Western Hypocrisy

[Daveman]

Also to get a difference between directiness  ( which is no worse than western "hypocrisy"  - it's just a matter of "taste" ) and rudeness you should speak at the same mother's language with people.

This is interesting.  I have no idea what you mean in *this* case by western hypocrisy.  I invite you over to the "odds and ends" area to discuss this if you wish.  I'll create the thread and please elaborate if you wish.

The west is replete with hypocrites of all shapes and sizes - social,  religious, political, in every corner.  But, what exactly is it to which you are referring?

Dave

[Gator]

Elen, Not speaking Russian, I suppose I will never distinguish between Russian directness and what I consider rudeness. 

Nevertheless, I consider it rude when a sales person asks a RW if she would like to try on some shoes, and the RW frowns when answering with a "No, they are ugly".  Yet, it is direct and the sales person now knows that she is selling ugly shoes.  However, I doubt if the sales person will feel like saying to the RW, "I have better shoes at the next counter and the price is reduced."

Dave, what I am getting to is that many RW think American smiles are phony and silly.  I suppose this is one example of Western hypocrisy. 

And one time I ventured to McDonalds (my RW has young children, enough said).  The manager came out to the front and exclaimed to the cashiers, "No one is smiling!  It is important to smile!"

I saw a video of a Russian businessman remarking how when he went to his first business meeting in America, everyone was smiling at him when he was introduced.  He wondered what silly thing he had done, and he looked at his trousers to make sure his zipper was not down.

Elen, if you think Americans smile too much, you should meet some Hispanics or Thai.  Most of the world smiles and understands its value.  Yes, Russians have not had much to smile about for a long, long time.  Neither has a Jamaican woman, yet beneath that bucket of water she balances on her head, her smile is as bright as the sun.  It makes people looking at you feel good, and it makes the one who smiles feel good too.

Try an experiment.  In private, make a smile.  Make a frown.  Repeat.  Which one makes you feel better? Now look in the mirror.  Which one makes you look better?

Okay, next hypocrisy please.

[Elen]

I have not just now time ( really have not) to explain you what I call "western hypocracy" But what I mean is conected with realtionship and dealing with people in "common life" but not in those spheras where people are "obligated" to smile because that's what they get money for ( or supposed to get)

 PS Gator I can't smile in front of Americans anymore after reading post at RWG  - a thought that Americans don't see my SMILE actully and don;t apprecite it's sicerity at all but only evaluate a work of my dantist is hanting me now   

Try an experiment.  In private, make a smile.  Make a frown.  Repeat.  Which one makes you feel better? Now look in the mirror.  Which one makes you look better?
Okay, next hypocrisy please.

That one which reflexes my current mood in a case if I think that other people do care in what mood I'm currently and wish to know how I really feel.

[BC]

Try an experiment.  In private, make a smile.  Make a frown.  Repeat.  Which one makes you feel better? Now look in the mirror.  Which one makes you look better?

Okay, next hypocrisy please.

Ok Gator.. here's the next one:

Next time we are out shopping and I see the price-tag.. should I smile or frown?

 

[SANDRO43]

Smiles are not interpreted in the same way in all cultures : they are generally associated with feelings of pleasure, happiness, amusement, but can also be an involuntary expression of anxiety or even of embarassment/shame (see http://kyushu.com/gleaner/issue43/story.shtml) as for instance in Japan. If you look at the rightmost Kanji character for smile (bishu), you'll see it resembles a none-too-happy face .

When I lived in the US, I had the distinct impression that many of the smiles I saw were somewhat forced/statutory, rather than genuine, as if the imperative were "be jolly at all costs".

In the animal world, the baring of the teeth is usually a signal of menace/preparation for attack, except with the ambiguous chimps (too close to us on the evolutionary scale ).

[Jazzyclassy]

I am quoting Elen from the Age Old debate topic

    All "reasonings" about appreciating opinions of women from other culture at this board look for me like a hypocrisy because if those opinion don;t suit your own ideas you ( you* - I speak in general like an "attitude" of Americans   ) either call women idiots with such a fine American "courtesy" or try your best to explain why it was wrong
 The last thing you try to do is to even imagine for one moment that it's YOU who don;t understand something in others' culture It could be understandable if such behaviour of yours would be in cases of discusing life in AMERICA or males attitude to some issue But no it goes in ANY discussion about life in country your visited just few times, which language you don;t bother ( and can't ) to learn ( although pointing at bad English of Russian women who try to carry discussion with you is your usual "last " argument when you lack of others)
 It's easy for you to explain your own inability to understand others like stubbornness of women, like rudeness of whole nation, like suspicion ( because of former KGB  - what a  фигня     and etc - ANYTHING except admitting a fact YOU yourself can't understand and can't accept other's cultures and another opinions                   
        

 

I confirm, it is absolutely ridiculous , how cheeky people sometimes can be who think they  know everything about russian women and their culture...

And in this case language is a barrier for those men ...........

Before to judge russian culture , you 'd better try and learn the language , live that russian life somewhere in the dirty village and then after that I will look at your American Dignity Tact and Correctness without bags of money -- a deal?

Second , I remember when we  were reading John Galsworthy's The Forsyte Saga our professor kept telling us before reading the novel, you need to know the history of the country the history of the Uk of that period of time, what kind of people were living that period , who were they and so on  and only then you will understand their actions, their manners and the whole plot of the story ( buccaneer Bosinney and  those rich family of Forsytes  Jolyon and Soames and so on ), that time we were like or we do not need to know it is all nonsense and then after reading it we came across the thing that the book opened a lot of interesting details about people and other culture peculiarities which we never knew before.

I know english  language a little , I can communicate , but still I do not allow myself to judge your culture in such a cheeky manner how you all are doing here, think about it,
who are you to do this? none of you know russian or truly learn russian soul , so why you allow yourself such comments
... russian directness and bla bla bla bla

That is our culture,  accept it or leave it , find yourself some Philippine people or stick to your Americans  , stick to those people who will suit your ideal dreams and who will break their souls just in order to suit your politcorrectness, your tact , perfect taste and american dream hollywood plastic boobs fantasy, but do not dare try and change russian culture you simply wont manage to do that, the same as russian people wont change your culture, but we do not try and never tried  to do this  unlike you!

That is western hypocrisy , when they tell oh we love russians as how they are while talking with russian community, but while gathering together for a beer they are discussing how direct, with awful taste russian people are, how disgraceful and strange they are with their lack of manner, how stupid they are and we will trick them with our out of date meat will sell them low quality clothes and food and they will be happy with that , that is how you think  and  That is your hyposcy Hypocrisy in the fact that russians will eat everything you are giving them , and you keep telling oh that is so great cool , thinking deep in your heart wow how these  russian can really eat and accept these  crazy things we offer them.............

Something for you to think about

[I/O]

Jazz: A lot of what you say has some Merritt, however, you are forgetting some very important things.  Russians DO make judgements about westerners. To dispute that is nonsense and you know that as well as I do.  The second and more important point is that very often those judgements are made by Russians who have never been outside Russia.

Therein lies one very big difference.  You say that westerners make judgements without FULLY knowing Russian culture.  Quite correct.  BUT many of these people have been around a number of countries and can compare a number of cultures.  Therefore they are imminently more qualified to speak than someone who hasn't seen anything other than their own.

I have to say, from my experience, I can't confirm this "Russian Bluntness/Directness" that many speak of.  In fact those whom I have associated with, given a handful of exceptions have been most polite in even the most basic ways and generally rather refined.   

What I have noticed is similar to many people who use English as a second language and that is a lesser amount of "Sheer Wordiness" in conversational exchanges and naturally some of the "niceties" are not used because of limited vocab.  That is to be expected of anyone who is conversing in a non mother tongue. 

Perhaps I have had some influence, but I doubt a great amount on my fiance's family, yet pleases, thankyous and you are welcomes are very much part of ordinary conversation in BOTH Russian and English.

I also have rather noticed this with friends of hers and her family.  It was something of a discussion point between us at one time that I exercise a lot more expressive "Non Verbal" communication, such as smiles, head shaking or nodding and such like, BUT my fiance' very quickly found herself doing exactly the same thing when she was here because she needed every possible tool available to make herself understood. 

Frankly I think it is wrong for Russians to make broad brush generalisations about westerners or for westerners to make broad brush generalisations about Russians until each has spent a considerable amount of time in each others country.  Knowing a handful of people for another country only gives one a tiny insight and is a poor basis on which to form hard opinions. 

To my mind the hypocrisy and erroneous assumptions are equally shared in this regard and I have see a similar amount on both sides.  But, again, that is simply my experience. 

I/O

[Elen]

Whatelse I call like hipocracy 

some statement like that

Elen:  I have been fairly patient with your nonsense throughout this thread, but it has run out and I can only conclude that you have some side agenda behind your bullh!te.  If you have nothing useful to add, then do the sensible thing and add nothing rather than making yourself look like a complete idiot.  God knows there is enough of them around without you joining into that group.
I/O

going from a man who claimed he was interested in getting opinion 

[Rvrwind]

The second and more important point is that very often those judgements are made by Russians who have never been outside Russia.

Maybe!!! But they watch Dallas & Knots Landing!!!
Isn't that real life in America? They seem to think so here.

[I/O]

Whatelse I call like hipocracy 

some statement like that

going from a man who claimed he was interested in getting opinion 

Elen:  You efforts are amusing at least and it has almost been worth the thread just for that.  To explain, you are obviously trying to twist words just a little in order to completely shift the focus of the thread.  You've done it from the start.

The reality is that the very vast majority of age gap marriages are "man older than woman" and yes I did ask for comment from "Experienced People" in this area.  Your view seems to be that it is hypocritical to justify or accept and age gap where the man is older than the woman but not accept the other way around.  Perhaps so. But that is and was of no interest to me at the outset of the thread and remains of no interest. 

I was not looking for useless debate on a subject which has been debated too many times, I was looking for input on the "How to's" for those who ARE actually in this situation. I gave my reasons why I chose not to marry a woman older than me. You may not like those reasons, but that is how it is.  I can choose in the same way as you can choose.  Financial independence brings only a few things in this world and one of those things is some choices. 

I've made my choice and the validity of that choice is not for open debate with anyone, much less here.

I pay you a due tribute to debate a subject in a language other than your mother language, I couldn't do it.  However, I still think you didn't fully comprehend the original thrust of the subject and persisited in trying to derail it onto something else. 

FWIW accept my apologies if you felt I was directly calling you an idiot.  I was not.  I stated your writing in the thread was starting to make you look like one.  A vast difference.  The point was and is..........stay on the subject and not get off into irrelevant abstract discussions. 

I/O

[Daveman]

One of my reasons for being on this board, is the sincere attempt to understand the differences in our cultures so that I can actually live in harmony with a Russian woman.

I certainly never claimed to know everything about Russian culture (again, I am trying to learn) and I am in the process or learning the Russian language.

I can't really speak for everyone else, but I do  know my own motives and intentions.  As someone else mentioned, the blending of two cultures is a difficult thing because we all think and feel, and perceive things from our cultural perspective.

Truly, this endeavor may indeed be too difficult for me because I really don't want to live with a woman who nit picks each word I say, applying to each one some motive or whatever that doesn't really exist anywhere but in her own mind, thinking I'm a hypocrite for being polite or smiling at her.  It just doesn't make sense to me and I'll probably never understand that.

The more I think about the realities of living with a Russian woman, day in and day out, the more I contemplate whether I am really cut out for a life like this.  It seems that finding compromise would be more of a daily struggle, or even war.  Really, I may not be cut out for this kind of life and it is certainly much better to realize that earlier rather than later.

David

[Jazzyclassy]

     Truly, this endeavor may indeed be too difficult for me because I really don't want to live with a woman who nit picks each word I say, applying to each one some motive or whatever that doesn't really exist anywhere but in her own mind, thinking I'm a hypocrite for being polite or smiling at her.         

It depends on how you smile, if you smile and  put into this smile all of your sincere kindness and opened positive emotions , she will never see any hypocrisy but if it is a so called  "on duty smile" or your fav "corporative ethics smile"  that is just wont work with russian woman , cos that is a hypocrisy to her, gotta be much more sensitive in this matter......

You see we are not wood too and we understand American and western culture, do you think we are not slaving this  westernization , oh we do a lot much more than you think, so that is what makes me sad cos , Russian women , in order to suit men they completely forget their own culture, everything is influenced even  in Russian language we have so many Americanisms it is just shocking how Russian language is being influenced

am not say all those changing are for the worse, but they are not for the best too you know

gotta keep everything in balance

we are Russians not Americans or western women, no matter how we treat to Russia deep in our hearts , we can not deny our birth place and our enormous history where there was  always Directness Opened minded talks Sincere Talks

that is just how we are , no use to scold us for being so ..... you are losing points in blaming Russian women to be such bla bla bla and such ,...really you lose women's attention by your undutiful authority knowing everything and everyone......

[Elen]

Elen:  You efforts are amusing at least and it has almost been worth the thread just for that. 

  Yes dear I got it already - I with my opinion just something like monkey in a zoo for your amusing noting more Thank for clarification I will not bother you anymore with explanation what and how women think about issues you wish to discuss ( as far as I recall you ask somethin there for BOTH sides but got only onesided opinion of males, but never mind I'm not going to explain where you would slip for sure in your age gap marriage just because you refuse to take a look at it from females side of fence And no advices from males who are concentrated mostly what they got in such marriages - their posts showed that perfectly -  could help you to escape those slips)

 You just should not be such patient with such an idiot like me but just said that straight from the very beginning I would be fine with "revelation" of your made at early stage of discussion ( or it - your so called "patient" but not words "idiot" - now looks like that hypocrisy we are speaking here about


I have no need in your appologies  - You still got nothing for those apologies would be accepted. They worth like just one more proof of the same subject discusing here because appoligies as well like smiles should be sincere Only in that cases they worth something

[Elen]

The more I think about the realities of living with a Russian woman, day in and day out, the more I contemplate whether I am really cut out for a life like this.  It seems that finding compromise would be more of a daily struggle, or even war.  Really, I may not be cut out for this kind of life and it is certainly much better to realize that earlier rather than later.
David

 Never think how Russians who are such rude by western standarts, such stubborn, suspicious and etc ( a full set of bad for peace life qualities)  manage to live under one roof with few generation and in communal flats ? Any explanation to such a phenomen?

[I/O]

Never think how Russians who are such rude by western standarts, such stubborn, suspicious and etc ( a full set of bad for peace life qualities)  manage to live under one roof with few generation and in communal flats ? Any explanation to such a phenomen?

Little choice.

I/O

[Elen]

.............................................................................................
.......чтобы здесь не было бы написано.... ..........................
I/O

Ignore you

[Daveman]

Never think how Russians who are such rude by western standarts, such stubborn, suspicious and etc ( a full set of bad for peace life qualities)  manage to live under one roof with few generation and in communal flats ? Any explanation to such a phenomen?

Of course, in the circumstance you mention above, you have the same cultural background, with the same "definitions" of rudeness, politeness, etc.  People with the same definitions in life *understand* each other easier.

That's the easiest question to understand and the answer is quite obvious.

Here's the thing.  The way two people from a different culture (or even the same culture) can understand each other is this.  When takes the other incorrectly the exchange should simply go like this.

1) Okay, you misunderstood my words or my intention.. this is what I meant.. (explanation)
2) Okay, I understand now what you meant, but this is why I took you the wrong way (explanation)

This is actual communication.  Communication is the only path to understanding. Using this method, with explanations, the two people begin to *understand* each other, not just the words, but what it is that makes each who they are.  The fog is lifted and the two can begin to really appreciate the differences, and find strength in the diversity.  I can easily see that there are aspects of my culture, and me, that you clearly do not understand just as you can easily see aspects of you and your culture that I don't understand.

First and foremost, both much recognize and accept the simple fact that there ARE aspects of each that are not understood by BOTH. 

You seem to think it is hypocrisy or somehow wrong to explain something that was misunderstood (and you did completely misunderstand), but instead, I should have some knowledge sent to me, I guess from outer space, or god, or somewhere, that I should understand the Russian woman and culture without her having to be patient and explain things to me as well. You have to teach each other.  I don't see why that should be such a problem, or hassle, or even questioned. It's simple common sense.

With many Russian women, maybe not all, but many.. they seem to expect me to be some kind of mind reader.  Well, hell, this is American women too, but anyway...  it's MUCH more difficult to read the mind of someone whose behavior you don't understand.  I'm not saying American culture is better, or that Russian culture is bad or barbaric -  I am saying I don't UNDERSTAND the behavior of Russian women sometimes, and there is absolutely no way I can possibly understand it, unless she explains the reasons *why* she does what she does,  she cannot understand me unless she *listens*, without making ridiculous accusations.

YOU have to be willing to explain things to me in a very patient manner as well, otherwise, I don't have even the slightest chance of understanding you or your culture.

And isn't understanding the ultimate goal? It should be.

Dave

[Elen]

Actually I meant not what you gave like an answer at my question which seemed easiest for you
 But somehow I lost ( currently of forever don;t know just now) a desire to explain what I  meant because I don;t wish to have one more time conversttion a-ka

1) Okay, you misunderstood my words or my intention.. this is what I meant.. (explanation)
2) Okay, I understand now what you meant, but this is why I took you the wrong way (explanation)

.......

N) You see I was too patient with you allowing you to post your silly opinion here ,idiot.  Though it was amusing though 

N+1) ignore you

[groovlstk]

Jazzy,

When my wife (a Moscow girl, like you) and I got serious last Spring, ALL of her colleagues and many of her friends were appalled that she'd have such poor taste as to get hooked up with an American. To these people, I was alternately foolish, greedy, domineering, uncouth, uncultured, stupid, and - no matter how well I treated her at the time, they told her that as soon as she arrived in America I was sure to turn into an ogre. They were 100% certain of this and weren't shy about sharing their opinions.

Might I add that I'd never met any of these people?

I eventually met most of them and they became very warm and supportive of us in short order.

Was it difficult for us? Not at all, she's a strong and independent woman and I knew we'd have much bigger trials than the unsolicited approval of her catty colleagues.  

Now, my wife faced (and continues to face) similar issues since she arrived in the US in late December. Are the Americans who question her motives in marrying me any more or less rude than her Russian friends and colleagues who disapproved of me without knowing so much as a single detail outside of the fact that I'm American? No, in my book they're all equally rude, you all can debate the nuances (i.e., the Russians are open about it while the Americans won't speak it to your face) until the cows come home, all that matters is that we don't allow it to effect our relationship.

[Elen]

I see hypocrisy not in judging other's but in telling compliments in face and judging behind a back Well even not in THAT - such thing are rather "international"  Hypocrisy that's American tend to name those smiles like "sincere "

[Daveman]

It depends on how you smile, if you smile and  put into this smile all of your sincere kindness and opened positive emotions , she will never see any hypocrisy but if it is a so called  "on duty smile" or your fav "corporative ethics smile"  that is just wont work with russian woman , cos that is a hypocrisy to her, gotta be much more sensitive in this matter......

It seems that we must somehow prove our sincerity for smiling.  Why?  I mean, if I look at a woman and smile, why do I need to have some great inner joy at that moment?  A smile does *mean* something.. it means "i like you", "hello",  "I am glad to be near you", "Hi, I am here at the shop to help you", "you're a stranger on the bus near me, but I'm not going to kill you"  -- many things.  We understand the different meanings in different circumstances, just like like language.  You've made a big effort in learning English language, so, instead of thinking of us as hypocrites for smiling in different situations, why not just learn the various *meanings* of the smiles in our culture so that you understand what the smiles are actually communicating?  Surely you have body language in your culture that is used for communication without words, smiles are simply one of ours.  It's communication, not hypocrisy.

You see we are not wood too and we understand American and western culture, do you think we are not slaving this  westernization , oh we do a lot much more than you think,

I understand you are not wood.  I want to understand the thoughts and feelings of RW, or at least my RW.  I fully understand that she is an individual with thoughts and feelings.

But the other point... You do NOT understand everything about our culture, smiles are simply one example of something you don't understand, and you couldn't possibly until after you lived within it for a few years, and even then, you probably wouldn't understand every nuance.  You make many assumptions about our culture that are false, but then, when we point out that you don't understand something, you seem to get offended, like you already know everything and have nothing else to learn.  I assure you that you still have *much* to learn about western culture.  If you really want to understand western culture, you first must accept that simple truth and go from there. 

I've accepted it about Russian culture.  It's obvious I have much to learn. The first step in leaning is realizing that there is, in fact, something to learn.

I agree to a point in another area that it is my responsibility to learn why what I say is taken the wrong way, and even to learn better and more productive ways to say it.  Again, this comes only through communication.  But it's more than simply MY responsibility. It's OUR responsibility.  It's the responsibility of both people to make the sincere attempt to be understood and to understand, and to learn how the other communicates. Again, to both teach and learn from each other better communication skills.

about stubbornness:
I remember one conversation I had with a Ukrainian girl talking about a law in America. She completely misunderstood the law, and how it is applied.  But, her friend had come to America on a K-1, and had returned home without marrying. This girl asked her friend about it because she had visited America, and her friend, knowing nothing at all about it,  explained to her (very erroneously, I guess making it up as she went along) about the law .. and this girl said to me exactly this "My friend in America three months, she know all about American law..."

And she was like a slab of granite. Nothing I could possibly say to her would convince her that she had incorrect information.  Very few AMERICANS understand all about American law.

She didn't know, her friend told her something, so now she will defend her position to the death rather than listen to someone who obviously has had experience with this very law, understands it, and is trying to explain it to her. 

I have had this similar experience with more than one, more than 10 FSU women trying to tell me how things are in America, being completely incorrect, but refusing to listen to someone who has actually LIVED here all his life.  Why is that?? 

This is how we come to the conclusion that many RW are stubborn.  Many of them don't LISTEN to people who obviously know more about a subject than they do. If that is not stubborn, what exactly would you call it?  Really, it's a serious question.  Help me to understand what it *really* is.  It may save me from going to prison one day. 

so that is what makes me sad cos , Russian women , in order to suit men they completely forget their own culture, everything is influenced even  in Russian language we have so many Americanisms it is just shocking how Russian language is being influenced

am not say all those changing are for the worse, but they are not for the best too you know

gotta keep everything in balance

Agreed, everything must be in balance.  But, if a woman is going to come to America, she must learn to live in that society, just like I would have to do if I lived in Russia, or Ukraine, or England, or India.. we must adapt to the environment without losing ourselves in the process.

we are Russians not Americans or western women, no matter how we treat to Russia deep in our hearts , we can not deny our birth place and our enormous history where there was  always Directness Opened minded talks Sincere Talks

that is just how we are , no use to scold us for being so ..... you are losing points in blaming Russian women to be such bla bla bla and such ,...really you lose women's attention by your undutiful authority knowing everything and everyone......

Well, I'm not here to win points in a game, I am here in the search of learning and understanding.  My sincerity in that quest should be obvious.  Open minded talks??  Sincere talks??   There must be a two way street there.  BOTH must be open minded and sincere.  Otherwise there is no real communication; there is only proselytical lecturing, which accomplishes only the building of bad feelings.

Dave

[Elen]

about stubbornness:
I have had this similar experience with more than one, more than 10 FSU women trying to tell me how things are in America, being completely incorrect, but refusing to listen to someone who has actually LIVED here all his life.  Why is that?? 

This is how we come to the conclusion that many RW are stubborn.  Many of them don't LISTEN to people who obviously know more about a subject than they do. If that is not stubborn, what exactly would you call it?  Really, it's a serious question.  Help me to understand what it *really* is.  It may save me from going to prison one day. 
Dave

  Have you read THIS board ?  If you have not then do it please and explain me what conclusion RUSSIANS could make about Americans .... just wonder what standart you judge yourself

[Jazzyclassy]

Well dear Dave

what can I say

for the time being here in RWD I learnt nothing but being ready to accept all the rudeness and dirty words and blamings towards people with individual points of view, nothing informative , frankly speaking

I knew that you would reply in such a manner and such a way , of course I understand you and your point of view and I admit sometimes we do not know things about americans and can make false conclusions, but for God sake do not consider russians to be stupid , it is just funny how you  are able to teach and to forecast .
No matter that I am young, no matter that I have never been abroad , I do not need to be abroad to see the World and situation developing around us here , there and everywhere of course I may not  know everything in detail , but I draw a picture in my mind already  that people are regressing in so many fields of activity and
the main thing we are regressing in our thoughts about family relations , how family should be, lacking of family culture, relations between man and woman ,unfortunately its been a fashion , some kinda  cult of international marriages, but we do not know what it will lead to,

......maybe to global mess , wars where people would just be killing each other cos they wont  understand, wont accept each other just how they are with all their directness and hypocrisy:P:P:P

I know that I probably wont find a russian guy who will be  like me in some ways, I found foreign guy who understands me so far, but it does not mean that it is forever we want it to be for good of course:), we are so young and we do not know what will happen tomorrow , how can we say anything for sure, we hope and believe that life will be good and kind towards us, but we are also aware of reality...........

[groovlstk]

Truly, this endeavor may indeed be too difficult for me because I really don't want to live with a woman who nit picks each word I say, applying to each one some motive or whatever that doesn't really exist anywhere but in her own mind, thinking I'm a hypocrite for being polite or smiling at her.  It just doesn't make sense to me and I'll probably never understand that.

I don't mean to steer this thread off topic since this post was from days ago but...  you're putting too much emphasis on a single example - although in a broader sense what you're worried about is, at least in my experience, true.

This is probably a good topic for another thread, but while you're probably not likely to meet a Russian woman who is going to nitpick each word you say or call you a hypocrite for smiling too often, you will not find a Russian woman who will take a relaxed or laid back approach to your relationship (at least not one who loves you, that is). By this I mean: If you tell your wife that on Saturday you plan to clean out the garage and on Saturday you instead decide to wax your car, she will not be happy - doesn't matter if it's the same amount of sweat or the same urgency. Changing plans at the last minute because you're tired after a long day or even at times for damn good reasons will result in some pointed questions.

You must mean what you say and say what you mean at all times. Forget to kiss her on your way to the office in the morning? Look out!

I'm not saying that she'll henpeck you to death, simply that Russian women will keep you straight and honest at all times, there's no slacking off. Ever. Don't promise something you can't deliver, and never, ever take her for granted.

I realize I've only been married for four months so maybe I'll get some time off in the future for good behavior, but I'm not counting on it My wife and I both agree that the past four months have been the best of our lives, but as JB has said before, there's a reason why Russian men drink vodka... it's that 2-3% of the time when it's necessary...

[WmGO]

Daveman,

What Groovlstk is saying is that most FSUW are anal retentive.

Be afraid, VERY AFRAID!