Age Gap - bull's eye

[catzenmouse]

One of the things that I see most valuable in Jazzy's opinions is that you truly get to see what and how a young Russian woman thinks about things. I truly fought with her on some stuff but after I stopped fighting the thoughts and looked at them for what they are it gave me a very different perspective of Jazzy as a person and as a member of this community. I enjoy reading what she has to say even though I don't agree with some of it and at times much of it but that is the same for all of us. I'm sure that one of my posts would be enlightening for one person and another would think "WTF has he been drinking?!?"

 For any man starting out or thinking about this he should pay special attention to the many Russian women who post here! If he has a bit of sense at all it should scare the living hell out of him and he should also clue into that saying that gets lost in the message around here sometimes. FSUW are NOT for entry level dating! These are strong, vibrant, in your face women. They are also the VERY BEST WOMEN in the world! No equals. No competition. No prisoners.

FWIW,
 Ken

[jb]

A very hearty "AMEN~!", brother Ken.

[syd]

First post here!

When asking the question of whether a young girl would be interested in an older man, hearing the opinion of a 24 year old Russian girl is probably the most important opinion you will hear. If you're after someone in their 20s, then listen to someone in their 20s!

Who knows more about how 20 year old girls feel? 20 year old girls, or 50 year old men? 

[I/O]

First post here! Who knows more about how 20 year old girls feel? 20 year old girls, or 50 year old men? 

Maybe, but for the sake of the topic, wouldn't you think that a 50 something year old man who has been married to a 20 something year old woman for the better part of 10 years might know a bit too?

I/O

[KenC]

First post here!

When asking the question of whether a youhng girl would be interested in an older mane, hearing the opinion of a 24 year old Russian girl is probably the most important opinion you will hear. If you're after someone in their 20s, then listen to someone in their 20s!

Who knows more about how 20 year old girls feel? 20 year old girls, or 50 year old men? 

Syd,
Welcome!  I might agree with you if you limit your thoughts to the motivation of this one young woman, but when that opinion also encompasses the thought process of the man it falls way short of the mark.   She also oversteps her level of expertise when she begins pontificating about life together in marriage in a foreign land as she has yet to experience it.  I certainly do not think she speaks for all young RW either as I have lived with one for the past 9 years.
KenC

[syd]

You both have good points. I will crawl back into my hole

[Admin]

I will crawl back into my hole

Why ???

- Dan

[KenC]

You both have good points. I will crawl back into my hole

Syd,
Please don't "crawl back into your hole" as your point of view is welcomed here.  We may not agree with it, but it is always welcomed.
KenC

[Daveman]

Syd,
Welcome.. truly... welcome...  are you in search of a woman from the FSU?  Listen.  Please take what I say here very seriously...  If this little bit of difference in opinion hurt your feelings, you really may want consider carefully if you can handle this quest, and even more seriously whether or not you can handle it if you succeed.

I don't have nearly the experience here as some of the others, but I can honestly tell you that if you get 'hurt' easily... this kind of situation may not be in *your* best interest.  Not a jab, not a cut down to you.. just..  trying to get your thinking on the right path.

Dave

[syd]

I did not mean that literally. I still intend to post here! Thank you for the kind welcome.

Yes I realize this is a huge undertaking and I'm fully prepared for the worst.

[Daveman]

Scott: A heart felt Thank you.  I know I said I wasn't looking for advice, but, you gave me a perspective that I really had not considered.  I have brought her this far, so she should have a say in what will or won't be.  We have set an appointment for three way translation to discuss this, and get it all out in the open, then think about it for a while.  She's 28, soon to be 29 and was married for 4 years when she was very young. So she does bring some real life experience about marriage to the table.

Dan:  Excellent points, all.  You summarized many thoughts I am having about this in a no frills, experienced way.  Thanks.

We should talk within the hour.  I'll try to remember as many as I can, and post her thoughts on this age/death thing.

Dave

[catzenmouse]

I'm fully prepared for the worst.

I see you've done your time with American women...

Syd,

 Why don't you start a topic in this section and introduce your self, tell us a bit about your experience and plans?

Ken

P. S. Welcome!

[I/O]

I see you've done your time with American women...

Geeeeeeeeez that's rough. 

I/O

[ScottinCrimea]

Dave,  29 is light years ahead of 22 or 23 in most cases, especially if she already has the experience of one marriage.  In addition, FSU women at 29 tend to be more mature in their thinking than AW.  She's a big girl now with the right to have her opinion heard.  I'm interested to see how your conversatin with her goes.

[Daveman]

Well, our 'discussion' is complete. 

Scott, she seems to agree with you.

My idea here, was to call her, and very tenderly, and openly discuss and then think about for a few days this topic which has a pretty important bearing on the future of our relationship (are you experienced guys laughing your asses off yet?)

Remember, this is through a translator, so, I will simply relate to you what I got from the conversation.

I began with the softest, most tender voice I could muster, and said "Milaya, I want to discuss some very important concerns about our age difference that could cause us and especially you some very large problems in the future"

She began with one single word.

This word was about 20 seconds long, had many rolling r's, lots of vowel sounds, and some consonants I recognized, but I can't remember ever seeing a word like this in my Russian dictionary.

Rather than attempt to give a play by play of the translated conversation, I will simply state the points she made.  She wasn't angry, or yelling, just.. well.. very serious and speaking very rapidly.  I am paraphrasing a translation, so, this is the best I have and the best I can remember.

1) She cares for me and this is unquestionably *my* fault, or responsibility, or something.

2) The age issue has already been decided.

3) I should have decided my thoughts on this age issue before coming to meet her.  I knew her age from the beginning.  We discussed it before, and it has already been decided.

4) I had no right to come to Russia and *make* her care about me if I had any "problems" with this. (again, my fault she cares... ummm.. okay.. something there had to have been lost in translation)

5) She is not stupid, and has thought carefully about ALL of the realities of our future, and , yep, the age issue has already been decided.

6) She will make her own decisions about our relationship. I am only allowed to decide whether I want her. She will decide for herself if she wants me.

7) She was married before, and knows what she does and doesn't want in her life. I cannot say what is best for her.  In the future we will make 'together' decisions, but this is her decision.

She has agreed to all of my "demands" in our relationship to take it slowly, not meet her family on the first visit (I had a reason for this, but now is not the time), to begin studying English very seriously, so I must now agree to her demand, that only important and good topics will be discussed in the future, not ones which have already been decided.

9) (then in a very sweet and tender voice, different from the rest of the conversation) Miss you, kiss you, send email, call tomorrow! Paka!

Then we hung up. And I just kinda sat there for a while. This certainly wasn't the tender, open discussion I thought it would be.  It was.. different.  I'm not sure whether this kind of very one sided discussion is normal, or if Dante has reawakened and is now composing new chapters, just for me.  Is this a Red Flag?  She's never really completely cut me off and carried the conversation by herself before.

I'm tempted to start the K-1, bring her over here, marry her, subtly rearrange the kitchen each day for a couple of years, then die for spite.

Anyway, there it is.

Dave

[ScottinCrimea]

Wow! a Russian woman that actually agrees with me!  That's a big red flag!  I think you just got a big taste of Russian women 101.  They don't like wishy washy, undecided men.  They like you to step forward, make a decision and stand behind it.  As you have learned, if you aren't willing to do this, they will step in and make the decision for you both.  None of this wimpy AM, "Is that all right with you honey?" business. I think you underestimated her.  Just like you, she knew your ages before you met and made the decision to meet you, so she had already looked at the issue and made her decision.  I can understand her disconcernment that you had not done the same.  It sounds like you have a great woman there but I'm afraid you lost a few points with this discussion.  No problem, it will be easy to get them back as long as you NEVER bring up the age issue again.  Remember, only women have the right to bring up the past (check your manual).  I think as you saw at the end, once the discussion was over, it was back to tenderness.  That's another thing nice about FSU women, once something is decided, they move on.  I've learned with my wife that the time frame for a small quarrel is about two hours and for a major fight about three days.  After that, it's as if it never happened.  I'm often left scratching my head about this as I climb back out of my corner.  I think what gets under my skin the most is that she is right a vast majority of the time, which therefore means I am wrong.  Just one of the "benefits" of marrying someone better than me.

[CaptB]

Wow........gone for a day........and a gazillion posts......on a most popular topic.

I/O,

When addressing me (C/B ?).........at least spell my name right..................."Capt B"

Scott,

Of course I, like most, look back when I was younger........and say "what was I thinking (and occasionally smoking )

I give an RW "newbie" (i.e. never married, 20 something years old, never traveled abroad)
as much of my "ear" on the subjects at hand........as I do "any" newbie" here (American, Russian.......or other). I give the Aussies a few more points.....because they can eat a "vegemite" sandwich.............and actuallly "like it"!!!??!!!!!!!!!

Whether anyone considers that a 5, 10, 15, 20, 25, 30, 35 etc. age difference is the "limit" won't stop many who marry here.........in having a long and full-filling relationship. You only need look at the photos of many married folks on this forum....and see what I see.......happy faces.

Some here will marry closer to their age........and be divorced in a short time. Some will marry with a significant age gap........and be divorced.......also.

Some will marry closer to their age.....and have a long and happy relationship. Some with varrying age gaps.......will also.

Women live (on average) 7 years longer than their spouses. So my wife and I are only seven years appart.  

I could go on and on.......but you can fill in the blanks.

Some here pontificate.....and speak for all......that "all" men want younger women.....period. I have dated older, same and younger..........my choices were NEVER based on age. Well almost. I turned down relationships with several very nice AM women......because I thought we did not have enough common interests to make for a sucessfull relationship. I turned down several younger women......because they wanted children........I alread raised three........I was'nt interested in having more.....at my age. I dated some younger AM.......because they "asked me". They were nice people.......most are still amoung my friends. Most of the women I dated......I still say "hello" to (frienship). I left relationships......because something was lacking...............for "me". It was rarely based on age......accept for my previous statements on that issue.

Doc woody (Witchdoctor)......on the RWG......has a 20 year age difference with his very nice wife. They discussed......they understood.......they prepared.......she will be taken care of.....if he leaves first.........financially. I beive he was 41.....she 21......when they met. Remaining relatively healthy........even with a 20 year difference..........they can expect 30 - 40 years together.

I had a lifeless 10 year first marriage. I would taken even 10.......great years.......in this marriage.......but we could easily have 30+ years.

You could die (you or your young wife) of cancer, car accident.......and too many other reasons.

Life is too short. True happiness is probably rarer.......than what most of life dishes-out.

If you are both aware of the "big picture" in this process..........and are truley happy with each other........the real crime is letting "anyone" else.......convince you you should not be together.

I am not an advocate of "age difference"......................I am advocating keeping an "open mind".................in all things...............in life.


Capt B

[Daveman]

Makes sense, Scott.  Then it has already been decided.  I agree I was absolutely wishy washy on this.  I wasn't really until I met her.. and well.. she's so... tiny.   It makes her seem even younger than she is I guess.  This will be the last personal info open for dissection in open forum.  I hope this helps someone, but I think I should probably keep specifics more private in the future.

But, I will remember this for future reference if we make it through the process. If she loses interest in a few years I'll simply say "sorry dear, our marriage has already been decided... "

Dave

edit for clarification: I don't mind sharing experiences in the least, but giving actual details of a private conversation is probably not a good idea. Kinda like posting a PM into open forum, it just shouldn't be done.

[Admin]

Well, our 'discussion' is complete. 

Scott, she seems to agree with you.

My idea here, was to call her, and very tenderly, and openly discuss and then think about for a few days this topic which has a pretty important bearing on the future of our relationship (are you experienced guys laughing your asses off yet?)

Remember, this is through a translator, so, I will simply relate to you what I got from the conversation.

I began with the softest, most tender voice I could muster, and said "Milaya, I want to discuss some very important concerns about our age difference that could cause us and especially you some very large problems in the future"

She began with one single word.

This word was about 20 seconds long, had many rolling r's, lots of vowel sounds, and some consonants I recognized, but I can't remember ever seeing a word like this in my Russian dictionary.

Rather than attempt to give a play by play of the translated conversation, I will simply state the points she made.  She wasn't angry, or yelling, just.. well.. very serious and speaking very rapidly.  I am paraphrasing a translation, so, this is the best I have and the best I can remember.

1) She cares for me and this is unquestionably *my* fault, or responsibility, or something.

2) The age issue has already been decided.

3) I should have decided my thoughts on this age issue before coming to meet her.  I knew her age from the beginning.  We discussed it before, and it has already been decided.

4) I had no right to come to Russia and *make* her care about me if I had any "problems" with this. (again, my fault she cares... ummm.. okay.. something there had to have been lost in translation)

5) She is not stupid, and has thought carefully about ALL of the realities of our future, and , yep, the age issue has already been decided.

6) She will make her own decisions about our relationship. I am only allowed to decide whether I want her. She will decide for herself if she wants me.

7) She was married before, and knows what she does and doesn't want in her life. I cannot say what is best for her.  In the future we will make 'together' decisions, but this is her decision.

She has agreed to all of my "demands" in our relationship to take it slowly, not meet her family on the first visit (I had a reason for this, but now is not the time), to begin studying English very seriously, so I must now agree to her demand, that only important and good topics will be discussed in the future, not ones which have already been decided.

9) (then in a very sweet and tender voice, different from the rest of the conversation) Miss you, kiss you, send email, call tomorrow! Paka!

Then we hung up. And I just kinda sat there for a while. This certainly wasn't the tender, open discussion I thought it would be.  It was.. different.  I'm not sure whether this kind of very one sided discussion is normal, or if Dante has reawakened and is now composing new chapters, just for me.  Is this a Red Flag?  She's never really completely cut me off and carried the conversation by herself before.

I'm tempted to start the K-1, bring her over here, marry her, subtly rearrange the kitchen each day for a couple of years, then die for spite.

Anyway, there it is.

Dave

Dave,

I have to admit to chuckling as I was reading your account. I can imagine you felt a little ... surprised maybe (for lack of a better word) at the direct and unabashed nature of her position.

A friend of mine and I were having lunch a short time ago and discussing our common experiences being married to RW. We agreed that one of the more refreshing characteristics is an almost total lack of pretension in the communications. She know what she wants - and she will state it matter-of-factly - and now let's move on. Kind of refreshing, when you think about it.

It doesn't mean you necessarily agree - it simply means you know where she stands and if you have a different view, you are expected to state it - right then and there.

Of course, not all RW are so direct and forthright - but I have to say, it is a pretty consistent characteristic in those I've met - both romantically and not.

As always - FWIW

- Dan

[ScottinCrimea]

Capt B, I can certainly see that you keep an open mind in all things if you dated some younger "AM's" because they asked you.  

[catzenmouse]

Capt B,

 I was gonna ask about your openmindeness but Scott already did. Please elaborate on these relationships you had... 

Dave,

 Yes, I admit to laughing as well. You just had your wish/wash twisted into a knot and got spanked with it! When the bruising subsides you'll finally have the beginnings of an understanding of some of the stuff we talk about now.

 She sounds like a keeper.

Ken

[Gator]

Dave,

Agree with everyone.  You can not be “wishy washy” with Russians, women or men.  They are pragmatic people, and when an issue is settled, it is not to be revisited.

I have a question.  You say you demanded to take it slowly, to which she agreed.  Now after one meeting (?) you are contemplating a K-1.  Am I missing something?

Your woman sounds wonderful.

[Daveman]

I have a question.  You say you demanded to take it slowly, to which she agreed.  Now after one meeting (?) you are contemplating a K-1.  Am I missing something?

Gator,
I was joking about the K-1 in the post above.   I haven't even met her family and we cannot communicate freely.  That word "demands" was hers.  I don't recall demanding anything actually.  To me, it was a normal discussion about about those things before.  I was surprised to hear the word 'demands' come back at me.

Ken,
Yep, I got spanked.  Not again though.  This is two good lessons in two days.  Rudeness, and wishy washy... I won't forget either.  Now to go soak my rear in the tub for a while.. 

[Kuna]

Yep, I got spanked.  Not again though.  This is two good lessons in two days.  Rudeness, and wishy washy... I won't forget either.  Now to go soak my rear in the tub for a while.. 

Dave... I'm not quite a newbie anymore but I still know I'm very much a novice.  Let me share one thing I've learned though.  When you do "take control" and make decisions make sure you're prepared to lock horns with your lady every now and then... not too often... just often enough to remind you that she still has strong opinions.

I feel incredibly fortunate to have found my girl.  She wants me to make the decisions and get things moving but she'll always expect that I make the decisions she would make anyway.

I will say that there's never any rudeness when we have little "debates" but there is a whole world of "emotional manipulation".  "Koooon-ahhh, you want this too yes?" (My name's not Kuna but you get the idea right???)

This reminds me of a friend that got married to an Aussie girl and on their wedding night she said to him that he can make ALL of the big decisions and she will make ALL of the small decisions.  She did add though that she'll let him know a big decision comes up!   

Kuna

[I/O]

Dave: Not to be to much on the "I told you so" line, but remember a couple of PM's.   

She has hit you with the normal Russian/Siberian/Omsk  big time.  Don't make anything of her using the word "Demands", that is simply a translation of "Requests" and is a good example of how many misunderstand the perception of "Directness". 

From what I read, she is a normal "Omsk" girl who knows what she wants. At 29 and having been married, she'll have well and truely made up her mind regarding many things you are still thinking about.

Herein lies, IMO the real equality the I believe Russian women understand much better than many others, that is, if you make a decision and take a lead in a given situation, she will respect that.  But if she makes a decision regarding something such as you have outlined here, she expects that to be EQUALLY respected. Most importantly, they DO expect decisions to be made period. 

FWIW and from what I can see, you've got a keeper, so don't mess with her and you'll always have a keeper.

I/O