Ukraine vs Russia

[ScottinCrimea]

I think a lot of it boils down to which cities have an agency.  For example, how many men would go to Tver if the agency wasn't there?  Cities in Ukraine that have fairly well known agencies are the larger cities like Kiev, Kharkov, Odessa, Kherson, etc."  So the vast majority of the ment will go to these cities, even if the woman they are writing to lives in a neighboring city.

Simferopol is s city of 450,000, but because there is no agency there, we don't see a lot of men coming looking for brides.  It doesn't mean there aren't just as many great women here, it's just more difficult as far as arranging travel, accommodations, etc.

Where the best place to go is depends on your level of comfort with travel in the FSU and which methodology you are using.  If you need the services of an agency, you need to go where they have an office.  If you can get by with a private guide, it expands somewhat where you can go and if you're comfortable doing everything on your own, there are no limits.

[wendaaaal]

 Well, I've been to both. I'd kind of echo what Ken C. says. You could call Ukraine "Russia Lite", although Eastern Ukraine, Crimea, and Odessa are less "lite" than the rest of Ukraine. Still, there was so much movement during the Soviet period, any nationalistic labels are blurred more than a bit. You'll meet girls in Ukraine who consider themselves 100% Russian, as both parents came from there. I've met girls in Russia who were proud of their Ukrainian ancestors even if they'd never been there. The point is "what is the point?" . Just go! Don't feel like you're getting "shortchanged" if you can only go to one or the other. With your past experience you have a pretty good idea what you're getting into. Best wishes on your journey!!

[Thor]

I presume geography is very important.  Maybe class (socioeconomic)  is a distinguishing element in both Russia and Ukraine?  There are rich and educated in both countries; there are needy and simple too.

Geography is more important than the men at this board try to tell you. From sunday to Tuesday was I in Kyiv, the capitol of Ukraine. HUGE difference between Kyiv and "my city" Kharkov...Why? Because a LOT more money in Kyiv and the living conditions are much better. Also many more forreign guys in Kyiv than in Eastern Ukraine, MUCH more so the competition about the girls in Kyiv are higher than i in the east....My wife and me saw 10-12 western men with girls in Kyiv. In 10 days in Kharkov did I see 1, ONE. Of course this is important. My wife told me that in Kyiv the boys where much more beautiful than in Kharkov . We also noticed that the Kyiv peoples dress in much better clothes than in Kharkov. I regard Kyiv to be a very beautiful city, but it is in many ways just like any other European city like Paris, London and so on. A lot of money in Kyiv. The eastern city's like Sumy, Kharkov, Poltava and Lugansk are more Sovjetunion city's. In fact in Kharkov are there a big Lenin monument. Listen to jack, he knows this game and have been around for many years..

[groovlstk]

Thor,

I'm sure a Western guy feels like a rock star in a city like Sumy or Kharkov--he'll have little competition and finding a beautiful girl won't be much of a problem.

Sounds great, but as always the devil is in the details, right?

Unless he plans to live in Sumy or Kharkov, eventually he's going to have to bring his girl back to his home city and there she'll be presented with all the temptations you're seeing in Kiev--a very comfortable lifestyle, handsome, well-dressed men, etc. What's to stop her from giving in to these temptations once she arrives?

Eventually, a guy's going to have to deal with the fact that she will be exposed to these elements, so he'd damn well better have something more in his vest other than the fact that he was first in line for her affections.

[KenC]

Excellant point Groov!  It is one thing to dazzle your gal in a small town in Ukraine, but you also got to be able to keep her when you bring her to your city too.  They don't stay naive for long, do they Groov?  I am sure your Mrs. is adapting to the Big Apple by leaps and bounds!
KenC

[neiluk]

Guys

Forgive me if i am mistaken here, but whats wrong with going to poor places to find a wife, after all its the poor countries that supply the MOB business full stop, .. For example if i am going to travel to look for a wife , what would be the point in heading for the wealthy part "In" a poor country. I would say its better to start in the poor places, with vastly more choice, and then use your common sence as to what you think your capable of.

neil

[Daveman]

I would add here, and this is just my opinion though others have stated something similar, that it might be a good idea to match your area with her area.  I don't think a Moscow lady would be happy living in my area, but the lady from Omsk (though it is still a larger city) should adapt well to my suburban area with a little land because she's a weekend dacha gardener.  She'll have to adapt to the lack of public transportation and sidewalks (read learn to drive and get her license quickly so she can get around on her own), but the area itself, aside from warmer winters, is a pretty good match.  But I still wouldn't mind pulling a Scott and living in Crimea for a few years and maybe forever. 

Kharkov is an industrial city inhabited by many factory workers, who do indeed dress differently - which would match well with some of our industrial cities.

Granted, any woman *can* make a change if she loves you.  A woman from Kiev, Moscow, St Pete would probably adapt easier to NYC or the like. A woman from Odessa, Sochi, etc. would probably adapt better to a seaport city.

I don't really believe in the single 'soul mate' concept. I think we can find our perfect matches in many different places, so it's probably better to match both Soul as well as living environment to make the transition a little easier and more fulfilling for her.

As far as the difference between Ukraine and Russia... I have noticed that Ukrainian women are a little more open, not much, but smile more easily earlier, etc, while Russian people tend to be more guarded/serious until they know you better, and THEN loosen up.  I only have 2.5 weeks on the ground in Russia as opposed to 3.5 months in Ukraine (which still isn't much), so this observation could easily be off the mark.

Dave

[Thor]

Thor,

I'm sure a Western guy feels like a rock star in a city like Sumy or Kharkov--he'll have little competition and finding a beautiful girl won't be much of a problem.

Hmm... I have ALWAYS said that it is not easy to find a very beautiful girl in Ukraine. To find such a girl will you need luck and need to prepere before your travel, unless you are very rich . As you know money talks in Ukraine .

Yes the competition when it comes to other forreign men is not the same as in a big city like Kiev. But I never felt like a rock star among the girls in Kharkov. Maybe it was so in the 90`s, but the times has change a lot since then.

Finding what I call "normal" girls is not so hard, and if you look for a girl with a child you can find very beautiful girls like my friend Rich did.

I don't feel that this Eastern Ukraine girls are naive at all. Remember they look at TV a lot and look how life in the west are. They are well educated and smart..

[Thor]

Guys

Forgive me if i am mistaken here, but whats wrong with going to poor places to find a wife, after all its the poor countries that supply the MOB business full stop, .. For example if i am going to travel to look for a wife , what would be the point in heading for the wealthy part "In" a poor country. I would say its better to start in the poor places, with vastly more choice, and then use your common sence as to what you think your capable of.

neil

I totaly agree with you Neil. Beside this so is everything much cheaper in poorer places like eastern Ukraine compered to Kiev or the most exspensive city in the world, Moscow..

[IAmZon]

Contained in some remarks above is the calculated belief that the RICH man is attracting a POOR girl.  And that is ALL that is at work here. 

Such thinking is superficial, dangerous, and border line immoral (maybe a little strong , but not by much).

Obviously it is done.  But God, at what costs to the woman?  what costs to the man? I could not imagine being with a partner who is so obviously compromising as to make statements like the above.  (I guess I have found a pet peeve.)

I know this pursuit is largely comprised of some REAL losers .... and that makes me feel like itching my skin and washing with lava soap.  It makes me understand the negative stereotypes, and why I feel so weird about paying a MOB service.

A cat house seems to have more dignity - at least everyone there is telling the truth.

[Thor]

Contained in some remarks above is the calculated belief that the RICH man is attracting a POOR girl.  And that is ALL that is at work here. 

Some girls in Ukraine are very poor and look at forreign men as a escape out of a miserable life, that is a fact. Some girls live in terrible conditions, why can anyone one jugde them for looking for a better life in the west? Especialy singel mothers have sometimes a hard life. This goes not only with forreign men, but also by rich FSU men.

But my exsperience is that very few FSU girls today is attrackting to forreign men because of only money. It seems to me that the men going to FSU countrys are mostly normal guys with a normal income and that is not regarded as rich guys in FSU. 

[SANDRO43]

Contained in some remarks above is the calculated belief that the RICH man is attracting a POOR girl.  And that is ALL that is at work here. Such thinking is superficial, dangerous, and border line immoral (maybe a little strong , but not by much).

Not trying to bash FSUW or ANY other W, but can your brilliant, penetratingly-philosophical mind explain why a certain profession has always been considered the OLDEST profession on this planet ?

[IAmZon]

The answer to that question, Sandro,  does need a brilliant mind or a deep understanding of human nature.

[groovlstk]

Excellant point Groov!  It is one thing to dazzle your gal in a small town in Ukraine, but you also got to be able to keep her when you bring her to your city too.  They don't stay naive for long, do they Groov?  I am sure your Mrs. is adapting to the Big Apple by leaps and bounds!
KenC

Thanks, Ken. Funny enough I was having this conversation with my wife a few nights ago, and she said that the only real differences between her standard of living in Moscow and in the US is that we tend to eat out a lot more often and she feels safer walking the streets at night as there are a lot less drunk men roaming around. Outside of that she thinks Moscow is a much more beautiful city and don't even get me started on her opinion of American vs. Russian people 

[SANDRO43]

The answer to that question, Sandro,  does need a brilliant mind or a deep understanding of human nature.

Not really I'd say, only a few thousand years of observing repetitive behaviour.

Much, much later, someone invented the term trade, i.e. the exchange of what someone has for something else, more subjectively appreciated/needed, that someone has not .

[ScottinCrimea]

I think this thread is degenerating fast. LOL

The bottom line is that the WM will go to wherever his FSUW is.  How he finds her may dictate that somewhat, but still I hear stories on here of men going to places well off the beaten track that I had never heard of before, let alone considered visiting.

You can find good, beautiful women everywhere and if you are a match it doesn't matter what size of city or village she comes from, or even what country for that matter, the adjustments will be made.

Now having said that, I consider myself very lucky to have found my match in such a nice place as Crimea.  If she had been from the Northern steppes of Siberia I'd probably be living there now.

[groovlstk]

Guys

Forgive me if i am mistaken here, but whats wrong with going to poor places to find a wife, after all its the poor countries that supply the MOB business full stop, .. For example if i am going to travel to look for a wife , what would be the point in heading for the wealthy part "In" a poor country. I would say its better to start in the poor places, with vastly more choice, and then use your common sence as to what you think your capable of.

neil

Neil, there's nothing wrong with it, at least in my opinion, only like everything else a guy needs to be aware of the consequences of his actions. If a guy proposes to a girl from a poor city who's out of his league and doesn't take the time to get to know her, my money's on her trading up the first chance she gets when she arrives in his hometown. When I was dating local FSU women, the pattern I saw with guys who married such girls was that their way of dealing with it was typical of insecure men: they'd  clamp down on her and try to clip her wings when she arrived here. That had the opposite effect of making her all the more eager to find some independence, and things would go south soon after.

Again, if you can't offer a beautiful girl much more than a green card then that's pretty much all she's going to ask of you.

[groovlstk]

Contained in some remarks above is the calculated belief that the RICH man is attracting a POOR girl.  And that is ALL that is at work here.

Rivcardo, you've got guys advising others to specifically seek out women from Eastern Ukraine because the economic disparity gives them a huge advantage.

What else do you think is at work here? Do you think these girls will treat you like rock star when you visit simply because you're intrinsically better than the local guys?

Get on a plane and visit one of these cities, see for yourself the hardscrabble existence most people have and the appreciation this gives them for day-to-day life. Above all, be honest with yourself. Knowing this will help you avoid falling for a woman who tells you everything you want to hear and give you the patience to wait for one who wants to be with you for reasons other than what you can offer her through your wallet.

[IAmZon]

Groov, If there isn't more at work here, then certainly there should be.

Financial security is an element of a profile for a man and a women, but not the whole profile.  Infact, if just taken on the single dimension of rich old fart / pretty young thing, then the term Mail Order Bride applies perfectly.  I think most members dislike the reference because it diminishes all the other things at work in relationships.

- Financially Stability (even considerable financial ability);
- Values and Character (do you want children / would you be a good father);
- Curiosity (clever; educated; worldly);
- Strong and Able man (Integrity, Consistency; "worthy");  and
- fashion sense / physical attraction
all should be things a man ought be able to offer to compete for the lady of his dreams.

I believe strongly that if a guy seeks a woman for beauty and youth alone ... a caliber of woman that is absolutely NOT available to him in his home land, he is doing a disservice to himself and to his mate.  How could any sober mind reach a different conclusion?

I don't think I am intrinsically better than men in Kiev, or Moscow any more than I think I am better than men in Tampa or Atlanta.  I am who I am.  I know what I like and what my norms are.  Sometimes I enjoy the attention of a women of a higher caliber than my norm.  I would not let her know that!  I call that a lucky day:)

But I think your comment is well intended.  Don't worry, I ain't gonna fall in love with an allusion - promise.  (I likely would have, however, if I shot off and traveled to the FSU 3 or 4 months ago.  RWD and time has helped me a great deal)





 

[Rvrwind]

I don't feel that this Eastern Ukraine girls are naive at all. Remember they look at TV a lot and look how life in the west are.

If your TV portrays anything like Russian TV there is no comparison. Dallas & Knots Landing really are a fantasy for most & Beavis & Butthead & the Simpsons, well there's some educational material for you.
No, I'd have to say if their making judgments about life in the West based on TV they are way off base!

[mervin]

Well, having been to both Ukraine and Russia I prefer Ukraine. Though I can't say it was difficult finding good women in either country. In Ukraine it was actually like shooting fish in a barrel. The country you're going to has nothing to do with it, your age and the age of the girls you're going for have everything to do with it. No offense to some of you older guys, but those of you who are over 35 are going to have to meet 3 times as many ladies to find the few for whom there is a mutual interest than do the guys who are younger.  Why? Because for some reason the older guys seem to think they should be going for girls in their 20's as well.

When I was an undergraduate I studied anthropology and during the last year of my studies I was required attend an ethnography field school and complete a research project before I would be awarded my degree. Well, for the record I wanted to go to archeology school, but I missed the boat. Be that as it may, the one thing I learned in this incredibly boring school was that an anthropologist should always ask questions and continue to interview lots of people until the day comes when he or she (the anthropologist) can predict the answers that will be spoken by the interviewee. In other words, when you start to hear the same thing, over and over again from different sources, in different cities, at different times, than you know you've discovered something.   

How many agencies did I work with when I was there? About 10. How many girls did I meet when I was in Ukraine? More than 30, easy. How many of these girls sat at the other end of the table who spoke unfavorably about the letters they get from 40 or 50 year old men? ALL of them. How old were these girls? 23-30. With that said however, there seems to be some people around who've made those "large age gap" relationships work, so it's good to know there are success stories.

And for the record, I was in Ukraine with Jack this past May and I had a good time.

[Bruce]

Mervin, older guys marrying girls 10 plus more in age tend to stay married whilst their younger cousins tend to divorce sooner.  I liked Kharkov for available pretty women.  Kiev is a great city but lower odds finding your better half.  Russia is still Russia and character is key.  More likely to find higher character girls in Russia.  Eastern Ukraine mostly ethnic Russians anyway.  I have never been there but I would think Belarus would have the highest percentage of available pretty women.  Poland would be a good place for a pretty girl too.  Quality agencies in a city would sway me if I were in the game. 

[mervin]

I think you are probably right about Belarus and in some places in Russia too. But to be honest with you Bruce, Ukraine is still a great place too, even in the well traveled cities. Almost none of the girls I met with in Kharkov had met many met at all, and Kharkov is supposed to be a fairly well traveled to city. In Lugansk, I was either the first or second man any of the girls had met. At least this is what they were telling me. I'm not in a position to think they were being dishonest so I believed them.  I agree, character is key for sure.

I'm not coming into this discussion with a statistical analysis. There is no doubt that many decent older guys have made it work with younger girls. But by in large I think it's a lot of work for people to be trying to pick a country in which they stand the best chance to find a young, 20 something girl when the relationship is a mismatch from the start.

By the way, I agree with you about Kharkov! It's a great city!

Eastern UA is a great place to go. Everything Jack says about Lugansk is true. I was there for 7 days and I can vouch for it first hand.

Why am I mentioning the age factor? Well, because I was in Ukraine with a group of men, all of whom were at least 10 years older than I was. In some cases we were going after the same girls. I'm 31 for the record. I had a lot easier time finding girls who were interested in me than did the other guys, and the experience taught me something. First and foremost, it's better and easier to be younger. Second of all, it's not always a good idea for older men to focus on young girls.

I respect differing opinions of course  

[Muj]

How many agencies did I work with when I was there? About 10. How many girls did I meet when I was in Ukraine? More than 30, easy. How many of these girls sat at the other end of the table who spoke unfavorably about the letters they get from 40 or 50 year old men? ALL of them. How old were these girls? 23-30. With that said however, there seems to be some people around who've made those "large age gap" relationships work, so it's good to know there are success stories.

And for the record, I was in Ukraine with Jack this past May and I had a good time.

Mervin,

Educated in ethnography but you seem to overlook the obvious chauvinistically.  Women uninterested in men under 40 would certainly not talk to you.  If they were also interested in men over 40 they may not even tell you.  Many UA women of all age groups state they did not like men under 40.  I met my wonderful wife and never dated even close to 30 women.  Over 30 seems somewhat high.  Are you seeking a serious relationship? 

[Mir]

Some young women may not like any attention from older men
Some may not have liked the type of older men that sent them letters
I am sure there are women who don't think age is that important
And I think there are some women who prefer older men (for whatever reasons)

If there is a 50 year old Western man, who has two divorces under his belt, has a balding head and a paunch, not too bright and has no social skills to attract any woman in the West. If he thinks that he can find a pretty young woman in FSU the he is mistaken.
Then there are men of the same age who have kept themselves fit, who are witty and intelligent, mostly successful in their carears. They are confident to approach a woman regardless of her age and beauty.
These men have a good chance of finding a much younger and pretty woman in FSU. In many cases such men will be considered a better catch then the 20 something boys who are meeting many women at the same time.
However I doubt such men will be found on marriage tours. I think they will use a more subtle and privet way of approaching women.