Questions from Fiorella about acceptable behaviour by Western Men...

[Kuna]

In another Thread Fiorella asked some really good questions about acceptable behaviour by Western Men.

Some posters from Antidate seem to think all Western Men are bad so I thought it would be interesting for us to answer her questions to see if it makes any difference to them... or even to see if it's true that WM are bad.

Here's her questions:

I have questions back to all:

- Is it accepted to RWD members to hide their age more then 5-10-20 years?
- Is it accepted to promise happy marriage to women being currently happily married?
- Is it accepted to RWD members to send their nude photos in first letters to women without their consent?
- Is it accepted to force women to send their nude photos otherwise they will be posted on antiscam sites as scaammers?
- Is it possible to RWD members to make women pay for them (i.e. for men) during men's visit to her claiming that "his Credit card doesn't work, he only have checks, he forgot his pocket"?
- Is it possible to provocate women to tell about their "poor and hard life", so they can use it as possible scam attempt?
- Is it possible to force women to have sex on first meeting and even try to rape her?
- Is it possible for RWD members to write long years sweet letters promising to visit and marry as soon as possible and then die, and later revive on the same dating site?
- Is it possible to RWD members hide their mental and physical serious diseases and criminal records?

And what should women do with all these men?

[Kuna]

Here's my answers... 

- Is it accepted to RWD members to hide their age more then 5-10-20 years?

No, of course not.  If two people are communicating with the purpose of getting to know each other they should not lie!

- Is it accepted to promise happy marriage to women being currently happily married?

Even if a man is UNHAPPILY married he shouldn't promise marriage to another lady...  Every man looking for a new relationship should be legally and emotionally over his past relaitonships.

- Is it accepted to RWD members to send their nude photos in first letters to women without their consent?

No, but it seems like a good way for Russian women to sort through the freaks and deviates!  Anyone that sends a nude or near nude photo in a first letter is dysfunctional.  The men are freaks and the women are desperate!

- Is it accepted to force women to send their nude photos otherwise they will be posted on antiscam sites as scaammers?

Of course not... Forcing anyone to do anything is wrong.

- Is it possible to RWD members to make women pay for them (i.e. for men) during men's visit to her claiming that "his Credit card doesn't work, he only have checks, he forgot his pocket"?

Is it possible or acceptable?  I think you mean acceptable - and no it's not.  ANy woman faced with this should turn and walk away.

- Is it possible to provocate women to tell about their "poor and hard life", so they can use it as possible scam attempt?

Sounds like a tall story to me...  but if that stuff actually happens then no it'd be unacceptable. 

A I was writing to seemed very nice but after about 2 months she told me winter was coming and her shoes were old so were no good for winter.  Then she asked me for USD$400 for new shoes.  I asked a few simple questions but of course it was a scam. I didn't send money and stopped writing... I was very happy I never met her.

- Is it possible to force women to have sex on first meeting and even try to rape her?

Rape is never acceptable, no matter how long two people have known each other.  Trying to force a woman into sex is clearly unacceptable.

- Is it possible for RWD members to write long years sweet letters promising to visit and marry as soon as possible and then die, and later revive on the same dating site?

If any man does this he is just a loser and while the girl might be upset... even angry... she should be relieved that she didn't marry such a loser.

- Is it possible to RWD members hide their mental and physical serious diseases and criminal records?

Neither partner should withold information about serious diseases or criminal records.

And what should women do with all these men?

I think women could do many things.  AD might even have a role.

How about this?

Where a man breaches reasonable standards of behaviour how about Antidate contact him, explain the situation and ask the questions that need to be asked.  When a womans attacks can be justified a post is put on a grey list and the man is invited to respond... Then you can all attack him like the bunch or piranas you seem to be and when it's PROVEN you move him to a black list!


Fiorella,

The only question I have for you is...  Which RWD men did any of the above things to Russian women on your site?

[catzenmouse]

I'll take a stab at these questions for what it's worth.

- Is it accepted to RWD members to hide their age more then 5-10-20 years?
  No, it is not acceptable to lie.

- Is it accepted to promise happy marriage to women being currently happily married?
   Again, no it is not acceptable to lie.

- Is it accepted to RWD members to send their nude photos in first letters to women without their consent?
   Not for me it's not and I think for most it would not be acceptable also. There are some men and women in this world who would like that and find it acceptable.

- Is it accepted to force women to send their nude photos otherwise they will be posted on antiscam sites as scammers?
  No. That is blackmail and it is not acceptable.

- Is it possible to RWD members to make women pay for them (i.e. for men) during men's visit to her claiming that "his Credit card doesn't work, he only have checks, he forgot his pocket"?
   If it is true that the credit card is not working, which does happen sometimes, it is okay to ask the lady to pay. The man should pay her back for this as quickly as possible. If it is a planned "problem" by the man then it is a lie and a scam and no it is not acceptable.

- Is it possible to provocate women to tell about their "poor and hard life", so they can use it as possible scam attempt?
   Do you mean provoke as in push or tempt? If so, then no I don't think you can provoke someone to be a liar or scammer. It is a part of the person to begin with. If the man gives her the opportunity to follow that path she is likely to take it. Perhaps once she sees the possibilities for quick cash she would then begin to pursue this scamming as full time employment.

- Is it possible to force women to have sex on first meeting and even try to rape her?
   Of course it is possible. It is possible in any country in the world. Is it acceptable? No way in hell! Any man who takes this course of action should have his balls cut off and fed to him!

- Is it possible for RWD members to write long years sweet letters promising to visit and marry as soon as possible and then die, and later revive on the same dating site?
  Again it is possible. See my answers regarding liars. Is it acceptable. No.

- Is it possible to RWD members hide their mental and physical serious diseases and criminal records?
  Yes, it is possible. No it is not acceptable. The problem here is that many people who have mental problems do not know it or do not believe that it is they who have the problem. Most would believe that it is everyone else who has the problem. And yes, we do have a few here who in my opinion are very much in need of a lot of therapy and medication. They are not hard to pick out though as they make it very clear in each post that they have mental issues.

And what should women do with all these men?
  Stay away from them. If they do have contact with them they should cut it off as quickly as possible. If there is a situation involving violence they should report it to their local police immediately.

Ken

[BillyB]

In another Thread Fiorella asked some really good questions about acceptable behaviour by Western Men.

Some posters from Antidate seem to think all Western Men are bad so I thought it would be interesting for us to answer her questions to see if it makes any difference to them... or even to see if it's true that WM are bad.

Here's her questions:

To be fair, Fiorella focused her energy towards American men. I asked her some questions myself.

Since she's a member here with almost 300 posts, she should know how the men here would answer her questions. The fact that she doesn't know tells me she ignores who we are although she is quick to judge.

[wxman]

My answers to the questions. They may differ from others.

 Is it accepted to RWD members to hide their age more then 5-10-20 years?
That is not acceptable to hide your age. Be honest.

- Is it accepted to promise happy marriage to women being currently happily married?
It is wrong.

- Is it accepted to RWD members to send their nude photos in first letters to women without their consent?
No, again it is wrong.

- Is it accepted to force women to send their nude photos otherwise they will be posted on antiscam sites as scaammers?
Not acceptable.

- Is it possible to RWD members to make women pay for them (i.e. for men) during men's visit to her claiming that "his Credit card doesn't work, he only have checks, he forgot his pocket"?
I'm sure men have done that. Despicable

- Is it possible to provocate women to tell about their "poor and hard life", so they can use it as possible scam attempt?
Yes, it is possible. There are some men who have no morals.

- Is it possible to force women to have sex on first meeting and even try to rape her?
Yes, rape happens on first meetings. There are evil people in this world.  

- Is it possible for RWD members to write long years sweet letters promising to visit and marry as soon as possible and then die, and later revive on the same dating site?
Again, this is possible. I do not know if any members on RWD have done that, so I can not accuse anyone.

- Is it possible to RWD members hide their mental and physical serious diseases and criminal records?
Yes it is possible. We don't know the backgorund of many people on this site.

What do we do with these men? I wish I had an answer that could stop men who do such vile things.  I wish I had an answer how to stop any vile thing from happening in this world. Most of these type of men know that many women will not read about them, so they will prey on more women.

[Gator]

Fiorella,

All of these are bad, some really despicable.  

Do a significant percentage of men deceive women in the ways suggested by your questions?

A competent woman can mitigate if not prevent damage from each of these possible deceits.

For example, I heard about the credit card scheme from a woman I dated.  She said that when it happened, she reached into her purse, pulled about about $10, and said:  "That's all I have."  Then she just sat there.  After some time, management started to get huffy about being paid and of course focused it on the man.  When a huge man with a flathead and enormous hands was summoned by management, the Western man amazingly found $150 of cash inside his secret wallet.

[Wayne B]

I agree with Kuna on his answers to the questions.....I can only speak about the way that I try to live my life.....and that is one of being sincere and honest in who and what kind of person I am!  I am not perfect my no means, nor will I ever be.... I try to live my life in peace and harmony......and most of all...I give respect to all, even if I have not received it in return....   If a woman/man presents 'Red Flags' of being one of deceit....then walk away!!!    Wayne.

[LEGAL]

I'll take a stab at these questions for what it's worth.

- Is it accepted to RWD members to hide their age more then 5-10-20 years?
  No, it is not acceptable to lie.

- Is it accepted to promise happy marriage to women being currently happily married?
   Again, no it is not acceptable to lie.

- Is it accepted to RWD members to send their nude photos in first letters to women without their consent?
   Not for me it's not and I think for most it would not be acceptable also. There are some men and women in this world who would like that and find it acceptable.

- Is it accepted to force women to send their nude photos otherwise they will be posted on antiscam sites as scammers?
  No. That is blackmail and it is not acceptable.

- Is it possible to RWD members to make women pay for them (i.e. for men) during men's visit to her claiming that "his Credit card doesn't work, he only have checks, he forgot his pocket"?
   If it is true that the credit card is not working, which does happen sometimes, it is okay to ask the lady to pay. The man should pay her back for this as quickly as possible. If it is a planned "problem" by the man then it is a lie and a scam and no it is not acceptable.

- Is it possible to provocate women to tell about their "poor and hard life", so they can use it as possible scam attempt?
   Do you mean provoke as in push or tempt? If so, then no I don't think you can provoke someone to be a liar or scammer. It is a part of the person to begin with. If the man gives her the opportunity to follow that path she is likely to take it. Perhaps once she sees the possibilities for quick cash she would then begin to pursue this scamming as full time employment.

- Is it possible to force women to have sex on first meeting and even try to rape her?
   Of course it is possible. It is possible in any country in the world. Is it acceptable? No way in hell! Any man who takes this course of action should have his balls cut off and fed to him!

- Is it possible for RWD members to write long years sweet letters promising to visit and marry as soon as possible and then die, and later revive on the same dating site?
  Again it is possible. See my answers regarding liars. Is it acceptable. No.

- Is it possible to RWD members hide their mental and physical serious diseases and criminal records?
  Yes, it is possible. No it is not acceptable. The problem here is that many people who have mental problems do not know it or do not believe that it is they who have the problem. Most would believe that it is everyone else who has the problem. And yes, we do have a few here who in my opinion are very much in need of a lot of therapy and medication. They are not hard to pick out though as they make it very clear in each post that they have mental issues.

And what should women do with all these men?
  Stay away from them. If they do have contact with them they should cut it off as quickly as possible. If there is a situation involving violence they should report it to their local police immediately.

Ken

Ken Very well said, my feelings exactly

 



LEGAL

[DKMM]

Wow some women don't seem to be able to attract good men so they lash out and label all men as bad.  Sounds like these chicks are getting westernized!

[2tallbill]

In another Thread Fiorella asked some really good questions about acceptable behaviour by Western Men.

Some posters from Antidate seem to think all Western Men are bad so I thought it would be interesting for us to answer her questions to see if it makes any difference to them... or even to see if it's true that WM are bad.

Here's her questions:

The men who do these things are the REAL reason that antidate should have a black list. Of course any man involved with rape or violence can and should be sent to jail. But thinking all Western men have these character flaws is ridiculous and paranoid. Sometimes you have to sift through a lot of gravel before you find a nugget of gold. This is true for both men and women. Is finding the gold worth sorting through the gravel?? I think so.

Just my two kopecks,

Bill

[Jet]

For the "Is it accepted..." questions the answer is obviously NO! But it's only obvious if you actually take time to read the board.

For the "Is it possible..." questions, My opinion is that you would have to tell us. If a woman allows it, anything is possible. Do I find it acceptable behavior? No, I don't. It's immoral, despicable, and in some cases illegal.

"What should women do?" The same thing I've always advised men to do, educate themselves, understand the possibility of these situations and without getting overly paranoid, work to minimize the probability of placing themselves in these situations. If after all that they find themselves in these situations they should do as Catzenmouse suggested:If they do have contact with them they should cut it off as quickly as possible. If there is a situation involving violence they should report it to their local police immediately.

I've never had much use for blacklists, they are too subjective and they are too easy for corrupt individuals to use for the wrong reasons. If you educate yourself and use basic common sense and intuition, you'll be able to identify trouble long before you see that person on any blacklist. IMO blacklists are false crutches for people who are too lazy to invest the time and due diligence required to be successful in this endeavor of international dating.

[Gator]

My ex-fiancée is experienced in corresponding with and meeting Western men.  She has navigated her way through the MOB scene without making mistakes other than me.     She and I are very good friends so I spoke to her about this issue. 

She felt she could identify a bad man (someone deserving to be on a public blacklist).  In fact she said she could do it before he ever crosses the border.  Her criteria other than intuition - serious men are serious (minimal talk of sex, etc.).  And there were several such men, some very handsome, but obviously considering RW only for sport.

It helps that she speaks excellent English, and she requires lengthy communication before agreeing to a rendezvous.

In her opinion it is the woman’s responsibility to spot the BAD MEN, avoid them, and if they slip past her outer defenses, to keep her knees together (as Richard said). 

TO BE CONTINUED

[Gator]

Moscow Woman's Opinion - II

I discussed all types of behavior enumerated by Fiorella.  Although these may waste her time, none concerned her.  She is not a one-week wonder type of woman, and she feels that eventually even a clever man will reveal clues that suggest a problem.  She also reminded me that RW have many unwritten rules such as there is something wrong with a man who is 40 and never married. 

I then asked her what bothered her the most.  The examples that really frustrate if not upset her:

-  A man disrespecting her right to not like him.  It is unfortunate that he flew a long distance and is disappointed.  However, she is disappointed too.  Best to move on quickly.

-  “Idiots” that wasted her time.  The men did not know what they wanted, did not realize how much it will cost, or raised deal-killer issues late in the correspondence.  This point has been mentioned a million times at RWD.

-  Men who criticize her country.   Yes, some parts are awful, and it is not an easy place to travel, yet some of the criticism seems directed at her culture.  She takes pride in her culture and some of it is permanently imprinted.  If men don’t know that, they should not be dating foreign women.  Some men do not seem interested in her heritage, and she questions whether they are genuinely interested in her as a person.  Plus such men seem insensitive.

-  Men looking for a combination of “pet - sex slave – housekeeper”.   She is a human being and wants to be treated equally.

-  Men who will depend upon her to earn income.   She actually wants to work, but sees that this will take some time of adjustment; this attitude seems to be more prevalent with European men.


TO BE CONTINUED

[Gator]

Moscow Woman’s Opinion III


Some other items that bothered her, yet these are more in the category of dating tips:
-   Men arrogantly behaving as white knights, reminding her that she lives in a bad situation (she knows her situation and does not need to be reminded of it; meanwhile she is thinking, “if I had the job opportunities of your country, I would make more money than an idiot like you”)
-   Men, frequently less educated than her, arrogantly assuming that she is not ready for the Western world because she is from “poor” Russia. (when we rented car, she insisted that she drove for the pleasure and also because I eyeballed too much).
-   Men who are critical of their ex-spouse or past girlfriend - “if they say bad things about her, they will say bad things about me”  (in my three years together she never said anything bad about anybody)
-   Men who criticize where she takes them for dinner, etc. - she enjoys these places, they are not expensive for Moscow, yet the man criticizes them, which she considers as criticism of her.
-   Silly jokes.

TO BE CONTINUED

[Gator]

Moscow Woman's Opinion - Final

I did not discuss trip reports because she saw me prepare a report while we were together, read it, and asked, “Don’t you have better things to do.”



 

[BillyB]

My ex-fiancée is experienced in corresponding with and meeting Western men. 
She felt she could identify a bad man (someone deserving to be on a public blacklist). 

Now I know why I saw your pick on the blacklist. Just kidding. Your ex seems wise. Nobody protects you better than yourself. I respect her for her subscribing to "self accountability" instead of throwing the blame entirely elsewhere for mistakes she may take part in.

Some women out there do throw down their guard and get used by men. I hope they could heal and continue to move on in life without bitterness to men based on a few bad experiences.

[Kvinna]

But thinking all Western men have these character flaws is ridiculous and paranoid.

Can you imagine women from AD never thought so. And no one russian newspeper or magazine never wrote that westerm men are bad, while your, western newspapers write about us a lot of crаp
as for example this one

Mr Davis says the Russians "market themselves more aggressively".
"They are easy on the eye, caring and they cook and clean. They offer sex on tap and almost prostitute themselves because they are so desperate to get out of their country."
http://stuff.co.nz/4022760a6497.html

and after this you dare to nag!

[catzenmouse]

I've seen the same types of things written about Asian women or Latin women. That's the beauty of what is called the news as well as the internet.

Any idiot from any country can post information that is the "truth" as they see it. The difference here in this case is that you know the information posted at AD was done so in a vindicitive manner and you have the power to do the right things here.

Searching the net for more evidence to back up your extreme position does more to prove the negative opinion about AD than it does to show that you are actually trying to be fair or just in your pursuit of those who are really the bad people.

FWIW,
 Ken

[groovlstk]

And no one russian newspeper or magazine never wrote that westerm men are bad, while your, western newspapers write about us a lot of crаp
as for example this one
 

and after this you dare to nag!

Anyone who reads the English language Pravda knows that certain Russian newspapers love to write about laughable conspiracies and outrageous scandals among Westerners, sometimes I go there just to scan the headlines for a quick laugh.

[Kvinna]

Searching the net for more evidence to back up your extreme position does more to prove the negative opinion about AD than it does to show that you are actually trying to be fair or just in your pursuit of those who are really the bad people.
FWIW,
 Ken

seems I told many times we don't try to evidence our possition in front of you, you are not our targenting audience.
And if you think Bill are good, it is only from your opinion, our possition Bill is not so good as it show women replies. And if you don't interested to understand why they think so, you have merelly to accept this, is all

[BillyB]

Kvinna,

Our own media tends to stereotype the men who pursue foreign women as losers. Don't be insulted if one journalist writes something that insults RW and don't believe everything you read. The author of that article does not represent the men here.

I don't know if 2tallBill is truly a good man for a woman or not. I haven't dated him or read everything he writes and neither has the ladies at anitdate to make a good judgement.

[Kvinna]

Our own media tends to stereotype the men who pursue foreign women as losers. Don't be insulted if one journalist writes something that insults RW and don't believe everything you read. The author of that article does not represent the men here.

mass-media build public opinion as you know, better ask Kuna why his friends make some strange remarks about MOB and his wife? I am sure not by her own opinion only according to mass-media

[Gator]

Kvinna,

There is a stigma that I dislike.

I admit that some of my  "friends" have expressed sincere concerns about my keen interest in RW.  One had a relative taken to the cleaners (phrase meaning  "lost everything") by a RW and told me, "Stop Now." 

Yet those who met my ex-fiancee encourage me, or at least do not question me.

[Gator]

A woman from Anti-Date wrote (sorry forgot whom),

Women must have a place where they can find information how to recognize good and bad guys.

I agree completely.  Noble goal.  How it is achieved and implemented  is most important. 

If it promotes a stigma against all Western men, well...that is as bad as the Kiwi reporter named Davis whom you cited.

[2tallbill]

mass-media build public opinion as you know, better ask Kuna why his friends make some strange remarks about MOB and his wife? I am sure not by her own opinion only according to mass-media

The mass media don't want men to go to Russia and find happiness. They label all men who do so as losers and all women who come west as
driven by poverty. You are correct that they are the biggest cause of a bad stereo type of Russian women or Russian men for that matter.
I have never read a positive story from the mass media on Russian women and Western men. Not a single solitary story. They don't believe that we seek our soulmate.
But you can't blame me for this and you have. I used to have subscriptions to the San Francisco Chronicle and the San Jose Mercury Newspaper as well.
I cancelled them both a several years ago.

I am tired of arguing with you. Posting 18 pages of crap about me was wrong. I know this (possibly you do as well), but you are never going to admit it so there is no point
to continue arguing with you. It takes my energy away from important things like raising my son (I hope he never reads the garbage written in your web pages about me), my
business, and my quest to find a soulmate.

About your involvement with the project. I think you can give some insight on it and you should do it. I was angry earlier when they picked you,
but my thinking now is if it will make the project better and more complete then I think you should be part of it.

There are bad men out there and you have a chance of doing a lot of good for Russian women with your website. If you accuse very many wrongly then
you will diminish the effectiveness of your ability to do good.

Instead of fighting everyone, why don't you instead write down ten things that you think should be in the code of ethics? I know that you could provide some insight
and challenge the men at this forum to discuss only the ten things and not you or your website.

You could write something like this
I have thought about what a man should do or not do in this situation and I would like your thoughts on these ideas only and not me, my website or previous posts.
" a b c d e f etc"

If someone says yes but Kvinna is a blah blah blah. simply repeat saying that you only want to talk about "a, b, c, d etc. and
if they want to argue about something else then they can start their own I hate Kvinna thread and fight about it there.

Just my two kopecks

Bill