An AW thoughts on me, AJ, KenC, Rvwind and some of you guys

[Maxx2]

Besides me there is mention of AJ, KenC and some of you guys from this writer from the Virginia Women's Center. Since she got so many of the details wrong about my brief marriage, intentions, thoughts etc. I am sure she got it wrong abot KenC wanting a 50's housewife. Of course Dan's chosen photos for his "Goodwife" site might say that about him...  

Do any you guys remember a AW named Gina saying she was doing research on this business?  



To have and to hold down.

Source: Iris: A Journal About Women

Publication Date: 03/22/2005

Author: Welch, Gina


COPYRIGHT 2005 The Rector and Visitors of The University of Virginia, on Behalf of the University of Virginia Women's Center

Matchmaker, Matchmaker,




   Plan me no plans
   I'm in no rush
   Maybe I've learned
   Playing with matches
   A girl can get burned
   So,
   Bring me no ring
   Groom me no groom
   Find me no find
   Catch me no catch
   Unless he's a matchless match.
  
--Chava, Hodel, and Tzeitel in Fiddler on
the Roof


Maxx, a 51-year-old business owner in Minneapolis, is seeking a nice Russian bride--again. Having recently divorced his first Russian wife, he posts on the forum boards of Russian Women Guide (www.rwguide.com), a Web site erected in 1998 that is part social club, part navigation manual for men sifting through hundreds of online mail-order bride (MOB) agencies. Maxx uses a George Bernard Shaw quote as his posting signature: "If you can't get rid of the skeleton in your closet, you'd best teach it to dance." As his signature suggests, Maxx is disarmingly frank about his personal life, warts and all. On the RWGuide forums, which boasts about 7,000 members and climbing, he is a king for his candor, even though on the Web site Russian Women Discussion he calls himself "The Master of Disaster." The RWGuide thread he began in the fall of 2003 documenting his messy divorce from the ex he calls "Elvira" racked up 16,464 views before it was shut down a year and a half later. For a bit of perspective, the most popular threads usually top off at 2,000 views. In Maxx's initial post on this thread--entitled "Divorcing my RW wife" [see acronym key]--be described the following: when he first flew to Russia to meet "Elvira," then a potential wife he found via an online MOB agency, she seemed to love him deeply. Once back in the United States, Maxx procured a K-1 Fiance Visa to get Elvira and her 7-year-old son to move to the United States. When Elvira and her son arrived, Maxx claims she became suddenly cold, refusing to share a bed with him. He writes, "Her eyes were filed (1) with hate and she told me she would never sleep with me." After several months (unaccounted for in Maxx's narrative), Elvira fled to a shelter for battered women and he filed for divorce. Maxx claims Elvira trumped up the domestic violence charges (domestic violence is commonly abbreviated as DV on the boards) to gain leverage in the divorce proceedings. The flood of posts written in response to Maxx's are bound by a singular tenor: empathy.

Some RWGuide members simply wish Maxx well and voice hope that he emerges ass and wallet intact. Some offer him legal advice. Some thank him for his story and suggest making it a 'mustread' cautionary tale for new RWGuide users. And some share stories of their own: MikeV copped to "cruel and inhuman" treatment while seeking an annulment from his Russian wife. Rvrwind advised, "Seems to me if you gave her $5000.00 cash & a plane ticket home she would probably jump on it. That's how I got rid of my ex, paid her off & she signed off on everything & no Lawyers." AJ277 joked "no divorce, only boating accidents."

Disgruntled Grooms

Tales of 'false' domestic violence accusations and 'self-inflicted' wounds abound on RWGuide, and on similar MOB boards: www.planet-love.com (RWGuide's uncouth cousin), www.russianwomendiscussion.com (a kind of no-frills RWGuide), www.global7network.com (more MOB agency than discussion forum), and www.russianwomenabroad.com (a Web site intended to serve Russian women living away from their home country, though American men rule the English-language message boards). Before trying to comprehend the MOB industry, it helps to try understanding the men on these boards, as they create the demand.

The INS estimated in 1999 that 4,000 to 6,000 men marry MOBs every year. Most of the MOB men are ideologically conservative, middle-aged, middle-class, and white. They bristle at being called pathetic--they assert that they're perfectly attractive, perfectly stable, and they damn well have the power to attract women. But they're looking for love overseas primarily because they have had it with American women (called AW on the forum boards). The subject of American women inspires such powerful venom that RWGuide removed one thread on the topic because it became too vicious.

So what is it about American women these men find so culturally universal, so rejectable, so hateful? Many MOB men claim feminism engendered the ruination of the American woman's character. They trade stories of being abandoned or made to feel worthless by women who insist on doing everything themselves. They say American women demand too much, as bradleyt does in his 2004 RWGuide post on a thread entitled "An American Alternative": "American women want everything in a relationship to be damn near perfect, if it isn't perfect, that are just as happy to be at home alone with the cat. I don't think they try at relationships anymore, which isn't going to make one work." They express aggravation about women carrying heavy things, wearing pants, wanting to work. Dr. Scott writes in a letter to "Your Bride Is in the Mail" author and MOB industry advocate Gary Clark on planet-love, American women want to be "liberated yet at the same time be pampered and treated like a lady. Unfortunately you cannot have your cake and eat it too." There are dozens of complaints about women striving for their own sexual satisfaction without consideration for a man's pleasure. They believe that feminism makes women want to "become men," rendering men extraneous. As H.C. puts it on planet-love, many of these men believe American women are "superficial and have an attitude problem." The attitude problem that comes up again and again on these boards seems to have something to do with criticism these men feel American women level at them. What lurks behind the bald rage of posts like moparman's, who wrote on RWGuide in late 2004, "NO GROUP OF WOMEN COMPLAIN MORE, LOUDER, AND FOR THE MOST PART UNNECESSARILY THAN AMERICAN WOMEN," is an intense frustration about feeling unappreciated.

Perhaps all this bile over what these men don't want in a woman makes it fairly obvious what they crave: submissiveness. Indeed, the forum boards are littered with allusions to the gender roles of the 1950s and a woman "knowing her place." In 2002, KenC wrote on the forum board s of planet-love, "[In the 1950s] everyone understood that your Dad was 'head of the house' and your Mom was NOT ashamed to be a 'housewife.' Their roles were not confused as they are in today's society." Many of these men are practically atavistic in their pursuit of a woman who will demurely defer to them, whose sole heart's desire is domestic bliss.

The buzz word on the boards is 'femininity' (many MOB men argue this is the opposite of feminist), which for the MOB man encompasses not only the submissive qualities they find lacking in American women, but also a specific aesthetic: slender, made-up, and dressed sexy. On the forum boards, men trade jokes about American women being too fat to date, as Wayne1 did on planet-love in 2002: "Ya know I honestly believe there are enough good looking american women in this country. They are just hiding under their fat."

And of course, many a MOB man relishes the domination inherent in having a wife who is living on his turf, by his laws, in his language. Michael, a client of Anastasia Russian Brides, explains his attraction to his fiance Tanya: "Her hesitant English and sweet innocence and ignorance of most things 'American' is very appealing." The belief that foreign women are more 'traditional' also leads many MOB men to believe divorce will be an anathema to their brides--as JohnG (who thinks all women are "pains in the a**es") writes on Russian Women Discussion, "They will stay with their husbands and work it out much longer than their american counterparts; they are not so quick to throw it all away and file for divorce. They tough it out."

But something else binds these men, and in this commonality lies real menace. These men fundamentally mistrust women. American women, they believe, will cheat and lie and heartlessly abandon them. And perhaps, as Gary Clark writes on planet-love, filing "false sex abuse charges against him to force him out of his home and family." MOB men bear the scars of bad relationships with American women--and though they're hopeful Russian women will be different, they can't seem to shake their suspicion that all women are up to no good.

The forum boards heave with paranoia about being taken for a ride by Russian women. In response to one planet-love user's suggestion that all customers own up to exploiting Russian women, WmGo writes, "The reality is that the overwhelming majority of the 'exploitation,' perhaps 85% to 95% is the other way around, id est, FSUW and 'agencies' exploiting Western men for financial gain." Despite the fact that Russian women must undergo a background check in order to obtain a visa, men seeking mail-order brides swap tips on how to spot a scammer (the most commonly repeated signals: if a woman looks too good in her profile picture, if she responds to emails too quickly, or if she requests money for an internet connection, visa, or plane ticket). There are innumerable threads on RWGuide and planet-love detailing men's fears that prospective MOBs are ill-intentioned, and dozens of Web sites serve exclusively as bulletin boards where men post the pictures and names of women they suspect as scammers.

This suspicion of women most notably extends to the extensive, jittery discussions about Russian women filing "false" domestic violence charges as a green card shortcut: under the Violence Against Women Act (VAWA) of 1994, the spouses and children of legal U.S. citizens may self-petition for green cards in cases of proven abuse. One must concede that there surely are cases here and there where the Russian woman cries wolf to take advantage of the VAWA provision; after all, according to an unscientific poll on Russian Women Abroad, 90 percent of MOBs admit to not loving their American mates before marriage. But on the message boards the rule seems to be to suspect the Russian woman before the American man. Though this practice protects scam victims, it allows violent perpetrators to sneak under the 'victim' umbrella as well. For example, Marvin Dale Bredemeier of Denver, who is currently serving 37 years to life for six counts of sexual assault against his Russian wife as well as recently adding 30 for attempting to arrange her murder from inside prison, claims his wife concocted the whole story "as part of an immigration scam so she could divorce him and remain in the country." (2) Though witnesses and tape recordings suggest quite a different scenario, Bredemeier (a pizza delivery man and bug exterminator who had masqueraded as a computer technician) plays the card so often seen on MOB boards--'I'm just a man looking for love and this woman took advantage of my tenderness.'

Beyond the suggestion that domestic violence charges are plainly false, many MOB men pass around the idea that BubbaGump promotes on planet-love: "Women seem to love to push our buttons to get us angry. I think that triggers a lot of men to abuse their wives. They should just leave us alone a while or just stay quiet and go for a walk with us until things cool off." And beyond the Blame-The-Victim tack, there's the increasingly popular She-Hit-Me-First. In his lengthy "Divorcing My RW Wife" post on RWGuide, Maxx pastes in an article from Fathering Magazine (an uber-conservative bulwark against 'anti-male' feminism) which alleges that the VAWA--by necessitating domestic violence helplines, shelters, and education for judges and social workers--exaggerates the problem of domestic violence, discriminates against men, and ignores the fact that "women strike the first blow in fifty-three per cent and 'can't remember' in another 5 percent of incidents of family violence." When women report being abused, these men suggest, it's usually an invention. One wonders what these men are talking about considering that in the United States more than three women are murdered by their husbands or boyfriends every day. (3)

Emergency Brides

That MOB agencies peddle Russian women to these men is no surprise. Since the collapse of the Soviet Union, Russians have experienced a spike in poverty, violence, drug abuse and alcoholism, and unemployment. Russian women suffer these phenomena disproportionately. Women's salaries, on average, are only 43 percent of men's (4) and in some regions women comprise 85 percent of the unemployed, all despite the fact that 47 percent of Russian women (as compared to 34 percent of Russian men) have completed higher degrees. (5) There are 88 men for every 100 Russian women, and the life expectancy for Russian women is 13 years older than for men--73 and 60, respectively. (6) No legislation exists in Russia to protect women from domestic violence, despite the fact that, according to Freedom House (an organization founded by Eleanor Roosevelt to promote democracy and peace) an estimated 15,000 Russian women are murdered each year in domestic disputes. For many Russian women, the future is bleak. So maybe it isn't any wonder that an estimated 92,000 Russian and Ukrainian women annually post personals with around 500 different MOB Web sites. (7) Immigration is no small commitment, nor is it an easy task.

Once in the United States, most MOBs are isolated and wholly reliant upon their husbands, making visits home extremely rare. And the green card process is a long one--a Fiance Visa will allow a woman to stay in the United States for three months, and then she must marry or go home. After six months of marriage, the couple must interview with the INS to prove their marriage's legitimacy, and then after another two years of marriage a green card is issued. Becoming a MOB is no quick fix for down and out Russian women--it is an act of desperation. That so many MOBs are highly educated belies their professed desires to be domestic: these women are surely seeking a more fulfilling life and more freedom--not less.

Matchmaker, Matchmaker

Mail-order bride agencies know all this, and play up the severity of the Russian state of affairs to carve open space for heroes; MOB customers buy the story to convince themselves they aren't bad people for wanting the women. According to the Web site of MOB agency A Special Lady, Russian women are "used to" Russian men who are "abusive and disrespectful" and so will be "happy and grateful" with whatever an American man can offer; in fact, "their idea of the perfect man is someone with a stable job who is not an alcoholic ... Looks, income, and material things are not so important to them."

Lowballing is incredibly common--the agencies and message boards suggest Russia is peopled by criminal, unfaithful, vodka-swilling men who are vastly outnumbered by gorgeous damsels-in-distress who only want a safe home where they can raise children and serve their provider. For many American men, this desperation means that women who are normally out of their league are now within reach. MOB agencies would have clients believe Woody Allen's credo here--80 percent of success is just showing up.

The procedure for most of these agencies goes like this: a man sorts through the online profiles of thousands of women (an estimated 62,000 Russian and 30,000 Ukrainian women are registered with these sites). A typical profile includes the woman's first name, location, age, height, weigh, eye color, hair color, zodiac sign, hobbies, education and occupation, and, usually in limited English, a short personal statement and a description of the type of man she is seeking. The personal statements usually run as follows, though this sample is on the more direct (and articulate) end of the spectrum: "I have big hope in my heart to find my big and only love. I'm not feminist at all--I admit my defeat before male sex in inability to make career or reach high social status. But I can cook very well, can create comfort and coziness at home, and give birth and raise child." ( The partner description is generally some iteration of the following: "I see my future husband as a kind, clever, reliable, sexy, and sociable man who loves children and animals." (9) Though many of these women are educated professionals, their often limited English contributes to the impression that they're simple-minded with only basic needs and interests. Imagine writing a description of yourself in a language you have only a passing knowledge of--you, too, might profess to like animals and walks on the beach.

A posed photograph or two in which the women often wear revealing outfits often accompanies this information, as do links to pages where a user can send the woman flowers or purchase her contact information for around $10 (the language used here varies, but some agencies do have catalog-like links which read "Add Marina (69207) to my order"). After corresponding with one or several of these women, the man usually flies out to meet her (before procuring a Fiance Visa, the INS requires that the couple meet at least once in person). Many MOB agencies also conduct group tours where men can travel to the Former Soviet Union to meet a slew of women at socials in different cities over the course of one visit. If the meeting goes well, the man applies for a K-1. The woman then undergoes a background check; the man does not.

Playing with Matches

Imagine what kind of union might grow out of this scenario: the groom--aggravated by negative experiences in past relationships--is looking forward to a bride who will be his, let him lead, love him unconditionally, and not want too much. The bride--so desperate as to leave her whole known world behind--is looking forward to increased freedom, prosperity, and opportunity. These hopes don't exactly intersect--and can, in fact, be an explosive combination. The MOB men, many of whom exhibit aggressive and dominating tendencies on the message boards, are very likely infor a nasty surprise: contrary to being the docile, subservient women advertised on the MOB sites, these Russian women are audacious enough to risk it all in hopes they'll land a better life. And contrary to the expectation that MOBs will be more committed to making a partnership work, many Russian women treat marriage as a means (albeit a lengthy one) to a green card. Add to this mix the fact that the man has spent thousands of dollars to actualize this union. Add to that tremendous cultural and linguistic barriers, as well as the frequently considerable disparity in age, and you've got a match made in hell.

The despair a man feels over this disappointment too often turns to violence. According to the INS' 1999 report to Congress on MOBs, "while no national figures exist on the abuse of alien wives, there is every reason to believe that the incidence is higher in this population than for the nation as a whole." There have been several high-profile domestic violence cases which have led to calls for increased regulation of the MOB industry. In 2003, Ukrainian MOB Alla Barney was stabbed to death by her American husband, who had previously been served with a restraining order for assaulting her. In 2001, 20-year-old MOB Anastasia King from Kyrgyzstan was brutally murdered by her American husband, Indle King, and his lover. Anastasia was Indle King's second MOB--his first had received a protective order against him after he punched her and beat her head against a wall.

Recently, Ukrainian Nataliya Mikhaylovna Fox, who had been savagely beaten by her Virginian husband James Fox, won a lawsuit she filed against the MOB agency that set her up. A jury awarded Fox more than $430,000 in damages because MOB agent Natasha Spivack and her company Encounters International had failed to help Fox. When Fox came to EI reporting her abuse--mistrusting the police, unable to speak good English, hoping for aid from people who shared her language and background--Spivack told her she should work it out herself and that if her marriage ended she would be deported, even though MOB agencies are required to inform immigrant women of their right to self-petition for a green card. Fox testified, "[Spivack] said, 'All Americans--all American men are crazy.' She said that, and then she said, 'Maybe you just listen to him and do what he says.'" (10) Misinformation is common with MOB agencies--after all, many of them have money-back guarantees for the men, and it certainly isn't effective advertising to have high incidence of divorce. One agency reportedly told an abused MOB that domestic violence was normal in the United States; another MOB was told calling 911 cost $300. (11)

Because the men are not currently required to undergo background checks, recidivism is common. Layli Miller-Muro, executive director of the Tahirih Justice Center (a global women's advocacy group that assisted Nataliya) found after some investigation that "many men were on to their third or fourth mail-order brides." (12) James Fox had two failed (and abusive) MOB relationships before he met Nataliya; he is currently on his fourth.

A bill introduced last year by Senator Maria Cantwell and Representative Rick Larsen--the International Marriage Broker Regulation Act--would require men seeking Fiance Visas to undergo background checks and would prevent men from seeking more than one visa at a time. These steps are sure to correct some of the most egregious wrongs of the MOB industry, but full correction means dismantling the industry altogether. Reading the message boards of RWGuide, it is unequivocally clear that these men are not interested in learning about foreign cultures or having a relationship of equals. MOB agencies are not and cannot become dating sites--they are plainly shopping catalogs, and they depend on the poverty of women worldwide and dangerous aggravation with self-possessed women at home.

The following are acronyms commonly used on Russian Women Guide and Russian Women Abroad forums. These acronyms are also used in this article.

MOB--Mail Order Bride

AW/WW--American Women/ Western Women

RW/UW--Russian Women/ Ukrainian Women

AM / RM--American Men / Russian Men

FSU--Former Soviet Union

GCG--Green Card Girl (meaning women who marry just to immigrate)

DV--domestic violence

All RWGuide users are identified only by their screennames.

(1) Quotes from message boards are reprinted exactly as they appear online. All typos, misspellings, and grammatical mistakes within the quotes are sic. This article focuses on Russian MOBs because as of this writing agencies offering women from the Former Soviet Union far out-number those catering to men who want women from any other region. Because regulation of the MOB industry is minimal, my assessments of the customer demographic are based on close investigation of dozens of mail-order bride sites and message boards.

(2) "International Match Goes Awry" by Sue Lindsay. Rocky Mountain News, December 18, 2004.

(3) Bureau of Justice Statistics Crime Data Brief, Intimate Partner Violence, 1993-2001, February 2003.

(4) "Human Rights Reporting" by Katherine Cheng. Columbia University Graduate School of Journalism, 2002.

(5) "World Wide Wedlock: Russian Mail-order Brides on the Internet" by Julie Hill Barton. Women in Mind, February 2005.

(6) UN Statistics Division, updated January 2005.

(7) "'Cyber brides' vulnerable to abuse?" by Olly Bootle. BBC News; May 18, 2004.

( http://aprettywoman.com

(9) http://www.angelika.net

(10) "Mail-order bride wins damage award," by Stephanie Hanes. The Baltimore Sun, November 19, 2004.

(11) "Cyber brides", BBC News.

(12) "Mrs. America" by Nadya Labi. Legal Affairs, January / February 2004.
COPYRIGHT 2005 The Rector and Visitors of The University of Virginia, on Behalf of the University of Virginia Women's Center

[Admin]

For anyone with the interest and time to reply, the 'magazine' claims to accept counterpoint articles of ~500 words. http://iris.virginia.edu/

Suggest someone (or someone*s*), collaborate with a rebuttal.

- Dan

[Admin]

Two more comments:

I noticed the date of the article after posting my previous message - the article is 2 years old, so hardly new information. Still, the rebuttal from anyone(s) who are inspired to rebut, would (IMO) be a great idea.

Next, there is a report from a California University which is posted on our site, and which was also conducting a review of Planet-Love - found here -- http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=3326.0

When I queried Ada (the latest researcher to appear on the forums), her response was; "I think it is important to point out that the article you referred to is not based on in-depth interviews of members here on the board. It is about the representation of the board and the construction of masculinity. It is content analysis of a website. If I want to perpetuate steretypes, I could have gone about doing research the same way. I can go over the archives and debates and depict people a certain way. Voila, a book or an article can be written." (http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=3326.msg60844#msg60844)

So my points are - none of this is new - none of this will go away - so long as we are involved in a process which AW can characterize as repugnant, they will - and I doubt we will EVER see any balanced perspective.

Just a point of perspective - FWIW

- Dan

[Gator]

Dan,

I think we are too late.  The paper was published two years ago and was probably written six months before that.   

What could we rebut?  Since written the FSU economy has improved and IMBRA is being implemented.  And she fails to mention that there are many happy marriages.  However, she is pointing out real problems that can not be denied in my opinion.   I thought the author is 85% correct.  Her paper could have been much worse, considering that the journal is pro-women, and we have seen worse in other publications.  

Personally, I feel it should be given more credence than the agengy hype.

The author did embellish:

Reading the message boards of RWGuide, it is unequivocally clear that these men are not interested in learning about foreign cultures or having a relationship of equals.

In my opinion if she had said "many men" or "some men" are this way, she would have been correct.  Even if these "many men" read her paper, I imagine they would ignore this conclusion and its implications.  

Some conclusions explain why a man should take the time to know his woman and to understand her goals:

That so many MOBs are highly educated belies their professed desires to be domestic: these women are surely seeking a more fulfilling life and more freedom--not less.

Though many of these women are educated professionals, their often limited English contributes to the impression that they're simple-minded with only basic needs and interests.

Her description of agencies is not far from the truth:

MOB agencies are not and cannot become dating sites--they are plainly shopping catalogs, and they depend on the poverty of women worldwide and dangerous aggravation with self-possessed women at home.

Finally, you must admit that the following conclusion is true in many cases:

Imagine what kind of union might grow out of this scenario: the groom--aggravated by negative experiences in past relationships--is looking forward to a bride who will be his, let him lead, love him unconditionally, and not want too much. The bride--so desperate as to leave her whole known world behind--is looking forward to increased freedom, prosperity, and opportunity. These hopes don't exactly intersect--and can, in fact, be an explosive combination. The MOB men, many of whom exhibit aggressive and dominating tendencies on the message boards, are very likely infor a nasty surprise: contrary to being the docile, subservient women advertised on the MOB sites, these Russian women are audacious enough to risk it all in hopes they'll land a better life. And contrary to the expectation that MOBs will be more committed to making a partnership work, many Russian women treat marriage as a means (albeit a lengthy one) to a green card. Add to this mix the fact that the man has spent thousands of dollars to actualize this union. Add to that tremendous cultural and linguistic barriers, as well as the frequently considerable disparity in age, and you've got a match made in hell.

[I/O]

Having read through this script, I have to acknowledge a fair amount of truth mixed in with the obvious provocatism.  If one steps back just a touch from the personal involvement and looks objectively, the primary target of the article is the MOB industry main players, that is agencies etc.  Certainly to a lessor extent the WM involved (In general, not anyone specific) cop a spray also and in some, perhaps many cases it is not entirely undeserved.

However the underlying and in fact outstanding theme that jumps out at me is the almost religious determination of some women to pursade the rest of the world that, not only do "They know what they want", but they know so much that they know what all men want and need also.

Some of our western women simply don't "Get it" and never will.  Some are trying to hide in the comfort zone of assuming men are taking a step down by searching for a partner abroad and will never come to grips with the fact that men men are looking for something much better than is available at home.  These women, certainly do not make up all of WW, but there is a large percentage and if the day ever comes when they realise what they are actually missing out on, Prozak will form a greater part of the staple diet for many than it does right now.     The first reality some of them need to come to terms with if they are ever to achieve the equality they so fervently desire is that there does exist, right now, something much better than they are. 

The very points of contention made in this article regarding men catorgarising women, is in fact exactly what this article is doing regarding men.  In other words, the old adage that when you point a finger at someone, look at your hand because there is 3 more fingers pointing right back at you.  The author of the article would do well to consider this. 

Glaringly, some of her quotations and so called number-facts have been pulled directly from some of Elena Petrova's ramblings on the subject.  Elena Petrova (Elenas Models) is an MOB herself and has as much experience and perhaps credability on the subject as most, but she is first and foremost a marketing specialist and has done rather well since she has had the financial backing and  guidance of her now husband in order to pursue this market and industry. 

The article grabs onto the "Elena Petrova pushed" and outdated number of 88/100 Russian demographic and on the other hand implies very strongly the only reason for Russian women seeking partners abroad is lifestyle and economics.  Kinda self defeating combination of arguments.

Nevertheless and notwithstanding that a number of comments (From writers here) have been taken completely out of context, there is a good deal of truth or at least wake up calling in the article for all involved in this pursuit.  Again, it would come down to "If the cap fits you should wear it" for many who may be annoyed by the content.  On the other hand, there is a certain BS content also which should be discarded.

FWIW

I/O

[ScottinCrimea]

     As I see it, this woman had already formed her own opinion on this subject, then used whatever quotes and references tended to support it, conveniently ignoring anything to the contrary.  She wanted to paint a certain picture, so she selected the brushes and the colors.  Just like any art, it's a false representation of the real thing.  I noticed that all of her references were authored by women.
     While some of her statements about the agencies ring true and deserve looking at, here negative points about anything and everything obscure this.  She should have either focused on the men, the women or the agencies individually or else trie to be more even in her reporting.

[Gator]

I/O,

Great point about American women believing that that they know what is best for everyone:  themselves, AM, and probably our FSUW too.

My ex-fiancée was frequently annoyed by some AW who, although a complete stranger, would ask her personal questions.  Worse were the condescending or derogatory questions such as:   Do you have a job? She would ask me, “What is wrong with some of your women? Russian people do not behave this way."

She did meet many kind, friendly and helpful AW to whom she expressed her sincere gratitude.  We do have all types of women in America (and I suppose Oz too); unfortunately, we do have an abundance of “nosey know it alls”.

Just recently I was in Laos with my Cosashka dining at an open aired French restaurant.  There were many expats in the place, predominantly  Europeans.  The Cosashka remarked that one woman kept looking at the two of us, essentially staring.   I said, “It is probably an American woman” even though I had seen few Americans in Laos.  A few minutes later, I turned and looked – yep, a 50-yo AW.  The Cosashka said that the AW was talking a lot but her husband said little.  I said, “Happens a lot in America.”  I do not know if Cosashka ever understood.

[Bruno]

These article is like news on the TV... they say the true but omit to say a lot of thing...

Yes, story like maxx happend...
Yes, some guys hurt physicaly his foreign bride...
Yes, some guys seek abroad because they are looser in own country...
Yes, some guys seek a submissive wife...

BUT ... how much % of all yearly foreign marriage are these case... let say 4000 to 6000 marriage by year with foreign bride... maybe one or two murder, maybe 10-20 DV, maybe 10-20 slave girls... total between 21 and 42... not yet 1%... and people use these 1% for judge the 99% who are other... bad news is good for a article, good news don't lead people to read the story...

For when a real article with real statistic... certainly never because it will show that the majority of men involved in MOB are good and normal men... She use data from some gouvernemental handbook but she forget to say that the same hanbook explain that foreign marriage seem to last longer that national one...

Yes, these article don't lie but hide the true who don't serve the agenda from the writer...

[WmGO]

Wow, I am honored to have been quoted by the feminist AW - completely out of context of course. That was a long time ago indeed. But I do have a good recollection of that thread from PL. If the writer had made an accurate account in general of the thread and the entire post in particular from which my quote was taken, she would have made an observation that not all AM pursuing FSUW have delusions of grandeur or that all such men are alike. She only used one sentence to support the theory she already wanted to make - "paranoia", etc. In this regard she talks out of both sides of her mouth - first criticizing *all* AM for even *thinking* about FSUW and then criticizing them for being cautious and circumspect about the process - i.e. what she calls "paranoia".

The subject of that old PL thread was the quality of WM going to FSU in pursuit of an FSUW. Many posters agreed, myself included,that most AM going to FSU do not represent the best that their country has to offer. In other words, the bulk of the thread was an honest assessment and critique of WM and particularly AM. My opinion expressed in that post and one shared by many was that many if not most of the AM going to FSU are not the best quality of AM - there are many social misfits, weirdos, slobs, clueless  blokes, and  exploiters of young girls, etc. to be found in the AM group. You would think that the feminist writer would have cited that to support her anti AM story line - "hey even many AM agree that many AM going to FSU in search of FSUW bride are poor quality men..."

However, my opinion was not just that most of the AM are not the best that America has to offer -  I presented the flip side of the coin which is that, regardless of their "quality", they are being exploited for their money. My view expressed in that post was that while most of these AM may be misfits or not the cream of the crop, most of them are honest men with good hearts that just want to be happy - and they are being milked for their money by agencies, professional daters, scammers, etc. .

In other words, my opinion was (and still remains) that *most* of the "exploitation" is the industry exploiting the WM, not WM "exploiting" FSUW -  another viewpoint that the AW writer could have used to support her opinion/agenda as it relates to criticizing agencies marketing fantasies to unsuspecting AM.

As other posters have pointed out, she does make some valid points. But all in all it is nothing more than the typical university "Womens Studies" program material: AM bad, stupid and weak and AW good, smart and strong.

[Rvrwind]

As in all articles on this subject or any other subject for that matter one must expect the truth to be somewhere in the middle. All in all I think it was fairly fair compared to some others I have read, but that isn't saying that all of what she wrote is the whole truth. I noticed that she did only take quotes from the boards however & never once did she interveiw a happily married couple & relied totall on statistics that in themselves developed for there own user & not always what is the real truth.
As Bruno stated:

BUT ... how much % of all yearly foreign marriage are these case... let say 4000 to 6000 marriage by year with foreign bride... maybe one or two murder, maybe 10-20 DV, maybe 10-20 slave girls... total between 21 and 42... not yet 1%... and people use these 1% for judge the 99% who are other... bad news is good for a article, good news don't lead people to read the story...

1% is nothing really but taken out of context & on its own can be made to look like a lot. But as we all are aware, good news does not sell, bad news does & as long as that remains the truth, the truth of the MOB will never really be known.
Seems my infamy is spreading & I thank her for that, I shall now live on in posterity.

[WmGO]

P.S., how dare she call PL  RWG's "uncouth cousin" 

[Admin]

P.S., how dare she call PL  RWG's "uncouth cousin" 

Yeah - I noticed the article was dated when she made THAT reference, and also that RWD is a "a kind of no-frills RWGuide." Obviously, the article is out-of-date.   

- Dan

[KenC]

I think that this article is about as fair as we are ever going to get unless we write it ourselves.  Most of it is accurate and only some of it misleading.  I also think that if the author read the current version of RWD, she would see a lot more time and energy spent on cultural differences than she did on RWG and even PL years ago.  I guess it does irritate me a bit that the author took my comments about gender role confusion to mean that RW were submissive too.  That is a bridge that just isn't there in reality.
KenC

[Gator]

This is what I could learn quickly about Gina Welch:

Graduated from U.Va. with a master’s in Arts and Sciences (major - fiction writing)  in 2004

Coordinating editor for Iris, a magazine that had its beginnings as a newsletter for the U. Va. Women’s Studies center.

(see photo below, Gina is on the right)

A liberal (as if we could not guess) having written an editorial in 2004 of the need to “…fight against the Rove-ian narrative and the complacency that sustains myths."

She left the Iris in 2005, and I could not be sure where she is today.  Various gina Welch's in Google:

Kripalu Bodyworker, Massachusetts
Manager, Head Start Center for Allegany County, Pennsylvania
Member, Arkansas Craft Guild
Foster Parent Trainee, Florida
Awaiting trial for fraud, Trinidad

[Gator]

I wish to re-examine something I quoted earlier today from Gina Welch’s paper:

That so many MOBs are highly educated belies their professed desires to be domestic: these women are surely seeking a more fulfilling life and more freedom--not less.

Why would being a stay-at-home mother be less fulfilling than life in the FSU? 

[Maxx2]

Kripalu Bodyworker, Massachusetts
Manager, Head Start Center for Allegany County, Pennsylvania
Member, Arkansas Craft Guild
Foster Parent Trainee, Florida
Awaiting trial for fraud, Trinidad

Gina really gets around....


Maxx

[I/O]

Why would being a stay-at-home mother be less fulfilling than life in the FSU? 

Gator I could give you a helluva ripping on that comment, but I think I understand what you actually mean.

Nevertheless, I guess as I get older, I actually look more and more to my parents as an example of how it can and should be.  Yes you could say my mother is a "Stay at home" mum (Of 3) with only 5 years of formal education, takes care of her husband and some could say doesn't have much control in the situation.  That would be one way of looking at it.

However, on the other hand when one looks closely, yes she does defer to my father often for guidence on surprisingly minor decisions, BUT, she speaks French fluently (Yes with only 5 years of formal education) writes admirable poetry, successfully raised (In our opinion anyway) 3 children, is quite comfortable to write a cheque for 150k if the situation requires, capable to run an entire business, including 3 companies when my father was seriously injured, runs a houshold where you could eat your dinner from the floor (Seriously clean) and so it goes. 

She has the ABSOLUTE trust and respect of her husband, she has the FREEDOM to make whatever decision she wishes and within reason, spend whatever money she so chooses.  Why?  Because she has dammed well earned that trust and respect, just the same way as my father has earned hers.  Do they have the perfect marriage? Of course not, nobody does.  But parting them would be like parting the Red Sea, it would require Divine intervention. 

She smiles when others remark, "Oh you are lucky, you have an understanding husband".  She simply remarks, "Yes, because I understand him".  She doesn't agree with him on everything, but she does back off and leave major decisions (mostly) to him, because she knows dammed well he will defer to her for comment anyway.  IMO, although far from perfect, she KNOWS how to play her cards right and she simply spits at all this BS that floats around about liberation and freedom.  Her remark is a very telling one, that is she often says, "Yeah, look at the result, which is the children raised in such situations, they only consider their entitlements and nothing more".  I kinda think she is spot on the money.

Lots of our local girls have shot themselves in the foot as it were, however, I want to add that not all of them are this way.  Thankfully some still know how to be a women and get the best out of being so.

I/O

[Wayne B]

'Dam it' I/O if I did'nt know the difference.....I could swear to you that we are in the same family.....by the way? are you my brother?

[Chuckles1970]

Joking, but maybe knowing ho is how they keep the men...LOL. As long as it's not Don Ho.

[TexasBoar]

Of course, it must be said that the article is, as Ada succinctly characterized it, a "website analysis" . . . of RWGuide. 

Now, I don't know what RWGuide was like two years ago . . . but I know what it was like last year . . . 

I know some of y'all are members both here and there, but honestly, having this pursuit represented by that place is a bit like characterizing HOG members only by what you read on an outlaw biker forum.

~Boar

[Gator]

I/O,

Fortunately you realize that I was not insulting “stay-at-home Moms” and instead asking Gina a rhetorical question.   Gina Welch makes it sound as if raising children would be less fulfilling to any educated woman than the life she left in Russia.

IMO, this country needs more stay-at-home Moms and more motivated teachers.  In contrast, many of these RW may be arriving with the intent of accomplishing something with their professional career in addition to raising children.  That is fine if the man knows this and accepts this up front.

[BillyB]

It doesn't matter if Gina Welch's article is mostly or partly true. As a whole, it's garbage designed to make her readers look down upon EVERYONE in the international dating/marriage scene. She wrote the article to fulfill an agenda and score points with her readers. Her readers will most likely accept all her words as true, that's why she wouldn't mention the members with happy marriages with beautiful, intelligent wives. Maybe feminists should do something with themselves that would encourage non-feminists to write favorable articles on them. Instead, they write articles to put other women down and put down the men that chase "other" women.

How many of you "Disgruntled Grooms" that are fed up with AW, as Gina calls it, and look to the FSU for submissive women? FSU women = submissive women??????

[BillyB]

Typed Gina into Google and found out she graduated with a Masters in fiction and is co-editor of Iris magazine for progressive women. I don't think I'll be picking up a subscription anytime soon unless I want to learn how to get a bigger ass.

http://www.virginia.edu/insideuva/2005/08/iris.html

[andrewfi]

I saw very little to argue with in this, old, article. She said what she was going to do and did it. No misquoting, no distortions - although as is often the case, I would question the sources of her numeric claims. I'd love to know if, given the time of her writing she was quoting my 'fag packet' calculation in respect of the numbers of women active in agencies... If she was then it is a pity that she did not note that the figure is little more than a guess, whichever source is used.

People were not misquoted, although as always some of those quoted have used the 'context defence', but as a long time reader, I don't really see much strength in that argument.
She painted a very recognisable picture, but she was not, although she has a viewpoint, overly uneven.
She was painting you/we/me and if we don't like the paintng there are only two things to do, change the painter, or change the appearance  of the subject of the painting.
In all honesty, she wrote an article fairly close to that which I would write, noting the same issues with some of her 'witness reports'. She could have, very easily, used a lot more black in her palette, she chose to not do so.

Gator's point about the 'life fulfillment' issue is a good one, but I have to say that I am firmly in the camp of those who believe that the choice about child rearing, work and the balance of those two are, ultimately, for women to make, ideally in concert with their life partner. It certainly seems from reading the words of many posters here and on other boards over the years that many men engaged in the pursuit of a foreign bride ARE seeking a women who will compromise her life fulfillment in exchange for a higher economic standard of living - the faux 'traditional' role promulgated by many male posters.
One should remember that women in Russia typically earn around 43% of male wages and thus it becomes easier for women to make a 'stay at home' choice. It is not unresaonable to expect that when a woman moves to the US where the figure is around 75% that she might change her mind, or even, knowing in advance the situation, be seeking a billet that gives her the freedom she rightfully seeks. That this inconveniences some men is not an issue that should, or need be, considered by any woman.

Gator, it may be that the US needs more PEOPLE to look after kids at home. There is no good reason why it should be women who have that privilege to themselves!.

[ScottinCrimea]

     I'm sorry, but I lose confidence in the statements of anyone who quotes the "women only earn 75% (or whatever figure is currently popular) of what men earn".  This is a statistic that has been misrepresented and misused solely for purposes of pushing the feminist agenda.  For the same job with equivalent qualifications and experience, the wage, whether male or female, is exactly the same.
     The problem with this article, despite the truths it contains, is that it paints all parties involved with the same brush and focuses on the negative aspects while conveniently ignoring the many positive ones.  It was written by a feminist for a feminist audience and she was telling them what they wanted to hear.  If she had dared to write an article focusing on the positive aspects, it would never have been printed.