Boris Yeltsin: Hero of Russia has Passed Away

[WmGO]

I wanted to post this in the Russian news forum but saw that apparently only the moderator can make a new topic there.

I wanted to acknowledge that the great Russian leader Boris Yeltsin passed away yesterday. He was a hero of Russia and the Soviet people. Like all leaders he made some mistakes but unlike most leaders (no comments on GB please) he always admitted his mistakes. He was a central leader for the Russian and "Soviet" people to throw off the shackles of the totalitarian Soviet system. And with great heroism he stood up against and beat the attempted Communist hardliner coup of August 1991. Seeing him stand on top of the tank in front of the White House is one of the greatest photographs of bravery I have ever seen. 

Regardless of his personal faults there is only one way to categorize Yeltsin and that is that he was a hero and great leader who cared more about his people than himself.

Boris Yeltsin I salute you.

[Elen]

If you wish to name somebody like hero than speak for yourself please but not for "Russia and the Soviet people" 

[WmGO]

I can if I want to - and I do! You see, that is what students of history do. Of course, you represent the racist and xenophobic aspect of the Russian soul that does not believe that anyone but a Russian is entitled to say ANYTHING about Russia or Russians. I categorically reject any such notion!

[Vaughn]

Batten down the hatches, boys, a stormswell is brewin'......

[Elen]

to WmGO
You better go and check some pols, "student of history"    about Elcin carried among Russians   before atomizing your salvia here
You would be surprised how many Russians "represent the racist and xenophobic aspect of the Russian soul"

[WmGO]

No, I would not be surprised 

[Elen]

Then return to your first post and correct that yours "hero of Russia" to "hero of America"  ( or where you are from there wich such your opinion)

[Ste]

Then return to your first post and correct that yours "hero of Russia" to "hero of America"  ( or where you are from there wich such your opinion)

Wasn't it Boris who gave the Oligarchs the Russian people's natural assets for a pittance?

[WmGO]

Elen,

By any HUMAN and  DEMOCRATIC and FREEDOM LOVING standards Yeltsin
is a hero  - whether you like it or not. So... ...I will NOT capitulate to your Communist demands 

[Elen]

I repeat if you didn't get it - if YOU think he is a hero then say "he is MY hero" but leave "Russians and the Soviet people" who had a chance to test on their skins what a hero he was decide by themselves how to call him.
 Your post is just one more proof that you ( in general) at the West just don't know or don;t give a dime what's going here and how and what people think and feel because you know better how those Russians are suppposed to think 

[Ste]

Elen,

By any HUMAN and  DEMOCRATIC and FREEDOM LOVING standards Yeltsin
is a hero  - whether you like it or not. So... ...I will NOT capitulate to your Communist demands 

This guy's an idiot.

[Bruno]

if YOU think he is a hero then say "he is MY hero" but leave "Russians and the Soviet people" who had a chance to test on their skins what a hero he was decide by themselves how to call him.

What Yeltsin have say about himself :

On December 31, 1999, Yeltsin asked for forgiveness for what he acknowledged were errors of his rule, and said Russia needed to enter the new century with new political leaders. Yeltsin said: "I want to beg forgiveness for your dreams that never came true. And also I would like to beg forgiveness not to have justified your hopes."

Because he have ask forgiveness for his mistake, i consider Yeltsin to be a great man, if not a hero... try to find a western politic man who reconize that he have make mistake and ask forgiveness to his own citizen...

[Jack]

Hello Elen.

Elen first let's agree that ALL people are different.  Not all people think the same.

I, for one, am somewhat familiar with Russia, Russia history, it's culture and it's people. I love Russian history, most of it's culture and most of it's people. But not all it's people because in Russia, as in Ukraine, as in America, as in West Virginia or Sudan, their are bad people.

As an individual who is blessed to visit your lovely country yearly, and have for 12 years now, I for one am one of those knowledgeable of your country who liked Boris Yeltsin.

And now for the news you will not like hearing, I know many other Russians who also liked Boris Yeltsin and are remembering him fondly today. I have talked with Russians yesterday and today, some in Moscow, who are remembering Boris with happy thoughts.

But not all Russians feel this way. I know of many, mostly older Russians, who do not like Boris Yeltsin.  Just as today their are some Russians who also think fondly of Stalin. Can you believe that?     Yes, some Russians, again mostly older ones that I am aware of, think Stalin was a good man. Just goes to show you, all people will have different views and thoughts of people.

You do not think so much of Yeltsin and their are many who feel the same as you, but there are also many others Russian people who did like Yeltsin.

Thank goodness today you are allowed to speak of your dislike for Yeltsin. No thanks to Nikita Khrushchev,  Leonid Brezhnev or Andrei Gromyko for that privilege, noooooo, but thanks to Mikhail Gorbachev AND Boris Yeltsin. 

[jb]

When my wife learned of Yeltsin's death she celebrated.

Yes, Ste is correct, Boris Yeltsin gave away the future economic well being of Russia to a hand full of his cronies, groomed Putin for future power, as such he insured Russia would remain in the dark ages for years to come.  He was not a hero in any sense I've heard of. 

Gorby is not well regarded by most Russians who were over 21 in 1989 either.

[ScottinCrimea]

I think the best description of Yeltsin was that he is a "flawed hero".  There is no question that his influence on world and Russian history, whether one views it as positive or negative, was huge.

The Russian people certainly see the flaws more than the heroism. A poll by the Levada Analytical Centre in December found 70 percent think the Yeltsin era did more harm than good. Half thought he should be prosecuted.

Friends said history would judge Yeltsin more favourably as the father -- however flawed -- of Russian democracy.

I tend to agree with this last statement.  His true measure as a hero or as a failure cannot truly be measured until time has healed wounds and allows for more objectivity.  Some of the greatest men of all time were not recognized as such during their own lifetimes, only with the luxury of hindsight.  I'm not saying that Yeltsin should be included with the greatest of all time, I'm only using this to give some perspective.

[Elen]

To Jack If that "some" Russians who didn't like him is closed to 70 % in polls and those who adored him to 7% then nothing here to speak about to my mind. ( though yes people are different)
And I still wonder what could be those "happy thoughts" which people have recalling that "hero"?

[Ste]

When my wife learned of Yeltsin's death she celebrated.

Yes, Ste is correct, Boris Yeltsin gave away the future economic well being of Russia to a hand full of his cronies, groomed Putin for future power, as such he insured Russia would remain in the dark ages for years to come.  He was not a hero in any sense I've heard of. 

Gorby is not well regarded by most Russians who were over 21 in 1989 either.

At last!

I thought I was alone on this West of the Iron Curtain.

When I very first spoke about Gorby to Nadia early on on our relationship I did think she'd say what a great man etc, but no - nothing dramatic just - well not that great....

Plus some talk of stolen money in Switzerland...

People do forget that a combination of 70 years of political and social indoctrination, good or bad, plus a life that really wasn't all that bad despite Western propaganda means that real Russian people -  maybe, cos I don;t know cos I'm not Russian, won't mourn the passing of someone who profited from this huge sea change and made thugs rich men.

I've spoken to Nadia, her parents, Elen, and of course any human is sad at any death, the overall feeling is, 'so what, he was old'....

[Elen]

I've spoken to Nadia, her parents, Elen, and of course any human is sad at any death, the overall feeling is, 'so what, he was old'....

yes "So what, he was old..." and recall that under his ruling and due to his actions average life time of other males droped to 58 ( or something like that) ages

[WmGO]

Ste,

Let's see: you were a member of the Communist Party of Great Britain, were and apparently still are in love with the totalitarian and despotic USSR,  don't have an objection to Iran acquiring nuclear weapons - AND post an avatar of a foolish looking person........and you have the chutzpa to call me "idiot" for pointing out the historical REALITY that Russia would not be a free and open country today, nor would the people of Ukraine, Georgia, Armenia, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, West Germany, the Czeck Republic, Slovakia, Hungary, Romania, and Moldova live in free and open societies  if not for Boris Yeltsin (and yes also Michail Gorbachev)??? It reminds me of the maxum never to argue with a fool.

FYI, Yeltsin acknowledged his failures after the collapse of the USSR but to blame him for the all of the subsequent problems is unfounded AND misses the point that he was one of two key Russian men who brought an end to the most evil and repressive regime the world has ever known. Of course, many Russians do not feel that way because to most Russians, particularly older ones, people are nothing and the state is everything. But to people anywhere in the world including Russians who cherish freedom and free and open democratic society he qualifies for the term "hero".

JB, if you research the matter you will find that Yeltsin expected Putin to be more of a democrat than Putin has turned out to be. However, to his credit, Putin has done a lot to combat corruption and go after the "oligarchs". To suggest Putin is bringing Russia to a new dark ages is a stretch, although I do not like his free speech/assembly record or his efforts to recreate a one party system.

Bottom line: Yeltsin-Gorbachev = no more evil Empire. No more gulags. No more knock on the door in the middle of the night. No more enforced atheism. No more Cold War. No more people trapped behind an Iron Curtain. No more nuclear missles pointed at each other. No more denial of basic human rights. No more of a sick and sordid list of abusing people that would fill an encycopedia.

[WmGO]

Of course Yeltsin is responsible for the decreased longevity of Russian men since he forced them to be alchoholics and chain smoke and inject drugs into themselves....Agree with Scott that "flawed hero" may be more apt.........and Scot you are right about how contemporaries judge the recently demised......over time as people know and understand more.....and think more clearly they can see more of the good.........the man was definitely the father of Russian democracy and a very likable man..........

[Ste]

Bottom line: Yeltsin-Gorbachev = no more evil Empire. No more gulags. No more knock on the door in the middle of the night. No more enforced atheism. No more Cold War. No more people trapped behind an Iron Curtain. No more nuclear missles pointed at each other. No more denial of basic human rights. No more of a sick and sordid list of abusing people that would fill an encycopedia.

Mate, you sound the neighbour in 'Wait Till You Father Gets Home'!!

Why are u here? Honestly, I'm no dreamer - yes I was a CPGB member and a CND member, but I know communism didn't work in that it didn't make the FSU what it should have been.

It's a laudable dream all the above but r we all so squeaky clean? Lets look at our own histories too....

[jb]

..the man was definitely the father of Russian democracy and a very likable man..........

I'm sorry, WmGO, I didn't realize you knew the man personally.

My own research is limited to time spent on the ground in Russia, speaking with Russians. The "oligarchs" exist in every niche and corner of Russian enterprise.  When I see Russian businesses listed on the "Moscow Stock Exchange", when I see transparent accounting of public funds, when I see foreign investments put to work for the good of Russians and not funnelled off into private Swiss bank accounts,,, then I'll know the oligarch system of corruption and cronyism is dead.  Putin found fault with a couple of the Oligarches, Such as Gazprom, and it's true he slapped them hard,,, but what did he do with the company, and it's ernormous profits, as the petro-dollars began to flow into Russia?   If you guessed; "he stuck it all back under government control",,, a la Communist style, then you get a Red Star to take home to mommy.  The oil and gas oligarches simply weren't sharing the wealth with the other power brokers and Putin needed to make an example for the others about how to play nice in the sand box.

[ScottinCrimea]

Generally when people anywhere judge a leader, it isn't by how much more freedom they have or by international relations, it's by how much money they have in their pocket at the end of the day.  The switch from Communism to a democratic capitalist society saw an enormous economic upheavel that left many worse off financially than under the old system, thus their dissatisfaction.  If you look at Putin, he is popular even though he has severly curtailed many democratic reforms and decreased individual freedoms.  Why?  Because Russia is riding the wave of high oil prices and for the moment the economy is good.  But looking back 50 years from now, who will be judged as a greater leader, Yeltsin or Putin? Impossible to say until all the facts are in.

[WmGO]

JB, agree,
Scot good point....as they say in America, people vote their pocketbook.....

[groovlstk]

One of the many reasons why Russians are so cynical about Yeltsin has to do with the old MMM Corporation pyramid scheme that defrauded Russian investors (most of them pensioners) out of hundreds of millions of dollars and the investor protection fund, created by Yeltsin's govt.,  that was supposed to bail them out in 1996.

The idea was to use privatization revenue from state auctions to compensate victims of the scheme. A Western mutual fund was set up as private investment contractor (Pallada). Additionally, funds used to pay employees of the agency came from loans from the World Bank. So here you have two western entities - one the fund manager, the other loaning $ to pay employee salaries - that stood to make a profit off what was essentially a charity to bail out some of the poorest people in Russia.

Everyone made a tidy profit, but does it come as a surprise to anyone that not a single kopek was paid to the defrauded Russian investors who were supposed to benefit from the fund?

While this scheme was playing out a number of Russian accountants complained openly to Yeltsin about what was going on but were invariably labelled "communists" and "anti-reform."

I see even today the Western press calls people like Anatoli Chubais an "architect of reform" and such when he was really an architect of thievery who convinced Clinton's henchmen to look the other way while he divvied up the state's assets to a select group of men - always by using the threat that the commies were waiting in the wing to seize power should the Americans not back his schemes.

I for one don't blame Elen or other Russians, not for a second, for choosing not to mourn this man's passing.