'Code of Conduct' for Men....

[Fiorella]

Where the heck did this vitriol come from?  No one here said anything of the sort.  If you took the time to read this forum, you would see that as a group we condemn this attitude.  In fact, this is exactly the tye of attitude that we are trying to change with the code of conduct.

But really, the bottom line is that no one can buy anything that isn't for sale.  As long as there are bad women who are willing to do anything for money, there are bad women who are willing to buy.  It's a problem on both sides, so attaching all of the blame to one side and blasting out at them won't solve anything.

If you look better you will see that I am on this board long time more then you and if you don't like to face the true it is your only problem.

Not buyers - not sellers. Happily some civilized countries already understood it and have laws that punish these who buy and not these who sell.

[Fiorella]

Really? I'm Russian woman but I never have had such problem to prove who I'm  even living in America. In you opinion, Fiorella, I'm a woman who  is "happy to have a second-hand shirt but live in Great America" but it is your opinion of Russian woman but not American woman or man.

Olga.

Yes, you are happy to have a hut. Good american wife.

[LEGAL]

Fiorella,

It is just your personal opinion and nothing more,  opinion of Russian woman who is against international marriage mafia  and because of it she is trying to write lampoons using a "official politics of AntiDate"  as a cover for her improper activity.

Bill's words are for you:

"Who is slandering Russian women??? YOU ARE!!!" 

Olga.

[Chelchov]

I am beginning to understand that this project is all about a compile of all of facts/information past posts about Russia and its RW.  Then, establishing codes for proper behavior and etiquette of being in Russia to avoid cultural misunderstanding and trouble.  I support fully of that.  It's only serve those people who are serious about it and do their homework very well.  I agree that we should strive to be an excellent representation of the Western world by trying to confine to the Russian standards and respect their culture.  I have no problem with that.   

In fact, there's nothing you can do to change those clueless or those egotistical guys with money who live in the world of delusion.     

I have my own ethics and integrity that is pretty much in blend with a typical code of conducts.  I fully support a typical code of conducts that demands honesty and excellent integrity.  However, I have problems with people who just use code of conducts for their own advantage and personal agenda.         

Internet is full of code of conduct of Russian women - just look at multiple so-called "antiscam" sites and marriage agencies and you will see it.

It only depends on how strongly conduct serves the main agenda of each sites and their owners.   

I am very glad to know that you are officially a new member of my ignore list.  I don't have time and energy to deal with all negative people who keep slandering on and on while talking like a typical politician about AD like yourself.     

[Jooky]

Regarding the Code of Conduct for men: There are many who feel it is unethical

1. For a man to pursue a woman much younger than himself.
2. For a man to visit more than one woman.
3. For a man to write to correspond with many women.
4. For a man to pursue a pretty, young woman from a poor country.

Are the men appointed to determine this code universally ethical? Laws already exist for criminal acts. What is 'proper' conduct is subjective.  

A few years ago I first discovered the RWG. There I saw some conflict and hash criticism, but my general impression was that this was a decent group of guys with the intention to help. If today was my first visit to these sites, my first impression would that of a madhouse to steer clear of. It is truly sad how these boards have devolved.

As for respect: The actions of Anti Date, admitted hypocricy and vengeful motives, engender disrespect for the women of Russia. If the purpose is to drive men away from Russian women, the mission is accomplished. If the purpose is to attain respect, mission is failed.

Respect is earned, not demanded.

[Admin]

Dan, you know very well, what is official politics of AntiDate.

Antidate is fighting against ALL forms of scam, including cases of men and women. Also we don't accept women who are ready to go on anything possible and not possible for get foreign man and get rid off their country. Unfortunatelly they still do exist and it is sad to see how they are ready to lick everyone's ass for a few dollars or even for a compliment.
 

Fiorella,

I actually do NOT know Antidate's politics. I have written here everything I know about the genesis, and current operations, of Antidate. I believe that at least a part of the reason AD was started was to provide counterbalance to sites which have blacklists of RW. I think you also (later or earlier, I do not know) started your own blacklist to try to warn RW from men who are 'sex tourists.'

Quite truthfully, that is the extent of my knowledge about AD's efforts.

I remain curious about your 'standards' expected of RW? Do you have anything, in writing, which states what AD thinks are proper behaviors for RW - or improper behaviors ?

For example, is it AD's position that a RW may ask for money from a WM in their first correspondence ?

Does AD have any policy, or position, on whether (or when) a RW should decide to become intimate with a western suitor ?

How does AD feel about a RW divulging information about past lovers - or STD's - or abortions - or marriages/divorces ?

Does AD do anything if/when it is discovered that a RW has NOT followed the 'standards' expected by AD ?

What of your Blacklist? Do you have written guidelines on HOW someone is added to the list? What about guidelines for someone to follow so that they may be removed if wrongly-accused?

And finally - Is Antidate, as an organization/collection, sincerely interested in working with us to a common objective designed to be beneficial to both men and women ?

The answer to that last one is pretty important to me.

At this point, Antidate has apparently taken material from RWD about at least a couple of our members, and subjected them to ridicule and humiliation at Antidate. Are those the behaviors of someone to be trusted?

What do you think Fiorella ?

- Dan

[catzenmouse]

Regarding the Code of Conduct for men: There are many who feel it is unethical

1. For a man to pursue a woman much younger than himself.
2. For a man to visit more than one woman.
3. For a man to write to correspond with many women.
4. For a man to pursue a pretty, young woman from a poor country.

Are the men appointed to determine this code universally ethical? Laws already exist for criminal acts. What is 'proper' conduct is subjective.

We can in no way get into these "grey" areas with a code of conduct/behavior. These are personal choices for both parties to work on themselves.

Respect is earned, not demanded.

Exactly!

[Bruno]

Why? Because these men want to have a feeling of full safety and impunity in all they do. It is Russian woman who MUST to prove every day and every hour, with every step of her.

That she is not a scammer.
That she is not a golddigger.
That she is not a GCG

and many-many more.

And western men don't MUST anything. They are good decent gentlemen with dollars in their pockets and they can do all they want.

Where the heck did this vitriol come from?  No one here said anything of the sort.  If you took the time to read this forum, you would see that as a group we condemn this attitude.  In fact, this is exactly the tye of attitude that we are trying to change with the code of conduct.

Agree with Scottie...

Example : take a look at http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=4379.0 ... a new guy accuse a girl to be a scammer... nothing asked to the girl but it is asked to the men to prove it...

So, it is not the practice here to believe something without evidence... to accuse someone without proof... the biggest population in our scam section is agency, not people !

[Jooky]

We can in no way get into these "grey" areas with a code of conduct/behavior.

That's the problem. Who decides what is a grey area? For many the issues I listed are black and white.

Let's take a hot issue on this board: posting photos. Should this be in the code? I personally see no problem with posting photos. Millions of people see my ugly mug walking down the street, eating, drinking, with my arm around a girl and so on every day. If a few more see me doing the same on an internet forum I don't care. If someone doesn't want to be seen in my company, they would not be in my company. Simple as that. Yet, some will say that posting photos on the net is unethical. Ultimately who is to decide?

Let's take an extreme example: sending naked photos to a lady. I would bet most everyone here can agree that is improper conduct. However, I know as a fact that there are women in Russia that find that acceptable and would marry a man who would do such a thing.

As you say:

These are personal choices for both parties to work on themselves.

[Admin]

We can in no way get into these "grey" areas with a code of conduct/behavior.

That's the problem. Who decides what is a grey area? For many the issues I listed are black and white.

Let's take a hot issue on this board: posting photos. Should this be in the code? I personally see no problem with posting photos. Millions of people see my ugly mug walking down the street, eating, drinking, with my arm around a girl and so on every day. If a few more see me doing the same on an internet forum I don't care. If someone doesn't want to be seen in my company, they would not be in my company. Simple as that. Yet, some will say that posting photos on the net is unethical. Ultimately who is to decide?

Let's take an extreme example: sending naked photos to a lady. I would bet most everyone here can agree that is improper conduct. However, I know as a fact that there are women in Russia that find that acceptable and would marry a man who would do such a thing.

As you say:

These are personal choices for both parties to work on themselves.

Any my bet is there are probably not a large proportion of guys who are aware that posting someone's photo, or other personal information without their consent, on the public internet is an illegal activity (in the US). It is an actionable claim in most states for 'invasion of privacy.' Contrary to popular belief, it *is* possible to violate a law even if the information is true - if it is a private fact and published without consent. This merely addresses the legalities, and not the ethics of posting the photo - but the legalities are reasonably clear. [Note: I am *not* an attorney and nobody should rely on my comments as legal opinion or fact. If in doubt, contact a licensed attorney]

Jooky - why don't you just relax and see what comes out of the effort? Would you begrudge the efforts of the group who is working to try to develop a seedstock for review?

- Dan

[2tallbill]

I believe that something usefull could be put together with this panel.

I can also see how it could be ten thousand page document with no focus and conflicting ideas and possibly useless.

If I was on this panel (I don't want to and don't have time) I would make something like the RWD Ten Commandments. Maybe even in that format. Then with a paragraph below explaining it. But really and ideally it should be so simple as to not be able to be misunderstood. Like the RWD Ten Commandments it should really not be something that could be argued about.

For example Mens Code

1.  You should not be married and pursue RW
2.  Tell the truth
3.  Don't use 10 year old photos before you became bald and fat
4.  Don't post pictures of women to make your trip report exciting no matter how many guys ask you to.
    Because dude you are not 10 years old
5.  Don't send naked pictures of yourself sporting wood in your introduction letter
6.  Don't write unless you are actually prepared to make a trip
7.  18 year old women are actually girls
8.  Don't subtract 40 pounds from your weight in your profile
9.  etc you get my point
10. etc you get my point

Something so simple that make sense. Short and pithy.

Just my two (not as pissed off as before) kopecks

Bill

[Jooky]

why don't you just relax and see what comes out of the effort?

I'm certainly relaxed. I do however feel free to voice my opinions about this issue. If you didn't want opinions, why start the topic? If you don't like my opinions, you are welcome to censor and silence me.

[Gator]

Bill,

Thanks for the input.  I admire your ability to not let this eat away at you.

[Gator]

Jooky,

I am surprised to see you take this position.  Is this what you did in your T/Rs, without the consent of the many women whose photos you attached?

Let's take an extreme example: sending naked photos to a lady...I know as a fact that there are women in Russia that find that acceptable and would marry a man who would do such a thing.

Point taken, and it proves that there is someone for anyone.  These two people deserve each other.  While you may know of one of these cases, your intellect and sophistication suggest that he/she is not your close friend.  I have received such unsolicited photos from two RW, and both times I lost all interest.  It seemed both trashy and desperate.  Other men may seek a rendezvous with such women, but I doubt you would choose such over a woman with pride in herself and her bright mind.

[Admin]

why don't you just relax and see what comes out of the effort?

I'm certainly relaxed. I do however feel free to voice my opinions about this issue. If you didn't want opinions, why start the topic? If you don't like my opinions, you are welcome to censor and silence me.

Jooky,

I have no real problem with your "opinion" - except that the energy investment seems out of proportion to the stimulus. Whenever I see that sort of imbalance, it makes me wonder, "why"?

The group is working to develop a path forward and a draft. They will present their products for broader review when available. If you want to participate directly to make a contribution, contact Gator and see if he can use the assistance.

As for why I started the topic - I wanted to make the community at RWD aware of what we were doing.

Tell me - why do you reference "censor" and "silence" in your message ? Have I given you reason to be concerned that I would act in that way ?

- Dan

[Daveman]

Respect is earned, not demanded.

Normally, in a normal situation, which even remotely resembles so much as a hint of normality, I would agree with this statement (only a different twist)...

but get away from the emotions for a moment.. and think about this....

American women understand American man behavior, at least partly..  so when we do something goofy, or whatever, they merely roll their eyes at us.  They don't see our behavior as rudeness..  Surely there are some rude men having real rude behavior in America, but just normally.  What do our women do most of the day? They roll their eyes at what buffoons we are.

I would guess that Russian women have this exact behavior with their Russian men..  they roll their eyes at them, because they understand them.

Now, in our situation.. We have behavior which is no big deal to us, but is very disrespectful to a Russian woman.  She doesn't roll her eyes at us, she becomes offended because by HER definition, we are being rude.

moving ahead... The western man has this behavior again and again because he just doesn't quite get that he's being disrespectful in the eyes of a Russian woman.. of course, she's offended.

So, what does anyone do who feels disrespected??.... of course.. DEMANDS respect.

We have to drop the male logic for a minute and really grasp what the hell the real problem here is.

It's not that the AD ladies are insane freaks... they're really not... the basic underlying impetus for their behavior is that they FEEL disrespected as women.  So, they demand respect.. we still have the same behavior.. so they demand more loudly...  same behavior... more LOUDLY.... guys, until we change our behavior, or they change their definitions of disrespect... or maybe, god forbid, a combination of BOTH..  we're not going to get anywhere.  (Think about that as you propose on that first visit.. :-))) ) 

If we want to be in relationships with Russian women, we must change our behavior a little... (every married man here has ADMITTED to this a gazillion times)...  if they want to relate to us, they must try to change the way they perceive our behavior.  This is true with marriage... or friends on the internet.

Now the different twist... I think respect should be given to every single person we ever come in contact with... until that respect is *unearned*.  Respect, like love, simply grows larger with time.

perhaps merely a few more useless thoughts... but maybe not.

[Rvrwind]

And now Kvinnas shadow Fiorella shows up. like I didn't see that comin'.

Quite truthfully, that is the extent of my knowledge about AD's efforts.

I remain curious about your 'standards' expected of RW? Do you have anything, in writing, which states what AD thinks are proper behaviors for RW - or improper behaviors ?

For example, is it AD's position that a RW may ask for money from a WM in their first correspondence ?

Does AD have any policy, or position, on whether (or when) a RW should decide to become intimate with a western suitor ?

How does AD feel about a RW divulging information about past lovers - or STD's - or abortions - or marriages/divorces ?

Does AD do anything if/when it is discovered that a RW has NOT followed the 'standards' expected by AD ?

What of your Blacklist? Do you have written guidelines on HOW someone is added to the list? What about guidelines for someone to follow so that they may be removed if wrongly-accused?

And finally - Is Antidate, as an organization/collection, sincerely interested in working with us to a common objective designed to be beneficial to both men and women ?

Your kidding right??
I have never read anything on AntiDate that would constitute what could be considered guidelines. A few of my lady friends have read over there & you really don't want to hear their opinions, they were far from flattering in fact downright insulting.
They have no code of conduct for themselves or their members. They have written no rules regarding posting men to their blacklist. No guidelines for verifying information. The only stand they take is the stand that American men should not even be allowed to date Russian women much less marry them.
They are a bunch of middle aged, communist holdover malcontents that are pi$$ed because some of their country women had the brains, or should I say the audacity, to accept the love of a foreign man & leave Russia & its infestation of AntiDate hoodlums to fester in their own pi$$!!!
Am I getting pi$$ed, hell yes!!! I'm bloody tired of this brainless twit Fioralla that for 3 years has been calling me an American & even though I am not an American I am also pi$$ed that she keeps blaming Americans for all her woes. More Europeans come to Russia than Americans by far, but it seems that if you have a hate on for America its okay to blame them.
As far as having to fight the CGC & Scam labels. Well your fellow Russians brought that on you, nobody else. If Russians would learn to live within' the law like the rest of the world & follow the rules of civilized countries then maybe they might build some trust. But as long as your fellow country men & women are screwing over everybody they meet, expect to be thrown in the same pot just as you do me by continually calling me & labelling me an American. Don't blame us for your sisters misdeeds, blame her!!!
To add to that, if people want to sleep together & have sex on their first , third or twelve date, what f***ing business is it of yours??? Are you the morality Police??? Get a life & mind your own friggin' business & the world would be a much better place!!!
Sheeesh, reminds me of a bunch of Babushkas snoopin' around my back yard to see what gossip they can dig up & then twisting it all around to make the story sound better!!!

[WmGO]

A general common sense "code" is a fair idea. Allowing middle aged xenophobic Communist holdover malcontents to be involved in writing it is not.

[BillyB]

Regarding the Code of Conduct for men: There are many who feel it is unethical

1. For a man to pursue a woman much younger than himself.
2. For a man to visit more than one woman.
3. For a man to write to correspond with many women.
4. For a man to pursue a pretty, young woman from a poor country.

Are the men appointed to determine this code universally ethical? Laws already exist for criminal acts. What is 'proper' conduct is subjective.  

Good points and critisism is needed.

Grey areas are just that and should remain that way with no clear answers. Treating a woman you're visiting and her family with respect and like human beings are clear answers.

Whether every guy/woman participating on this code of conduct is ethical or not is not a big concern to me as long as there are enough ethical people in on the final draft. Common sense should prevail.

[Rvrwind]

I like the idea of guidelines better, that small change & further explanation of the goal has served to sway my opinion, a little. I'll wait to see what comes out before I give any firm judgements. I do agree that allowing the AntiDate Achtivists to participate is way wrong.
In fact I'm thinkin' that whole crew should be bloody banned & there IP's blocked so they can't even read this board. My patience is totally worn out with that bunch of Babushkas.
Their poster girls, Kvinna & Fiorella, actually are making western women look good!!! Damn, now I'll have to cut my tongue out for saying that!

[Jooky]

Gator, I honestly do not see the big issue with posting photos. Of course if I posted a photo and was asked to remove it, I would do so. Many photos of me have been taken. They of course are shown to people without my consent. They have been posted on the net without my consent. I don't mind. I just don't see the big deal. That's my opinion.

Regarding what I've posted in the past, some women knew what I posted, some didn't. I gave my honest impressions. I did not attempt to harm or slander anyone and I am not ashamed of my actions. People who meet me and know me are free to discuss me and show photos without my prior consent. That's life.

My point is simply that this issue about photos is a grey area as far as people's opinions go.

While you may know of one of these cases

I know of many, and yes they are not my friends or associates.

Have I given you reason to be concerned that I would act in that way?

Honestly, yes. Your actions in the past give me reason to believe you would.

When you say things like except that the energy investment seems out of proportion to the stimulus I have to question your motivations, and I do believe that you are a very political person. I am not.

I take issue with Kvinna's hypocricy about being associated with you and you question me about it. I explained. I disagree with this Code of Conduct. I think it's fruitless. I've posted what... three or four brief and calm posts in this thread. It didn't take much energy or effort and they seem to have been well received, as intended, by a few of the guys involved in this effort. Others have posted much more and are more violently opposed to this idea. My involvement in this thread is minimal. Why am I singled out and told basically to 'relax and shut up'?

Now I have spent more energy on this thread that I hoped for, so I will say good luck and goodbye. ;-)

[Rvrwind]

Jooky,no body has the right to ask you to remove any pictures except the people in the pictures!! I feel the ame way about Bills pictures. None of the women whinning were in the pictures & if they were I am sure an email to Bill would have had them removed if requested.
Were dealing with a buch of malcontents with sad little Babushka lives that get a kick out of being the morality police when in fact it is none of their damn business!!
I see them everyday sitting on the benches outside the front door of our building eyeballing everybody who goes in & out & gossiping with their buddies. They got no other life other than watching Dallas & being judgmental & jealous because women they know are now living the good life & they are stuck in this rat infested garbage pit!! But I suppose thats the Americans fault too.
Life just sucks don't it?

[Admin]

Gator, I honestly do not see the big issue with posting photos. Of course if I posted a photo and was asked to remove it, I would do so. Many photos of me have been taken. They of course are shown to people without my consent. They have been posted on the net without my consent. I don't mind. I just don't see the big deal. That's my opinion.

Regarding what I've posted in the past, some women knew what I posted, some didn't. I gave my honest impressions. I did not attempt to harm or slander anyone and I am not ashamed of my actions. People who meet me and know me are free to discuss me and show photos without my prior consent. That's life.

While you may know of one of these cases

I know of many, and yes they are not my friends or associates.

Have I given you reason to be concerned that I would act in that way?

Honestly, yes. Your actions in the past give me reason to believe you would.

When you say things like except that the energy investment seems out of proportion to the stimulus I have to question your motivations, and I do believe that you are a very political person. I am not.

I take issue with Kvinna's hypocricy about being associated with you and you question me about it. I explained. I disagree with this Code of Conduct. I think it's fruitless. I've posted what... three or four brief and calm posts in this thread. It didn't take much energy or effort and they seem to have been well received, as intended, by a few of the guys involved in this effort. Others have posted much more and are more violently opposed to this idea. My involvement in this thread is minimal. Why am I singled out and told basically to 'relax and shut up'?

Jooky,

In what way do you see me as "very political" ? That is completely opposed to my self-view, and am interested in why/how you arrived at that perspective.

Part of the reason your posts draw my attention, I suppose, is references such as; "Kvinna's hypocricy about being associated with you." I have already explained to you that there is no "association" - at least, in any form of definition that I know. Yet, you persist in bringing it up. Why?

You suggest that you fear being censored or silenced by me, and yet there have been fewer than 5 people censored or silenced here in more than 2 years - and those, only in extreme circumstances. Your fear seems, IMO, irrational.

So long as you make comments which seem non sequitor or lacking basis - particularly as they may reflect poorly on RWD or me - I will probably challenge you on them. You should expect it.

- Dan

[ScottinCrimea]

What I don't understand is what anyone feels they have to lose by this effort.  Why the big opposition?  If they don't agree, they can ignore it.  These are just common sense suggestions, guys!  What are you afraid of?  If some people here with some experience want to offer some help to those not wishing to show disrespect to FSUW, let them make the effort. Of course no matter what is decided on, someone will always have a disagreement with some part of it.  Seeing people like Jooky give some extreme examples or examples in obvious grey areas to try to prove a point is not productive.  The people asked to put this together aren't fools.  If you want to complain, why not wait at least until the first draft is completed and then offer your input and suggestions like an adult instead of crying that perhaps some of your freedom to make an ass of yourself will be taken away.

[Jooky]

Scott,

My examples were not meant to be extreme or unusual. Those were off the top of my head ethics related issues that have been brought up over and over on these boards. I think this is a pointless and silly exercise, but I'm in not in huge opposition to it.

Dan, Argh. Reread my posts on this thread. Part of the reason your posts draw my attention, I suppose, is references such as; "Kvinna's hypocricy about being associated with you."

I said nothing about you, RWD or Kvinna on this thread until you singled me out stating my suspicious energy invested in this thread. As I pointed out I put little energy into it, now I am, much more that I desire. ;-)

Frankly, I feel you are responding to our private exchanges and not what I am posting here. These are unrelated in my mind.

Why do I see an association between you and Kvinna? Because you've stated you are working on mutually benifical projects together. Because she's listed at the top of your comittee for Codes of Conduct. Because she assisted with the Jim's list sucks project with you. Perhaps I am misinformed.

Anyways, that was not the point I was making to Kvinna. My point to her was that if she is black listing Tall Bill for 'encouraging sex tourism' (read the thread on Anti Date, he is not black listed for posting photos), why doesn't she black list sites like this which in her mind likewise encourage sex tourism?

She agreed that sites like this encourage sex tourism. Her answer was that she had 'use' for you, but not for Tall Bill. Read what she said. That likewise implies an association, like it or not.

I don't fear being silenced. Now I will really sign off. I gave my opinions on this subject. I came here in support of Tall Bill who I feel was being maligned. That's the only reason I've been reading here the past few days. I read a few threads and gave my opinions. Nothing unusal. No extraordinary effort. You're trying to embroil me in something beyond this which I find strange and yes, political. No thanks.