but they have a low amount of marriage per 1000 people making their divorce percentages high. Instead of saying Americans have an inability to stay married, you should be saying Americans value the institution of marriage more than any country except Mauritius.

Your failure to disclose facts makes all your opinions American related suspect. Instead of acknowledging your bias, you in turn frequently tell people they have a comprehension problem. You are a smart man Andrew in many ways. Too bad you use your talent for selfish reasons. I know you have changed the view of some simple minded Americans successfully on forums with your anti-American rhetoric. They now wake up everyday thinking what a F'd up place they live in.

[andrewfi]

Billy, the day you pay me for my posts is the day that I will treat them as work. I was making a clear point and your figures do not alter it. If you reread my post you will see exactly that I am aware of where I live and the cultural issue therein. As to positive points, there have been more than a few, but given your jaundiced view you would not find them and of course almost every 'criticism' is not that at all. You are a fine example of American in the mass, as you have been shaped over the past half decade. (and that is not a criticism but a sad observation).

Gator, please reread what I wrote and understand this: the greater the difference between the experience of a person in the US and, for example, Russia the greater the degree to which my point is emphasised: The greater the likelihood that a forced choice made from the experience and background in one place will need to be updated to account for new conditions. If it is hard to understand this concept then take that as a swipe against the US, but you hit yourself, not I!

I/O, whilst you may wish to appear less wrong by broadening your argument those of us for whom English is a first language know the context of the discussion. However your recall may be excellent but it is, here, wrong. Over the past umptyump years there has been a net inflow of population into Russia against a declining population overall. Check and get back to me. I won't give you the reference, the truth is out there and it has pictures.
As to the migration pattern over the past two centuries, well, again, not really what we were discussing but yes, you got me---the potato famine was a bugger.
Of course with recall as faultless as yours is I am not surprised by your impressions.

jb, I do not dispute that improvements have been made in the US (although it might seem from the tenor of your words that you do not see it entirely that way), but I think the points  made are valid and stand, as borne testament by the estimable Gator and his anecdote. Until somebody shows me more  up to date figures than his, I think we can safely infer that I was correct. Bear in mind that the difference to which I referred is not about the rate for the job but the job itself, this is a structural issue and has nothing to do with equal pay for equal work, this is about how people work and the reasons why women earn less then men, on average, even if they earn the same rate for the same job.

Anyway guys, what you are all doing is arguing about the wrong things. Trying to accuse me of that which is palpably untrue is simply a deflection from the unpalatable truth facing you. Most of you are considered by those who come across you as not particularly wholesome. That is the message of the article and nobody has written anything that would change anybody's opinion in that regard one iota.
I don't recall anyone criticising you guys for wanting what you want, we were being observed and commented upon. The criticism here is largely self levelled.
(of course all of you guys are paragons and anyone saying otherwise simply does not know anything at all)

Have a good evening and I hope you find that whch you seek and that it is that which you want.

[timothe]

Andrew, I must be missing something because I don't see where women are denied opportunity in the USA.  I can't think of a single example of this.  Not one.  Can you please clarify the statement where you see the USA as being "backward" in comparison to Nordic countries in the arena of opportunity for women?

In regards to the article, I think there is a general preconception that the pursuit of an FSU woman is at least partially motivated by the desire of the man to use economic deficiency to obtain more control than otherwise possible.  I don't disagree with this preconception, actually, but I challenge the notion that it's application applies to such a small sample of men/women.  Women who marry in part to obtain economic security is normal behavior because safety and security are most important to women.  Men who have been successful financially find younger and more beautiful women to accompany them and these men don't usually have any problem finding a willing partner. 

(in other news, grass is green and water is wet)

In other words, if Donald Trump walks in with a beautiful young wife, nobody assumes bad morals on his part.  But because middle-class men seek out beautiful women in poor countries, these men are depraved?

I think not.     

[ScottinCrimea]

Just like the rest of the animal world, we all use what we have to attract a mate.  If women want financial security and men want a nice physical specimen, what's wrong with that?  They will each use what they have to attract what they want.  This doesn't always mean that they will ultimately be happy when they get what they want, but it also doesn't mean that they will ultimately be dissatisfied, either.  Hey, if all other things being equal I can have a better looking wife by looking in the FSU, more power to me.  And for those of you who are about to get your panties all in a bunch, remember I said, "all other things being equal".

[I/O]

Viewers of the gallery, it now seems we are all much the wiser.  Being one of the "Backward, Bad thinking, Unwholesome, Non European Inferior, Poor Understanders of English" I can only continue to be surprised by the wonderful enlightenment so generously bestowed upon us from the North East.

What "The Man" so seriously failed to grasp was the fact that nobody here really condemned the article entirely.  Kinda basic sort of fact for someone so well practiced in spruking to miss.  But then again, we shouldn't be surprised because with all the wonderful advancement he no doubt enjoys, comes medical advancement and I notice that some North Europeans are yet again in front in one particular area, that is Colonoscopies.  We backward folk still use electronic gadgets to perform this task whilst some North Europeans have a much more "Enlightened" method.  Check the illustration below.

I/O

[BillyB]

Anyway guys, what you are all doing is arguing about the wrong things. Trying to accuse me of that which is palpably untrue is simply a deflection from the unpalatable truth facing you.

I guess you've got the truth but withhold the evidence so people are forced to accept your words. Let's see the truth according to the UN pertaining to gender related equality.

http://hdr.undp.org/hdr2006/statistics/documents/gdi2004.pdf

Is it true America is way behind Nordic countries when it comes to gender related equality as Andrew implies?

Here are the Nordic and backward countires(US and Australia) rankings in the world. Rank out of 177 countries/regions.

Norway #1 at .962
Iceland #2 at .958
Australia #3 at .956
Sweden #5 at .949
America #8 at .946
Finland #11 at .943
Denmark #15 at .940
UK #18 at .938(birthplace of Andrew)
Estonia #40 at .856(current residence of Andrew)

I guess "way behind" to Andrew means America is behind 60% of the Nordic countries although they are ahead of 40% of the Nordic countries. Even though America is fractions behind some Nordic countries, using Andrew's "blown out of proportion" type comments with a touch of insult, I shall state the UK, Estonia and European Union must be in the stone ages compared to America when it comes to gender related equality.

Well Andrew, do you think we're still blind and have reading comprehension problems? It may be hard for you to comprehend, but somebody is doing something right in nations you consider backward and way behind.

[Bruno]

when it comes to gender related equality.

About gender equality... some more statistic...

- Percentage of women agreeing with the statement - "Women do have equal rights"

#1       Australia:      25%       
#2      Netherlands:    20%      
#3      Switzerland:    14%      
#4      Belgium:    12%      
#5      United Kingdom:    9%      
#6      United States:    8%      
#7      Canada:    8%      
#8      Germany:    7% 

- Percentage of women (F) agreeing with the statement - "Women should have equal rights"

#1       Netherlands:      80%       
#2      Australia:    77%      
#3      United Kingdom:    73%      
#4      Belgium:    70%      
#5      Germany:    70%      
#6      Canada:    70%      
#7      United States:    62%      
#8      Switzerland:    39%      
#9      Japan:    21% 

- Percentage of women agreeing with the statement - "Women are in a better position than their grandmothers"

#1       Japan:      96%       
#2      Australia:    95%      
#3      Germany:    94%      
#4      United States:    93%      
#5      Canada:    93%      
#6      United Kingdom:    93%      
#7      Switzerland:    92%      
#8      Netherlands:    92%      
#9      Belgium:    90%