Does history make it difficult for Germans?

[Kuna]

Quote from: Jazzyclassy on Today at 14:59:27

German is the language of some Military places it is some kinda war language maybe it is in my gens but for me German has Military colouring

It is amazing how many Russians think this way of German.

In my opinion it is the result of our school education program that devoted lots and lots of amount of class and assigned home reading about Hitler's invasion in the USSR for schoolkids.

It would be interesting to take the ols classbooks now and distinguish the relative amount of this information among the other children related topics. But as far as I could very roughly estimate, about 1/4-1/3 of all assigned books, films or class discussion topics were anyhow related to this war during all 10 years of school. As the kids memory is extremely sharp, they got it in their heads for the whole life.

If we ask an average person about his first associations about Germany, in most cases we can expect to hear 'Haende hoch' or 'Hitler kaputt'  No one is likely to say 'Kant', 'Shubert', ' Gruenes Gewoelbe', or even 'Katarina Witt', 'Singer'. Well, some would say 'BMW', 'Mercedes'...

To me it looks like Germany may probably consider suing Russia, particularly Ministry of Education,for that bad kid of propaganda. 

I found the opinions of Jazzy and Lily interesting here... 

While it's of no consequence to me I was wondering if history and the education of Russians about WWII have made it more difficult for German men who want to find a FSUW?

Kuna

[Gator]

It is probably not just because of children's school books. 

My parents never forgot about the difficult times of the Great Depression, and their thinking affected me in some profound ways.

The Great Depression is small compared to the Nazi invasion of USSR.  What was the death count - 11 million military and 12 million citizens?  What was the Soviet population at the beginning of the Great patriotic War?

[Kuna]

http://www.demographic-research.org/volumes/vol4/9/4-9.pdf

Hmmmm.... Some pretty heavy research here and when someone has some time a summary of this document might help explain or refute the male:female ratios we hear about from the agencies...

Gator,

According to this document (Page 300) Russia lost 13% of it's population as a result of WWII.

Kuna

[BC]

Considering the numbers of ex FSU expats living in Germany I don't think WWII has much bearing anymore.

There are plenty of agencies catering to Germans and have even seen documentaries on German TV recently.

[BillyB]

While it's of no consequence to me I was wondering if history and the education of Russians about WWII have made it more difficult for German men who want to find a FSUW?

I don't think so. I've never heard RW say they hate Germans and Germany based on what happen in WW2 although I'm sure some RW think that way. There seems to be a lot of perverted Germans on AD's scam list so if anything, RW might hate Germans for that.

My fiancee actually knows more German than English and she has a work permit visa to Germany in her passport. One of her best friends live there and if it wasn't for getting involved with me, she probably would be living there too.

[mirror]

I found the opinions of Jazzy and Lily interesting here... 

While it's of no consequence to me I was wondering if history and the education of Russians about WWII have made it more difficult for German men who want to find a FSUW?

Kuna

actually I don't think german men have problems because of history...but I'd like to tell a small funny story.

When I and my son were in Moscow in Red square few years ago  I showed to my son few  groups of  foreigh people ...look it is japanese people , it is english people , it is german people ...listen their languages. My son was maybe 6-7 years old.When we were near german group my son spoke very loudly
"Hitler kaput!" and "Hende hoh!".

I know I never said anything him about german and history but he could watch some TV programms or movies. I had a red face after his words.But what could I do? 

[Lily]

Yes Sofia, see, even at this time the amount of propaganda of evil Germany 60 years back looks the same.

No, this propaganda did not result in any hurdles on the way of a German man to the heart and hand of Russian woman. There are even a few agencies online specializing in assisting the German speaking Europeans by search for a FSUW. 

The reason is that women are not going to marry the history. They marry this particular Dieter, Hans or Rainer, who live not far from Russia and her parents' home, whose country turns to be the largest foreign investor in Russian economy (at least in a recent year), where do some of her friends live, which language she maybe has learned in school. Who cares that her great-grandfather was killed in the war in past century, and may be even by an immediate relative of her fiancee? Present time matters.

[Lily]

I don't think so. I've never heard RW say they hate Germans and Germany based on what happen in WW2 although I'm sure some RW think that way. There seems to be a lot of perverted Germans on AD's scam list so if anything, RW might hate Germans for that.

Well, Germans are active on Russian dating market because 1) German nation is large in number, and 2) they are closer to Russia so even a tight budget allows a trip.

Russian education system only produced this very Russia-specific associations of Germany in Russian minds, demonstrated by Jazzy and Sofia's son. Germany means military.

[BC]

Who cares that her great-grandfather was killed in the war in past century, and may be even by an immediate relative of her fiancee? Present time matters.

I agree..  One of the greatest moments in my life was to go from wearing a gas mask and chemical suit in the military during the cold war to standing in Red Square some 20 years later. 

Russian education system only produced this very Russia-specific associations of Germany in Russian minds, demonstrated by Jazzy and Sofia's son. Germany means military.

Lily,

Think Cowboys and Indians..

[mirror]

Think Cowboys and Indians..

  lovely associations about Indians!     

[Nat]

To tell the truth, I feel negative speaking of going to Germany. And it’s not about propaganda. Propaganda said a lot about different countries, not only Germany. For example, USA was an “enemy” for the USSR too. But I personally don’t mind going to USA, I have friends there, so everything is ok with this country. As for Germany... My friend is studying there – she won a grant and now is writing her scientific work there. She says most Germans in the town where she lives don’t like Russians very much (to say it in soft words). I can understand them, but it was them who started first, after all. Besides, she says flags and clothes with Nazi symbols are very popular among youth there now, so they don’t seem to think they were wrong when they started it. Of course I understand that there’re always such people in different countries, not only in Germany, and that people in general can be quite friendly and good there, but... Still it influences the perception of a country.

[BC]

She says most Germans in the town where she lives don’t like Russians very much (to say it in soft words). I can understand them, but it was them who started first, after all. Besides, she says flags and clothes with Nazi symbols are very popular among youth there now, so they don’t seem to think they were wrong when they started it.

Nat,

This feeling may have little or nothing to do with WWII.  Germany experienced a rather large influx of Russians with German ancestry in the 90's.  They were resettled throughout Germany.  This caused a good bit of tension, especially in the smaller towns.

[Rvrwind]

Think Cowboys and Indians..

Now you just hold on one second heir Pardner!!! 
Sorry 
But to ge back on the horse..... I lived for 3 & a half years in Soest, Germany. Had a great time. Loved it. Still have friends their but they tell me things just ain't the way they used to be. I often wondered what they meant by that but when I look back at Canada 20 years ago, things there ain't what they used to be either. Times change, people change, some for the better, some for the worse, its life.
I find many of the ladies in our agency get right excited about the Europeans when they write, no matter what country. Its within easy traveling distance to home & family & the culture is not so much different from their own.
Way
On a different note, my condolences to the Russian people on our board & elswhere. Yeltsin passed away today & there is much grieving for the first President of Democratic Russia.

[Ste]

Considering the numbers of ex FSU expats living in Germany I don't think WWII has much bearing anymore.

There are plenty of agencies catering to Germans and have even seen documentaries on German TV recently.

Too right! I've been visiting Germany uber-frequently later the Russian are everywhere, really does seem like 50%, certainly in the Lande of Hamburg. Indeed, there is a place called Nettelndorf, apparently built to settle Russians, must be 99% Russian.

Seems they got there due to WW2 relationships bestowing ancestral visa rights down the blood line, and the advantage was firmly grabbed. We went to Lubeck to visit some sort of friend and relation of a friend and found ourselves in another almost totally Russian area, no-one spoke German with any ability, everyone spoke in Russian, Russian shops abound, Russian satellite TV, all Russian. Seems russian's aren't great integrators and really the local Germans see them and just about the lowest of the low, marginally above the Turks. Plus they get German Government help and free food or food vouchers. Almost none work. Bit of a shocker that was.

Nadia's not so pleased living there, she's lost the exclusivity of being Russian she had in the UK - we don't have that many. Yet.

[Leslie]

Well from my personal experience the German guys outnumber ALL the other nationalities put together in Western Ukraine.  I suppose it is mostly a matter of geography.  Lviv is a one hour hop flight.  It is also seen as a great destination.  Opportunity, high standard of living, easy to visit home etc.

Sure there is strong anti German feeling in the Dedushka/Babushka generation, but it is not significant with the younger people.  Most people with personal memory of the great patriotic war are dead now...

[Elen]

Too right! I've been visiting Germany uber-frequently later the Russian are everywhere, really does seem like 50%, certainly in the Lande of Hamburg. Indeed, there is a place called Nettelndorf, apparently built to settle Russians, must be 99% Russian.

Seems they got there due to WW2 relationships bestowing ancestral visa rights down the blood line, and the advantage was firmly grabbed. We went to Lubeck to visit some sort of friend and relation of a friend and found ourselves in another almost totally Russian area, no-one spoke German with any ability, everyone spoke in Russian, Russian shops abound, Russian satellite TV, all Russian. Seems russian's aren't great integrators and really the local Germans see them and just about the lowest of the low, marginally above the Turks. Plus they get German Government help and free food or food vouchers. Almost none work. Bit of a shocker that was.

Nadia's not so pleased living there, she's lost the exclusivity of being Russian she had in the UK - we don't have that many. Yet.

To my inform RUSSIANs got no "right" to move to Germany but only Germans who lived in Russia and hebrews ( like a payback for crims against them in WWII)  So in majority it's they ( but not russians) who  can't intergate Let be corret about nationalities Rusians're already tired to be mention anytime when some other nations do something wrong abroad

[BC]

Elen,

You are correct..  The fact that the Germans that could not make this distinction was probably as much at fault...  From what I saw in most cases it was not a 'warm' welcome.

As an employer in Germany at the time I had 6 GE/RU guys working for me.. great guys, hard workers, little problem.  Still see them from time to time when I travel.. all doing quite well.

[Gator]

I am perhaps wrong, but did not the USSR retain many Nazi POWs after the war and not allow them to return to Germany?    Supposedly this was done to help rebuild the country. 

Are these the Germans (and their children and grandchildren) that Elen and others list as now emigrating to Germany?

[BC]

Gator,

http://www.amherst.edu/~pubaff/news/news_releases/01/noyes.html

The “unique story” of these Spaetaussiedler, Noyes wrote in her application, began in the late 18th century. Catherine the Great, “German-born empress of Russia, actively recruited German farmers to resettle in newly conquered territories in order to cultivate the fertile soil. By 1897, there were 1,971,000 ethnic Germans living in the Russian Empire.” Their lives were “relatively peaceful” until the Second World War, when Josef Stalin, “using the invasion of the USSR by Nazi forces as a pretext, began a program of cultural genocide against the German population,” including mass exile to Siberia.

The post-war German constitution guaranteed these exiles a “right of return,” which more than a million and a half ethnic Germans have exercised since the fall of the Soviet Union. During the 40 years of the Cold War, only around 1 million ethnic Germans were able to migrate from the Soviet bloc to Germany. Since the easing of travel restrictions that began in 1987, however, 2.7 million Spaetaussiedler have exercised their right of return.

Maybe Elen can add more from her side.

[I/O]

Just a side comment on this.  I've noticed a goodly number of German men in Russia almost every time I have been there and on the whole, their behaviour has been less than exemplary, however I have noticed also that they have generally been accepted quite well.

A point of note from history and IMO a tribute to the Russian peoples was the parade of German POW's in Moscow after their ultimate failure.  The German officers marched ahead with obvious distain for the Russian peoples and were ignored and in some cases taunted BUT the rank and file fearful and beaten German troops marched afraid and several hundred ordinary Russian women had food in hand and stepped out of the watching crowds to hand it to the German troops.  I think that would have been pretty special to watch.

In light of the this, I am not surprised that many Germans travel to Russia.  Some are very fine people, but it is a pity that many do not behave in an appropriate manner. They were given respect from the ordinary Russian people when they perhaps least deserved it.  It behoves all to reciprocate that.

I/O

[Kuna]

Hmmm.... interesting observations. I might make a few comments though.

Even though the generation to directly suffer from conflict with Germany is mostly gone now there can still be lingering ill feeling based on how we were raised.

In Australia there are still negative feelings by some (albeit the less travelled) about our Japanese neighbours.

I've personally felt hostility from some Dutch immigrants to Australia (of my fathers generation) because of my German roots.  I think those ill feelings do fade through the generations though.

Someone also mentioned the low regard that many Russians feel if living in Germany.  I have heard this through My Girl who's best friend lives in Germany (She's Russian).  She said they live a very hard life their but they choose to raise their family in Germany rather than in Russia.

My Girl also told me that after living in Germany for 2 years she would never have considered marrying a German but as Billy said, those negative feelings weren't because of the War.

Last year I had a German girlfriend who spoke Russian and her mother taught Russian in School and to German businessmen.  There's obviously a close economic link between Germany and the FSU these links couldn't be maintained (in hindsight) if there were deep hostilities because of the war.

Changing internal borders and historic conflict causes some deep thought.  I have a Polish friend at home who was devastated to find out the city his father was born in was now in Ukraine...  Lviv!  My friend was born in Poland but still has many cousins and relatives in Lviv and is planning a trip to meet them soon.

Hmmm...  Interesting... Thanks to all for adding your thoughts!

Kuna

[Ste]

To my inform RUSSIANs got no "right" to move to Germany but only Germans who lived in Russia and hebrews ( like a payback for crims against them in WWII)  So in majority it's they ( but not russians) who  can't intergate Let be corret about nationalities Rusians're already tired to be mention anytime when some other nations do something wrong abroad

I dunno Elen, I know this family we visited seemed to have no obvious Germany connection but their being their was some sort of obligation on Germany. They moved there at collapse of Soviet Union so I don't know if this is related.

I don't know if Russian's are great integrators or not really, not many ethnic groups are in another country - certainly in UK the Indians and Pakistanis don't but the Chinese seem to. The Europeans generally do too even Poles I think relatively speaking, and we have 600,000 of those in last two years.....

[I/O]

I don't know if Russian's are great integrators or not really, not many ethnic groups are in another country - certainly in UK the Indians and Pakistanis don't but the Chinese seem to. The Europeans generally do too even Poles I think relatively speaking, and we have 600,000 of those in last two years.....

From our tiny "Dot on the map" (population wise) the Russians have integrated particularly well.  Of 20 million, there is now 60 odd thousand Russian people here and who would ever notice one?  That kinda speaks for itself.  Admittedly, we are such a mongrel mixture that who would know, but the Greeks (Largest ex pat population of Greeks in the world), Italians and Poles have integrated very well. It would perhaps be fair to say the East and South East Asians have had more difficulties than the West and North Asians.

I suspect that most "Thinking" people don't see much relationship between "Nazi Germany" and the German people in general.

I/O

 

[jb]

I must be in the Dedushka group because I still don't like Germans very much, and I don't think I'll ever forgive the Japs.

[Gator]

JB,

That is because you actually fought in the War.  Everyone else just heard stories from their elders.

Seriously, I have traveled in the past two years to both Vietnam and Laos.  The people treated me kindly even though a high percentage probably lost relatives in the conflict that occurred 30 years after WWII. 

All may not be forgotten, but they do not allow it to interfere with their plans.  These countries are still communist, yet the working people are focusing on economic growth.  Vietnam could very well become a future Asian tiger.