'Code of Conduct' for Men....

[Admin]

Scott,

My examples were not meant to be extreme or unusual. Those were off the top of my head ethics related issues that have been brought up over and over on these boards. I think this is a pointless and silly exercise, but I'm in not in huge opposition to it.

Dan, Argh. Reread my posts on this thread. Part of the reason your posts draw my attention, I suppose, is references such as; "Kvinna's hypocricy about being associated with you."

I said nothing about you, RWD or Kvinna on this thread until you singled me out stating my suspicious energy invested in this thread. As I pointed out I put little energy into it, now I am, much more that I desire. ;-)

Frankly, I feel you are responding to our private exchanges and not what I am posting here. These are unrelated in my mind.

Why do I see an association between you and Kvinna? Because you've stated you are working on mutually benifical projects together. Because she's listed at the top of your comittee for Codes of Conduct. Because she assisted with the Jim's list sucks project with you. Perhaps I am misinformed.

Anyways, that was not the point I was making to Kvinna. My point to her was that if she is black listing Tall Bill for 'encouraging sex tourism' (read the thread on Anti Date, he is not black listed for posting photos), why doesn't she black list sites like this which in her mind likewise encourage sex tourism?

She agreed that sites like this encourage sex tourism. Her answer was that she had 'use' for you, but not for Tall Bill. Read what she said. That likewise implies an association, like it or not.

I don't fear being silenced. Now I will really sign off. I gave my opinions on this subject. I came here in support of Tall Bill who I feel was being maligned. That's the only reason I've been reading here the past few days. I read a few threads and gave my opinions. Nothing unusal. No extraordinary effort. You're trying to embroil me in something beyond this which I find strange and yes, political. No thanks.

Jooky,

Signing off or not, several of your allegations deserve a response.

Re: "Association" with Kvinna. Kvinna was invited to play a part in the Agency Code of Ethics. She reviewed the draft, made a few comments - some were accepted - some were declined - and that was the end of it. Why? Because we wanted to cover ALL the possible bases, and we all felt that Kvinna brought a perspective (no value judgment) which was different than ours and offered the possibility to 'catch' something we missed. We put aside a great many 'injuries' of the past, in an effort to develop something we found meritorious - just as in this case.

I make no apologies for our efforts to try to engage the Antidate team to try to understand them better - and to help them understand us better, if they choose. I wish the understanding had grown more deeply, in the hopes we could avert things such as this incident with Bill. Over time, perhaps it is possible. Clearly, it does not exist yet.

Re: Kvinna at the top of the list. You *seriously* put stock in which name was listed first as having great significance?!? Sheez! I made the announcement and said new names would be added - TO THE BOTTOM OF THE LIST. Shall we make something of the fact that KenC was toward the bottom of the list ?!?

Re: The Sucks site you mentioned. Yes, you are both badly misinformed and sadly mistaken - as to any "association" and to the involvement you imply I had in that site. I have already addressed this ad nauseum for anyone caring to find it.

Re: Embroil you. Odd. You are the one consistently ADDING to the list of issues in the exchange - but it is ME trying to embroil YOU in something "political." Cute effort, but fairly transparent.

- Dan

[jb]

Scott,

What I don't understand is what anyone feels they have to lose by this effort.  Why the big opposition?

I think it's pretty simple, people fear being forced to comply to a set of standards not of their own choosing.  That's pretty normal.  We have also seen with many eyes, the various non-standards of AD, it seems they operate pretty loose and floppy, and most men do not necessarily agree that what is good for the goose is not also good for the gander.  Several guys have commented on the double standard.  It's also my main objection to the co-joined efforts with kivnna's board,,, frankly I don't view her, or AD as trustworthy partners.  They tend to lie and make stuff up as they go. 

Kivnna comes on here and acts like a troll...  If it walks like a troll, if it talks like a troll, if it acts like a troll,,, most likely it is a troll.  In the past few days I have seen more trollish behaivor out of kivanna, and now, her shadow Forilla, than anyone before.  Get it through your heads, these trolls do not have any interest in furthering any agenda other than their own.

Play their games at your own risk.

[Jooky]

Jesus, Dan. You came to me in PMs. You started something against me in this thread. You asked me to answer your questions. I did. I'm not inviting a discussion with you. You are embroiling me. Please knock it off. I will.

[Makkin]

Hello Dan,

  I look forward to the possible alliance and the understanding it may bring hopefully,
  It does seem like a good idea to me to put things on the table and listen to all sides in hopes of learning more on the subject.

  I would be glad to know that I represent myself,country,state,family,and a host of other intities in the proper way when meeting FSU women and the people at large. Nothing could be more negative to myself than to not follow an agreed on behavior in these regards.

Thanks,

Makkin

[ScottinCrimea]

I think it's pretty simple, people fear being forced to comply to a set of standards not of their own choosing.  That's pretty normal. 

     jb, please show me anywhere that it was said that anyone would be forced to comply.  Do you feel forced to comply with the 10 commandments listed here?  So what's the big difference?  I'm seeing way too much paranoia here and no, that's not normal.
     It seems that the fear you and others have concerns Kvinna's involvement and that she and her new breed of feminazis will dominate the process.  Give the others on the committee some credit.  They are not going to allow this to happen, and if it looks like it is heading in that direction, we are allowed to have feedback to kick them back in the right direction.  Based on what I have seen her and her cronies post here, I am in total agreement with you that Kvinna doesn't have her head on straight and seems to prefer being a threat to us rather than a contributor, but others who have had dealings with her seem to feel that she has something she can contribute to the process, so I will defer to them.  If we find that she is disrupting the process rather than contributing to it, we always have the option to exclude her, but I agree with Dan that if she can be civil and productive rather than destructive, she does have some good to offer.

[WmGO]

Here is a Little Detente for consideration: RWD allow input of AD posters who prove that they are the same as the beautiful sensous and sexy avatar photos they have    If they are fat masculine ugly babushka woman then they cannot join in the fun 

[Bruno]

They are a bunch of middle aged, communist holdover malcontents that are pi$$ed because some of their country women had the brains, or should I say the audacity, to accept the love of a foreign man & leave Russia & its infestation of AntiDate hoodlums to fester in their own pi$$!!!

Richard, if i was you, i will choose to moderate my tone... Have you really participate in antidate or read it ?

Several ladies there are married with some of our members here... like here, you have on AD a few big mouth who make a lot of noise but they are not all bad... By example Zmejka who have post in the Bill topic is located in Holland, and she is far to be middle aged...

Now, let see who have post on the AD topic related to Bill... 2 from France , 1 from Norway, 4 from Russia Moscow, 1 from Ukraine, 1 from Manchoria, 1 from Australia, 1 from Demmark, 1 from Holland, ... no need to continue the 20 other page of the topic... you can clearly see that a lot of girls have leave Russia, possible that a lot of them are married...

What i see is that you have become anti-russia after your administratif problem... you pest again russia now and critic it... but when you choose to live in a other country that your own country, you need to adapt... it is you who need to change, not the country... Russia seem like hell for you but million of people life happily in Russia... and a lot of them have no problem...

You have the same attitude that the AD ladies that you critic... they read the trip report of Albert, and we are all sex tourist... you read post from Kvinna and Fiorella and all AD ladies are femininazi...

Read the Bill topic on AD... some ladies have partially support Bill ( by example these from Australia )... some are good like we have good people here... and the few on both side who are bad are usually these who have the more big mounth...

Insult lead to nothing... maybe to a more bad situation where the few good women on AD will be shocked by post like your and join force against us... same there, we have allies... don't turn them against us...

[jb]

ScottinCrimea,

The 10 Commandents are informational, not influential.  The commandments are not intended to dictate terms of conduct, merely to suggest what a man should be aware of as he travels to the FSU.  There is a difference.

[Admin]

ScottinCrimea,

The 10 Commandents are informational, not influential.  The commandments are not intended to dictate terms of conduct, merely to suggest what a man should be aware of as he travels to the FSU.  There is a difference.

John,

I am not so sure. The guideline under development will never be something which could be enforced - and I do not think Gator is intending it to "dictate terms of conduct" (emphasis on the DICTATE).

I think Scott had it correct - they are (or will be) analogous to the 10 'Commandments' (I have always disliked that term in this context).

To check, we can simply ask Gator for his 'vision' and I think he will tell us.

- Dan

[jb]

Frankly, Dan,  I think kivanna will flake out on you, there will be no valuable input from A-D... Merely future demands.  I could be wrong,,, but I doubt it.

[Admin]

Frankly, Dan,  I think kivanna will flake out on you, there will be no valuable input from A-D... Merely future demands.  I could be wrong,,, but I doubt it.

John,

You may be correct. There are, as stated up-thread, two separate issues. One is Kvinna's participation. The other is the merit of the code/standard/guideline/suggestion/whatever.

I think the 'product' has merit - and I hope Kvinna participates productively throughout.

- Dan

[TexasBoar]

I think the 'product' has merit - and I hope Kvinna participates productively throughout.

- Dan

The product might, although as I've said, those who need it the most are arguably the least likely to either read or heed it.  However, I have developed a deep and abiding respect for Gator during my time here, and look forward to whatever he has to say on the subject.

As for Kvinna . . . sheeeesh, Dan.  Doesn't anyone around here know how to admit they've shot themselves in the foot? Did you really think posting her involvement---in ANY numerical position---immediately following her making such a complete and total horse's a$$ of herself was going to be received positively?

~Boar

[Gator]

I am not a card carrying member of the Libertarian Party as my compatriot in Texas may be, yet I believe in civil liberties.  I agree with Mark Twain that "No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session."

KenC and BillyB seem to share views similar to JB's.  That Daveman, however, is  suspicious.    Actually, Dave has assumed a very demanding part of the committee's effort.

JB, please step back and ask yourself if it were proposed as a requirement, how would it be implemented?  Enforced?

Boar, thanks for the support. I will keep your concerns in mind about paternalizing, controlling, and moralizing.





 

  

[Admin]

As for Kvinna . . . sheeeesh, Dan.  Doesn't anyone around here know how to admit they've shot themselves in the foot? Did you really think posting her involvement---in ANY numerical position---immediately following her making such a complete and total horse's a$$ of herself was going to be received positively?

~Boar

TB,

Yeah - something of a faux pas, wasn't it (on my part, that is) ?

In my feeble defense, one should consider that this project and collaboration was really an extension of a completed initiative from 6 (or more) months ago. It was automatic, on my part, to get it revving again - to return to the same identified participants (2) from then - and then to fill out the team with several others.

I'll take it on the chin for that one - but let's now give the team our support and see what they come up with. OK?

- Dan

[2tallbill]

Richard, if i was you, i will choose to moderate my tone... Have you really participate in antidate or read it ?

Several ladies there are married with some of our members here... like here, you have on AD a few big mouth who make a lot of noise but they are not all bad... By example Zmejka who have post in the Bill topic is located in Holland, and she is far to be middle aged...

Now, let see who have post on the AD topic related to Bill... 2 from France , 1 from Norway, 4 from Russia Moscow, 1 from Ukraine, 1 from Manchoria, 1 from Australia, 1 from Demmark, 1 from Holland, ... no need to continue the 20 other page of the topic... you can clearly see that a lot of girls have leave Russia, possible that a lot of them are married...

What i see is that you have become anti-russia after your administratif problem... you pest again russia now and critic it... but when you choose to live in a other country that your own country, you need to adapt... it is you who need to change, not the country... Russia seem like hell for you but million of people life happily in Russia... and a lot of them have no problem...

You have the same attitude that the AD ladies that you critic... they read the trip report of Albert, and we are all sex tourist... you read post from Kvinna and Fiorella and all AD ladies are femininazi...

Read the Bill topic on AD... some ladies have partially support Bill ( by example these from Australia )... some are good like we have good people here... and the few on both side who are bad are usually these who have the more big mounth...

Insult lead to nothing... maybe to a more bad situation where the few good women on AD will be shocked by post like your and join force against us... same there, we have allies... don't turn them against us...

It is true what Bruno said. That there were a few of the people on Antidate Including Bruno, and a few others who defended me on some of the crazy things said. But 90% was negative and 10% was neutral or positive. I am not going to list the names because it would cause a witch hunt claiming that they were in my pay (I am not kidding they actually argued this).

But what Richard said is therefore 90% true. That's pretty darn accurate.

Just my two kopecks

Bill

[timothe]

After carefully avoiding this long-winded thread for a long time, I finally got bored and read the whole thing.  (and accepted the loss of life in doing so)

The best post I read was I/O's post #62.  He suggested that the "life" of these forums is in the intelligent discussion about conduct.  And we all know that each relationship situation will be different and questions of ethics should probably be approached on a case by case basis. 

Dan, I think most of the backlash comes from the fact that some finite "committee" gets to make the final decision for this "Code of Conduct".   I've always believed that the collective wisdom of the board shines through when everyone's opinion is weighed equally. 

I'll use myself as an example.  Although I was well-known and respected on RWG, I have no such following here.  Any opinions that I offer in private to a small group are likely to be discarded first (and have been) if there are differing opinions from others who have been here longer than I have or post more often than I do.

I think a Code of Conduct thread is appropriate as a general guideline.  I think a Code of Conduct link which is decided by few will end up both controversial and without value.   

[Rvrwind]

But what Richard said is therefore 90% true. That's pretty darn accurate.

Exactly, I'm not in the habit of posting falsehoods or things I have no knowledge about.
Yes Bruno, there are some good people there, unforunately, their numbers are far to few to make a real difference in the overall scheme & direction that AD has chosen to follow. They are outnumbered considerably by the malcontents & that is unfortunate as they could have had a good thing for the women out there but instead decided to turn it into a witch hunt!
I recall when AD was first concieved & Kvinna was running around on all the boards getting input into what the general population of the other boards thought of her scheme. As I recall I was one of those who urged her to move forward & encouraged her to go for it as as she described it at that time I saw it as a very benificial & useful tool for the ladies. Unfortunately the way it was described to us in he beginning is not what we see happening now & it has served to turn many of their original cheerleaders against them. I did at one time participate & am still a member with an active username & password. I just find reading it very difficult as my Russian is not all that great. I can read it but it takes time, unless my wife is home & helps me which she as of late has refused to read this tripe anymore, her words not mine, (actually she said garbage). I also found the direction it was taking was not to my liking & decided to no longer be an active member.
As for being a Babushka Bruno, Bruno, Bruno! Age does not equate to Babushkism, behavior does. I see young women in amoungst the old on the benches everyday. Their apprentises, watching the crones at work, & learning the skills to become a fully fledged Babushka! Certainly they, that is all, RW are not like this, if they were, we all here would not have found the ladies we have. It is for those rare gems that most men risk the mine fields littered with the craven crows. I will also say that Russia is not alone in this behavior, it happens everywhere, they are just not known as Babushkas in other languages but people do have their pet names for them. In Canada in Canadian Cowboy English they are nosey old bats!!

[Kuna]

wow... there's been so much discussion on this topic!!!

I still don't understand why anyone would not want to put guidelines together that might be of benefit to women like those we love???

Aren't some women mistreated by some western men?

If that's true, surely anything we can do to publicly take a stand against it is a good thing. 

It might only help one girl but that would be enough for me.

Kuna

[Kvinna]

Why? Because these men want to have a feeling of full safety and impunity in all they do. It is Russian woman who MUST to prove every day and every hour, with every step of her.
That she is not a scammer.
That she is not a golddigger.
That she is not a GCG
and many-many more.
And western men don't MUST anything. They are good decent gentlemen with dollars in their pockets and they can do all they want.

KING LEAR
So young, and so untender?

CORDELIA
So young, my lord, and true. ©

This situation really remind me Act 1, Scene 1 of King Lear
Now I am afraid the end of this story will be like that

[Fiorella]

Without trying to create a firestorm, I would like to point out something here.

If you read closely everything in this post.. really... read it... with the exception of "You and your american marriage mafia"... which is a reference I don't get...

1)  american men are gullible in the situation of today - how many idiots send money for visas expecting a beautiful young arrive at his door? If that's not gullible, I don't know what else could be

If there would no be such idiots, there would be no people who use it to make for get profit. Already people from all over the world use image of Russian women pretending to be Russians when they really are african, european and even American. Yes, guys, do you forget stories when AMERICAN men scam AMERICAN men pretending to be Russian women?

2) when russian women are seen as silly, easy-get, low-maintenace sexy-dolls -  see number 1.  Plus - How many idiots are shocked, even the ones who travel there and actually meet, to find that these are not actually silly easy to get babes but rather actual women with their own thoughts, opinions, and dreams?

When we look at american so-called "marriage agencies" sites we will see exactly what I say - sweet pretty dolls with minimum clothes and maximum legs. If american men would need intellect and good souls, the sites would exploite these qualities. And agencies would not force girls to answer to ALL letters doesn't matter if the men are 30 years old and perverted.

3) YOU started to buy attention and loyality of girls a lot younger then yourself and was so surprised when this made scam subject born.   -  Many did and still do want to buy a trophy wife, lavish her with everything under the sun... word catches on, money talks.. and boom a market is born.  Luckily we don't have many of these guys here, but probably a number of our "guests" fall into this category.

Really when a man buy a wife and it is ok for both of them it is only their private problem. All over the world rich men buy young wives and nobody call them prostitutes, it is only Russians is possible to call so. Everyone know why men travel to Thailand but no one scream over the internet that thai wives are prostitutes - they are traditional decent wives.

4) And now it is YOUR work to make this change.  I half disagree here... it's the work of both sides to make this problem go away.

Yes, it is. Because it is behind your back people, who smile to your face, will laugh and spread rumors about your wives - look, he is such looser that even no one local girl want to deal with him, so he have to buy a woman by catalogue! If you could read Russian you could read on forums where russian wives talk, how they complaint how every old dirty man from trailer park can say in supermarket - "Oh! I will also have Russian beauty soon! It is cheap - russians are very cheap!" (Real case when woman after such words beated this man).

Of course, women must also do their part of work - that is what AntiDate do. Women must know their human rights, respect themselves and know how to protect themselves in dangerous situation.

5) Otherwise YOUR russian wives will be seen as russian prostitutes that you have bought for a few dollars and who are happy to have a second-hand shirt but live in Great America.  This is exactly how many ignorant Americans think about a RW marrying an American man.. She will do anything to live in America because it's a better life.  I've heard the word 'prostitute' used more than once by numskull morons.  Of course, many American women truly marry for the bucks, but don't see themselves as prostitutes. They "chose wisely".

Not only Americans - this is already practically official politics of many autorities - Russian woman MUST PROVE that she is not prostitute, and not a criminal, just one example what writes Danish Embassy in Moscow on their OFFICIAL site (Denmark is a country in Northern Europe):

Is it safe to date a Russian girl on the internet?

Be careful !!! - it may not be safe at all. Read the homepage www.agencyscams.com.

http://www.ambmoskva.um.dk/en/menu/ConsularServices/Visas/FAQ/
[/b]

Really.. this seems to be such an emotionally charged issue, from both sides really, that the underlying or even the obvious message gets lost somewhere.  Until we remove the emotion from our thinking, we simply do not see clearly.   My point is, there are wild accusations on both sides, but some of the more wild statements (though not in this post - except for 'mafia') can and do stem from a element of truth.. just step back and think about it.

Dave

And while you keep fighting with women, the only fault of whom is the wish to have possibilty to protect themselves against perverts, sexual offenders and cheaters (same as american women do by the way - look www.dontdatehimgirl.com), the clocks are ticking and the situation is only going worse.

[Fiorella]

Regarding the Code of Conduct for men: There are many who feel it is unethical

1. For a man to pursue a woman much younger than himself.
2. For a man to visit more than one woman.
3. For a man to write to correspond with many women.
4. For a man to pursue a pretty, young woman from a poor country.

Are the men appointed to determine this code universally ethical? Laws already exist for criminal acts. What is 'proper' conduct is subjective.  

A few years ago I first discovered the RWG. There I saw some conflict and hash criticism, but my general impression was that this was a decent group of guys with the intention to help. If today was my first visit to these sites, my first impression would that of a madhouse to steer clear of. It is truly sad how these boards have devolved.

As for respect: The actions of Anti Date, admitted hypocricy and vengeful motives, engender disrespect for the women of Russia. If the purpose is to drive men away from Russian women, the mission is accomplished. If the purpose is to attain respect, mission is failed.

Respect is earned, not demanded.

And this tell a man who personally know members of AntiDate??? Who is more hipocrete - may be you who smiled to our faces and did tell compliments to girls and now say that behind their backs?

[Kuna]

And this tell a man who personally know members of AntiDate??? Who is more hipocrete - may be you who smiled to our faces and did tell compliments to girls and now say that behind their backs?

Where is your valuable contribution to this discussion?

If you're a troll keep going as you are and you can be quite easily banned.

If you've got something of value to add here you might actually help Russian Women who meet Western Men in future.

What is it???  Troll or wanting to help Russian Women?

[Fiorella]

Fiorella,

I actually do NOT know Antidate's politics. I have written here everything I know about the genesis, and current operations, of Antidate. I believe that at least a part of the reason AD was started was to provide counterbalance to sites which have blacklists of RW. I think you also (later or earlier, I do not know) started your own blacklist to try to warn RW from men who are 'sex tourists.'

Quite truthfully, that is the extent of my knowledge about AD's efforts.

I remain curious about your 'standards' expected of RW? Do you have anything, in writing, which states what AD thinks are proper behaviors for RW - or improper behaviors ?

For example, is it AD's position that a RW may ask for money from a WM in their first correspondence ?

Does AD have any policy, or position, on whether (or when) a RW should decide to become intimate with a western suitor ?

How does AD feel about a RW divulging information about past lovers - or STD's - or abortions - or marriages/divorces ?

Does AD do anything if/when it is discovered that a RW has NOT followed the 'standards' expected by AD ?

What of your Blacklist? Do you have written guidelines on HOW someone is added to the list? What about guidelines for someone to follow so that they may be removed if wrongly-accused?

And finally - Is Antidate, as an organization/collection, sincerely interested in working with us to a common objective designed to be beneficial to both men and women ?

The answer to that last one is pretty important to me.

At this point, Antidate has apparently taken material from RWD about at least a couple of our members, and subjected them to ridicule and humiliation at Antidate. Are those the behaviors of someone to be trusted?

What do you think Fiorella ?

- Dan

I will answer to your important question first:

AntiDate is and always was open for discussion and cooperation with western men. It is western men who are against us and always was against us. It is only western men have saint right to post russian women on multiple black lists as scammers (criminal accusations by the way) without court and investigation. You even made 10 commandments how to recognise russian scammer, don't you? May be you forgot our discussions in Shadow chat where we also discussed about our politics and the possibility to work together?

Antidate is not court and not online police. I don't know why you all are so fixed on sex-tourists, but there are much more possibilities to cheat online.

I have questions back to all:

- Is it accepted to RWD members to hide their age more then 5-10-20 years?
- Is it accepted to promise happy marriage to women being currently happily married?
- Is it accepted to RWD members to send their nude photos in first letters to women without their consent?
- Is it accepted to force women to send their nude photos otherwise they will be posted on antiscam sites as scaammers?
- Is it possible to RWD members to make women pay for them (i.e. for men) during men's visit to her claiming that "his Credit card doesn't work, he only have checks, he forgot his pocket"?
- Is it possible to provocate women to tell about their "poor and hard life", so they can use it as possible scam attempt?
- Is it possible to force women to have sex on first meeting and even try to rape her?
- Is it possible for RWD members to write long years sweet letters promising to visit and marry as soon as possible and then die, and later revive on the same dating site?
- Is it possible to RWD members hide their mental and physical serious diseases and criminal records?

And what should women do with all these men?

Of course, AntiDate is strongly against any attempt for money from western men, even when men offer it themselves (ESPECIALLY when men offer it).

[Fiorella]

I believe that something usefull could be put together with this panel.

For example Mens Code

1.  You should not be married and pursue RW
2.  Tell the truth
3.  Don't use 10 year old photos before you became bald and fat
4.  Don't post pictures of women to make your trip report exciting no matter how many guys ask you to.
    Because dude you are not 10 years old
5.  Don't send naked pictures of yourself sporting wood in your introduction letter
6.  Don't write unless you are actually prepared to make a trip
7.  18 year old women are actually girls
8.  Don't subtract 40 pounds from your weight in your profile
9.  etc you get my point
10. etc you get my point

Something so simple that make sense. Short and pithy.

Just my two (not as pissed off as before) kopecks

Bill

I second that. I only don't see anything bad when a 18 years old girls attract men close to their age bracket, not 60-years old.

[Fiorella]

So, what does anyone do who feels disrespected??.... of course.. DEMANDS respect.

We have to drop the male logic for a minute and really grasp what the hell the real problem here is.

It's not that the AD ladies are insane freaks... they're really not... the basic underlying impetus for their behavior is that they FEEL disrespected as women.  So, they demand respect.. we still have the same behavior.. so they demand more loudly...  same behavior... more LOUDLY.... guys, until we change our behavior, or they change their definitions of disrespect... or maybe, god forbid, a combination of BOTH..  we're not going to get anywhere. 

EXACTLY!